We are not saved by faith alone as Martin Luther inferred..... here is the Biblical evidence

[WIP]

It sounds like you're still not seeing what Jesus was stating by His question in Luke 18:19. He wasn't saying "I'm not good, because only God is good." I'm not questioning your theology at all as some seem to be. In this exchange, He is making a claim of His deity. He was having the ruler think through his own statement that Jesus was Good and make the connection himself. You know only God is good, and you're calling me good, so..."

That's how I've always seen it.

Me too.

 

[GodsGrace]

It sounds like you're still not seeing what Jesus was stating by His question in Luke 18:19. He wasn't saying "I'm not good, because only God is good." I'm not questioning your theology at all as some seem to be. In this exchange, He is making a claim of His deity. He was having the ruler think through his own statement that Jesus was Good and make the connection himself. You know only God is good, and you're calling me good, so..."

That's how I've always seen it.

Mike,
It's just one big misunderstanding and I can't fix it anymore.
Of course Jesus is God.
Of course Jesus is good.

I was trying to make the point that MAN is not good.
How could I possibly think Jesus wasn't???

I don't even remember my original statement anymore.
It might have been worded wrong, but I've tried to fix it to no avail.

 

[GodsGrace]

Me too.

Like
and Agree.

 

[GodsGrace]

Because Jesus is not the Father. Both are God, yes, but Jesus is not the Father and the Father is not Jesus. What I'm suggesting is that when you say that only the Father is good, you are denying Jesus' and the Holy Spirit's goodness. When you say only God is good, then you are encompassing all three.

Also, can you show me where Scripture is translated that Jesus says only the Father is good? All translations that I am familiar with render Mark 10:18 as only God is good. Nothing about the Father specifically.

Let me try another angle. Using your analogy, then it would be correct to say that the Father came in the flesh, was crucified, buried, and rose again but it was Jesus that did this, not the Father.

WIP
I don't know what more to say.
I apparently worded my first post badly.

Been trying to fix it.
Last try:

GOD and FATHER usually mean the same.
GOD and SON means JESUS.
GOD and Holy Spirit, means the Holy Spirit.

ALL THREE ARE GOD.
All three are in one God.
The Holy Trinity.

God is good.
Jesus is good.
Holy Spirit is good.

My point was that MAN is not good.
I can't even remember my original post.

If you have a specific question re my beliefs, I'll be happy to answer it.
(I said JESUS said only God is good, that wasn't ME saying it. IOW, ONLY GOD is good...
not men)

Caps are for emphasis...

 

[GodsGrace]

I dont hold to a 2nd act of grace that changes my being. Only the gift the Father promised - the new creation - Christ in us -therefore any seasoning would come by experience and wisdom learned
1cor 6:11
And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Hi Randy,
What do you mean you don't hold to a second act of grace?
Where did you learn that?
Whether you agree with it or not, it does exist.

This would require a study on your part. It really helped me a lot BTW.
I learned this from two different churches. I don't believe in esigesis or SOLO scriptura.
(not sola scriptura)

Justification cannot be earned by any work.
God ALONE justifies us when we believe in Him. By this faith we are saved.
Ephesians 2:8

Sanctification is an ongoing process which requires our co-operation.
We are set apart for good works, or deeds, we are God's hands and feet while here.
We serve God out of love but we also have a duty to obey the commandments Jesus left us with --- which could be narrowed down to the two Great Commandments.
Love God
Love Your Neighbor as Yourself
Mathew 22:39

Also, if you're interested, I'm adding the following.
I found it to be a very good explanation that is very helpful to our walk.

*************************************************************************

Justification and Sanctification: What is the Difference?
by Matt Slick
11/23/08

Understanding the difference between justification and sanctification can be as important as understanding the difference between salvation and damnation. Rightly dividing between the two is of crucial importance. When you understand what they are, you can then draw a line in the sand and say, "This is what saves. This is not what saves."

Justification is the work of God where the righteousness of Jesus is reckoned to the sinner, so the sinner is declared by God as being righteous under the Law (Rom. 4:3; 5:1,9; Gal. 2:16; 3:11). This righteousness is not earned or retained by any effort of the saved. Justification is an instantaneous occurrence with the result being eternal life. It is based completely and solely upon Jesus' sacrifice on the cross (1 Pet. 2:24) and is received by faith alone (Eph. 2:8-9). No works are necessary whatsoever to obtain justification. Otherwise, it is not a gift (Rom. 6:23). Therefore, we are justified by faith (Romans 5:1).


Part 1 of 2

 

[GodsGrace]

Part 2 of 2


Sanctification is the process of being set apart for God's work and being conformed to the image of Christ. This conforming to Christ involves the work of the person, but it is still God working in the believer to produce more of a godly character and life in the person who has already been justified (Phil. 2:13). Sanctification is not instantaneous because it is not the work of God alone. The justified person is actively involved in submitting to God's will, resisting sin, seeking holiness, and working to be more godly (Gal. 5:22-23). Significantly, sanctification has no bearing on justification. That is, even if we don't live a perfect life, we are still justified.

Where justification is a legal declaration that is instantaneous, sanctification is a process. Where justification comes from outside of us, from God, sanctification comes from God within us by the work of the Holy Spirit in accordance with the Bible. In other words, we contribute to sanctification through our efforts. In contrast, we do not contribute to our justification through our efforts.

Now, there is one more point of clarification. To sanctify also means to set apart for holy use. Therefore, we can have verses that talk about us being sanctified already because God has set us apart for holy use.

• John 10:36, "do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?"
• Rom. 15:16, "to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles, ministering as a priest the gospel of God, that my offering of the Gentiles might become acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit."
• 1 Cor. 1:2, "to the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours."
• 1 Cor. 6:11, "And such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God."
• 1 Tim. 4:4-5, "For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected, if it is received with gratitude; 5 for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer."
• Heb. 2:11, "For both He who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are all from one Father; for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren."

All that we need is given to us in Christ. So there is one sense in which we are not yet completely formed into the image of Christ (sanctification of being made like Jesus), yet in another sense, we are because we are seen as "in Christ" and set apart for holy use where all our spiritual needs and purposes are met through Jesus.

Does this mean those justified by grace can sin as much as they want?
Romans 6:1-2 says, "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer in it?"

1 Thess. 4:7 says, "God has called us not for the purpose of impurity, but in sanctification."

The Scriptures teach us that we are to live holy lives and avoid sin (Col. 1:5-11). Just because we are saved and eternally justified before God (John 10:28), that is no excuse to continue in the sin from which we were saved. Of course, we all sin (Rom. 3:23); but the war between the saved and sin is continuous (Rom. 7:14-20), and it won't be until the return of Jesus that we will be delivered from this body of death (Rom. 7:24). To seek sin continually and use God's grace to excuse it later is to trample the blood of Christ underfoot (Heb. 10:29) and to reveal the person's true sinful, unsaved nature (1 John 2:4; 2:19). Other verses worth checking out are: Heb. 12:14; 1 Pet. 1:14-16; and 1 Pet. 2:21-22.

What the cults do with justification and sanctification
The cults consistently blur the meanings of the two terms and misapply the truths taught in God's word. The result is a theology of works' righteousness--of earning their salvation, which only leads to damnation. This is because by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified (Gal. 2:16). Man cannot contribute to his salvation (Gal. 5:1-8). Man is sinful, and even his best deeds are stained and filthy before God (Isaiah 64:6). Therefore, making a person right before God can only be God's work (Gal. 2:20).

Typically, in cult theologies, a person is not justified (declared righteous in God's eyes) until the final day of judgment when his works are weighed, and a reward is given; or he is found worthy of his place with God. Thus, a person with this errant theology can not claim 1 John 5:13 as his own which says, "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may believe on the name of the Son of God."

Contextually, "These things" refer to loving God, being obedient to Him, belief in Christ, and eternal life in Jesus. Therefore, 1 John 5:13 can be considered a test. If you are believing and doing the right things, then you will know if you have eternal life. Can a cultist know he has eternal life? No, he cannot; but a Christian can.

People in cults don't understand the difference between justification and sanctification. Therefore, they must depend upon a cooperative effort with God to have their sins forgiven, which is, essentially, combining the filthy works of man (Isaiah 64:6) with the holy work of God. They don't mix. They can't. Hence, salvation is by grace through faith alone. To believe anything else is to miss salvation.

Source: https://carm.org/justification-and-sanctification

 

[whatgoeshere?]

I am newly arrived I do admit this. I hope that it isn't standard here that there are people who hope in their conversations started in these religious forums to convince us that Jesus words are not correct.

Martin did not first teach this, that we are saved by faith alone. Our Lord did. John 3:16. John 3:36.

 

[GodsGrace]

I feel quite comfortable in my salvation and don't seek good deeds to keep my salvation. I prayed for someone does that keep me saved?(smile)

I feel quite comfortable in my salvation.
But I know that if I'm to remain in the Kingdom of God here on earth, I have a duty to follow Jesus and do as He instructed all of us Christians.

After all, Christian means a Little Christ, and we are indeed required by our faith and its tenets to become ever more like He would want us to be.

 

[GodsGrace]

I am newly arrived I do admit this. I hope that it isn't standard here that there are people who hope in their conversations started in these religious forums to convince us that Jesus words are not correct.

Martin did not first teach this, that we are saved by faith alone. Our Lord did. John 3:16. John 3:36.

Hi whatgoeshere,

Welcome to the forum!
You're absolutely right...we are saved by faith alone.
You'll find a little bit of everything here.
Feel free to join in and state your beliefs.

 

[for_his_glory]

Hi Rajesh and welcome to CF

To me it doesn't matter what a man says, but what Christ has already said and given us in His word.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

We are saved by Gods grace through faith that is Christ Jesus. It's not our faith, but our belief and trust in Christ as we grow in knowledge of Him. We are created in Christ that we carry on the works that God has commanded we walk in them. You hear many say the word works, but very seldom describe what those works are. We know Gods greatest commandment is to love, but what are the works that will bear good fruit?

Matthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 For I was an hungered, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

This is what is expected of those who are in Christ and He in them to follow in the footsteps of Christ for these are the works we are to continue in.

 

[MCoop]

Part 2 of 2


Sanctification is the process of being set apart for God's work and being conformed to the image of Christ. This conforming to Christ involves the work of the person, but it is still God working in the believer to produce more of a godly character and life in the person who has already been justified (Phil. 2:13). Sanctification is not instantaneous because it is not the work of God alone. The justified person is actively involved in submitting to God's will, resisting sin, seeking holiness, and working to be more godly (Gal. 5:22-23). Significantly, sanctification has no bearing on justification. That is, even if we don't live a perfect life, we are still justified.

Where justification is a legal declaration that is instantaneous, sanctification is a process. Where justification comes from outside of us, from God, sanctification comes from God within us by the work of the Holy Spirit in accordance with the Bible. In other words, we contribute to sanctification through our efforts. In contrast, we do not contribute to our justification through our efforts.

Now, there is one more point of clarification. To sanctify also means to set apart for holy use. Therefore, we can have verses that talk about us being sanctified already because God has set us apart for holy use.

• John 10:36, "do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?"
• Rom. 15:16, "to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles, ministering as a priest the gospel of God, that my offering of the Gentiles might become acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit."
• 1 Cor. 1:2, "to the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours."
• 1 Cor. 6:11, "And such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God."
• 1 Tim. 4:4-5, "For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected, if it is received with gratitude; 5 for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer."
• Heb. 2:11, "For both He who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are all from one Father; for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren."

All that we need is given to us in Christ. So there is one sense in which we are not yet completely formed into the image of Christ (sanctification of being made like Jesus), yet in another sense, we are because we are seen as "in Christ" and set apart for holy use where all our spiritual needs and purposes are met through Jesus.

Does this mean those justified by grace can sin as much as they want?
Romans 6:1-2 says, "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer in it?"

1 Thess. 4:7 says, "God has called us not for the purpose of impurity, but in sanctification."

The Scriptures teach us that we are to live holy lives and avoid sin (Col. 1:5-11). Just because we are saved and eternally justified before God (John 10:28), that is no excuse to continue in the sin from which we were saved. Of course, we all sin (Rom. 3:23); but the war between the saved and sin is continuous (Rom. 7:14-20), and it won't be until the return of Jesus that we will be delivered from this body of death (Rom. 7:24). To seek sin continually and use God's grace to excuse it later is to trample the blood of Christ underfoot (Heb. 10:29) and to reveal the person's true sinful, unsaved nature (1 John 2:4; 2:19). Other verses worth checking out are: Heb. 12:14; 1 Pet. 1:14-16; and 1 Pet. 2:21-22.

What the cults do with justification and sanctification
The cults consistently blur the meanings of the two terms and misapply the truths taught in God's word. The result is a theology of works' righteousness--of earning their salvation, which only leads to damnation. This is because by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified (Gal. 2:16). Man cannot contribute to his salvation (Gal. 5:1-8). Man is sinful, and even his best deeds are stained and filthy before God (Isaiah 64:6). Therefore, making a person right before God can only be God's work (Gal. 2:20).

Typically, in cult theologies, a person is not justified (declared righteous in God's eyes) until the final day of judgment when his works are weighed, and a reward is given; or he is found worthy of his place with God. Thus, a person with this errant theology can not claim 1 John 5:13 as his own which says, "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may believe on the name of the Son of God."

Contextually, "These things" refer to loving God, being obedient to Him, belief in Christ, and eternal life in Jesus. Therefore, 1 John 5:13 can be considered a test. If you are believing and doing the right things, then you will know if you have eternal life. Can a cultist know he has eternal life? No, he cannot; but a Christian can.

People in cults don't understand the difference between justification and sanctification. Therefore, they must depend upon a cooperative effort with God to have their sins forgiven, which is, essentially, combining the filthy works of man (Isaiah 64:6) with the holy work of God. They don't mix. They can't. Hence, salvation is by grace through faith alone. To believe anything else is to miss salvation.

Source: https://carm.org/justification-and-sanctification

I agree with the article. And will say that justification by faith alone is essential Christian Doctrine. Which poses the question why then do you say that we are required to maintain good works to stay saved?

 

[Free]

Mike,
It's just one big misunderstanding and I can't fix it anymore.
Of course Jesus is God.
Of course Jesus is good.

I was trying to make the point that MAN is not good.
How could I possibly think Jesus wasn't???

I don't even remember my original statement anymore.
It might have been worded wrong, but I've tried to fix it to no avail.

Your original statement was: 'I never use the term "good people". Only our Father in heaven is good, as Jesus stated.
Mark 10:18'

Found here: http://christianforums.net/Fellowsh...e-biblical-evidence.71773/page-4#post-1387753

The reason I questioned you on this is, firstly, because the wording logically excludes Jesus from being good. If, as you stated, that "Only our Father in heaven is good," it follows that Jesus himself is not good. You have since cleared that up, which is good.

Secondly, the context shows what Jesus was saying, as I previously discussed. The main issue is that you are misusing this verse, taking it out of context, as reasoning for why you 'never use the term "good people."' One simply cannot use this verse to support such an idea.

 

[for_his_glory]

I am newly arrived I do admit this. I hope that it isn't standard here that there are people who hope in their conversations started in these religious forums to convince us that Jesus words are not correct.

Martin did not first teach this, that we are saved by faith alone. Our Lord did. John 3:16. John 3:36.

Hi whatgoeshere and welcome to CF

I agree. No man can teach us anything apart from the Holy Spirit teaching them first. If Jesus said it I will believe in what He has already said. If man says it then it is only through confirmation by the Holy Spirit that I will believe man.

 

[GodsGrace]

I agree with the article. And will say that justification by faith alone is essential Christian Doctrine. Which poses the question why then do you say that we are required to maintain good works to stay saved?

Hi
I posted the link specifically because I really don't understand why this is difficult to understand.
The article explains everything perfectly. It even explains why cults don't believe in the sanctification part.

How could you agree with the article and then ask me why we need to do works?
for_his_glory wrote a perfect post explaining what works are. I'd go even farther than that and say that everything we do, we do for God once we're saved.

As the article stated, sanctification is a process. It lasts our entire life. Some don't like the word "works", some don't like the words "must obey". I have no problem with these words. I have no problem serving the One who saved me from satan's grip.

The word sanctification is not always used properly in the N.T. It took theologians to sort out the sayings of Paul and make the two words J and S distinct. This is a known fact and could be looked up even on line.

If you have an NIV study bible, look at the Index to Topics in the back. Look under the words:
Justification and Sanctification.

I cannot do this study for you.

When we're born again, the works will flow from us because of our love for Christ.
I'd say that if we see no works in a person, there is a problem with his faith.

 

[GodsGrace]

Your original statement was: 'I never use the term "good people". Only our Father in heaven is good, as Jesus stated.
Mark 10:18'

Found here: http://christianforums.net/Fellowsh...e-biblical-evidence.71773/page-4#post-1387753

The reason I questioned you on this is, firstly, because the wording logically excludes Jesus from being good. If, as you stated, that "Only our Father in heaven is good," it follows that Jesus himself is not good. You have since cleared that up, which is good.

Secondly, the context shows what Jesus was saying, as I previously discussed. The main issue is that you are misusing this verse, taking it out of context, as reasoning for why you 'never use the term "good people."' One simply cannot use this verse to support such an idea.

Free,
No need for me to go to the link. I remember saying that I don't believe man is good, thus I never use the term "good people".

If we all have the sin nature and we all sin, how could we be good?

Jesus said only God is good.

As also Mike has pointed out, yes, Jesus saying only God is good, does indeed mean that HE is good, because Jesus is God.

But it could be understood to mean that man is not good.
Someone went running up to Jesus and kneeled.
The man asked Jesus, Good Master, what must I do to inherit eternal life?
Jesus answered him: Why do you call me good? There is none good but One, Who is God.

Jesus was telling the man that no one is good and they cannot depend on themselves for salvation. They're "goodness" would not get them eternal life. He had to have faith in God and become a disciple of Jesus to have eternal life.

Jesus was also certainly trying to make the man understand that he was speaking to God...

I did post some verses from Romans, which is why I haven't understood why my post wasn't clear.

There is none righteous, no not one.
Romans 3:10

For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
Romans 3:23

Romans 5:12
1 Corinthians 15:22
Mathew 15:18-19

 

[MCoop]

Hi
I posted the link specifically because I really don't understand why this is difficult to understand.
The article explains everything perfectly. It even explains why cults don't believe in the sanctification part.

How could you agree with the article and then ask me why we need to do works?
for_his_glory wrote a perfect post explaining what works are. I'd go even farther than that and say that everything we do, we do for God once we're saved.

As the article stated, sanctification is a process. It lasts our entire life. Some don't like the word "works", some don't like the words "must obey". I have no problem with these words. I have no problem serving the One who saved me from satan's grip.

The word sanctification is not always used properly in the N.T. It took theologians to sort out the sayings of Paul and make the two words J and S distinct. This is a known fact and could be looked up even on line.

If you have an NIV study bible, look at the Index to Topics in the back. Look under the words:
Justification and Sanctification.

I cannot do this study for you.

When we're born again, the works will flow from us because of our love for Christ.
I'd say that if we see no works in a person, there is a problem with his faith.

I didn’t ask you why we need to do good works. I ask you why do you post an article that explains justification correctly and then say we are required to maintain good works to stay saved. So technically it sounds as if you are saying our works must be maintained in order to be justified in the end correct? Ones justification before God is not the sanctifying work of the Spirit in a believers life. Sanctification is the direct fruit of a saved sinner. The grounds for justification is Christ righteousness and His merits alone, apart from any works or merits in a sinner. Do you believe this? And who are these professing Christians who don’t like the words “work” or “must obey”? The only rebuttal you’ll get opposing those words, are those believers rebuking those teaching that ones works and obedience saves or justifies a sinner before God

 

[WIP]

I am newly arrived I do admit this. I hope that it isn't standard here that there are people who hope in their conversations started in these religious forums to convince us that Jesus words are not correct.

Martin did not first teach this, that we are saved by faith alone. Our Lord did. John 3:16. John 3:36.

I agree. What I believe Martin did was discover the truth, which happened to be somewhat contrary to what he had been taught and was teaching to that point.

 

[WIP]

Jesus said only God is good.

Now you're saying it the way I was trying to explain.

 

[GodsGrace]

Now you're saying it the way I was trying to explain.

 

[GodsGrace]

I didn’t ask you why we need to do good works. I ask you why do you post an article that explains justification correctly and then say we are required to maintain good works to stay saved. So technically it sounds as if you are saying our works must be maintained in order to be justified in the end correct? Ones justification before God is not the sanctifying work of the Spirit in a believers life. Sanctification is the direct fruit of a saved sinner. The grounds for justification is Christ righteousness and His merits alone, apart from any works or merits in a sinner. Do you believe this? And who are these professing Christians who don’t like the words “work” or “must obey”? The only rebuttal you’ll get opposing those words, are those believers rebuking those teaching that ones works and obedience saves or justifies a sinner before God

I see what you mean.
It's not the works themselves that keep us saved --- it's our obedience to God.

If we become saved, we SHOULD want to also obey God. If we obey God, we will make an effort to do what we can to the best of our ability.
1 Corinthians 10:31 It refers to eating and drinking, but it could be anything we do and whatever we do it should bring glory to God. If it does, it's a good work.

A good work is also our BEHAVIOR. When Jesus taught the Beatitudes in Mathew 5, He intended to change our behavior, our inner self, our heart. This was His vision of the Kingdom on earth, to have persons that are of the quality of character as He explained and also to do the good works in chapter 25 of Mathew, for instance.

IF we went back to our old life of sin, disrespect for God, and walking toward satan, then, yes, I do believe we would lose our sanctification and with it our justification. I guess you could say that we'd lose our salvation.

It's the state of our heart that keeps us saved. Our faith in Jesus, our trust in Him.
And if our heart is in that state, we will do whatever works to His glory.