We are not saved by faith alone as Martin Luther inferred..... here is the Biblical evidence

[Cygnus]

This reminds me that we should provide thoughtful responses to the discussion, lest we get removed from said discussion for not being thoughtful at all. I shouldn't have to remind the players here that it is incumbent of everyone to support their positions with scripture; not just force others to come up with it to support theirs.

Folks, we have our ToS and our Rules for Posting in the Theology Forum. Don't try and win the argument with thoughtless quips. Keep the unique rules of the Theology Forum in mind which are in place so that scripture trumps opinion.

I understand where you're coming from...but, and there is a but....the poster said "John said that, not Jesus."....Sorry, but NEXT seemed to work for me at that time. John 3:16 is even red in my bible....what can I say?

 

[Cygnus]

Why would Jesus Himself say that we will be judged by our works?

Which judgement? White Throne or Bema Seat of Christ?

 

[Roro1972]

Isaiah 64:6 NASB "For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy (H5708) garment;

Strong's H5708
ʻêd, ayd; from an unused root meaning to set a period (compare H5710, H5749); the menstrual flux (as periodical); by implication (in plural) soiling:—filthy.

Online Dictionary of Biblical Usage:
I. menstruation

A. filthy rag, stained garment (fig. of best deeds of guilty people)​

A.R. Fausset Commentary
6. unclean thing--legally unclean, as a leper. True of Israel, everywhere now cut off by unbelief and by God's judgments from the congregation of the saints.
righteousness--plural, "uncleanness" extended to every particular act of theirs, even to their prayers and praises. True of the best doings of the unregenerate ( Phl 3:6-8 Tts 1:15 Hbr 11:6 ).
filthy rags--literally, a "menstruous rag" ( Lev 15:33 20:18 Lam 1:17 ).
fade. . . leaf-- ( Psa 90:5, 6 ).


So the point in Isaiah is not that our best isn't quite good enough. We are like 'unclean lepers' before a Holy God and the very BEST of our gifts to Him are like dirty, menstrual cloths. The modern equivalent of a soiled menstrual rag is a "used tampon".

Sort of puts things in perspective, don't it.

Thanks atpollard for this information. I did not know this. Its good to know smart people.

 

[Cygnus]

No, you don’t and that’s obvious. The fact that you believe your works maintains your security for salvation proves you are resting in your own works. If salvation isn’t gained by works by the sinner, how can His works maintain and keep him saved? If you support in losing your salvation then you make the cross of Christ of no value. This is common with denying Gods Sovereignty in salvation and the work of Christ in saving the elect. If you see justification in a synergistic way, then you push a works based salvation. Which is another gospel Paul anathematized in coming against those who promote what you and others teach, in the book of Galatians

If salvation is free gift..why do some people think we need to work for a gift? If you need to work to get the gift..or keep the gift...is it free?

 

[MCoop]

If salvation is free gift..why do some people think we need to work for a gift? If you need to work to get the gift..or keep the gift...is it free?

Nope it isn’t. Yes I hear what you are saying! The gift of salvation is by the free mercy of God received by faith

 

[Cygnus]

Nope it isn’t. Yes I hear what you are saying! The gift of salvation is by the free mercy of God received by faith

Eph 2:8. works well....For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Seems pretty clear.

 

[MCoop]

Eph 2:8. works well....For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Seems pretty clear.

Yes very clear. Thank you

 

[th1b.taylor]

1 John 2:1-14 NASB
My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.
7 Beloved, I am not writing a new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning; the old commandment is the word which you have heard. 8 On the other hand, I am writing a new commandment to you, which is true in Him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true Light is already shining. 9 The one who says he is in the Light and yet hates his brother is in the darkness until now. 10 The one who loves his brother abides in the Light and there is no cause for stumbling in him. 11 But the one who hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going because the darkness has blinded his eyes.
12 I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you for His name’s sake. 13 I am writing to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I am writing to you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one. I have written to you, children, because you know the Father. 14 I have written to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I have written to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the evil one.


Doesn't John say that Jesus will "cover for us"? So whether we obey or sin, Jesus is our propitiation.
Now it also says that we will WANT TO OBEY (which is different than a 'legal' requirement to obey), and that we will obey because we know Him, the love of God is in us, and that love is being perfected.

Jesus said they will be known by their fruits. If their hearts are not right they will be in the clubs looking to hook up and those are deep in their sin and are not saved.

 

[OzSpen]

There are probably a few but here is one:

“There will always be temptations to sin, but what sorrow awaits the person who does the tempting! It would be better to be thrown into the sea with a millstone hung around your neck than to cause one of these little ones to fall into sin. So watch yourselves!" - JESUS

Creative,

This is your reply to a question that was asked of you: 'What sin revokes God's grace from the redeemed in the hand of Christ?'

Please, please don't overlook this serious sin that revokes/cancels God's grace:

The unpardonable/unforgivable sin or “blasphemy of the Holy Spirit” is mentioned in Mark 3:22–30 and Matthew 12:22–32. Jesus said, “Truly I tell you, people can be forgiven all their sins and every slander they utter” (Mark 3:28), but then He gives one exception: “Whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin” (verse 29).

According to Jesus, the unpardonable or unforgivable sin is unique. It is the one iniquity that will never be forgiven (“never” is the meaning of “either in this age or in the age to come” in Matthew 12:32). The unforgivable sin is blasphemy (“defiant irreverence”) of the Holy Spirit in the context of the Spirit’s work in the world through Christ. In other words, the particular case of blasphemy seen in Matthew 12 and Mark 3 is unique. The guilty party, a group of Pharisees, had witnessed irrefutable evidence that Jesus was working miracles in the power of the Holy Spirit, yet they claimed that He was possessed by the prince of demons, Beelzebul (Matthew 12:24; Mark 3:30) [source].​

Oz

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Examine this verse from Apostle Paul who is widely quoted for his words in Romans 8:1"Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus"
But the same Man-- Apostle Paul says this in Romans 2:6-10
He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek.

Now let's examine the words of the Lord Himself about who is getting into heven and who is not
Matthew 7:21-23
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

Let us also examine what the Lord Jesus says in Mark 3: 33-35
“Who are my mother and my brothers?” he asked.
Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, “Here are my mother and my brothers!
Whoever does God’s will is my brother and sister and mother.”

James 2: 23-26 rather clear that Faith without works is dead . Isn't NT writer James saying the same thing what Christ taught in Matthew 7: 21-26?
"Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." James 2: 23-26

Dear friends I can quote many more verses of the Lord and other writers in NT that Repentant Faith in Christ has to be backed up with diligent obedience ---- without either the scriptures are clear, it will be very difficult to make it---- no matter who gives assurances of salvation to whom.
Let me end this post with the folliwng words of Apostle John
John 3:19-21
And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Unfortunately because it is much easier to have faith than to follow the Lord( pick up your cross, deny yourselves daily and follow me)
many churches chose to rely on the interpretation of Martin Luther " saved by grace alone through Faith alone in Christ alone"
But Luther fails to make mention of the importance of works in this observation and even if he did most christian Churches believe and teach the grace by faith alone doctrine , thereby marginalizing the mega importance of obedience/ good works through which we show to the world we are true Christians
Isn't Christ jesus clearly defining through this verse who really are His discples and who are not?
Luke 9:23 : "Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me."
Brothers and sisters why is it so difficult to understand what Christ is saying/asking ? Why should have things come to this point that we are not even perepared to accept Christ's own words on definition of discipleship and salvation?
Why do Churches run to Paul's words on salvation rather than believe Lord Christ's words ?
May I say something my friends--- here is the answer----- Because it is so much easier to believe than to follow the Lord. That's the hard part---to follow. That may be a very important reason why many Churches chose to believe Luther's ( mis) ineterpretation that we are " saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone" over Christ's words.
I end this post with a wonderful thing a forum member " Wondering" here said ..... it will always be etched in my mind freinds
Thank you for your words dear wondering . I seriously am trying to implement that in my life
Let us do our BEST
and leave to Christ the REST

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Creative,

This is your reply to a question that was asked of you: 'What sin revokes God's grace from the redeemed in the hand of Christ?'

Please, please don't overlook this serious sin that revokes/cancels God's grace:

The unpardonable/unforgivable sin or “blasphemy of the Holy Spirit” is mentioned in Mark 3:22–30 and Matthew 12:22–32. Jesus said, “Truly I tell you, people can be forgiven all their sins and every slander they utter” (Mark 3:28), but then He gives one exception: “Whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin” (verse 29).

According to Jesus, the unpardonable or unforgivable sin is unique. It is the one iniquity that will never be forgiven (“never” is the meaning of “either in this age or in the age to come” in Matthew 12:32). The unforgivable sin is blasphemy (“defiant irreverence”) of the Holy Spirit in the context of the Spirit’s work in the world through Christ. In other words, the particular case of blasphemy seen in Matthew 12 and Mark 3 is unique. The guilty party, a group of Pharisees, had witnessed irrefutable evidence that Jesus was working miracles in the power of the Holy Spirit, yet they claimed that He was possessed by the prince of demons, Beelzebul (Matthew 12:24; Mark 3:30) [source].​

Oz

Thank you for pointing that out . Appreciate it much. I believe what you're say is exceedingly important for all of us to remember.

 

[OzSpen]

Unfortunately because it is much easier to have faith than to follow the Lord( pick up your cross, deny yourselves daily and follow me)
many churches chose to rely on the interpretation of Martin Luther " saved by grace alone through Faith alone in Christ alone"
But Luther fails to make mention of the importance of works in this observation and even if he did most christian Churches believe and teach the grace by faith alone doctrine , thereby marginalizing the mega importance of obedience/ good works through which we show to the world we are true Christians
Isn't Christ jesus clearly defining through this verse who really are His discples and who are not?
Luke 9:23 : "Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me."
Brothers and sisters why is it so difficult to understand what Christ is saying/asking ? Why should have things come to this point that we are not even perepared to accept Christ's own words on definition of discipleship and salvation?
Why do Churches run to Paul's words on salvation rather than believe Lord Christ's words ?
May I say something my friends--- here is the answer----- Because it is so much easier to believe than to follow the Lord. That's the hard part---to follow. That may be a very important reason why many Churches chose to believe Luther's ( mis) ineterpretation that we are " saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone" over Christ's words.
I end this post with a wonderful thing a forum member " Wondering" here said ..... it will always be etched in my mind freinds
Thank you for your words dear wondering . I seriously am trying to implement that in my life
Let us do our BEST
and leave to Christ the REST

Rajesh,

Have you read all of Luther's writings?

Seems to me that you have missed this emphasis by Luther. In Luther's 1535 commentary on Galatians 5:6 he states:

Faith must of course be sincere. It must be a faith that performs good works through love. If faith lacks love it is not true faith. Thus the Apostle bars the way of hypocrites to the kingdom of Christ on all sides. He declares on the one hand, "In Christ Jesus circumcision availeth nothing," i.e., works avail nothing, but faith alone, and that without any merit whatever, avails before God. On the other hand, the Apostle declares that without fruits faith serves no purpose. To think, "If faith justifies without works, let us work nothing," is to despise the grace of God. Idle faith is not justifying faith. In this terse manner Paul presents the whole life of a Christian. Inwardly it consists in faith towards God, outwardly in love towards our fellow-men (emphasis added).​

Therefore, Rajesh, your statement, 'Luther fails to make mention of the importance of works in this observation', does not hold true to Luther's complete theology.

Oz

 

[GodsGrace]

"Yes, but it's a bit crude!"
More than a bit. ;)
[Although I find that the crude roots of the Bible often help to keep me from thinking that ... "I am all that and a bag of chips."]


"Then some will ask...how many works...which works?"
Ha, then just tell them what God said in Ephesians 2:10 NASB ... the good works "which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them." God asks no more and expects no less. Custom tailored by God for each individual 'workmanship'.

:yes

 

[GodsGrace]

No, you don’t and that’s obvious. The fact that you believe your works maintains your security for salvation proves you are resting in your own works. If salvation isn’t gained by works by the sinner, how can His works maintain and keep him saved? If you support in losing your salvation then you make the cross of Christ of no value. This is common with denying Gods Sovereignty in salvation and the work of Christ in saving the elect. If you see justification in a synergistic way, then you push a works based salvation. Which is another gospel Paul anathematized in coming against those who promote what you and others teach, in the book of Galatians

Why don't you answer my verses posted?
Where is scriptural support for what you say?
You're just repeating yourself.

 

[chessman]

Now let's examine the words of the Lord Himself about who is getting into heven and who is not
Matthew 7:21-23
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven

Examining the words of the Lord Himself further, we can find out what “the will of my Father” is that we must do to enter the kingdom of Heaven. (And what it does not mean)

“Be asking, and it will be given to you; be seeking, and you will find; be knocking, and it will be opened to you. For everyone asking receives; and the one seeking finds; and to the one knocking, it will be opened.​

Matthew 7:7-8 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 7:7-8&version=DLNT

Examining further, we have examples of doing “the will of the father” that is “asking”, “seeking”, “knocking”:

And behold— a leper having come to Him was prostrating- himself before Him, saying, “Master, if You are willing, You are able to cleanse me”. And having stretched-out His hand, He touched him, saying, “I am willing. Be cleansed”. And immediately his leprosy was cleansed.​

Matthew 8:2-3 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 8:2-3&version=DLNT

Seeking, asking, knocking on The Master’s door, is recognizing yourself as dirty and unable to cleanse yourself no matter how hard you try. Recognizing Him as Master and yourself as unclean (like a leper) and asking Him for cleaning is the way to receive the gift of His cleaning and is the one and only way to enter the narrow gate which He opens.

And He having entered into Capernaum, a centurion came to Him, appealing-to Him and saying, “Master, my servant has been put in the house paralyzed, being terribly tormented”. And He says to him, “Having come, I will cure him”. And having responded, the centurion said, “Master, I am not fit that You should come-in under my roof. But only speak it in a word and my servant will be healed. Now having heard, Jesus marveled, and said to the ones following, “Truly I say to you, with no one in Israel did I find so-great a faith!​

Matthew 8:5-8,10 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 8:5-8,10&version=DLNT

Now that’s Faith that heals if it’s faith that can make Jesus marvel at it. Hmm, “only speak it in a word ...”.

 

[chessman]

Romans 2:6-10
He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury

As has been pointed out Scripturally several times and by several people in this thread: Salvation by Grace through faith in Him, did not originate with Luther or Paul but rather Him (Jesus)

Matthew 7:21-23
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

Seeking after Him and asking Him and knocking on His gate IS the good works and the Father’s will.

Seeking salvation by any other works, other than His work, is self-seeking. And neither Luther nor Paul were the first to point out just how narrow is the gate of salvation by Grace through faith IN HIM.

 

[Creative]

Creative,

This is your reply to a question that was asked of you: 'What sin revokes God's grace from the redeemed in the hand of Christ?'

Please, please don't overlook this serious sin that revokes/cancels God's grace:

The unpardonable/unforgivable sin or “blasphemy of the Holy Spirit” is mentioned in Mark 3:22–30 and Matthew 12:22–32. Jesus said, “Truly I tell you, people can be forgiven all their sins and every slander they utter” (Mark 3:28), but then He gives one exception: “Whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin” (verse 29).

According to Jesus, the unpardonable or unforgivable sin is unique. It is the one iniquity that will never be forgiven (“never” is the meaning of “either in this age or in the age to come” in Matthew 12:32). The unforgivable sin is blasphemy (“defiant irreverence”) of the Holy Spirit in the context of the Spirit’s work in the world through Christ. In other words, the particular case of blasphemy seen in Matthew 12 and Mark 3 is unique. The guilty party, a group of Pharisees, had witnessed irrefutable evidence that Jesus was working miracles in the power of the Holy Spirit, yet they claimed that He was possessed by the prince of demons, Beelzebul (Matthew 12:24; Mark 3:30) [source].​

Oz

Thank you.

 

[MCoop]

Rajesh,

Have you read all of Luther's writings?

Seems to me that you have missed this emphasis by Luther. In Luther's 1535 commentary on Galatians 5:6 he states:

Faith must of course be sincere. It must be a faith that performs good works through love. If faith lacks love it is not true faith. Thus the Apostle bars the way of hypocrites to the kingdom of Christ on all sides. He declares on the one hand, "In Christ Jesus circumcision availeth nothing," i.e., works avail nothing, but faith alone, and that without any merit whatever, avails before God. On the other hand, the Apostle declares that without fruits faith serves no purpose. To think, "If faith justifies without works, let us work nothing," is to despise the grace of God. Idle faith is not justifying faith. In this terse manner Paul presents the whole life of a Christian. Inwardly it consists in faith towards God, outwardly in love towards our fellow-men (emphasis added).​

Therefore, Rajesh, your statement, 'Luther fails to make mention of the importance of works in this observation', does not hold true to Luther's complete theology.

Oz

No he hasn’t and is why his statements about him are disingenuous. Or he chooses not to so he can justify works based salvation. His whole point, as well as with wondering, is trying to prove that our salvation is conditioned upon OUR good deeds in conjunction with Christ. That justification is merited by a sinners works, in cooperation with Christ. The judaizers did the same and is why Paul anathematized them as teaching another gospel, a false gospel that denies the cross. RCC did the same and is why Luther protested against it

 

[MCoop]

As has been pointed out Scripturally several times and by several people in this thread: Salvation by Grace through faith in Him, did not originate with Luther or Paul but rather Him (Jesus)



Seeking after Him and asking Him and knocking on His gate IS the good works and the Father’s will.

Seeking salvation by any other works, other than His work, is self-seeking. And neither Luther nor Paul were the first to point out just how narrow is the gate of salvation by Grace through faith IN HIM.

Exactly!