We are not saved by faith alone as Martin Luther inferred..... here is the Biblical evidence

[GodsGrace]

I didn’t ask you why we need to do good works. I ask you why do you post an article that explains justification correctly and then say we are required to maintain good works to stay saved. So technically it sounds as if you are saying our works must be maintained in order to be justified in the end correct? Ones justification before God is not the sanctifying work of the Spirit in a believers life. Sanctification is the direct fruit of a saved sinner. The grounds for justification is Christ righteousness and His merits alone, apart from any works or merits in a sinner. Do you believe this? And who are these professing Christians who don’t like the words “work” or “must obey”? The only rebuttal you’ll get opposing those words, are those believers rebuking those teaching that ones works and obedience saves or justifies a sinner before God

P.S.
I've had it said to me, in plain words, that once we're saved it's not NECESSARY to obey God because Jesus will cover for us.

 

[Randy]

Actually Jesus stated, "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone.

I think Jesus is the good Shepard and the wonderful counselor. But He stated what He stated. Both parts.
You know the commandments: ‘You shall not commit adultery, you shall not murder, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, honor your father and mother. These can be kept for those the Son has freed from the power of sin as well as obtaining from sexual immorality. Its all summed up in "love one another"

Sanctification - put it into practice - let your light shine
Christ in us - everything we need
His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness.

I would state seasoning come from experience and wisdom learned not a 2nd work of grace subsequent to the new creation or what the Father promised. Hence the term "elder"

 

[MCoop]

I see what you mean.
It's not the works themselves that keep us saved --- it's our obedience to God.

If we become saved, we SHOULD want to also obey God. If we obey God, we will make an effort to do what we can to the best of our ability.
1 Corinthians 10:31 It refers to eating and drinking, but it could be anything we do and whatever we do it should bring glory to God. If it does, it's a good work.

A good work is also our BEHAVIOR. When Jesus taught the Beatitudes in Mathew 5, He intended to change our behavior, our inner self, our heart. This was His vision of the Kingdom on earth, to have persons that are of the quality of character as He explained and also to do the good works in chapter 25 of Mathew, for instance.

IF we went back to our old life of sin, disrespect for God, and walking toward satan, then, yes, I do believe we would lose our sanctification and with it our justification. I guess you could say that we'd lose our salvation.

It's the state of our heart that keeps us saved. Our faith in Jesus, our trust in Him.
And if our heart is in that state, we will do whatever works to His glory.

So you do agree with the OP, that ones works of obedience is a cooperative effort in justification before God correct? Am I the only one confused on what you are saying?

 

[MCoop]

P.S.
I've had it said to me, in plain words, that once we're saved it's not NECESSARY to obey God because Jesus will cover for us.

The fruit of a saved sinner is obedience and a desire to live holy. To be born anew in Christ

 

[GodsGrace]

So you do agree with the OP, that ones works of obedience is a cooperative effort in justification before God correct? Am I the only one confused on what you are saying?

I agree with your post no. 144.
I also agree with the O.P. except the terms are incorrect.

He's saying that salvation comes from works.
Not even the RCC believes this.

Salvation is a free gift from God that comes to us through our faith in Him.
We cannot work for our salvation.

So now we're saved...
John 3:3 and we enter into the Kingdom of God here on earth.

So, the simple question becomes:
Are we required to follow Jesus' teachings?

I'd say Yes.
So does following Jesus' teachings create a condition to keep our salvation?
I'd say Yes.

There is no confusion because BEFORE we were saved we were not required to follow Jesus' teachings. But now we are.... sort of a catch-22, isn't it?

I don't have a problem understanding this because I understand the meaning of the two words, J and S.

J gets us into the Kingdom.
S keeps us there.

If we stop acting like saved persons, will God put up with us forever?

 

[Free]

Free,
No need for me to go to the link. I remember saying that I don't believe man is good, thus I never use the term "good people".

If we all have the sin nature and we all sin, how could we be good?

By "good" as you use it here, what do you mean?

Jesus said only God is good.

By "good" as you use it here, what do you mean?

As also Mike has pointed out, yes, Jesus saying only God is good, does indeed mean that HE is good, because Jesus is God.

I said it even before he did, here: http://christianforums.net/Fellowsh...e-biblical-evidence.71773/page-6#post-1387967

The point isn't whether or not I said it first, but rather that you seem to be ignoring my posts.

But it could be understood to mean that man is not good.

No, it cannot, as that would contradict Scripture.

I did post some verses from Romans, which is why I haven't understood why my post wasn't clear.

There is none righteous, no not one.
Romans 3:10

For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
Romans 3:23

Romans 5:12
1 Corinthians 15:22
Mathew 15:18-19

It has nothing to do with whether or not your post is clear. You just keep repeating yourself without addressing the points I am making and the Scriptures I have given.

 

[GodsGrace]

By "good" as you use it here, what do you mean?


By "good" as you use it here, what do you mean?


I said it even before he did, here: http://christianforums.net/Fellowsh...e-biblical-evidence.71773/page-6#post-1387967

The point isn't whether or not I said it first, but rather that you seem to be ignoring my posts.


No, it cannot, as that would contradict Scripture.


It has nothing to do with whether or not your post is clear. You just keep repeating yourself without addressing the points I am making and the Scriptures I have given.

Free,
I'm sorry but I don't understand anymore what we're discussing.

Do you believe people are good?
Do you believe we're born good?
What about Adam's sin?
What about the effects of that sin?

Man is not good.
Only God is good.
God is good because it's an attribute of His character...as is Holiness and Justice, and more.

God has set up the standard for good. HE is all good.
Man must decide if he wants to follow God or satan.
Even the man who decides to follow God will always have a problem with his sin nature till the day he dies.

How do wars start? In the heart. Man wants and doesn't get.
Do children treat each other well? Certainly not.
We have the survival instinct and this causes us to be mean at times.

Jesus sought to change our attitudes and our behavior.
This must surely mean that He believed we needed it?

 

[MCoop]

I see what you mean.
It's not the works themselves that keep us saved --- it's our obedience to God.

If we become saved, we SHOULD want to also obey God. If we obey God, we will make an effort to do what we can to the best of our ability.
1 Corinthians 10:31 It refers to eating and drinking, but it could be anything we do and whatever we do it should bring glory to God. If it does, it's a good work.

A good work is also our BEHAVIOR. When Jesus taught the Beatitudes in Mathew 5, He intended to change our behavior, our inner self, our heart. This was His vision of the Kingdom on earth, to have persons that are of the quality of character as He explained and also to do the good works in chapter 25 of Mathew, for instance.

IF we went back to our old life of sin, disrespect for God, and walking toward satan, then, yes, I do believe we would lose our sanctification and with it our justification. I guess you could say that we'd lose our salvation.

It's the state of our heart that keeps us saved. Our faith in Jesus, our trust in Him.
And if our heart is in that state, we will do whatever works to His glory.

I agree with your post no. 144.
I also agree with the O.P. except the terms are incorrect.

He's saying that salvation comes from works.
Not even the RCC believes this.

Salvation is a free gift from God that comes to us through our faith in Him.
We cannot work for our salvation.

So now we're saved...
John 3:3 and we enter into the Kingdom of God here on earth.

So, the simple question becomes:
Are we required to follow Jesus' teachings?

I'd say Yes.
So does following Jesus' teachings create a condition to keep our salvation?
I'd say Yes.

There is no confusion because BEFORE we were saved we were not required to follow Jesus' teachings. But now we are.... sort of a catch-22, isn't it?

I don't have a problem understanding this because I understand the meaning of the two words, J and S.

J gets us into the Kingdom.
S keeps us there.

If we stop acting like saved persons, will God put up with us forever?

RCC does teach works righteousness. As does the OP. You say we can’t “work” for our salvation but yet then say our work of obedience keeps us saved. That’s contradicting and is why I’m confused on what you truly believe. Christ Jesus is our justification before God apart from any works in the believer. I’ll leave it at that

 

[Free]

Free,
I'm sorry but I don't understand anymore what we're discussing.

We are discussing the same thing we have been for a few pages now. Please answer the two questions I asked.

 

[whatgoeshere?]

I agree. What I believe Martin did was discover the truth, which happened to be somewhat contrary to what he had been taught and was teaching to that point.

It is my belief that the holy spirit within all that are His will lead the sincere seeker to His message when it is time. I think also, when we speak to multitudes, as do ministers, or lecturers of the faith, His spirit takes over when He knows there is just one soul in need of the words, or a sign, that Truth has arrived.
Can I imagine for myself the task set forth if I had to work to believe? And work to be saved and remain so? No, I think I cannot. Because I was without God and his guidance when I lived without his Spirit within me. And what a fine mess I made of my life as proof.

Faith alone is a fact of Salvation that to my knowing is deried or denied , by only one personable tradition on earth. That is one that does not ascribe Salvation as such an esteemed priority for the soul, but rather idolizes the flesh as power and mediatiors of the name of God themselves.
A nasty business. As they also deny Christ alone able to save.

 

[Mike]

Mike,
It's just one big misunderstanding and I can't fix it anymore.
Of course Jesus is God.
Of course Jesus is good.

Wondering, I'm sorry to have added to your frustration. I said that I wasn't questioning your theology, because I knew you would never suggest these things. If I thought you were, I'd certainly be more than questioning your theology. It just seemed like you were taking Jesus' response at face value and missing the point He was making. You are deep in the Word, so I thought even this was unlikely, but I wanted to make the point.

I was trying to make the point that MAN is not good.
How could I possibly think Jesus wasn't???

You couldn't, and you wouldn't. Anyone who's paid attention to you here would know that much of you.

We use "good" to imply "acceptable" in our vernacular, but it is differently meant when we refer to God. In this sense, it has very weighty implications. People could never be good like God, but they can be good.

 

[whatgoeshere?]

Hi whatgoeshere,

Welcome to the forum!
You're absolutely right...we are saved by faith alone.
You'll find a little bit of everything here.
Feel free to join in and state your beliefs.

Hi whatgoeshere and welcome to CF

I agree. No man can teach us anything apart from the Holy Spirit teaching them first. If Jesus said it I will believe in what He has already said. If man says it then it is only through confirmation by the Holy Spirit that I will believe man.

Hello to you both as well, thank you for welcoming me.

Thank you wondering, I shall.
Yes, for_his_glory, I agree with that. I am blessed when I hearken to his Holy Spirits leading me to truth and guiding me as to what teachers to accept, and to reject too.
It is a keen sense to develop in this noisy world but it is such a blessing once achieved.

God's light embraces us for eternity. I embrace you both as sisters.

 

[GodsGrace]

Wondering, I'm sorry to have added to your frustration. I said that I wasn't questioning your theology, because I knew you would never suggest these things. If I thought you were, I'd certainly be more than questioning your theology. It just seemed like you were taking Jesus' response at face value and missing the point He was making. You are deep in the Word, so I thought even this was unlikely, but I wanted to make the point.

You couldn't, and you wouldn't. Anyone who's paid attention to you here would know that much of you.

We use "good" to imply "acceptable" in our vernacular, but it is differently meant when we refer to God. In this sense, it has very weighty implications. People could never be good like God, but they can be good.

Thanks for posting Mike.
As you must know, I'm not one to carry on.
It's not easy to speak of spiritual matters because we each seem to have our own vocabulary.

Compared to God, man is not good. We live with the effects of Adam's sin.
Of course we have to then say that a saved person is indwelt with the Holy
Spirit, but it seems like this is common knowledge.

You did not frustrate me. I found your posts helpful !

 

[GodsGrace]

We are discussing the same thing we have been for a few pages now. Please answer the two questions I asked.

Free,
I'm not accustomed to discussing something for pages.
I feel I've answered what I mean by the word good.
I've given scripture to support my belief.
I just don't know what more to say.
If you want to believe that man is good, it's your prerogative.

I've learned from two different churches that man is not good and that he needs to be saved.
What do YOU believe "good" means?
If we're good, why did Jesus have to atone for our sins?

 

[GodsGrace]

Hello to you both as well, thank you for welcoming me.

Thank you wondering, I shall.
Yes, for_his_glory, I agree with that. I am blessed when I hearken to his Holy Spirits leading me to truth and guiding me as to what teachers to accept, and to reject too.
It is a keen sense to develop in this noisy world but it is such a blessing once achieved.

God's light embraces us for eternity. I embrace you both as sisters.

Hi
I'll be answering your post no. 150 on my computer.
In the meantime think of this...
You fall in love and get married.
This is justification.

But now you have to stay married.
Staying married requires some work.
This is sanctification.
Why would it be different with God?
He made us and desires a love relationship.
Of course God wants good works from us...
Consider John 5:28-29
This is Jesus speaking, not me.

 

[whatgoeshere?]

Hi
I'll be answering your post no. 150 on my computer.
In the meantime think of this...
You fall in love and get married.
This is justification.

But now you have to stay married.
Staying married requires some work.
This is sanctification.
Why would it be different with God?
He made us and desires a love relationship.
Of course God wants good works from us...
Consider John 5:28-29
This is Jesus speaking, not me.

How does the one that is in Christ due only and firstly to God's grace work to keep what they never worked to receive first?

 

[GodsGrace]

How does the one that is in Christ due only and firstly to God's grace work to keep what they never worked to receive first?

You're answering a question with a question...
How do you explain John 5:28-29 . Jesus Himself says we will be judged by our works.

 

[Free]

Free,
I'm not accustomed to discussing something for pages.
I feel I've answered what I mean by the word good.
I've given scripture to support my belief.
I just don't know what more to say.
If you want to believe that man is good, it's your prerogative.

I've learned from two different churches that man is not good and that he needs to be saved.
What do YOU believe "good" means?
If we're good, why did Jesus have to atone for our sins?

Never mind. You have once again not bothered to answer my post; that's four or five times now. You are intent on just repeating your position and not answering others. You are just too discourteous to bother discussing this anymore.

 

[whatgoeshere?]

wondering said:
You're answering a question with a question...
How do you explain John 5:28-29 . Jesus Himself says we will be judged by our works.

Is that what you read in that passage?
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Those of us who are in Christ will be resurrected into eternal life. Those that have done evil are not the saved. And they shall suffer damnation.
There are two thrones in Heaven before which the dead shall appear. The judgment seat of Christ is the Bema seat. Our lives in Christ will there be reviewed by the father. We cannot be judged for our sins because Jesus was the propitiation for those on the cross.
The Bema seat is the seat wherein we will be rewarded for what we exampled in life as God's own.

If we look to the Book of Revelation we know that the unsaved, the damned, those who were not truly in God's grace when invoking the name of his Son, we will see those are judged for their sins. That is then the great white throne of God.

 

[WIP]

P.S.
I've had it said to me, in plain words, that once we're saved it's not NECESSARY to obey God because Jesus will cover for us.

Me too, which is where I have issues.