What does it mean to be born again?

[Jim Parker]

According to the scriptures, I have to be born of the water and of the Spirit. How do I do this?

Get baptized. That's what the church taught from the beginning. It wasn't until the reformation, some 1500+ years later, that people started teaching that baptism was not necessary.
Jesus said it was. (Mat 28:19)

Justin Martyr (100 – 165 AD) The First Apology, Chapter LXI, “Christian Baptism”
I will also relate the manner in which we dedicated ourselves to God when we had been made new through Christ; lest, if we omit this, we seem to be unfair in the explanation we are making. As many as are persuaded and believe that what we teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, are instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we praying and fasting with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, “Except ye be born again, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.”Now, that it is impossible for those who have once been born to enter into their mothers’ wombs, is manifest to all. And how those who have sinned and repent shall escape their sins, is declared by Esaias the prophet, as I wrote above; he thus speaks: “Wash you, make you clean;...”


And for this [rite] we have learned from the apostles this reason. Since at our birth we were born without our own knowledge or choice, by our parents coming together, and were brought up in bad habits and wicked training; in order that we may not remain the children of necessity and of ignorance, but may become the children of choice and knowledge, and may obtain in the water the remission of sins formerly committed, there is pronounced over him who chooses to be born again, and has repented of his sins, the name of God the Father and Lord of the universe; ...


St. Basil on Baptism as being born again of water and spirit (4th Century)
Hence it follows that the answer to our question why the water was associated to the Spirit is clear: the reason is because in baptism two ends were proposed; on the one hand, the destroying of the body of sin, that it may never bear fruit unto death; on the other hand, our living unto the Spirit, and having our fruit in holiness; the water receiving the body as in a tomb prefigures death, while the Spirit pours in the quickening power, renewing our souls from the deadness of sin into their original life. This then is what it is to be born again of water and of the Spirit, the being made dead is effected in the water, while our life is wrought in us through the Spirit.
Nicene and Post Nicene Fathers, Vol 8, St. Basil, "On the Spirit", Ch. XV (My underline)

St. John Chrysostom on Baptism, Homily XXV (4th Century)
That the need of water is absolute and indispensable, you may learn in this way. On the occasion, when the Holy Spirit had flown down before the water was applied, the Apostle did not stay at this point, but, as though the water were necessary and not superfluous, observe what he says; “Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?”
What then is the use of the water? ........ In baptism are fulfilled the pledges of our covenant with God; burial and death, resurrection and life; and these take place all at once. For when we immerse our heads in the water, the old man is buried as in a tomb below, and wholly sunk forever; then as we rise again, the new man rises in its stead. ........ To show that what we say is no conjecture, hear Paul saying, “We are buried with Him by Baptism into death”: and again, “Our old man is crucified with Him”: and again: We have been planted together in the likeness of His death.” (RO vi.4-6) And not only is Baptism called a “cross” but the “cross” is called “Baptism.” “With the Baptism,” saith Christ, “that I am Baptized withal shall ye be baptized” (Mark X.39): and “I have a baptism to be baptized with” (LK xii.50) (which ye know not); for as we easily dip and lift our heads again, so He also easily died and rose again when He willed,...
Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 14, p. 89

 

[Jim Parker]

"No one can use the argument that since spiritual rebirth precedes water baptism Jesus could not have been talking about the water of baptism in John 3."

Huh?
I think you are conflating the Baptism in the Holy Spirit with the drawing of the Holy Spirit toward salvation. They are different.

There is no set order.
In Acts the Household of Cornelius was Baptized in the Holy Spirit before being baptized in water
The Samaritan believers were not baptized in the Holy Spirit after their water baptism until Peter came an laid hands on them.
In Ephesus, Paul baptized the believers in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and then laid hands on the and they received the Holy Spirit.

 

[MarkT]

But that would mean there is no necessity to be born of the Spirit. You're saying the gift of eternal life in the kingdom of heaven occurs from the water alone.

I don't know how you understand it Jethro. I didn't say water alone. Jesus said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. John 3:5 So it's not water alone. However water is essential for life. Without water, the branch withers. John 15:6 The Spirit builds the thing, but the living water gives it life, therefore the thing is conceived by the Spirit and the water works in conjunction with the Spirit to give it life. What am I talking about? I'm talking about the thing which is spirit, which is analogous to the body, in which we abide. I'm talking about that which is born of the Spirit of God.

How are you going to enter the kingdom without a body? Flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom. 1 Cor. 15:50 So how can the soul enter the kingdom if the physical body is not allowed? Jesus said one must be born anew. I'm not talking about a rebirth or a renewal of the first birth. I'm talking about a second birth. In that sense Paul says, 'If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body." 1 Cor. 15:44 He says 'also' to indicate a second body.

I reckon it to be the holy of holies, the innermost part of the temple, which we are, in which the Father and the Son will make their home with him. John 14:23
Jesus answered him, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Huh?
I think you are conflating the Baptism in the Holy Spirit with the drawing of the Holy Spirit toward salvation. They are different.

There is no set order.
In Acts the Household of Cornelius was Baptized in the Holy Spirit before being baptized in water
The Samaritan believers were not baptized in the Holy Spirit after their water baptism until Peter came an laid hands on them.
In Ephesus, Paul baptized the believers in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and then laid hands on the and they received the Holy Spirit.

You have no argument with me. Jesus was not just speaking poetically when he said the coming and going of the Spirit was like the unseen wind. He moves when and where he wants in people and is not bound by order of events. I personally use the Cornelius story to debunk the argument that one must be water baptized to be born again by the Spirit.

But anyway, you're probably misunderstanding the argument I was addressing.
The argument was made that since spiritual birth precedes water baptism it's impossible that Jesus was referring to water baptism when he talked about being born of water then being born of the Spirit.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I don't know how you understand it Jethro. I didn't say water alone. Jesus said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. John 3:5 So it's not water alone. However water is essential for life. Without water, the branch withers. John 15:6 The Spirit builds the thing, but the living water gives it life, therefore the thing is conceived by the Spirit and the water works in conjunction with the Spirit to give it life. What am I talking about? I'm talking about the thing which is spirit, which is analogous to the body, in which we abide. I'm talking about that which is born of the Spirit of God.

How are you going to enter the kingdom without a body? Flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom. 1 Cor. 15:50 So how can the soul enter the kingdom if the physical body is not allowed? Jesus said one must be born anew. I'm not talking about a rebirth or a renewal of the first birth. I'm talking about a second birth. In that sense Paul says, 'If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body." 1 Cor. 15:44 He says 'also' to indicate a second body.

I reckon it to be the holy of holies, the innermost part of the temple, which we are, in which the Father and the Son will make their home with him. John 14:23
Jesus answered him, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

Not getting your point.

 

[Jim Parker]

The argument was made that since spiritual birth precedes water baptism it's impossible that Jesus was referring to water baptism when he talked about being born of water then being born of the Spirit.

Yeah. I agree. That's not much of an argument.

 

[eddif]

Matthew 13:37 KJV
He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

Stop
Who sows the good seed?
Jesus
Not.
My denomination, my version, my buddies version, my non-denomination, the true sons of God church, etc.
So then all these warnings:
Matthew 13:18 KJV
Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
21 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

My heart needs the word
My mind needs the word
My spirit needs the word

The Word made flesh / jesus

The natural creation by God has hints of birth. If we get totally in charge of planting our GMO Gospel, a miscarriage is possible.

Just be wise in the new birth conception, and carry it full term.

eddif

 

[Jim Parker]

The Word made flesh / jesus

Good post.

One point.

The concept the Jesus is the "word" (like spoken or written word) of God is a result of the translation of the Greek word "LOGOS" as "word." Since the average English reader does not know the meaning of "LOGOS" he assumes that "word" means exactly what it means in English.

From: https://www.britannica.com/topic/logos

Logos, ( Greek: “word,” “reason,” or “plan”) plural logoi, in Greek philosophy and theology, the divine reason implicit in the cosmos, ordering it and giving it form and meaning. Though the concept defined by the term logos is found in Greek, Indian, Egyptian, and Persian philosophical and theological systems, it became particularly significant in Christian writings and doctrines to describe or define the role of Jesus Christ as the principle of God active in the creation and the continuous structuring of the cosmos and in revealing the divine plan of salvation to man. It thus underlies the basic Christian doctrine of the preexistence of Jesus.

There's more worthwhile, good information at the web location above.

iakov the fool

 

[Kidron]

Good post.

One point.

The concept the Jesus is the "word"

"In The Beginning was the Word", ......."Jesus is the Word made flesh"........"and GOD >said< let there be"........"Jesus was in the world and the world was MADE by HIM"..... ... "All things were made by HIM"........."the words I speak are spirit and life"......

 

[Robert Lindstrom]

This is interesting.
Welcome to CFnet.
There is a big denomination which believes that the water mentioned in John 3:5 is the water of baptism.

I'll tell you why I do not agree.

1. Nicodemus specifically asks Jesus how it could be possible for a man to enter a second time into his mother's womb. It seems to me that N is referring specifically to the natural birth which includes water.
Jesus is saying one must be born of water and of spirit. N understood the water of natural birth and Jesus did not correct him.

2. If the denomination I mentioned is right, then the ORDER of John 3 in incorrect.
Jesus said that to be born again one must be born of water AND the spirit. John 3:5

To be born from above (born again is an incorrect translation) one must FIRST come to be a believer, believe in Christ - that He is their savior. THEN one gets baptized. So, FIRST one receives the spirit of God, THEN he gets baptized.

Since Jesus said one must be born of WATER and then SPIRIT, it seems to me the order would be reversed and I do believe Jesus had the correct order! So, yes, I believe water refers to natural birth.

Wondering

If JESUS was talking about a natural water birth then why would He say, you must be born of the water? He would just say: "you must be born of the Spirit."

JESUS is talking about being born of the water and that is water baptism.

How does water baptism get rid of our sins? According to scripture when one goes down in that watery grave, one calls on the name of JESUS Christ and God does an operation right then and cuts away our sins from our spirit.

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

We are spiritual Jews when we have our heart circumcised with the circumcision of Christ.


Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

So when we do this, we are buried with Him in baptism and He cuts our sins away in putting off the sins of the flesh by a spiritual scalpel, then when we come up out of that watery grave we are risen with Him THROUGH FAITH of the OPERATION of God. It is by our faith that this is done because God does this operation. It is NOT works but by our faith that He does this operation and removes the sins in our heart which is to say our spirit.

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

If we are baptized into JESUS Christ, we are baptized into His death. We take on His name in baptism. That is the WHOLE reason He inherited this name JESUS from the Father so that He has a name above every name which will destroy the works of the devil.

Eph 3:14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Eph 3:15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,


Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Water baptism does NOW save us. We never called on the nameJESUS in our water birth.

Paul the apostle had to do this. He saw JESUS and was given the will of God for his life, got healed from being blind AND STILL he was told to get baptized to wash his sins away by calling on the name of the Lord JESUS.

Act 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

So the bottom line is, JESUS does this operation that is done without hands when we go and get baptized in the name of JESUS Christ for the remission of our sins. He cuts the foreskin of our hearts by our faith, if we believe He does this, because without faith we will not please God.

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Then when we receive the Holy Ghost, we are born of the Spirit.

Rom_8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

 

[Jim Parker]

1. Nicodemus specifically asks Jesus how it could be possible for a man to enter a second time into his mother's womb. It seems to me that N is referring specifically to the natural birth which includes water.
Jesus is saying one must be born of water and of spirit. N understood the water of natural birth and Jesus did not correct him.

That is an argument from silence.
Note that in The Acts of the Apostles, everyone who became a believer was baptized in water.
Note also that Jesus specifically commanded the disciples to baptize all nations in the name of the Father, son, and Holy Spirit. That's not baptism in the Holy Spirit.

To be born from above (born again is an incorrect translation) one must FIRST come to be a believer, believe in Christ - that He is their savior. THEN one gets baptized. So, FIRST one receives the spirit of God, THEN he gets baptized.

(1) The concept of "born again" in introduced by Nicodemus. His response shows that he understood Jesus to mean "born again."
(2) Believing is NOT the same as being baptized in the Holy Spirit. All the the disciples who were in the upper room (Acts 2) had already believed and followed Jesus around Israel for 3.5 years. They were already believers when they were all baptized in the Holy Spirit. That means belief and Baptism in the Holy Spirit are two separate things.
(3) Jesus would not have commanded His disciples to baptize all nations if He being born the first time was the baptism in water to which He referred at John 3:5.

Since Jesus said one must be born of WATER and then SPIRIT, it seems to me the order would be reversed and I do believe Jesus had the correct order! So, yes, I believe water refers to natural birth.

Jesus didn't say "and then" Spirit.
John 3:5 (RSV) Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

The accounts of acts showed that the order was not prescribed. The house of Cornelius was baptized in the Spirit before being baptized in water. (Acts 10) The Samaritans were baptized in the Spirit after being baptized in water.
Act 8:14-15 (RSV) Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Sama'ria had received the word of God, they sent to them Peter and John, who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit; for it had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

The accounts of acts also, without exception, show that everyone who believed was baptized in water.

Paul said that, in baptism, we are united to Christ in His death and resurrection and that, since Christ was raised from the dead, we also will be raised from the dead. (Ro 6: 3-11 RSV)
Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.

We know that our old self was crucified with him so that the sinful body might be destroyed, and we might no longer be enslaved to sin. For he who has died is freed from sin. But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. For we know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. The death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

Now who do you imagine might possibly want a Christian to think that baptism is not necessary?


iakov the fool 2

 

[Robert Lindstrom]

Robert. Scripture does not say that if you are not born again you go to hell. What it does say is that unless you are born again you cannot enter the kingdom of God. (John 3:5). This is probably the most fundamental verse in all of scripture that prescribes the absolute criteria for anyone to enter into God’s kingdom. You see God's kingdom is eternal so the man or woman who is born of God’s spirit inherits eternal life.

And there are two requirements as spelled out in this verse: 1 to be born of water and 2, to be born of the Spirit. What does it mean to be born of water? Jesus answers that question immediately after stating it by putting it another way ... and that is, ‘that which is born of the flesh is flesh ...’ Robert, every person who has ever lived since Adam and Eve has been born of water which means of course that you qualify thus far.

Someone else on this thread said that being born of the Spirit is not man’s choice, and I agree with them. It is God’s choosing. And verse 8, to my mind confirms it. If man was able to choose to be born again, then the wind would be at the behest of man. Plainly it isn’t, because while we see the evidence of it, man cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. And so it is with ever one that is born of the Spirit.

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Born of the water and born of the Spirit is born AGAIN. Otherwise why did He say Born AGAIN? Except a man be born of the water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Why be redundant with born of the water if we already have been from our mother's womb? Why repeat Himself? Why not just say, you must be born of the Spirit?

 

[eddif]

I John 4:2
Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

The natural birth of water is / was needed for Jesus.

We need entrance into physical life or the denial of our reality is at question.

Way heavy for a Mississippi redneck.

eddif

 

[MarkT]

Not getting your point.

The point is this water is from above - the word of God. A man is born anew of imperishable seed through the living and abiding word of God. 1 Peter 1:23 John's baptism of repentance prepares the way of the Lord, an appeal to God for a clear conscience, but one is only born again by hearing our Master's voice.

 

[eddif]

Romans 8:3 KJV
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Romans 7:25 is Paul's confession of having come in the flesh.

Repentance is our confession (?).

eddif

 

[GodsGrace]

If JESUS was talking about a natural water birth then why would He say, you must be born of the water? He would just say: "you must be born of the Spirit."

JESUS is talking about being born of the water and that is water baptism.

Some churches do take this position. They will also refer to the fact that baptism is represented in the O.T.
This is also what I was taught years ago. But the time came when I had to really look into this and, at that point, I could no longer accept that the water in John 3:5 is referring to baptism.

In baptism we receive the Holy Spirit. So why would Jesus say: You must be born of water AND the spirit. Do you believe we don't have the Holy Spirit unless we're baptized? (I'm not saying I believe baptism is not necessary).

In the very next sentence Jesus says: What is born of the flesh is flesh. Wouldn't this be referring to the natural birth of a person? Water is present when one is born naturally.

John 3:7
Jesus says that one must be born AGAIN. Or born from above. So you're born one time naturally, and then you must be born again, a second time, and this time spiritually.

Nicodemus even asks Him how one could get back into the mothers's womb. John 3:4

water baptism get rid of our sins? According to scripture when one goes down in that watery grave, one calls on the name of JESUS Christ and God does an operation right then and cuts away our sins from our spirit.

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

We are spiritual Jews when we have our heart circumcised with the circumcision of Christ.


Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

So when we do this, we are buried with Him in baptism and He cuts our sins away in putting off the sins of the flesh by a spiritual scalpel, then when we come up out of that watery grave we are risen with Him THROUGH FAITH of the OPERATION of God. It is by our faith that this is done because God does this operation. It is NOT works but by our faith that He does this operation and removes the sins in our heart which is to say our spirit.

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

If we are baptized into JESUS Christ, we are baptized into His death. We take on His name in baptism. That is the WHOLE reason He inherited this name JESUS from the Father so that He has a name above every name which will destroy the works of the devil.

Eph 3:14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Eph 3:15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,


Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Water baptism does NOW save us. We never called on the nameJESUS in our water birth.

Paul the apostle had to do this. He saw JESUS and was given the will of God for his life, got healed from being blind AND STILL he was told to get baptized to wash his sins away by calling on the name of the Lord JESUS.

Act 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

So the bottom line is, JESUS does this operation that is done without hands when we go and get baptized in the name of JESUS Christ for the remission of our sins. He cuts the foreskin of our hearts by our faith, if we believe He does this, because without faith we will not please God.

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Then when we receive the Holy Ghost, we are born of the Spirit.

Rom_8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Here you're explaining what baptism represents and does.
I have no argument with this.

I'll only comment on your last paragraph and verse:
Romans 8:9
It brings up the flesh. And, in fact, Jesus did say in John 3:6 that what is born of the flesh is flesh and what is born of the spirit is spirit. He definitely distinguishes between the flesh and the spirit, just as he did when speaking to Nicodemus.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

That is an argument from silence.
Note that in The Acts of the Apostles, everyone who became a believer was baptized in water.
Note also that Jesus specifically commanded the disciples to baptize all nations in the name of the Father, son, and Holy Spirit. That's not baptism in the Holy Spirit.

Am I giving the impression that I don't think it's necessary to be baptized?
If so, I state here that I believe it is. I'm not speaking of baptism in the Holy Spirit either.

1) The concept of "born again" in introduced by Nicodemus. His response shows that he understood Jesus to mean "born again."
(2) Believing is NOT the same as being baptized in the Holy Spirit. All the the disciples who were in the upper room (Acts 2) had already believed and followed Jesus around Israel for 3.5 years. They were already believers when they were all baptized in the Holy Spirit. That means belief and Baptism in the Holy Spirit are two separate things.
(3) Jesus would not have commanded His disciples to baptize all nations if He being born the first time was the baptism in water to which He referred at John 3:5.

I agree with all you say except one point.
You say Nicodemus introduced the concept of being "born again."
It seems to me that Jesus introduces this concept in John 3:3
Please comment.

(I was just saying in my previous post that first one believes and then he is baptized.)


Jesus didn't say "and then" Spirit.
John 3:5 (RSV) Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

The accounts of acts showed that the order was not prescribed. The house of Cornelius was baptized in the Spirit before being baptized in water. (Acts 10) The Samaritans were baptized in the Spirit after being baptized in water.
Act 8:14-15 (RSV) Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Sama'ria had received the word of God, they sent to them Peter and John, who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit; for it had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

The accounts of acts also, without exception, show that everyone who believed was baptized in water.

As to the order, again I say that I was referring to the fact that one must believe FIRST and then be baptized. Some denominations do this in the opposite order and I think it creates confusion. A person must willingly be baptized, IMHO. I don't understand how it could be efficacious to baptize anyone who is not a believer - I'm referring to water baptism.

Once one is a believer the order of baptism of the Holy Spirit and baptism of water does not have a set recipe and can change from person to person.

Paul said that, in baptism, we are united to Christ in His death and resurrection and that, since Christ was raised from the dead, we also will be raised from the dead. (Ro 6: 3-11 RSV)
Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.

We know that our old self was crucified with him so that the sinful body might be destroyed, and we might no longer be enslaved to sin. For he who has died is freed from sin. But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. For we know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. The death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

Now who do you imagine might possibly want a Christian to think that baptism is not necessary?


I don't know Parker. I think it's necessary. I don't know any church who thinks it's not necessary.
Are you speaking of the prince of the air, maybe??

Wondering

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Please click to expand. My reply is in blue.

 

[GodsGrace]

I John 4:2
Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

The natural birth of water is / was needed for Jesus.

We need entrance into physical life or the denial of our reality is at question.

Way heavy for a Mississippi redneck.

eddif

Good point!

 

[GodsGrace]

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Born of the water and born of the Spirit is born AGAIN. Otherwise why did He say Born AGAIN? Except a man be born of the water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Why be redundant with born of the water if we already have been from our mother's womb? Why repeat Himself? Why not just say, you must be born of the Spirit?

RL
The above is for Mutzrein but I just now caught what you mean about Jesus being redundant.

We can't be sure of this answer. Maybe Jesus wanted to make a point of the fact that it's not enough to just be born in the flesh - of water. He wanted to show that there are TWO births, so of course, He would mention BOTH.

First you're born, with the natural water or fluid, in the flesh. You become a human being, a creation of God.

But then you also have to be born again. You become a new being, a new creation, a son of God, a "divine" being the way we were meant to be in the Garden.

Perhaps Jesus was just making a strong point?

Wondering

 

[eddif]

RL
The above is for Mutzrein but I just now caught what you mean about Jesus being redundant.

We can't be sure of this answer. Maybe Jesus wanted to make a point of the fact that it's not enough to just be born in the flesh - of water. He wanted to show that there are TWO births, so of course, He would mention BOTH.

First you're born, with the natural water or fluid, in the flesh. You become a human being, a creation of God.

But then you also have to be born again. You become a new being, a new creation, a son of God, a "divine" being the way we were meant to be in the Garden.

Perhaps Jesus was just making a strong point?

Wondering

I think you are getting it.

Jesus was a special case of flesh. Our belief in his life (in the flesh) without sin; gives us the ability to believe in Him.

Without my trying to force you to be super accurate answer, how many aspects of baptisms do you see?

I will even put myself at risk first:
John's baptism - repentance
Jesus's baptism - salvation
Holy Spirit baptism - power to witness

Sub aspects:
Suffering
Fire
Others ?

I tend to not see a single ceremony as the answer, but the multiple, understandable, realities, happening. Spiritual realities often have physical indicators to show they are accomplished. Doing an indicator does not bring about the spiritual. Faith on a spiritual level is the reality that calls for a physical reality. Of course rednecks have problems with vision in the brightness of the presence of Christ Jesus.

eddif