Water Baptism, is that ENOUGH?

[turnorburn]

Gibberish, its like paying a visit to the doctor, if your don't believe your diagnosis for cancer "sin" backed by 12 physicians truth, then simply don't go. Or simply take my advice and read your bibles and mean it ing: after you wake up of course.

Thanks,
turnorburn

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Gibberish...

I can always count on you for an informed response.

 

[marksman]

I have worked in the Catholic Education system and learnt enough to know that what the scripture says doesn't carry much weight in Catholic teaching. I have heard enough heresy from the catholics I worked with, so I don't consider any of their pontifications as having any authority or much weight, especially when they fabricate ideas to bolster their apostate form of religion and the power of the clergy over the laity which is not in scripture.

And please don't tell me that is not the case as I have EXPERIENCED it first hand.

 

[francisdesales]

I have worked in the Catholic Education system and learnt enough to know that what the scripture says doesn't carry much weight in Catholic teaching. I have heard enough heresy from the catholics I worked with, so I don't consider any of their pontifications as having any authority or much weight, especially when they fabricate ideas to bolster their apostate form of religion and the power of the clergy over the laity which is not in scripture.

And please don't tell me that is not the case as I have EXPERIENCED it first hand.

Try to remember something...

There is a difference between the Magesterium, the OFFICIAL Catholic teaching "system", and the "Catholic Education system", which is often filled with people who are not even Catholic. I know because my wife works with several Protestants at a Catholic grade school and my daughter has Protestant professors at her Catholic High School...

Clearly, even Catholic teachers at these schools are not "official". As an RCIA teacher, I see they are not any less susceptible to preaching an agenda. If you want to find how much weight the Scriptures carry, perhaps you should consult Catholic theologians or read encyclicals, not people who teach third graders from a questionable textbook with very little religious education training.

Regards

 

[marksman]

If you want to find how much weight the Scriptures carry, perhaps you should consult Catholic theologians or read encyclicals, not people who teach third graders from a questionable textbook with very little religious education training.

Why would anyone like me who has a Baptist and Brethren background, a theological degree from a conservative theological college and three University degrees want to consult Catholic theologians for the truth when the who church is steeped in man made tradition not scripture.

You can say all you want about what catholic theologians say. According to scripture it is what you do that counts (by their fruits you will know them). Apart from the fact that catholic catholic teachers are not going to be too pleased at your arrogance in saying that what they believe isn't worth the paper it is written on, especially as some of them show very clearly that their catholic faith is first and last in their lives, to the point of telling lies to back up false accusations by the priest, which I have seen happen. :crazyeyes:

 

[dadof10]

dad,

I can only answer like this:

While I recognize that MANY beieve the word Baptism MEANS 'water Baptism', i do NOT.

MEC,

Well, baseball and Cub Scouts are over, as is school, so I finally have time to respond. Only a month late. :

To believe that the "baptism" in 1PT:3 is not "water baptism" is to deny the plain words of Scripture. It is blatantly obvious to anyone even casually reading these verses without a traditional Protestant bias that this can only refer to water baptism.

"For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water.

Again...THROUGH WATER

The very next verse:

Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you...

Peter could not have been more clear.

Could you please show me in Scripture where water baptism is called "symbolic"?

 

[dadof10]

If you want to find how much weight the Scriptures carry, perhaps you should consult Catholic theologians or read encyclicals, not people who teach third graders from a questionable textbook with very little religious education training.

Why would anyone like me who has a Baptist and Brethren background, a theological degree from a conservative theological college and three University degrees want to consult Catholic theologians for the truth when the who church is steeped in man made tradition not scripture.

You can say all you want about what catholic theologians say. According to scripture it is what you do that counts (by their fruits you will know them). Apart from the fact that catholic catholic teachers are not going to be too pleased at your arrogance in saying that what they believe isn't worth the paper it is written on, especially as some of them show very clearly that their catholic faith is first and last in their lives, to the point of telling lies to back up false accusations by the priest, which I have seen happen. :crazyeyes:

Marksman,

You misunderstand.

I think what Francis is saying is that if you want to find out how important Scripture is to the Catholic Church, (the Magisterum) you should go to official Catholic sources, not well-meaning, though under-educated RE teachers. Otherwise you are kicking a strawdog, and no matter how many degrees you possess, you cannot make him real. :P

 

[marksman]

I think what Francis is saying is that if you want to find out how important Scripture is to the Catholic Church, (the Magisterum) you should go to official Catholic sources, not well-meaning, though under-educated RE teachers. Otherwise you are kicking a strawdog, and no matter how many degrees you possess, you cannot make him real.

I am sure Francis can speak for himself.

 

[dadof10]

I think what Francis is saying is that if you want to find out how important Scripture is to the Catholic Church, (the Magisterum) you should go to official Catholic sources, not well-meaning, though under-educated RE teachers. Otherwise you are kicking a strawdog, and no matter how many degrees you possess, you cannot make him real.

I am sure Francis can speak for himself.

And I'm sure he will. This sort of mis-understanding happens a lot on forums concerning Catholic teaching. It's pretty common for someone to "hear" from a Pastor or friend (or RE teacher) a "Catholic doctrine" that is not what the official Church teaches then post it and attack it. Kind of like this:

"I have worked in the Catholic Education system and learnt enough to know that what the scripture says doesn't carry much weight in Catholic teaching. I have heard enough heresy from the catholics I worked with, so I don't consider any of their pontifications as having any authority or much weight, especially when they fabricate ideas to bolster their apostate form of religion and the power of the clergy over the laity which is not in scripture."

If you're going to post a polemical rant like this, it would be helpful to at least cite Catholic sources to back it up.

 

[marksman]

(the Magisterum)

As the magisterum is not in scripture, I really have no interest in consulting it for the truth. The best souce I find is the scriptures itself as it is the best commentary on itself.

 

[marksman]

To hear the Church IS to follow Christ. Christ is my Lord and Savior - the Son of the Living God, and by obeying the Church HE ESTABLISHED, I obey HIM.

Where does it say in scrpture that we are to obey the church? If you have to obey the church he established you will have to ditch the RC church because that was established by man not God.

 

[marksman]

The early Church Fathers, of course, agreed. As the following quotes illustrate, Christians have from the beginning recognized that the correct form of baptism requires one to baptize "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

Not according to scripture. From the beginning they baptised in the name of Jesus which the verses I quoted make obvious except to those who do not want to know the truth. I don't know what they teach you in the RC church, but I was taught that you never base a doctrine on one verse of scripture which is what you are doing as there is ONLY ONE verse that says to baptise in the titles of the trinity. You may have noticed that father, son and holy spirit are not names they are titles, at least they are in the country I live in. A bit like saying "have you met my friend, his name is father."

 

[marksman]

especially when they fabricate ideas to bolster their apostate form of religion and the power of the clergy over the laity which is not in scripture."

If you're going to post a polemical rant like this, it would be helpful to at least cite Catholic sources to back it up.

I have gone one better in citing personal experience as I watched a catholic priest take great delight in destroying the lives of those who did not bow and scrape and obey his every word. You are in denial if you can't accept that what you do speaks louder than what you say.

A good example is Robert Mugabe who says he is a catholic. If he is, then I don't want anything to do with the catholic church because I am not interested in supporting a system that allows its members to kill, torture and enslave others.

And please don't say that the church doesn't approve because as yet I haven't seen the church deny the fact that he is a catholic.

 

[dadof10]

(the Magisterum)

As the magisterum is not in scripture, I really have no interest in consulting it for the truth. The best souce I find is the scriptures itself as it is the best commentary on itself.

Try to keep up.

I'm not asking you to consult the Magisterium for "the truth", but to find out what the Catholic Church actually teaches.

 

[dadof10]

I have gone one better in citing personal experience as I watched a catholic priest take great delight in destroying the lives of those who did not bow and scrape and obey his every word. You are in denial if you can't accept that what you do speaks louder than what you say.

Antecdotal evidence is not "one better". I'm sorry to hear that you ran into a bad priest. That happens, but it is FAR from the norm.

If you carry the "one bad apple spoils the whole bunch" mentality to it's logical conclusion, you would wind up with no religion whatsoever. You certainly wouldn't be Christian. After all, Jesus was concieved out of wedlock, chose a tax collector as a disciple, hung around with prostitutes, spoke to Samaritians, one of His best friends was a prostitute herself, one of His chosen 12 stole from Him, betrayed Him then commited suicide. From a 1st century Jewish perspective, why would you follow such a Man? What He and His Apostles did "speaks louder" than what they say, right?

A good example is Robert Mugabe who says he is a catholic. If he is, then I don't want anything to do with the catholic church because I am not interested in supporting a system that allows its members to kill, torture and enslave others.

And please don't say that the church doesn't approve because as yet I haven't seen the church deny the fact that he is a catholic.

Allows its MEMBERS??? Tell me, what can the Church do to stop Mugabe from killing and torturing? Excommunicate him??? LOL. That should do it. People like him don't even listen to their own consciences, let alone Church teaching. Why don't you show me from Catholic Church teaching where killing, torture and enslavement are condoned. Silence doesn't mean permission.

What are you trying to get at here? That there are sinners within the Catholic Church? Guilty. As is your Pastor and every person in the pews of your church and mine. Does your church teach that it's OK to sin? If not, is it "allowing it's members" to sin?

 

[Pogo]

There are many different baptisms mentioned in the NT.

According to the research I have done on this subject, I find that one passage, more than any of the others, sheds the most light on this subject.

Matthew 28:19-20 KJV
(19) Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
(20) Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

This passage, also known as The Great Commission, was given by Jesus to His apostles, and through them, to us.

WE are to go forth, teaching everyone, and BAPTIZING them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

As far as I have been able to tell, the only way that one person can possibly baptize another person, would have to be with WATER.

And, according to those scriptural examples which contain the most detail about the baptism procedure itself, the baptisms of Jesus, Paul, the Ethiopian eunuch, etc., ALL indicate the use of WATER, and not just the sprinkling of water, but one's IMMERSION into WATER.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Strong's tells me that 'baptise' is the Greek word for 'immerse'.

Therefore, I see the scriptures requiring one's IMMERSION into WATER as the only proper baptism. Then, the other baptisms, fire, Holy Ghost, etc., can/will take place.

I do hope, and pray, that I am wrong about this, and that water is not necessary for baptism, but being spiritually conservative, I did not risk it myself.

May God bless us all,

Pogo

 

[MarkT]

It's not just water. You have to confess your sins. There are some churches that do things that are very good. I would say to my Protestant brothers that they should go to a Catholic church and confess their sins. Hey. We're all brothers. I'm sure my Catholic brothers would approve this message.

 

[marksman]

Antecdotal evidence is not "one better". I'm sorry to hear that you ran into a bad priest. That happens, but it is FAR from the norm.

Yeah, I have heard that quite a few times. Mainly to excuse the thousands of priests who sexually molest boys, particularly in the USA, although not exclusively. We have our fair share of them here.

 

[marksman]

I think what Francis is saying is that if you want to find out how important Scripture is to the Catholic Church, (the Magisterum) you should go to official Catholic sources,

I'm not asking you to consult the Magisterium for "the truth", but to find out what the Catholic Church actually teaches.

In the first quote you said that the catholic chhurch is the magisterum. Then you asked me not to consult the magisterium, I should consult the catholic church.

If the catholic church is the magisterium, then consulting them is consulting the catholic church.

 

[marksman]

What are you trying to get at here? That there are sinners within the Catholic Church? Guilty. As is your Pastor and every person in the pews of your church and mine. Does your church teach that it's OK to sin? If not, is it "allowing it's members" to sin?"

You are very good at avoiding the issue and obfuscating with irrelevant responses and avoiding the issues that do not support your theories.

I will make it clear in case you have not worked it out. I don't support catholic doctrine, I don't support Baptist doctrine, I don't support Protestant doctrine as I don't need to because all I need to live a life of faith is recorded in scripture. If anything, no matter who proposes it is not backed up by scripture and baptism in the trinitarian names is not because there is only one verse in total and no doctrine is ever based on one verse of scripture and too many of the RC doctrines are not based on any scripture as are some protestant ones, so you can argue all you want and it will fall on deaf ears unless the scriptures support you in its overal revelation.

If you want another example. priests are not a NT revelation. The priesthood of all believers is so you don't need a clergy class that dresses up like a woman and tells everyone what they can do.