What Do We Know About the Holy Spirit?

[Free]

So would I be correct in making the assumption that you believe that believers today are promised God's Holy Breath? If so, why?

Why not? It is never stated otherwise. Is it not his Spirit in us that brings life to our mortal bodies, gives us strength to stand against temptation, sanctifies us? Are our bodies not called temples of the Holy Spirit?

You need to explain why such things as these would only apply to early believers and not us when there is no mention of why it shouldn't be so. And no, arguments such as the Apostles not being around anymore will not suffice.

 

[Webb]

This thing about "God's Holy Breath" is without scriptural authority. Acts 2:38 which I cited did not use that term nor do I recall any reputable version so using.

Further, I am not a Campbellite!

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

This thing about "God's Holy Breath" is without scriptural authority. Acts 2:38 which I cited did not use that term nor do I recall any reputable version so using.

Further, I am not a Campbellite!

Webb, the term 'Holy Spirit' is derived from holy or special set apart breath. So when you read translations that use the term "Holy Spirit", know that it means God's special breath.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Why not? It is never stated otherwise. Is it not his Spirit in us that brings life to our mortal bodies, gives us strength to stand against temptation, sanctifies us? Are our bodies not called temples of the Holy Spirit?

You need to explain why such things as these would only apply to early believers and not us when there is no mention of why it shouldn't be so. And no, arguments such as the Apostles not being around anymore will not suffice.

You are correct in saying that we are given life because of God's Spirit (the breath of life) that is given to us. This spirit or breath, (whatever word you prefer as they carry the same Biblical meaning) is not the same as what we know as the Holy Spirit. The gift of God's Holy Spirit is a special gift given in addition to the spirit of life. The gift of Holy Spirit was promised to be given out en masse at a specified time in history (the last days which Peter indentified as his time in Acts 2) to specified peoples (Jewish sons and daughters as well as those who were far off to quote the prophet Joel).
Aside from this biblically specified time period, the gift of God's Holy Spirit was not given en masse and there was no formula one could employ to receive it. God simply gave it to select individuals as He saw fit. Compare that to what the case was during the "last days" when as was pointed out by another poster one who repented and was baptized could expect to be gifted with God's Holy Spirit.

I could continue with semantics all day, but instead I'll get to my point. God, because He's GOD can of course distribute His Holy Spirit whenever, however, and to whomever He chooses. He is not bound to give it to anyone unless of course He binds Himself as He did by means of His inspired prophet that Peter confirmed was to occur within his generation. When the "last days" concluded, God had lept His word was was no longer bound to distribute His Holy Spirit to all who submitted to the required ordinance.
In closing what I am saying is that individuals who claim to be filled with or should I say gifted with God's Holy Spirit today are making a bold proclamation and they have no scriptural foundation holding up their claim.

 

[Free]

Webb, the term 'Holy Spirit' is derived from holy or special set apart breath. So when you read translations that use the term "Holy Spirit", know that it means God's special breath.

Jesus also said that "God is Spirit," so according to your reasoning, this is the equivalent of "God is breath." But that clearly makes little sense. Just because "spirit" can mean "breath" does not mean that in every instance it is to be translated as such. The NT clearly speaks of the Holy Spirit as though "it" were a Person.

You are correct in saying that we are given life because of God's Spirit (the breath of life) that is given to us. This spirit or breath, (whatever word you prefer as they carry the same Biblical meaning) is not the same as what we know as the Holy Spirit.

Again, this is an exegetical fallacy to claim that breath and spirit carry the same meaning in all instances. Many Greek words have different nuances which can significantly change the meaning of what is being said.

The gift of God's Holy Spirit is a special gift given in addition to the spirit of life. The gift of Holy Spirit was promised to be given out en masse at a specified time in history (the last days which Peter indentified as his time in Acts 2) to specified peoples (Jewish sons and daughters as well as those who were far off to quote the prophet Joel).

Are seriously suggesting that we are no longer in the last days? I sure hope not.

Looking at the context:

Acts 2:16-20, 16 But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel: 17 "'And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams; 18 even on my male servants and female servants in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy. 19 And I will show wonders in the heavens above and signs on the earth below, blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke; 20 the sun shall be turned to darkness and the moon to blood, before the day of the Lord comes, the great and magnificent day.

It seems as though "the last days" in which God pours out his Spirit are to continue up until "the day of the Lord...the great and magnificent day."

Aside from this biblically specified time period, the gift of God's Holy Spirit was not given en masse and there was no formula one could employ to receive it. God simply gave it to select individuals as He saw fit. Compare that to what the case was during the "last days" when as was pointed out by another poster one who repented and was baptized could expect to be gifted with God's Holy Spirit.

Every believer receives the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

I could continue with semantics all day, but instead I'll get to my point. God, because He's GOD can of course distribute His Holy Spirit whenever, however, and to whomever He chooses. He is not bound to give it to anyone unless of course He binds Himself as He did by means of His inspired prophet that Peter confirmed was to occur within his generation. When the "last days" concluded, God had lept His word was was no longer bound to distribute His Holy Spirit to all who submitted to the required ordinance.

This really has no Scriptural basis.

In closing what I am saying is that individuals who claim to be filled with or should I say gifted with God's Holy Spirit today are making a bold proclamation and they have no scriptural foundation holding up their claim.

Yes, they do have a scriptural foundation which you seem to have conveniently ignored, as per my points which you didn't address: Is it not his Spirit in us that brings life to our mortal bodies, gives us strength to stand against temptation, sanctifies us? Are our bodies not called temples of the Holy Spirit?

 

[Webb]

Hi Truth over Tradition:

My thought is you really need a comprehensive study of the Holy Spirit!!

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Jesus also said that "God is Spirit," so according to your reasoning, this is the equivalent of "God is breath." But that clearly makes little sense. Just because "spirit" can mean "breath" does not mean that in every instance it is to be translated as such. The NT clearly speaks of the Holy Spirit as though "it" were a Person.

spirit = breath = wind = unseen force or power
The Bible in John 4:24 does say that The Mighty One is a spirit and that passage is simply saying that God is an unseen force or power just as the wind is an unseen force. The scripture is not calling God a breath any more than it is calling Him a spirit but is using the term PNEUMA to express a trait of God. Spirit describes God in this text in much the same way the term genius would be used to describe Einstein were I to say: Einstein is a genius and those who cypher with him must do so intelligently. The term genius does to Einstein what the terms spirit/wind/breath (your pick) do for God in the passage in John.

Again, this is an exegetical fallacy to claim that breath and spirit carry the same meaning in all instances. Many Greek words have different nuances which can significantly change the meaning of what is being said.

Not making that claim, it is you who claim that I am making that claim. Passages like Romans 1:9 and 8:16 employ the word spirit, but there its meaning is a reference to the heart of man.
So yes it can have different meanings, but as far as what we are discussing the the context of that discussion the breath-synonomous definition fits.

Are seriously suggesting that we are no longer in the last days? I sure hope not.

Looking at the context:

Acts 2:16-20, 16
But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel:
"'And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams; even on my male servants and female servants in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy. And I will show wonders in the heavens above and signs on the earth below, blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke; the sun shall be turned to darkness and the moon to blood, before the day of the Lord comes, the great and magnificent day.

It seems as though "the last days" in which God pours out his Spirit are to continue up until "the day of the Lord...the great and magnificent day."

Does it seem that way because you and most in christendom have been taught that that is the case and thus believe it to be so despite the fact the the scriptures do not back that position? A position which believes that the "Day of The Lord" spoken of in scripture has not yet occurred. That Day was set to occur in the lifetimes of the people to whom the NT letters were written. It was so close in fact that they could see it approaching according to the Hebrew writer (Heb 10:25).
So yes, the last days spoken of by Joel have come and gone. The reason most don't believe it is because they assume based on man's religious dogma that the last days referenced were speaking of the last days of the Earth as opposed to what they actually were refering to. So rightly dividing the scriptures and finding out the "OF WHAT" the last days spoken of were about will help render a proper understanding of the text in question.

Every believer receives the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Yes, they do have a scriptural foundation which you seem to have conveniently ignored, as per my points which you didn't address: Is it not his Spirit in us that brings life to our mortal bodies, gives us strength to stand against temptation, sanctifies us? Are our bodies not called temples of the Holy Spirit?

What do you base such a bold proclamation on? I guess then every believer is taken to Heaven to sit on thrones judging Israel's 12 tribes as well. I'm being facetious, but the point is that such claims are made because scripture is taken out of context.
And to answer your question about OUR bodies being dwelling places of God's Holy Spirit I must say the answer is NO. It was not US to whom Paul was speaking in his Corinthian letter when he spoke of the saints being the dwelling place of God's Spirit. It was them. We err when we read ourselves and our contemporaries into scriptures that do not call for such.
And yes, it is God's Spirit that is the quickening force that gives us life just as Solomon expressed in Eccl. 12, BUT that spirit (unseen force or power) is not said to be the spirit that sanctifies. If that were the case then all men who live and breather whether good or evil could be considered as being filled with or gifted with God's Holy Spirit.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Hi Truth over Tradition:

My thought is you really need a comprehensive study of the Holy Spirit!!

Webb that what this thread is for. We each have our ideas but in the end hopefully we can use this forum to discover what ideas if any are true so that in the end we leave with truth whether or not truth is or isn't the "girl we brought to this dance".

 

[childeye]

Webb that what this thread is for. We each have our ideas but in the end hopefully we can use this forum to discover what ideas if any are true so that in the end we leave with truth whether or not truth is or isn't the "girl we brought to this dance".

As I said before. The Holy Spirit is Truth. Define what Truth brings to a man and you have defined the Holy Spirit. It or He bears witness to God and to His Christ revealing knowledge of God or rather God is the purpose of Truth meant for our education or edification.

 

[Webb]

So many comments from so many different ones (to my fragile mind at least) on this thread make it difficult to focus. Perhaps you could have better arrived at the truth of this subject by a one on one.

 

[Sparkey]

The Prophecy:

"Be glad then, you children of Zion, And rejoice in the LORD your God; For He has given you the former rain faithfully, And He will cause the rain to come down for you--The former rain, And the latter rain in the first month. The threshing floors shall be full of wheat, And the vats shall overflow with new wine and oil. "So I will restore to you the years that the swarming locust has eaten, The crawling locust, The consuming locust, And the chewing locust, My great army which I sent among you. You shall eat in plenty and be satisfied, And praise the name of the LORD your God, Who has dealt wondrously with you; And My people shall never be put to shame. Then you shall know that I am in the midst of Israel: I am the LORD your God And there is no other. My people shall never be put to shame.

"And it shall come to pass afterward That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your old men shall dream dreams, Your young men shall see visions. And also on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days.

"And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth: Blood and fire and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD. And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the LORD Shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be deliverance, As the LORD has said, Among the remnant whom the LORD calls." (Joe 2:23-32 NKJV)

​

Peter saw what had been promised in times past and declared to all gathered in Jerusalem, "this is that" (which has been prophesied by the Prophet Joel). This is that! He went on and continued preaching until those who heard him were pierced (struck deeply) in their hearts and cried out, "What shall we do???"

It was then that Peter told them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins," but he didn't leave it at that. Instead he gave them the Promise that had been given to Him by Jesus:

"... and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call." (Act 2:38-39 KJV)


We've seen how the Holy Spirit was given to Gentiles (the first being the house of Cornelius). Peter testified of this saying, "And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning." (Act 11:15 KJV). Peter made no distinction between what happened on the day of Pentecost (with tongues of fire) and what he saw and heard from the mouths of Gentiles. "And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?" (Act 10:45-47 KJV)

 

[Sparkey]

Pardon my late joining to this discussion, and also the fact that I've not read the thread (Bad Moderator) but I came by way of invitation from another thread and should like to post a couple of thoughts that come to me. I'll do the due diligence of reading and trying to understand what is said before doing that but will seek to explain why I believe that the Promise of the Father is to even as many as the Lord shall call. If that sounds like a Peter quote, good. You've studied your bible.

Now is the time for me to study what has been said here. It might take a moment or two as I'm also fairly taxed with all the school stuff (Mid-Terms and essay writing). But will look forward to this conversation.

Cordially,
Sparrow

 

[JLB]

And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever-- 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. John 14:16-17


JLB

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever-- 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. John 14:16-17

The 'you' of John 14 is who exactly? If you said Jesus' 11, then you'd be on to something! If you say that it's you and I, I'd question that logic. The 'you' Jesus said this to is the same 'you' he said this to in the same discourse:

'So, when the Advocate that I'm going to send you from the Father arrives (the Spirit of Truth that comes from the Father), that [one] will testify about me. And you are also to testify [about me], because you've been with me from the start.' 'Now, I'm telling you these things so you won't be stumbled; for, they're going to expel you from the synagogues… in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he's doing a service to God! But they'll do these things because they know neither the Father nor me.
'I've told you these things so that when their hour comes, you might remind them that I said these things to you. I didn't tell you these things in the beginning, because I was with you; however, now I'm going to the One who sent me. Yet, none of you asks, Where are you going?
'Because I've told you these things, your hearts are now filled with grief. But I'm telling you the truth when I say that my going away is for your own good. For, if I didn't go away, the Advocate wouldn't come to you. But after I go, I'll send him to you. And when that one gets here, he'll condemn the world over sin, over righteousness, and over judgments.
About sin: Because they have no faith in me.
About righteousness: Because I'm going to the Father and you won't see me anymore.
And about judgment: Because the Ruler of this arrangement has been judged.
'I still have many things to tell you, but you can't handle them right now. However, when that one (the Spirit of Truth) arrives, he will lead you to all truth. He won't be speaking from himself; he'll just tell you what he hears, and announce the things that are coming. That one will glorify me, because he will receive things from me and announce them to you. For, everything that the Father has is mine… and that's why I say that he will receive things from me and announce them to you! Because, after just a little while, you won't be able to look upon me… then, after a while, you will see me again.'

The context of the discourse makes it pretty clear who the 'you' in fact is.

 

[Sparkey]

The 'you' of John 14 is who exactly?

We might try to avoid binary arguments and black and white fallacies. Positions that are designed to exclude the middle indeed exclude the middle by design.

 

[smaller]

The 'you' of John 14 is who exactly?

We might try to avoid binary arguments and black and white fallacies. Positions that are designed to exclude the middle indeed exclude the middle by design.

The so called 'critics' of Christian matters or even with the bulk of doctrine/dogma infighting stems from a simple lack of examination of the most interesting plethora of typical 'excluded' sights.

The Word is vastly more interesting than most of us see.

And the critics just run some nonsense they saw in some sect up the proverbial pole and then gleefully delight in terming such fabrications 'christian' and then rip it to shreds.

I can't say their ripping isn't warranted, but what they ran up the pole to begin with certainly isn't 'thee sole definition' of things to begin with.

Build a strawman and they will come to burn it. And in the process they make their own strawman, claiming the strawman is christianity. It's really just a boring strawman burning. [cue in Neil Young-"it's only Castles Burning..."]

s

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

We might try to avoid binary arguments and black and white fallacies. Positions that are designed to exclude the middle indeed exclude the middle by design.

I'm sorry but I don't see what this has to do with what I stated. Yes/no and either/or questions have their place in many (not all, but many) discussions. Why is it to be assumed that their is a grey area in the words of Jesus quoted in John as it pertains to who His audience was?

 

[Guest]

[MENTION=45243]TRUTH over TRADITION[/MENTION] Either you're a mormon, jehovah witness or an atheist. I can't decide yet, lol.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

[MENTION=45243]TRUTH over TRADITION[/MENTION] Either you're a mormon, jehovah witness or an atheist. I can't decide yet, lol.

Urk, at this point I'm agnostic and skeptical as it relates to what is and what is not true in scripture. When I joined the forum and started this thread I was a devout Christian, sort of ordained even. I was never a Morman, Watchtower, or Adventist. I was actually an advocate for the non ecclesiastical forms of Christianity that wasn't 'churchianity'. The churches I was affiliated with through the years was the Baptist Church, Assemblies of God, and then the Church of Christ.

 

[Guest]

When I joined the forum and started this thread I was a devout Christian, sort of ordained even.

If you were a saved Christian, you can't become unsaved. Doesn't work that way, sorry.