What does it mean to be "In Christ?"

[Tenchi]

Tenchi has shown he thinks law keeping was done by Pharisees.

As I showed you, Jesus himself acknowledged the Pharisees had kept the less weighty matters of the law. (Matthew 23:23)

( just to state the obvious, as it seems necessary for Tenchi/to avoid room for debate, those who commit sin transgress also the law, for sin is the transgression/non keeping of the law.)

??? These snide, passive-aggressive digs just make you look bad, you know.

Anyway, as I've already explained, it does not follow that if a person transgresses the law in one point he has never, therefore, obeyed the law in any point. This isn't what James indicated when he wrote,

James 2:10 (NASB)
10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.

The "chain" of God's law is broken when one "stumbles in one point" of it, but James doesn't say that, as a result, one has never and will never obey God's law.

Christ's charge of "hypocrite" that he leveled repeatedly at the Pharisees only makes sense if they were acting in contradictory ways in their living, keeping the law in those respects observable by others, but disobeying it especially in areas touching the inner man, areas like being just, merciful, and faithful. If the Pharisees were uniformly wicked, disobedient in every, single area of God's law, they would not have warranted the description of "hypocrite." Only if the Pharisees were both obedient and disobedient, presenting a "face" of religious piety in one moment through fastidious, legalistic law-keeping, but acting like "sons of hell" in another would the label of "hypocrite" properly describe them.

Also all of the old testament declares how all of Israel had transgressed against God.

The Son of man full of power by the Spirit of the Lord,came ( in the flesh) to declare unto Jacob their transgression and to Israel their sin.

In that day ( when the Son of man was present in Israel) they are made ashamed of all their actions, that they have transgressed against God, and God takes out of the middle of Israel the prideful ones, to be no more haughty. (n because of Christ, His Holy Mountain.)

This is all just "noise": offering information that is actually largely off-point with the hope, I suppose, that it will seem to make you appear knowledgeable about Scripture. It doesn't. Instead, it looks like rather obvious obfuscation, appearing to address a point by an excess of verbiage that doesn't actually deal with what was said. I can see you're talking to matters that don't actually address what I've written and I'm sure, then, that others can, too.

Now this is the part where Tenchi somehow thinks he can support a position against all testimony of scripture, revealing the extent of law breaking of all in Israel, ( especially the hypocritical Pharisees Jesus constantly has to rebuke.)

Just more Strawman stuff, gordon777. You've erected a weak, cartoonish version of what I've put forward so that you might have some success in knocking it down. But what you're going after here is not anything like what I've argued for in this thread.

The Pharisees try to follow the law to stone the woman caught in adultery to death. Jesus ( who came to convince Israel of their transgression and sin) declares how they who are without sin to cast the first stone.

Then Jesus afterwards tells the Pharisees they shall die in their sins ( they are transgressors of the law/doubters of truth) for not believing that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.

What was true of the Pharisees was true of all Jews, faithful, law-keeping ones, or not. Under the New Covenant, forged through Christ's atoning sacrifice at Calvary, everybody, Jew or Gentile, law-keeper or law-breaker, pagan or priest of Israel, would have to come to God through Jesus, by trusting in him as Savior and Lord (Acts 4:12; 1 Timothy 2:5). This is what Jesus was saying in John 8:24, pointing to himself as the Way, the Truth and the Life (John 14:6). In this regard, the Pharisees were hardly unique; they would, after Christ's atoning work on the cross, have to approach God through the "new and living way" (Hebrews 10:20) that he was, just like everyone else.

Was Jesus indicating, then, that the Pharisees had never, nor could ever, keep the law of Moses? No. He was simply pointing out that a New Covenant was about to be established through himself and that even the Pharisees, law-keepers though they were, would have to enter the "Narrow Way" through trusting in him as their Savior and Lord.

 

[Tenchi]

John 15 shows the incredibly naive position of Tenchi doctrine. How on earth can the Pharisee keep the law, they are preached to by Christ ( who came to make the law honourable and magnified and fulfilled. Isaiah 42:21. Matthew 5:17.) they failed to believe the law even, as they had seen and hated both the Son and the Father. This came to pass what was written in the law the Pharisees had, they hated Jesus without any reason. ( is this Tenchis reason of the Pharisees keeping the law the Pharisees are fulfilling being murderers in ?)

What you've set up here is called a false dichotomy. You've offered two options as though they are the only two options that are possible. But, as I've explained, there is at least one other option: The Pharisees kept the law in some points but not in others. See above.

Then the Pharisees demand a sign from Christ. Christ answers them, they are an adulterous evil generation. ( Children in whom is no faith/not law keeping. Deuteronomy 32:20)

Deuteronomy 32:16-21 (NASB)
16 "They made Him jealous with strange gods; With abominations they provoked Him to anger.
17 "They sacrificed to demons who were not God, To gods whom they have not known, New gods who came lately, Whom your fathers did not dread.
18 "You neglected the Rock who begot you, And forgot the God who gave you birth.
19 "The LORD saw this, and spurned them Because of the provocation of His sons and daughters.
20 "Then He said, 'I will hide My face from them, I will see what their end shall be; For they are a perverse generation, Sons in whom is no faithfulness.
21 'They have made Me jealous with what is not God; They have provoked Me to anger with their idols. So I will make them jealous with those who are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation,

As you so often, do gordon777, you've plucked a verse out of its context and used it in support of something that it doesn't support at all. As you can see above, in context, Deuteronomy 32:20 is referring, not to Pharisees, but particularly to those who had taken up the worship of pagan "gods," in so doing being unfaithful toward God. The Pharisees had not taken up worship of "strange gods," "new gods who came lately"; they were not "sacrificing to demons," or bowing down before pagan idols. But if you had understood Deuteronomy 32:20 in its context, you would have known all this. Instead, mishandling God's word, you've offered this verse as a characterization of those about whom the verse is not speaking at all. Yikes.

Here again the Pharisees ( law keepers according to Tenchi)

Strawman. I've never indicated that the Pharisees were only, perfect keepers of the law. See above.

accuse Christ and His disciples of transgressing, but Christ told them, they are the ones who transgress the commandment of God. ( not keep the law and commandments of God) but in vain the Pharisees are told they worship, teaching for doctrine the commandments of men.

None of this proves the Pharisees never obeyed the Mosaic Law. It seems that you're trying to establish that the failure of the Pharisees to obey in some instances meant they never obeyed in any instance. But this is obviously and immediately a false notion. See above.

( somehow Tenchi's position, has the blind Pharisee keeping the law of the Lord, and also showing in blindness how others should be blind, to keep the same law. Psalm 82:5.)

This is just more of your fallacious false dichotomy. The nation of Israel often strayed from God. But they could not have strayed from God if they had not ever been with Him. And so, we can read in the OT of times when Israel kept the law of God, pleasing Jehovah, while at others disobeying Him grievously. The latter did not eradicate or negate the former. Likewise, the Pharisees kept the law in some instances and disobeyed it in others; their disobedience to God's law in one regard did not mean the Pharisees could not keep it another (which they did). This isn't that hard to understand, gordon777...

I did educate Tenchi of his scripture idea that the Pharisee paying tithes of anise and cummin was fulfilling the curse of Israel who robed Gd in tithes and offerings ( even the whole nation.0 I did try to show how when Christ says woe to the Pharisees ( it is because they have broken the law, not kept it.) they are in trouble.

??? This is such a tangle of words, I can hardly make sense of it.

Here again in Matthew, is the same woe for the Pharisees ( who Tenchi maintains are keepers of the law) but they shut up heaven against men, the Pharisees do not enter, the Pharisee devours widows houses and make pretense prayers, they search sea and land to make children of hell. ( these of course are Pharisee law keepers)

??? This is such odd thinking! Imagine: A murderer enters a Wal-Mart, picks out a new, big-screen t.v. to buy, takes it to the cashier, pays for the t.v., and leaves the store. Everything he did in the Wal-Mart was legal, following the law in every respect. Does the fact that he is a murderer negate the legal way in which he purchased the t.v.? Was his purchase of the t.v. actually totally illegal simply because he was a murderer? No. Obviously. But this is, essentially, what you're arguing for, gordon777, in your kooky idea about the Pharisees and their keeping of the law (or not keeping it, as the case may be).

Israel ( who received the messenger) are told they have gone away from the ordinances of God. ( NOT KEPT THEM.)

Which in no way means they never kept any of the laws of God, ever. See above.

Finally then, what does it mean to be in Christ ?


It 100 percent, is not talk on forums, that is established...

This is so...amusing, coming from someone who writes enormous reams of stuff on such forums.

 

[Robert Pate]

To be "In Christ" is to be free from laws, rules and religion.

 

[Tenchi]

To be "In Christ" is to be free from laws, rules and religion.

This sounds an awful lot like antinomianism, which I'm sure you don't support. But this is the problem with these doctrinally hyper-distilled statements: They end up causing confusion rather than answering confusion. Christianity is simple, but not simplistic, which memes and slogans typically are.

 

[Deidr]

Love me some Willard quotes

The familiar words of Jesus are “Without me you can do nothing” [John 15:5] But these must be balanced by the insight that, in general, if we do nothing it will certainly be without him.

Dallas

 

[Deidr]

I was brought up Baptist, and still go to a Baptist church. And my brother and Father went to Fuller Theological Siminary where they received their degrees. And I'd play with them seeing that after awhile there were things that sounded cultic. Cultic like they could not see outside of OSAS and legalism. And I really was not trying to be rude but at times I would label them as Baptist thoughts even they preached and taught under different church names besides Baptist, in my opinion their thinking was the same. I mention the law my dad would go to Galatians. I don't know for sure if He ever understood we uphold the law through the faith of Jesus.

Anyway it's very much like a web weaved in the mind and one has to be open to listening before they respond.

It's a difficult change but their is freedom in truth.

 

[gordon777]

Good to see that you are seeking the truth concerning Christ and his Gospel.

Many tend to make the mistake of believing that 2 Corinthians 5:17 is about the Christian life. It is far more than that. When Jesus walked out of Joseph's new tomb our new humanity walked out with him. We are new creations because Jesus is God's new creation. God sees ALL THINGS in Jesus Christ. All that have come to Christ to be saved by him are "In Christ" God sees them as perfect and complete "In Christ" Colossians 2:10. Many are offended by this because it is the end of their religion. We cannot make ourselves any better than what we already are in Jesus Christ.

Let me educate us further.



Behold who is called a JEW, who rests in the law, approving the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law.

He is NOT A JEW, which is one outwardly, neither is circumcision which is outward in thew flesh.

But he is a JEW, which is one inwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter. (Matthew 23:25. 1 Peter 3:4.)




Romans 2:17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;


Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.




The Apostles were troubled on every side, perplexed, persecuted, cast down, always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus/always delivered unto death for Jesus' sake. ( the life of Jesus is made manifest in the body of their mortal flesh/ which reveals who are not Apostles, and are liars. Revelation 2:2.)




2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
8 We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair;
9 Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed;
10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.
11 For we which live are always delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.




Titus who was with Apostle Paul, did not want to be circumcised. ( those who say they are Jews, wanted the Greeks to be circumcised in the flesh, as they were.)

Apostle Paul speaks to Peter, who being a Jew, was afraid of those of the circumcision, ( the Jews) and Paul shows how Peter cannot compel the Gentiles to live as the Jews that way. Jews by nature, not sinners of the Gentiles. ( who have no faith in Christ.)

A man is justified by the faith of Jesus Christ, ( believing in HIs faith) and not by the works of the law, ( the law is not of faith, Galatians 3:12/ it is not the fulfilment of the faith of Christ, for Christ is the end of the law, for righteousness, to every one that believes. Romans 10:4.)


We have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law, for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Through the law, we are dead to the law, so we might live unto God. ( For in that Christ died, He died unto sin once, but in that He lives, He lives unto God. We likewise die unto sin, but are alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:10-11. )

We are crucified with Christ: yet we live; yet not us, but Christ lives in us: and the life which we now live in the flesh we live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. (A man is justified by the faith of Jesus Christ, we believe in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ.)


We cannot frustrate the grace of God, righteousness comes not come by the law, Christ would be dead in vain. (Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes/ Christ died unto sin once, but in that He lives, He lives unto God.)




Romans 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Galatians 2:3 But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:

Galatians 2:12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.

Galatians 2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Galatians 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Galatians 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

 

[gordon777]

As I showed you, Jesus himself acknowledged the Pharisees had kept the less weighty matters of the law. (Matthew 23:23)

As I showed you next, they receive woe for keeping nothing/breaking it all.

Ezekiel and all scriptures about Israel, reveal how much they failed to execute the judgement of God, d3espising His statutes, their eyes after their idols.

Luke 11 repeats the same ( of course) how the Pharisees pass over the judgement of God. ( claiming that reveals Pharisees as also keeping the law, is futile.)




Ezekiel 20:24 Because they had not executed my judgments, but had despised my statutes, and had polluted my sabbaths, and their eyes were after their fathers' idols.

Luke 11:42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.




Again Malachi ( as all the scriptures) testifies about the complete failures of Israel, ( in the law) how they went away ( PASSED OVER) from the ordinances of God ( His judgements in the law) and have NOT KEPT THEM.

It is also testified they rob God in the pretence offerings they give in tithes.

Christ rebukes the non law keeping Pharisees, sitting as the refiner, that they may afterwards offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness. ( no longer in unrighteousness as the Pharisees offered.)

The Lord testified beforehand of these Pharisee blind leaders of the blind of Israel. The Lord has no pleasure in all those offerings of Israel, and will not accept an offering at their hand. ( they break all and keep nothing therefore.)

Also the Lord testifies against Israel, ( the Pharisee blind leaders of the blind to come in Israel.) how the Lords name will be great among the Gentiles, who offer pure offerings ( tithes) in His name ( the Lord Jesus Christ.) as HIs name is great among the heathen.



Malachi 1:10 Who is there even among you that would shut the doors for nought? neither do ye kindle fire on mine altar for nought. I have no pleasure in you, saith the Lord of hosts, neither will I accept an offering at your hand.
11 For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the Lord of hosts.

Malachi 3:3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness.

Malachi 3:7 Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the Lord of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return?
8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.

Matthew 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.




Then Jesus tells the likes of Tenchi, to sell all they have and give alms, to provide a treasure in the heavens that fails not, where no thief can approach nor steal.



Luke 12:33 Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth.

 

[gordon777]

Love me some Willard quotes

The familiar words of Jesus are “Without me you can do nothing” [John 15:5] But these must be balanced by the insight that, in general, if we do nothing it will certainly be without him.

Dallas

Yes you still want to give quotes which are not examples of Christ, nor of the Apostles who also left all to follow Christ, in persecutions, which gives us faith and belief to follow their example, as all other examples give no faith, the faith was already established in the present truth.


2 Peter 1:12 Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.

 

[gordon777]

If the chatters do not get it by now, their own idea of a thread has shown exactly what it means to not be in Christ.

To be in Christ is the opposite to the forums.

The only examples that give faith are the doing of the faith, ( Jesus Christ and the Apostles of the Lord are those doers.)

If we follow the Pharisee example, we would be talkers only on forums.

 

[gordon777]

Anyway, as I've already explained, it does not follow that if a person transgresses the law in one point he has never, therefore, obeyed the law in any point. This isn't what James indicated when he wrote,

James 2:10 (NASB)
10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.

The "chain" of God's law is broken when one "stumbles in one point" of it, but James doesn't say that, as a result, one has never and will never obey God's law.

Yes, as Tenchi explains, that the Pharisees who pass over the judgement of God, are law keepers. ( the law is the judgement of God.)

They are even testified to OMIT, those matters of the law.


One opinion ( Tenchi) is that this is the Pharisee keeping law.

Another opinion. ( me) is that this is keeping nothing at all.


Does James somehow mean that those who keep most of the law and fail on one point are guilty of all ?

Or that they never began to keep anything, because they do not keep with malice and wickedness ( those in the law) but we keep with sincerity and truth. ( In Christ Jesus. Ephesians 6:24. Titus 2:7.

Does Tenchi never know, that the little leaven ( of malice and wickedness those in the law constantly have) leavens their whole lump. They ( in the law) would need to be a new lump ( as neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is anything, but a new creature. Galatians 6:15.)




1 Corinthians 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.



Tenchi may think he can escape these scriptures, but he cant.

They in the law are breakers of the law, their circumcision is made uncircumcision.

They in Christ keep the righteousness of the law, so that their uncircumcision is counted for circumcision.

They by the letter ( of the law) transgress the law ( as the Pharisees transgressed, not kept) as they are not even a Jew, by circumcision in the flesh, but he is a Jew inwardly, circumcision in the heart, not in the letter ( as the Pharisee in the letter of the law) and neither the opinions of in circumcision or out of circumcision mean anything, the only thing that is, is to be a new creature in Jesus Christ. ( the talkers can never know right from wrong, it is believed in and done, or can is never done.)



Romans 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Galatians 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

 

[gordon777]

Tenchi prefers to talk from a distance from these verses, lets look at them instead.


We are to love our neighbour as ourselves.

Those who instead ( never loving their neighbour ads themselves) respect the person of the rich, are sinners, transgressors.

They ( as the Pharisee who prayed to HIMSELF) according to themselves, keep such and such. ( they are transgressors of the law)

God answers through James they have not showed mercy, they will receive no mercy from Gods judgement seat.

The Pharisee has no justification, because of exaltation. ( to also have no mercy, as the Pharisee in the parable despises others.)

To show that Tenchi is not acknowledging these testimonies of the Lord, SEE BELOW with me, in James 2:6, it is the same matter, they DESPISED THE POOR, and in the parable Christ gave us of the Pharisee, the humble man has to ask the Lord to have mercy on him. ( as the example in James 2, reveals they are people who showed NO MERCY, to their neighbour, who they should have loved as themselves.)



Luke 18:9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:

Luke 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

James 2:6 But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?

James 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

 

[gordon777]

I know there is no correction ( implacable) to be done on this or any forum in the world, or even anywhere in the world, there is no faith on earth right now. ( God given them over to a reprobate mind, to do what is not convenient as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge.)

But this is one thing I would like to be wrong on, as I tried that much, to hope and try and try anyway.



Romans 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

 

[gordon777]

Even if people think they are tricky, they are not.


It is a simple new covenant, of a stony heart taken out and a new heart of flesh replacing it, of God placing His Spirit in us.


Before that, how would the way to keep the whole law ( love your neighbour as yourself) not be completely broken, until love for your neighbour is also shed into our heart. ( this is the Spirit, this is the love, this is the law, all of Christ given into the heart.)

If a disputer denies that the covenant for the world is told about in the old testament. ( how empty is that vanity)

God has given to us the earnest of the Spirit into our hearts. Because we are sons, He has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts. ( this is fulfilled in the Gentiles, but not in Israel, who can therefore keep all they keep, in hardened hearts of stone, and not as the Gentiles, in fleshy tables of the heart, the Epistles of Christ written in the new heart of flesh.) All the law is fulfilled in loving our neighbour as ourselves, as the law is broken by not keeping. ( loving our neighbour as ourselves/ with no love of God shed into the heart, no Spirit of the Holy Ghost given.)



Ezekiel 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

Romans 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

Romans 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

2 Corinthians 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.


2 Corinthians 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

Galatians 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

Galatians 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.

 

[Deidr]

Yes you still want to give quotes which are not examples of Christ, nor of the Apostles who also left all to follow Christ, in persecutions, which gives us faith and belief to follow their example, as all other examples give no faith, the faith was already established in the present truth.


2 Peter 1:12 Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.

Okayee..You right But that was not for you, it was for those following the conversation. If you surrender and never needed or need to grow in grace everyday, And if you no longer need to "beat" your body, or discipline it daily then more power to you, keep on keeping on..That may mean for you, [the way you make it sound]you got everything right and I don't. Honestly though when I write I sometimes generalize. I welcome your judgemental attitude. Maybe it will just show you, that maybe that's what you need to surrender, because you come across that way judgemental. Especially when all I was trying to do was have a conversation.
But I'm not going to spend no more energy on people who run with everything said without even considering what they wrote. So peace and blessings I think God is my Judge and I need no other to judge me for generalizing. Seems best to just put you on ignore.

Make a great Day

 

[Deidr]

Love me some Willard quotes

The familiar words of Jesus are “Without me you can do nothing” [John 15:5] But these must be balanced by the insight that, in general, if we do nothing it will certainly be without him.

Dallas

 

[Robert Pate]

Okayee..You right But that was not for you, it was for those following the conversation. If you surrender and never needed or need to grow in grace everyday, And if you no longer need to "beat" your body, or discipline it daily then more power to you, keep on keeping on..That may mean for you, [the way you make it sound]you got everything right and I don't. Honestly though when I write I sometimes generalize. I welcome your judgemental attitude. Maybe it will just show you, that maybe that's what you need to surrender, because you come across that way judgemental. Especially when all I was trying to do was have a conversation.
But I'm not going to spend no more energy on people who run with everything said without even considering what they wrote. So peace and blessings I think God is my Judge and I need no other to judge me for generalizing. Seems best to just put you on ignore.

Make a great Day

When I was into Pentecostalism, I heard the word "surrender" frequently. I told my Pentecostal guru that I was not able to surrender and that I frequently had lustful thoughts. He informed me that I had a lust demon that needed to be cast out. I went to another church where they shook me and damned the devil. It didn't work.

It is very apparent that you are practicing a holiness religion. I was delivered from Pentecostalism by the Gospel of Jesus Christ. In the Gospel Jesus was the surrendered one. "He who knew no sin became sin for us" 2 Corinthians 5:21. Pentecostals try to do in their flesh what God has ALREADY done in Jesus Christ. We have ALREADY been reconciled unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18-19. We are ALREADY complete "In Christ" Colossians 2:10.

Instead of surrendering (whatever that means) and beating your body into submission, you need to enter into HIS rest, Hebrews 4:10. Its over, its finished and Jesus is Lord.

 

[Tenchi]

The familiar words of Jesus are “Without me you can do nothing” [John 15:5] But these must be balanced by the insight that, in general, if we do nothing it will certainly be without him.

No one, of course, ever does absolutely nothing. Even comatose and totally unconscious, our hearts still beat, our lungs inhale and exhale, our blood travels through our vascular systems, and so on. In fact, even at the death of our bodies we don't cease to be and do, but move to a new plane of existence, freed of our frail, physical "tent" and present with the Lord, our Creator. And whatever we might do, it is always fundamentally enabled by God. He is our Source and Sustainer, the Ground of All Reality, and should He cease to exist, so would we all. There is, then, I think, no such thing, really, as doing nothing, nor is there anything we do that does not rest, on a profoundly fundamental level, upon God.

And I'd play with them seeing that after awhile there were things that sounded cultic. Cultic like they could not see outside of OSAS and legalism. And I really was not trying to be rude but at times I would label them as Baptist thoughts even they preached and taught under different church names besides Baptist, in my opinion their thinking was the same. I mention the law my dad would go to Galatians. I don't know for sure if He ever understood we uphold the law through the faith of Jesus.

Anyway it's very much like a web weaved in the mind and one has to be open to listening before they respond.

It's a difficult change but their is freedom in truth.

Are you not susceptible to what you describe here? Might you also have a "web weaved in your mind" that blinds you to the truth? Maybe your brothers and father look at you and think essentially the same thing about you and your beliefs that you do about them and theirs. And maybe they're right. Does merely holding another's view in disdain certify that your own are correct? I'm sure you'd say not. But you "play" with your father and brothers, disrespecting them in so doing, I think, and seem to assume you've got a better, higher view of things spiritually. On what grounds do you believe you have the right of things? If your father and brothers can be deceived, what makes you immune from the same "cultic" indoctrination?

 

[Deidr]

When I was into Pentecostalism, I heard the word "surrender" frequently. I told my Pentecostal guru that I was not able to surrender and that I frequently had lustful thoughts. He informed me that I had a lust demon that needed to be cast out. I went to another church where they shook me and damned the devil. It didn't work.

It is very apparent that you are practicing a holiness religion.

If you say so, at this point I can't see myself trying to reason with you when you ignore scriptures that are presented to you.

I was delivered from Pentecostalism by the Gospel of Jesus Christ. In the Gospel Jesus was the surrendered one. "He who knew no sin became sin for us" 2 Corinthians 5:21.

I'm not any name brand...lol
My goal is to trust Jesus and be tranfomed by the word unto His likeness.

Pentecostals try to do in their flesh what God has ALREADY done in Jesus Christ.

What is it they do exactly Robert Pate?

We have ALREADY been reconciled unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18-19. We are ALREADY complete "In Christ" Colossians 2:10.

Why do you say we? Why do you think you are part of that group?

Instead of surrendering (whatever that means) and beating your body into submission, you need to enter into HIS rest, Hebrews 4:10. Its over, its finished and Jesus is

Why don't ya ask what I mean instead of commenting

No one, of course, ever does absolutely nothing. Even comatose and totally unconscious, our hearts still beat, our lungs inhale and exhale, our blood travels through our vascular systems, and so on. In fact, even at the death of our bodies we don't cease to be and do, but move to a new plane of existence, freed of our frail, physical "tent" and present with the Lord, our Creator. And whatever we might do, it is always fundamentally enabled by God. He is our Source and Sustainer, the Ground of All Reality, and should He cease to exist, so would we all. There is, then, I think, no such thing, really, as doing nothing, nor is there anything we do that does not rest, on a profoundly fundamental level, upon God.



Are you not susceptible to what you describe here? Might you also have a "web weaved in your mind" that blinds you to the truth? Maybe your brothers and father look at you and think essentially the same thing about you and your beliefs that you do about them and theirs. And maybe they're right. Does merely holding another's view in disdain certify that your own are correct? I'm sure you'd say not. But you "play" with your father and brothers, disrespecting them in so doing, I think, and seem to assume you've got a better, higher view of things spiritually. On what grounds do you believe you have the right of things? If your father and brothers can be deceived, what makes you immune from the same "cultic" indoctrination?

I included myself under cultic ways...
But this was not for you. It's for those who are where I'm at in my own thinking. Places we been and places we are still need to untangle.
So go on to someone else and critique what they say out of not knowing them or knowing where they are even coming from.
I'm not here to argue with you.. Therefore I like to maintain my peace and correct you quickly by putting you on ignore. Make a great Day!

 

[Deidr]

My sister's quote

Anything that effects my peace is too expensive.

People can't say everything they don't mean or do mean in what they write.