What Do We Know About the Holy Spirit?

[Alabaster]

Dear TRUTH over TRADITION, Take away the "faith once delivered unto the saints" (Jude 3), and there is no Body of Christ, the Church. Where does sola fide come from St. Paul, but the Lutherans insist on that. Together, with 30,000 denominations, they all insist their teaching comes only from the Bible and only from God. They can't all be right, when they contradict each other on important points of doctrine.
As far as history proves the truth of Matthew 16:18, that the Church remains intact and inviolable, despite heresies that rise up against her, the truth is stated in the Creed of 381 AD of 318 Church Fathers, bishops of the whole Catholic Church in Nicaea in 381 AD, who never said "FILIOQUE". They wrote IN GREEK, NOT in Latin. In Erie PA Scott H.

It is plain that you just do not understand who the Church of Jesus Christ is, and you are absolutely rejecting the truth. How sad.

 

[francisdesales]

Dear TRUTH over TRADITION, Take away the "faith once delivered unto the saints" (Jude 3), and there is no Body of Christ, the Church. Where does sola fide come from St. Paul, but the Lutherans insist on that. Together, with 30,000 denominations, they all insist their teaching comes only from the Bible and only from God. They can't all be right, when they contradict each other on important points of doctrine.
As far as history proves the truth of Matthew 16:18, that the Church remains intact and inviolable, despite heresies that rise up against her, the truth is stated in the Creed of 381 AD of 318 Church Fathers, bishops of the whole Catholic Church in Nicaea in 381 AD, who never said "FILIOQUE". They wrote IN GREEK, NOT in Latin. In Erie PA Scott H.

You know, I don't want to pile on you, so why are you trying to drag me into this with your constant silliness. First, there was no Council in Nicea in 381. Why do you keep refering to the first Council of Constantinople, when CHALCEDON was THE Council that discussed and settled such issues? Has anything to do with the preceding Greek "robber council" that Leo at Chalcedon had to straighten out, or maybe the 28th cannon added illegally by the Constantinoplian Greeks? Secondly, not a single Greek Father wrote "THE FATHER ONLY" when discussing the Spirit's procession until after the innovator Photius, and several Greek Fathers clearly said "THE FATHER AND THE SON" before Chalcedon. So just leave it alone already and stop stirring the pot... I am beginning to see this as trolling, quite honestly, since these separated brothers could care less about the Filioque.

Regards

 

[Scotth1960]

It is plain that you just do not understand who the Church of Jesus Christ is, and you are absolutely rejecting the truth. How sad.

Dear Alabaster, False. You apparently have not read Church history. You apparently have not read the Creed of Constantinople I of 381 AD. This came long before your intepretation of the Bible. In Erie PA Scott Harrington
I absolutely do not reject the truth. I accept Jesus, and Jesus is the truth. Don't we agree on that?
What's the problem with your making false statements against me?

 

[Alabaster]

Dear Alabaster, False. You apparently have not read Church history. You apparently have not read the Creed of Constantinople I of 381 AD. This came long before your intepretation of the Bible.
I absolutely do not reject the truth. I accept Jesus, and Jesus is the truth. Don't we agree on that?
What's the problem with your making false statements against me?

Once again, you do not understand or even want to understand that the church of Jesus Christ is not an institution or an organization, but it is His people. That is what the word of God teaches, but of course, your precious membership in an organization teaches you otherwise.

Religiosity and creeds are nothing compared to knowing the Person called Jesus.

 

[Scotth1960]

You know, I don't want to pile on you, so why are you trying to drag me into this with your constant silliness. First, there was no Council in Nicea in 381. Why do you keep refering to the first Council of Constantinople, when CHALCEDON was THE Council that discussed and settled such issues? Has anything to do with the preceding Greek "robber council" that Leo at Chalcedon had to straighten out, or maybe the 28th cannon added illegally by the Constantinoplian Greeks? Secondly, not a single Greek Father wrote "THE FATHER ONLY" when discussing the Spirit's procession until after the innovator Photius, and several Greek Fathers clearly said "THE FATHER AND THE SON" before Chalcedon. So just leave it alone already and stop stirring the pot... I am beginning to see this as trolling, quite honestly, since these separated brothers could care less about the Filioque.

Regards

Francisdesales, I stand corrected. I meant council of Constantinople I in 381 AD. I meant the Creed of Nicea of 381 AD, for the Creed of Constantinople was just an expanding and renewing of the Creed of Nicea of 325 AD, and thus it is still known as the Nicene Creed, when technically it is actually the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed. I am not ignorant of the facts as you seem to imply. And you are slandering Photius, he is not an innovator. It is the popes who say Filioque who are innovators according to John 15:26. In Erie PA Scott Harrington

 

[Scotth1960]

Once again, you do not understand or even want to understand that the church of Jesus Christ is not an institution or an organization, but it is His people. That is what the word of God teaches, but of course, your precious membership in an organization teaches you otherwise.

Religiosity and creeds are nothing compared to knowing the Person called Jesus.

Dear Alabaster, Everything you have said is a Creed of some kind. You just do not phrase it in terms of "I believe ... " and then state what you believe from the Bible. We should not assume that the good men of Constantinople in 381 AD did not know the Person, Jesus Christ. Not at all. Your statement betrays an ignorance of facts, and it is just wrong and a sin against the truth to slander the good bishops of New Rome. In Erie PA Scott Harrington
PS We are just going to have to disagree, no matter how much you malign what I say. Perhaps you should just read John 15:26 before you dismiss what I say as not from Christ. John 15:26 is from Christ, and the OC believes (OC being Orthodox Church) believes in this verse especially. It may not matter to you, perhaps, but every verse in the 4 Gospels of the 4 Evangelists of Christ is the Holy Gospel of God. As is the rest of the NT. The OT is God's Word, too. I am no Marcionist.

 

[Alabaster]

Dear Alabaster, Everything you have said is a Creed of some kind. You just do not phrase it in terms of "I believe ... " and then state what you believe from the Bible. We should not assume that the good men of Constantinople in 381 AD did not know the Person, Jesus Christ. Not at all. Your statement betrays an ignorance of facts, and it is just wrong and a sin against the truth to slander the good bishops of New Rome. In Erie PA Scott Harrington
PS We are just going to have to disagree, no matter how much you malign what I say. Perhaps you should just read John 15:26 before you dismiss what I say as not from Christ. John 15:26 is from Christ, and the OC believes (OC being Orthodox Church) believes in this verse especially. It may not matter to you, perhaps, but every verse in the 4 Gospels of the 4 Evangelists of Christ is the Holy Gospel of God. As is the rest of the NT. The OT is God's Word, too. I am no Marcionist.

All that matters is that I know Jesus Christ. Thank God for those who have gone before us who knew Him and passed on the wonderful legacy. The Word of God is a treasure for us, preserved and conserved by God alone.

Constantly going on about creeds and councils and popes and the OC and people long dead with the reverence that belongs to Jesus Christ alone is simply religiosity---something Jesus abhors.

This is a thread about the Person of the Holy Spirit. Can you at least stick to the topic?

 

[Scotth1960]

All that matters is that I know Jesus Christ. Thank God for those who have gone before us who knew Him and passed on the wonderful legacy. The Word of God is a treasure for us, preserved and conserved by God alone.

Constantly going on about creeds and councils and popes and the OC and people long dead with the reverence that belongs to Jesus Christ alone is simply religiosity---something Jesus abhors.

This is a thread about the Person of the Holy Spirit. Can you at least stick to the topic?

Dear Alabaster, Peter,Paul, John, Andrew, James, are also "long dead" (sic), and yet you respect and believe them every time the testify to Jesus Christ in the NT. You or I would not know Jesus Christ were it not for the NT, and there would be no NT without the Orthodox Church. Why accept the NT and reject the Church that wrote the NT? That is illogical. 2 Peter 3 already warns us all against private interpretation of Scripture. Perhaps you can show that your interpretation is not private interpretation. Yes, the Church is just God's people. Don't assume there were no people of God before 1517 AD. The OC is just God's people among the Greeks, Russians, and all other nations who have accepted the ministry and preaching of the EOC. This Church goes back to St. Andrew the First-Called Apostle of Christ, and he preached in Byzantium and Scythia (Russia) and Patras, Greece, etc. many other places in the first century AD. In Erie PA Scott H. There is no contradiction between the Church as the people of God and the Church as the hierarchy of God. According to the NT, there are bishops, presbyters (elders/priests) and deacons in the church, as well as the people (laity). The church of Christ is not laity (people) only.
The priesthood of all believers includes bishops, priests and deacons, as well as the common laity (people of the church/of Christ).

 

[Scotth1960]

All that matters is that I know Jesus Christ. Thank God for those who have gone before us who knew Him and passed on the wonderful legacy. The Word of God is a treasure for us, preserved and conserved by God alone.

Constantly going on about creeds and councils and popes and the OC and people long dead with the reverence that belongs to Jesus Christ alone is simply religiosity---something Jesus abhors.

This is a thread about the Person of the Holy Spirit. Can you at least stick to the topic?

Dear Alabaster, Regarding the HS (Holy Spirit), what does Scripture say? Does not the Spirit of truth "proceed from the Father"? The Orthodox Church preaches this text of the NT. Other Christians do not teach this; WHY?
In Erie PA Scott H.

 

[Alabaster]

Dear Alabaster, Peter,Paul, John, Andrew, James, are also "long dead" (sic), and yet you respect and believe them every time the testify to Jesus Christ in the NT. You or I would not know Jesus Christ were it not for the NT, and there would be no NT without the Orthodox Church. Why accept the NT and reject the Church that wrote the NT? That is illogical. 2 Peter 3 already warns us all against private interpretation of Scripture. Perhaps you can show that your interpretation is not private interpretation. Yes, the Church is just God's people. Don't assume there were no people of God before 1517 AD. The OC is just God's people among the Greeks, Russians, and all other nations who have accepted the ministry and preaching of the EOC. This Church goes back to St. Andrew the First-Called Apostle of Christ, and he preached in Byzantium and Scythia (Russia) and Patras, Greece, etc. many other places in the first century AD. In Erie PA Scott H. There is no contradiction between the Church as the people of God and the Church as the hierarchy of God. According to the NT, there are bishops, presbyters (elders/priests) and deacons in the church, as well as the people (laity). The church of Christ is not laity (people) only.
The priesthood of all believers includes bishops, priests and deacons, as well as the common laity (people of the church/of Christ).

Blah, blah, blah. Must you drone on about the same old stuff? This is a thread about Holy Spirit. Care to speak of Him? Care to give Him honour?

There is no hierarchy of God. We are all royal priests of God.

 

[Alabaster]

Dear Alabaster, Regarding the HS (Holy Spirit), what does Scripture say? Does not the Spirit of truth "proceed from the Father"? The Orthodox Church preaches this text of the NT. Other Christians do not teach this; WHY?
In Erie PA Scott H.

The Bible teaches it all. Why must you make everything about your church affiliation? Do you realize that it appears to be your idol?

Can you not talk about Holy Spirit without mentioning your church?

What does Holy Spirit speak to you about Himself? Do not answer with anything from what the OC says. What does the word of God tell you?

 

[Scotth1960]

You know, I don't want to pile on you, so why are you trying to drag me into this with your constant silliness. First, there was no Council in Nicea in 381. Why do you keep refering to the first Council of Constantinople, when CHALCEDON was THE Council that discussed and settled such issues? Has anything to do with the preceding Greek "robber council" that Leo at Chalcedon had to straighten out, or maybe the 28th cannon added illegally by the Constantinoplian Greeks? Secondly, not a single Greek Father wrote "THE FATHER ONLY" when discussing the Spirit's procession until after the innovator Photius, and several Greek Fathers clearly said "THE FATHER AND THE SON" before Chalcedon. So just leave it alone already and stop stirring the pot... I am beginning to see this as trolling, quite honestly, since these separated brothers could care less about the Filioque.

Regards

Dear Francisdesales, All the Church Fathers taught "from the Father". That means the same thing as "from the Father alone". So your point is moot regarding Saint Photios; he did NOT teach anything NEW. His Gospel is the Gospel of God in John 15:26, and he agreed with Jesus Christ, not against Jesus Christ. Only Augustine of Hippo among all the Church Fathers insisted that the Spirit is the "mutual love" of Father and Son together, thus, if one is logical, makes the Son a father of the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit a divine grandson of God the Father, and God the Father then becomes God the grandfather. Go figure! In Erie PA
All the talk of the Spirit proceeding from the Father "principally" (mainly) is just rationalizing and obfuscation. The Son is still a cause, together with the Father, of the Spirit, and that makes a Binity /Duality within the Godhead. Scott H.

 

[francisdesales]

Francisdesales, I stand corrected. I meant council of Constantinople I in 381 AD. I meant the Creed of Nicea of 381 AD, for the Creed of Constantinople was just an expanding and renewing of the Creed of Nicea of 325 AD, and thus it is still known as the Nicene Creed, when technically it is actually the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed. I am not ignorant of the facts as you seem to imply. And you are slandering Photius, he is not an innovator. It is the popes who say Filioque who are innovators according to John 15:26. In Erie PA Scott Harrington

Photius was a layman who usurped the position of Bishop of Constantinople from Ignatius. Then he had the audacity to try to excommunicate the bishop of Rome. That's when the 8th Ecumenical Council had to set matters straight and booted Photius out of his absconded position, a Council of mostly Greeks. Have you ever looked at his writing, "Mystagogia"? This is the person you are defending as a "saint"? The fact remains that no single Greek Father ever wrote "the Father only" until the layman Photius. Several wrote "And the Son". The Latins do not intend "and the Son" to mean two principles, and once the Greeks calmed down and listened to the explanation (as at Florence), they had no problems with that.

And after we discuss the 8th Council, we can discuss how the Greeks would be considered heretics (rather than just schismatics) if the "robber council" of Ephesus had not been overturned by Leo the Great in a mere two years. The Orthodox cannot even convene a Council anymore - and the Bishop of Rome overturns a Council so quickly - and it is accepted! No wonder they won't convene another one... If that is not implied Papal Supremacy understood, I don't know what is.

That in itself is quite interesting, that the Pope had the supremacy to overturn a convened, false Council in the East, where an orthodox Bishop of Constantinople was murdered (Flavin) while the orthodox Greek bishops provided no support. It would have been quite a sight to see the Latin deacon present (Hilary) shout one word after watching this spectacle "CONTRADICITUR" (It is contradicted). That one legal word ended the farce of a Council. In two short years, the "most Holy Ecumenical Council of Ephesus" in 449 became the "robber council of Ephesus", the mitred assasin was ousted, Flavin was canonized and the true assembly of a Council was brought together at Chalcedon...

CONTRADICITUR... brings goose bumps to my skin, I can imagine the look of relief on the cowed but orthodox bishops in attendance, thanking God for the See of Rome and Leo...

Maybe you should read some history other than Orthodox propaganda sheets...

Regards

 

[Alabaster]

Once again, a thread gets bogged down by side conversations about Catholicism vs Orthodoxy.

 

[Scotth1960]

Blah, blah, blah. Must you drone on about the same old stuff? This is a thread about Holy Spirit. Care to speak of Him? Care to give Him honour?

There is no hierarchy of God. We are all royal priests of God.

Dear Alabaster, You said, "There is no hierarchy of God". Have you read the NT. What do you do with the texts in the epistle of St. Timothy which say bishop, presbyter (elder/priest) and deacon. That certainly indicates a hierarchy of some kind. How come you ignore some Scriptures you do not like from the NT?
In Erie Scott Harrington
As for giving honor to the Holy Spirit, I believe what I have said about Him "proceeding from the Father" (John 15:26) is intending to do that. The Church also prays to Him, the Heavenly King: "O Heavenly King, the Comforter, the Spirit of Truth, Who art everywhere, and fillest all things, Treasury of Goodness, and Giver of Life,Come and dwell within us, and cleanse us from every impurity, and save our souls, O Good One."
God bless you. You just ignore some things from the NT, truly. You just follow Protestant tradition, whether you like it or not, you don't reject a hierarchy of some sort of your own, an evangelical tradition that only came about around the time of John Wycliffe. This was produced by Roman Catholicism, and left the Protestants as orphans of the Filioque disease.
:nod

 

[Scotth1960]

Photius was a layman who usurped the position of Bishop of Constantinople from Ignatius. Then he had the audacity to try to excommunicate the bishop of Rome. That's when the 8th Ecumenical Council had to set matters straight and booted Photius out of his absconded position, a Council of mostly Greeks. Have you ever looked at his writing, "Mystagogia"? This is the person you are defending as a "saint"? The fact remains that no single Greek Father ever wrote "the Father only" until the layman Photius. Several wrote "And the Son". The Latins do not intend "and the Son" to mean two principles, and once the Greeks calmed down and listened to the explanation (as at Florence), they had no problems with that.

And after we discuss the 8th Council, we can discuss how the Greeks would be considered heretics (rather than just schismatics) if the "robber council" of Ephesus had not been overturned by Leo the Great in a mere two years. The Orthodox cannot even convene a Council anymore - and the Bishop of Rome overturns a Council so quickly - and it is accepted! No wonder they won't convene another one... If that is not implied Papal Supremacy understood, I don't know what is.

That in itself is quite interesting, that the Pope had the supremacy to overturn a convened, false Council in the East, where an orthodox Bishop of Constantinople was murdered (Flavin) while the orthodox Greek bishops provided no support. It would have been quite a sight to see the Latin deacon present (Hilary) shout one word after watching this spectacle "CONTRADICITUR" (It is contradicted). That one legal word ended the farce of a Council. In two short years, the "most Holy Ecumenical Council of Ephesus" in 449 became the "robber council of Ephesus", the mitred assasin was ousted, Flavin was canonized and the true assembly of a Council was brought together at Chalcedon...

CONTRADICITUR... brings goose bumps to my skin, I can imagine the look of relief on the cowed but orthodox bishops in attendance, thanking God for the See of Rome and Leo...

Maybe you should read some history other than Orthodox propaganda sheets...

Regards

Dear Francisdesales, Saint Leo III forbad the Filioque. Was he wrong to do that? That contradicts later popes who insist on it? Centering everything on what the Pope of Rome says does not solve the problem of which popes of Rome we will believe, because they teach contradictory doctrines. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

 

[Scotth1960]

Photius was a layman who usurped the position of Bishop of Constantinople from Ignatius. Then he had the audacity to try to excommunicate the bishop of Rome. That's when the 8th Ecumenical Council had to set matters straight and booted Photius out of his absconded position, a Council of mostly Greeks. Have you ever looked at his writing, "Mystagogia"? This is the person you are defending as a "saint"? The fact remains that no single Greek Father ever wrote "the Father only" until the layman Photius. Several wrote "And the Son". The Latins do not intend "and the Son" to mean two principles, and once the Greeks calmed down and listened to the explanation (as at Florence), they had no problems with that.

And after we discuss the 8th Council, we can discuss how the Greeks would be considered heretics (rather than just schismatics) if the "robber council" of Ephesus had not been overturned by Leo the Great in a mere two years. The Orthodox cannot even convene a Council anymore - and the Bishop of Rome overturns a Council so quickly - and it is accepted! No wonder they won't convene another one... If that is not implied Papal Supremacy understood, I don't know what is.

That in itself is quite interesting, that the Pope had the supremacy to overturn a convened, false Council in the East, where an orthodox Bishop of Constantinople was murdered (Flavin) while the orthodox Greek bishops provided no support. It would have been quite a sight to see the Latin deacon present (Hilary) shout one word after watching this spectacle "CONTRADICITUR" (It is contradicted). That one legal word ended the farce of a Council. In two short years, the "most Holy Ecumenical Council of Ephesus" in 449 became the "robber council of Ephesus", the mitred assasin was ousted, Flavin was canonized and the true assembly of a Council was brought together at Chalcedon...

CONTRADICITUR... brings goose bumps to my skin, I can imagine the look of relief on the cowed but orthodox bishops in attendance, thanking God for the See of Rome and Leo...

Maybe you should read some history other than Orthodox propaganda sheets...

Regards

Dear francisdesales, While you attempt to throw some stones at Photios of Constantinople, and question whether or not he was a saint, you sidestep the issue of John 15:26 every time it is brought up. You refer constantly to papal tradition and papal authority/infallibility and "supremacy". What is supreme and saintly about Pope Sergius III of Rome. Where is it infallible and in keeping with the sanctity of St. Peter, who was TRULY a saint of God, to consider the following reality of this pope of Rome. "Sergius II was a pope of the Roman Catholic Church in two intervals occurring between 897 and 14 April 911. Because Sergius III was possibly the only pope known to have ordered the murder of another pope and the only pope to have fathered an illegitimate son who later became pope (John XI), his pontificate has been described as "dismal and disgraceful." http:// en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Sergius_III

I grant you, most popes of Rome are probably saintly and without major fault, but the whole theory of every pope of Rome being infallible and the teacher of all Christians, is shown false by this pope. People teach with their actions, not just with their words. What did Pope Sergius III mean to teach the RCC by having someone murdered or murdering, whatever method he used. Again, I say this not out of animosity for the popes of Rome. Some of them the Orthodox Church considers saints, like Leo I, Leo II, Leo III, and Gregory I are all considered to be saints by the EOC. In Erie PA Scott Harrington

 

[Scotth1960]

Let's talk about the matter of the Holy Spirit or should I say Separate (special) Breath from God that was promised by Jesus.

In the book of John, Jesus says the following to his 12:



This text marks the initial promise of the HS given by Jesus to those He would leave in the world after his resurrection. The fulfillment of what Jesus promised above came at Pentecost, most would agree. Notice in Acts 2 who received the Holy Breath at Pentecost, it was Jesus' disciples, not everyone.
Now just to be clear. God can give this SPECIAL BREATH (Holy Spirit) to anyone He choses at anytime He desires. I am not saying God doesn't or hasn't given it to anyone since the Bible times, but what I am saying is that the special gift of Holy Spirit was promised by Jesus to a select group in His discourse in the book of John and we should not look at this promise as if He were speaking to us. Notice how the 'who' Jesus was addressing is identified in chapter 15:26-16:4

Dear Truth over Tradition, Part of what the HS (Holy Spirit) does is convict sinners of their sins. This does not mean only the sins of the popes of Rome, some of whom were murderers. While a person may have not murdered, he may have sinned in many other terrible ways. Thus we all need to repent. I need to repent before God. We all need God's mercy. The Holy Spirit is "the Comforter" (Jn. 14:26. 15:26) who comes from the Father to teach us all truth (Jn. 16:13) and to fill us with Himself, to bring us to the Father and to Jesus Christ, to the Father through Jesus Christ. We all need the Holy Spirit always. It is impossible to please God or have faith, or do any good works, without the presence and help of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit produces faith in us. In Erie PA Scott Harrington

 

[Alabaster]

Dear Alabaster, You said, "There is no hierarchy of God". Have you read the NT. What do you do with the texts in the epistle of St. Timothy which say bishop, presbyter (elder/priest) and deacon. That certainly indicates a hierarchy of some kind. How come you ignore some Scriptures you do not like from the NT?

There is a line of authority in the chuirches we congregate in. That is for order, and is not a 'hierarchy of God'. Every believer is equal before God in our giftings and callings. There is no Body part that is more estimable than another. God says so.

As for giving honor to the Holy Spirit, I believe what I have said about Him "proceeding from the Father" (John 15:26) is intending to do that. The Church also prays to Him, the Heavenly King: "O Heavenly King, the Comforter, the Spirit of Truth, Who art everywhere, and fillest all things, Treasury of Goodness, and Giver of Life,Come and dwell within us, and cleanse us from every impurity, and save our souls, O Good One."

Who manufactured that one? We pray to the Father through Jesus Christ.

God bless you. You just ignore some things from the NT, truly. You just follow Protestant tradition, whether you like it or not, you don't reject a hierarchy of some sort of your own, an evangelical tradition that only came about around the time of John Wycliffe. This was produced by Roman Catholicism, and left the Protestants as orphans of the Filioque disease.
:nod

I IGNORE NOTHING. I shun religion, but seek only Christ.

 

[Alabaster]

Dear Alabaster, Regarding the HS (Holy Spirit), what does Scripture say? Does not the Spirit of truth "proceed from the Father"? The Orthodox Church preaches this text of the NT. Other Christians do not teach this; WHY?
In Erie PA Scott H.

All good things proceed from the Father.