We are not saved by faith alone as Martin Luther inferred..... here is the Biblical evidence

[Rajesh Sahu]

How about rereading this whole thread instead of deflecting from the truth. Yes all Arminianism is ultimately Pelagian at heart. And yes monergism is the only correct view of soteriology biblically. Synergism is unbiblical

MCoop, please say that " synergism is unbiblical " is YOUR view or opinion. To me that's a totally wrong statement =====synergism is unbiblical . In my opinion, Bible is all about partnering Christ. he is the wine we are the branches. So please request you not to make emphatic statements. Thank you

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Mcoop
I'm not feeling well and cannot write too much.
Read what atpollard and OzSpen have replied to you.
That is precisely my belief.
Works do not save us.
We do good deeds because we are saved.

Hope and pray that you feel better soon wondering

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

As has been pointed out Scripturally several times and by several people in this thread: Salvation by Grace through faith in Him, did not originate with Luther or Paul but rather Him (Jesus)



Seeking after Him and asking Him and knocking on His gate IS the good works and the Father’s will.

Seeking salvation by any other works, other than His work, is self-seeking. And neither Luther nor Paul were the first to point out just how narrow is the gate of salvation by Grace through faith IN HIM.

Chessman if Salvation is by grace alone through Faith alone why is Jesus threatening condemnation to many believers here ? Isnt it because many did not do the will of God? Also, please stop emphatically pointing out what God's Will is. It's not easy to know IMO. You didn't point out Christ's express commandment to all believers to LOVE ALL. Maybe that's God will. Please, stop making emphatic statements what Bible means. Say it's your opinion. I am saying this because in my opinion nowhere is it written in express terms what God's will is for a person. Certainly, after studying the Word diligently, we can understand His expectations. But what precisely is His will---- nobody can really pinpoint. I'm doing a study on knowing God's will. Different Bible teachers have different opinions about that

 

[MCoop]

MCoop, please say that " synergism is unbiblical " is YOUR view or opinion. To me that's a totally wrong statement =====synergism is unbiblical . In my opinion, Bible is all about partnering Christ. he is the wine we are the branches. So please request you not to make emphatic statements. Thank you

. Synergistic soteriology is unbiblical. Your opinion nor mine means nothing. The truth is that justification before God is monergistic. All of grace. All conditioned in Christ and His merits of righteousness alone. And that received by faith alone. Apart from any works from a believer

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Mcoop
I'm not feeling well and cannot write too much.
Read what atpollard and OzSpen have replied to you.
That is precisely my belief.
Works do not save us.
We do good deeds because we are saved.

I'm told time and again ( by my Church too--where I stopped going) that we do good works because we are saved. I have seen many believers don't do that too----- good deeds. The same pride ego anger selfishness may linger. Would that mean they were never saved in the first place? Perhaps never had saving faith? I've seen extremely humble Christians, kind gentle, loving compassionate, charitable, and And I have seen some haughty, prejudiced and angry and mean ones as well. How were they saved-----their deeds do not reflect their salvation? Just asking a question ... please answer at leisure when you feel better.

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

. Synergistic soteriology is unbiblical. Your opinion nor mine means nothing. The truth is that justification before God is monergistic. All of grace. All conditioned in Christ and His merits of righteousness alone. And that received by faith alone. Apart from any works from a believer

Again that's what you believe. Not me. According to my inference UNLESS we do God's will over our will, and pick up our Cross and deny ourselves daily, and Follow the Lord we are not saved. That would include Loving all and judging none. I believe I'm being Biblically sound-- my interpretation sir. ( Matthew 7:18-26) Christ kept reminding he had come to do the Will of the Father. and he even calls doing God's will His food.
John 4:34 "My food," said Jesus, "is to do the will of him who sent me

 

[Justicewolf]

Are you still riding the belt loop of many synergist on this thread? Or are you gonna give input on why you believe the OP to be truth to you?

I hope this isn't a violation. Since you have no proof of your statement against Arminianism in post 293, I'd hope you would reconsider being the Terms of Service state as I read them that you cannot state those remarks. (ToS 2.4)

 

[MCoop]

Again that's what you believe. Not me. According to my inference UNLESS we do God's will over our will, and pick up our Cross and deny ourselves daily, and Follow the Lord we are not saved. That would include Loving all and judging none. I believe I'm being Biblically sound-- my interpretation sir. ( Matthew 7:18-26) Christ kept reminding he had come to do the Will of the Father. and he even calls doing God's will His food.
John 4:34 "My food," said Jesus, "is to do the will of him who sent me

I know you don’t believe salvation is completely conditioned in Christ alone, apart from a believers works. Your OP proves that. Just say my works in cooperation saves me

 

[MCoop]

I hope this isn't a violation. Since you have no proof of your statement against Arminianism in post 293, I'd hope you would reconsider being the Terms of Service state as I read them that you cannot state those remarks. (ToS 2.4)

Is that a threat lol?! Violation ok.. as you have obviously proved that Arminianism isn’t pelagianism. Quit deflecting from the topic at hand

 

[brujaq]

Luke 10:38-42

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Again that's what you believe. Not me. According to my inference UNLESS we do God's will over our will, and pick up our Cross and deny ourselves daily, and Follow the Lord we are not saved. That would include Loving all and judging none. I believe I'm being Biblically sound-- my interpretation sir. ( Matthew 7:18-26) Christ kept reminding he had come to do the Will of the Father. and he even calls doing God's will His food.
John 4:34 "My food," said Jesus, "is to do the will of him who sent me

In my opinion Salvation doctrine "by Grace alone through Faith alone in Christ alone" is severely flawed. because it conveniently takes away our responsibility to be obedient to the point of death. God may as well have made Robots and saved them--- since it requires no more than faith in Christ as savior. Demons also believed in Christ as the son of God. But chose the path of evil.
In my opinion, if salvation is of such paramount importance to a believer this then is what is going to be needed for being Saved
1) A repentant faith in the Lord Jesus as messiah/savior and Lord
2) Obedience---- picking up our cross daily, denying the flesh daily and following the Lord, doing God's will over our will, and loving all hating none, judging none.
3) all believers will have to go through judgment --- where our WORKS will be tested with Fire ........ and only those will be saved whose name is written in the Lamb's book of Life

2 Corinthians 5:10 ►
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.
-
Revelation 21:27 ►
Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Thus, my dear friends, salvation is not as easy as some Churches would like to assure ( by grace through faith). In my opinion, it comes in three parts as cited above-- not just one, by grace through faith.
The other big concern I have is why are Christians not focusing on following the Lord rather than assure salvation to each other? Didn't Christ caution us against that in Matthew 16:25
"For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will find it."

 

[MCoop]

In my opinion Salvation doctrine "by Grace alone through Faith alone in Christ alone" is severely flawed. because it conveniently takes away our responsibility to be obedient to the point of death. God may as well have made Robots and saved them--- since it requires no more than faith in Christ as savior. Demons also believed in Christ as the son of God. But chose the path of evil.
In my opinion, if salvation is of such paramount importance to a believer this then is what is going to be needed for being Saved
1) A repentant faith in the Lord Jesus as messiah/savior and Lord
2) Obedience---- picking up our cross daily, denying the flesh daily and following the Lord, doing God's will over our will, and loving all hating none, judging none.
3) all believers will have to go through judgment --- where our WORKS will be tested with Fire ........ and only those will be saved whose name is written in the Lamb's book of Life

2 Corinthians 5:10 ►
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.
-
Revelation 21:27 ►
Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Thus, my dear friends, salvation is not as easy as some Churches would like to assure ( by grace through faith). In my opinion, it comes in three parts as cited above-- not just one, by grace through faith.
The other big concern I have is why are Christians not focusing on following the Lord rather than assure salvation to each other? Didn't Christ caution us against that in Matthew 16:25
"For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will find it."

Your opinion gives you that fallacious idea. Have you proven from my post or what Luther believes, that there is no responsibility to be obedient from a believer? No you haven’t.. just emotionally driven post that doesn’t prove anything you posted. Just say my works in the end ultimately justifies me before God. Instead of accusing Luther of being antinomian

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Your opinion gives you that fallacious idea. Have you proven from my post or what Luther believes, that there is no responsibility to be obedient from a believer? No you haven’t.. just emotionally driven post that doesn’t prove anything you posted. Just say my works in the end ultimately justifies me before God. Instead of accusing Luther of being antinomian

In my above-concerned post, Luther is nowhere in the picture. please do not try to deflect attention on Luther. Answer my post with BIBLICAL verses and not your opinions. Else I will be constrained to believe you are a highly opinionated individual. I have provided Biblical evidence of the three-layered process of salvation against the one which typically Churches believe and teach ( saved by grace through faith doctrine). So please MCoop if you think I'm wrong please provide biblical evidence against it. NOT your opinions or Martin Luther's or anyone else's theology or interpretation. I have provided evidence and I NEED evidence to prove otherwise. Else I'm severely inclined to believe that many Churches are in great error if they are teaching doctrine of salvation "by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone"

 

[MCoop]

In my above-concerned post, Luther is nowhere in the picture. please do not try to deflect attention on Luther. Answer my post with BIBLICAL verses and not your opinions. Else I will be constrained to believe you are a highly opinionated individual. I have provided Biblical evidence of the three-layered process of salvation against the one which typically Churches believe and teach ( saved by grace through faith doctrine). So please MCoop if you think I'm wrong please provide biblical evidence against it. NOT your opinions or Martin Luther's or anyone else's theology or interpretation. I have provided evidence and I NEED evidence to prove otherwise. Else I'm severely inclined to believe that many Churches are in great error if they are teaching doctrine of salvation "by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone"

Your OP was falsely accusing Luther of being antinomian, just to prove ones works justifies or saves in cooperation with Christ. So it’s very relevant that Luther is brought up. Reread your thread you started. There is biblical proof throughout this thread that your fallacious opinion is heretical. And I know you aren’t ignorant of the scripture that proves salvation by grace alone in Christ alone through faith alone. You just don’t believe them. And why you posted the original post. You certainly haven’t given any biblical evidence that a sinners works plays any role as the grounds for justification. Simply because there is none. Just your emotional opinion on antinomians. Like I said, just say your works are the grounds for your salvation in cooperation. Instead of skirting around the issue

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Your OP was falsely accusing Luther of being antinomian, just to prove ones works justifies or saves in cooperation with Christ. So it’s very relevant that Luther is brought up. Reread your thread you started. There is biblical proof throughout this thread that your fallacious opinion is heretical. And I know you aren’t ignorant of the scripture that proves salvation by grace alone in Christ alone through faith alone. You just don’t believe them. And why you posted the original post. You certainly haven’t given any biblical evidence that a sinners works plays any role as the grounds for justification. Simply because there is none. Just your emotional opinion on antinomians. Like I said, just say your works are the grounds for your salvation in cooperation. Instead skirting around the issue

I see apart from calling my evidence HERESY you have failed to answer my important question: Can you prove the three-layered doctrine of Salvation which I have provided in my post above is Biblically unsound or incorrect? pls give verses to support your theory

 

[atpollard]

If it is OK with you, I'd prefer to skip over the commentary on Luther and focus directly on the scripture presented in the OP:

Matthew 7: 18-20.
18 “A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.
19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

This doesn't seem all that complicated of a verse to me. Sinners commit sins and the saved serve God. So saved people (good trees) will do the things that God commands (bear good fruit), and unsaved people (bad trees) cannot do the things that please God, because they are busy doing all of the things that oppose the will of God.

This seems sort of self-evident. So what does this have to do with sotierology (the process by which God transforms sinners into saints)? I see nothing in these verses on that topic at all. Merely blunt statements about the fundamental difference between the saved and the unsaved.

Matthew 7: 21-23

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’
23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

"I never knew you" (Matthew 7:23) seems to be the money verse in that whole exchange. How can someone that Jesus NEVER KNEW be saved. There is no salvation apart from Jesus and his death on the cross and ressurection from the tomb. No Calvinist or Wesleyan or Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox or any of the orthodox flavors of Protestantism that I am familiar with believe in a salvation apart from Christ. By Jesus' statement of supreme fiat, these people who will not enter heaven in Matthew 7:21-23 were and are always unsaved. How do they apply to sotierology?

Matthew 7: 24-26

24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock.
25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock.
26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand.

Is there any evidence that someone can be saved by "hearing" Jesus' words but not doing them? Were the "brood of vipers" saved when they heard and objected? I think your verse from James does a great job of dealing with this exact situation. James says they have a "dead faith" that cannot save them. That makes those who hear, but do not do unsaved.

James 2: 14-17

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead."

This is the key. There are two types of faith. One type of faith the person hears, repents, and follows. Then there are the devils who believe that Jesus is the Christ and tremble in fear. If justification does not lead to sanctification, then Scriptire warns us over and over to be very worried about our so-called justification.

If you "graft" a branch on the TRUE VINE and it begins to bear fruit, the graft was probably successful. If you "graft" a branch on the TRUE VINE and it continues to wither and die and bears no fruit, then maybe you want to double check that it was grafted to the right VINE.

Matthew 22:37-40

37 And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38 This is the great and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 40 On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”

When Adam and Eve had only two children, one killed the other. People are incapable of obeying those two simple commands in our fallen state. Only AFTER sanctification is it possible.

Ezekiel 36:25-27 NASB
25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.

God makes the first move and empowers us to obey.

Ephesians 2:1-10 NASB
1 And you [fn]were dead [fn]in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the [fn]course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, [fn]indulging the desires of the flesh and of the [fn]mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead [fn]in our transgressions, made us alive together [fn]with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and [fn]that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

We were dead, God makes the first move, then we are empowered to do good works.

 

[Papa Zoom]

If it is OK with you, I'd prefer to skip over the commentary on Luther and focus directly on the scripture presented in the OP:

This doesn't seem all that complicated of a verse to me. Sinners commit sins and the saved serve God. So saved people (good trees) will do the things that God commands (bear good fruit), and unsaved people (bad trees) cannot do the things that please God, because they are busy doing all of the things that oppose the will of God.

This seems sort of self-evident. So what does this have to do with sotierology (the process by which God transforms sinners into saints)? I see nothing in these verses on that topic at all. Merely blunt statements about the fundamental difference between the saved and the unsaved.


"I never knew you" (Matthew 7:23) seems to be the money verse in that whole exchange. How can someone that Jesus NEVER KNEW be saved. There is no salvation apart from Jesus and his death on the cross and ressurection from the tomb. No Calvinist or Wesleyan or Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox or any of the orthodox flavors of Protestantism that I am familiar with believe in a salvation apart from Christ. By Jesus' statement of supreme fiat, these people who will not enter heaven in Matthew 7:21-23 were and are always unsaved. How do they apply to sotierology?


Is there any evidence that someone can be saved by "hearing" Jesus' words but not doing them? Were the "brood of vipers" saved when they heard and objected? I think your verse from James does a great job of dealing with this exact situation. James says they have a "dead faith" that cannot save them. That makes those who hear, but do not do unsaved.


This is the key. There are two types of faith. One type of faith the person hears, repents, and follows. Then there are the devils who believe that Jesus is the Christ and tremble in fear. If justification does not lead to sanctification, then Scriptire warns us over and over to be very worried about our so-called justification.

If you "graft" a branch on the TRUE VINE and it begins to bear fruit, the graft was probably successful. If you "graft" a branch on the TRUE VINE and it continues to wither and die and bears no fruit, then maybe you want to double check that it was grafted to the right VINE.



When Adam and Eve had only two children, one killed the other. People are incapable of obeying those two simple commands in our fallen state. Only AFTER sanctification is it possible.

Ezekiel 36:25-27 NASB
25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.

God makes the first move and empowers us to obey.

Ephesians 2:1-10 NASB
1 And you [fn]were dead [fn]in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the [fn]course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, [fn]indulging the desires of the flesh and of the [fn]mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead [fn]in our transgressions, made us alive together [fn]with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and [fn]that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

We were dead, God makes the first move, then we are empowered to do good works.

Best argument of the thread. Totally nails shut the argument. IMHO. Game. Set. Match.

 

[OzSpen]

No the onus is on you to prove your opinion that Arminianism isn’t in essence pelagian. The fact remains that all forms of Arminianism are synergistic and centers around man. And is why the OP believes what he believes. Besides the smokescreen of the false teaching of “prevenient grace”, Arminianism is no different than Pelagianism

The onus is on you as you are the one who declared, 'Yes all Arminianism is ultimately Pelagian at heart'.

You need to prove it now. I didn't state that Arminianism is Pelagian. You did. Now we need your proof of your statement that associates Arminianism with Pelagianism.

Oz

 

[Mike]

I am giving this discussion a small breather for a day or two so that the participants can collect themselves. Too many good discussions get driven into the mud, reduced to back and forth accusations of others. No one answers questions, because both sides are digging their heals in the ground saying the onus is on the other guy/gal to prove what s/he said.

When this opens up again, I urge everyone to support their claims and refute others with scripture. Those who don't will put themselves at risk of being removed or getting the discussion shut down for good.