What does it mean to be "In Christ?"

[Tenchi]

1 John 5:2-3 (NASB)
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.

In verse 2, the apostle John distinguished loving God from observing His commandments, the former naturally preceding the latter. He goes on to explain that this love that pre-exists obedience is expressed in keeping God's commandments. And because God's commandments express His love to us and our love for Him prompts us to obey them, we don't find His commandments burdensome. In none of what John wrote here, though, does he indicate that love of God and obedience to Him are one-and-the-same thing.

John 14:15 (NASB)
15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

Here, also, John stipulated that love for God precedes commandment-keeping and gives rise to doing so. As John phrased things in this verse, "a disciple of Christ will keep his commandments" if, within that disciple, love for Christ exists. John did not indicate here that love of Christ and commandment-keeping were identical or synonymous. The contingent term "if" flatly denies such a construction of meaning.

John 14:21 (NASB)
21 "He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him."

Jesus indicated in this verse that the one who loved him made this evident in their keeping his commandments. We can be sure this was his meaning when we understand his words in the light of the other verses above. Obedience is the fruit of love, the by-product of it; obedience is not love itself, as the Pharisees demonstrated. Although they were professionally-obedient to God's law, well-known for their careful law-keeping, inwardly their hearts were far from God, void of love for Him. Obedience, then, is not necessarily a sure proof of love for God, though it will always be a natural by-product of genuine love for Him.

 

[gordon777]

Of Course there are rules and laws
Love God and Love your neighbor...etc

I see you guys are having your same old conversations. (talking about words, and verses, and not discussing the deeds Jesus Christ our Lord actually did ?)

If there are rules and laws, to love God and love your neighbour etc, why don't we talk about that. ( see where it leads everybody's opinions to.)


Lets begin in Matthew 19, if we will enter into life ?

The commandments are straight forward, they are told to be love in the Epistles. ( Romans 13:8-10.)

First we understand there is none good but God, and after this, we know the good Lord God has always willed for man to love their neighbour as themselves.

The man in the law said he had kept the law, including keeping loving his neighbour as himself.

Jesus revealed however, that he could not have kept loving his neighbour as himself, because he had great possessions, and to be perfect, ( in perfect love. 1 John 2:5 4:12. 4:15-17.) of course the man in the law had to go and sell what he had, and to distribute all to the poor, then come and follow Jesus to have treasure in heaven. ( the poor are our neighbour.)



Matthew 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Matthew 19:20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.



To go straight into the Romans 13 summary, ( if there is any other commandment) we understand it, ( understanding is the key. Colossians 1:9.) we shall love our neighbour as ourselves. Love works no ill. ( the love of God requires shedding into our heart,( Romans 5:5.) which gives us understanding in what the love of God is ( who died for us. 1 John 3:16.) and we also understand that until Christ gave His life and love for us, there was no possible way for man in the law, to have ever known that only God is good, ( the good Shepherd who gave HIs life for the sheep. John 10:11.) and how He showed us the way to love, as He has loved us. ( the good Shepherd knows His sheep and is known of them/Spiritually, they know HIs love is through laying HIs life down for the sheep.)



"And if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."

John 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

John 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.




Of course the greatest commandment in the law is to love the Lord our God will all of our heart, all of our soul, and with all of our mind. The second being like unto it, to love our neighbour as ourselves. ( all the law and all of the prophets hang on those two commandments/ the greatest commandment in the law. Matthew 22:35-40.)

Reading just above in John 15:12, reveals the greater love ( the greatest commandment in the law) for Christ to lay His life down for His friends/HIs sheep. ( Christ came to fulfil the law, to give the Spirit to understand it with, which is, to do unto others, even as we would have them, do unto us. Matthew 7:12. Luke 6:31. Man/the sheep were carnal, but the law is spiritual, and man needed to become Spiritual also, no longer carnal. Romans 7:14. 8:6.)



Matthew 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

Matthew 22:35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.




In the law we can see easily, man kept all, in mans way, ( carnal, non Spiritual way/understanding.)

Jesus loves, and answers the way to understand, ( believing in the Gospel) to go and sell what they have and to give it to the poor, ( to truly believe in loving your neighbour as yourself) and that is then having treasure in heaven, and it leads to taking up our cross and following Christ. ( who did have nowhere to lay His head and who did love by giving all away, until His life for us.)

The scribe in the law, asked what the first commandment o all, in the law ?

It is for Israel to hear ( faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God/the Gospel. Romans 10:17. Galatians 3:2. 3:5.) the Lord is one Lord, ( the Lord Jesus Christ/ He is Lord of all. Acts 10:36.) and we shall love the Lord our God will all of our heart, with all of our soul, with all of our mind and with all of our strength. The second is like unto the first, to love our neighbour as ourselves. ( none other commandment is greater than those/ the greater love of Christ laying HIs life down for HIs friends, who He made known all things of the Father to us/of HIs love to lay His life down for His lost, going astray sheep John 15:15. 1 Peter 2:25.)

The scribe in the law acknowledged that Christ had told him the truth, calling Him Master,( of the one God and none other but He/Jesus Christ.) and to love Him with all of the heart and all of the understanding, with all your soul and strength, and to love your neighbour as yourself, is more than the law of burnt offerings and sacrifice. ( the law had given no understanding/belief, if what the love of o now was in the world.)


Mark 10:19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.
20 And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.
21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

Mark 12:28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

Mark 12:32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.

John 15:15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.

 

[gordon777]

A certain lawyer ( man in the law) asked Christ, Master, what should he do to inherit eternal life ?

Jesus answers straightforward back, what is in his law, how does he read it ?

The man answers, to love the Lord your God with all of your heart, soul, strength and mind, and your neighbour as yourself.

Jesus says, he had answered right, do it and live.

But the man could not do that, without instruction, ( from Christ, how to do it and live.) and willing to justify himself, asked Jesus, WHO IS HIS NEIGHBOUR ?

Jesus answers by parable, of a man who fell among thieves, stripped him and left him half dead. ( the poor in this world, our neighbour/chosen of God/rich in faith. James 2:5.)

The priest ( the teacher of the law, to man in the law) passed by on the other side, and likewise a Levite ( mans understanding of loving your neighbour in the law) passed by on the other side.

But a certain Samaritan, saw and had compassion. ( the Gentiles which are called now by HIs name. Acts 15:17.)

The one who had compassion, was neighbour to him who fell among the thieves. Those in the law were instructed to go and do likewise. ( not likewise to the priest and Levite, who of the law, pass by on the other side of mercy.)

Again Luke 18 goes on to show how those in the law keep the commandments of God in their own way from their youth up, but that they LACK one thing, to go and sell what they have and to distribute it to the poor, ( to love your neighbour as yourself, and our neighbour is the poor who requires compassion and mercy, then there is treasure in heaven, then we can follow Christ, which is understood to be the kindness of our Saviour appearing for us. Before this we are foolish disobedient and deceived, serving lusts and not giving away all as Christ our Lord did for the world.)


Luke 10:25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

Luke 10:29 But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?
30 And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.
31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.
32 And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.
33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,

Luke 10:36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?
37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

Luke 18:20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.
21 And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.
22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

Titus 3:3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

 

[gordon777]

I thought I posted my study on this topic previously, but I double checked and couldn't find it, so I'll do so here as a response to the OP

"In Christ": What does it really mean?

The words “in Christ” and similar, i.e.; “in Jesus Christ”, “in Christ Jesus”, “in him’, are used ad nauseam within the Christian world with hardly anyone ever giving any thought whatsoever as to what the words really mean or entail, thus relegating them to nothing more than Christian “buzz words” that sound good and Christian-like.

So what do these words really mean? What does it mean to be “in Christ” and how does one get “in Christ” or into Christ? Is there a specific way stated in the bible? Are there unique benefits for being “in Christ” once one has achieved that state of being “in him”? Are there benefits available to those not being “in Christ”? Can you receive spiritual blessings without being “in Christ”?

Questions of words ( the meanings of words) is not consenting to the wholesome words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the doctrine which is according to godliness.

Gain is not godliness, ,loss is, that is what everybody on the thread is skipping around. ( but now nobody can.)



1 Timothy 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

 

[gordon777]

John 14:21 (NASB)
21 "He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him."

Obedience is the fruit of love, the by-product of it; obedience is not love itself, as the Pharisees demonstrated. Although they were professionally-obedient to God's law, well-known for their careful law-keeping, inwardly their hearts were far from God, void of love for Him.

Obedience, then, is not necessarily a sure proof of love for God, though it will always be a natural by-product of genuine love for Him.

The Pharisees were testified by Christ to not keep the law at all:


John 7:19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?

Luke 11:46 And he said, Woe unto you also, ye lawyers! for ye lade men with burdens grievous to be borne, and ye yourselves touch not the burdens with one of your fingers.
Galatians 6:13 For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.


The Pharisees had no obedience, because obedience is faith. ( Revealed now by our Saviour. Romans 16:26.)


Faith works by love. ( the Pharisees had no obedience as testified, no obedience of faith/no belief for those in the law, the law is not of faith, Galatians 3:12, and no love, as this is shed into our hearts by the faith of our Saviour Jesus Christ. Romans 5:5.)

The fruit of the Spirit is love and faith. ( obedience is not a by product of love, obedience of faith is the same as love, all are fruits of the Spirit, as the love of God is shed into our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given to us, and that is making known to us the obedience of faith, through the faith of Christ, through the love of God laying His life down for us, and before that, the Pharisees and the world knew nothing about love, or obedience or faith, because this is all in Jesus Christ, which answers the thread question.)



Galatians 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,



Obedience is exactly a sure proof of love for God, as testified clearly, because we love the brothers, we pass from death unto life. ( because no murderer has eternal life/Christ abiding in them.)

Perceiving ( believing) in the love of God laying His life down for us, we believe to do the same for the brothers ( loving others in the same obedience of Christ is sure proof of belief in God. Philippians 2:8-9.)

Little children do not love in word and tongue ( as all peeps on the forums love) they love ( believe) in the deed and truth that Christ our Saviour did. That is how anyone knows they are of the truth, and can assure their hearts before God. ( the obedience of Christ to the death of the cross, is absolute proof of love for God.)



John 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

1 John 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.

 

[gordon777]

Will those in discussion speak of the deed and truth of Christ, or ignore it completely, will they agree that to be in Christ is to do as He did, as the Apostles are examples of those deeds and truth ?

Or, will the discussion continue on words, as their confessed understanding of what it means for them to be in Christ. ( even, including, disputing the verses of the obedience of the Messiah to the death of the cross, the perceived manifested love of the Saviour for the world.)

 

[JLB]

In none of what John wrote here, though, does he indicate that love of God and obedience to Him are one-and-the-same thing.

Obedience to God is how we express our love for Him and His children.

The way we love God, is to obey His command to love our neighbor.

If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen? 1 John 4:20




JLB

 

[Robert Pate]

Obedience to God is how we express our love for Him and His children.

The way we love God, is to obey His command to love our neighbor.

If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen? 1 John 4:20




JLB

Obedience is always motivated by love, not law. If obedience is motivated by law, it is no longer by love. If you love someone because you are told or commanded to, it is law and not love. The Pharisees were motivated by law and not love and is why Jesus was at odds with them.

A good son does not need to be told what to do. He loves his father and would never do anything to disappoint him or disgrace him. He knows what is required of him and lives accordingly.

 

[Highway54]

All that come to Christ as repentant sinners to be saved by Jesus are spiritually placed "In Christ". They are accepted only "In Christ" Ephesians 6:6. Christians will never be judged for sins, because God sees them as perfect and complete "In Christ" Colossians 2:10. There is no condemnation for those that are "In Christ", Romans 8:1. There is no condemnation because there is no law. Romans 4:15. It has been abolished, Ephesians 2:15.

Hope you are correct sir, we are definitely getting to the time that Mat 7:13 will be proved true, or false. Again I hope you are correct, just cannot see it myself.

 

[Robert Pate]

Hope you are correct sir, we are definitely getting to the time that Mat 7:13 will be proved true, or false. Again I hope you are correct, just cannot see it myself.

It is not about me being correct. It is about what the Bible says.

 

[Deidr]

It's funny because I was saying to my group..my sister,mom and friend if we just count ourselves dead everyday there would be no need of worrying about death. Where is fear? Gone.
Actually for my own encouragement In being purposeful in this life these scriptures were encouraging. Tks for the time you put in.
gordon777

 

[Deidr]

It is not about me being correct. It is about what the Bible says.

It's about what the Bible says as we understand it through Trusting Jesus.
We have seen where politicians and many others in life who want to gain a goal put pieces of information together to prove a point. But they leave out the details, or ignore other passages that go against what they want to prove.

So on the outside it looks good and strong but surely missing the details will make believers of that information empty of life.

Truly that is why our foundation should be Jesus Christ.

 

[Free]

It is not about me being correct. It is about what the Bible says.

But the Bible states, unequivocally, that your position is not correct. There are numerous rules and commands for believers to follow, from the commands of Jesus right through to the end.

We cannot be in Christ and ignore his commands, as Jesus makes clear in John and John repeats in 1 John.

 

[Tenchi]

The Pharisees were testified by Christ to not keep the law at all:


John 7:19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?

Luke 11:46 And he said, Woe unto you also, ye lawyers! for ye lade men with burdens grievous to be borne, and ye yourselves touch not the burdens with one of your fingers.
Galatians 6:13 For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.

*Sigh* John 7:19 in context describes what Jesus said to "the Jews" who were looking for him. In verses 11, 13 and 15 there is reference to "the Jews," not to the Pharisees, or scribes, or Sadducees. This group of "the Jews" looking for Jesus may have included some from these religious orders but John doesn't actually say so in John 7, nor does Jesus. In the very same chapter, though, John recounts the activities of the Pharisees (vs. 32), clearly identifying them as such. So, it seems very unlikely that "the Jews" about whom Jesus spoke in verse 19 were specifically Pharisees, since John would have identified them as such, as he did only a few verses later in the chapter. I don't think, then, that you've selected a good verse from which to make your point about the Pharisees, gordon777.

It is obvious, it seems to me, that if the Pharisees were actually in constant, flagrant contravention of the various laws of Moses (moral, ceremonial, separative/civic) they would have been rejected by their fellow Jews as religious leaders. And so, when Jesus condemned the Pharisees in Matthew 15:8, it was the state of their heart, not their neglect of law-keeping, that he pointed at.

Don't get me wrong: The Pharisees were notoriously hypocritical. They were all of the things Jesus accused them of being in Matthew 23. But they were so in a way that was not immediately obvious to the general public. The Pharisees, scribes and Sadducees had a veneer of religiosity, on the surface they appeared to be obedient to the Law of God given to the Jews by Moses, observing very carefully the ceremonies, and laws of separation, and moral commandments that would be seen by those around them. Inwardly, however, in their hearts, the Pharisees were "sons of the devil," white-washed tombs full of the bones of corpses, and so on.

So, too, many believers today who are prodding and threatening fellow believers into outward obedience to God's commands, urging other children of God to think that mere obedience to God's commands is the same as having a heart of love for Him.

The Pharisees had no obedience, because obedience is faith.

Nonsense. Like so many believers today, the Pharisees were outwardly obedient or they would not have been Pharisees; their hearts, however, were far from God. Jesus even acknowledges this in his tirade against the Pharisees in Matthew 23:

Matthew 23:23 (NASB)
23 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others.

There was a veneer of obedience the Pharisees maintained, but the "weightier matters of the law," laws concerned with the inner person (being just, merciful and faithful), the Pharisees neglected entirely. This is the case, too, with modern legalist believers, with Christians who try to drive their fellow brothers and sisters in the Lord into fearful law-keeping, teaching them that obedience and love are identical things.

The Pharisees had no obedience, because obedience is faith. ( Revealed now by our Saviour. Romans 16:26.)

Romans 16:25-26 (NASB)
25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past,
26 but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith;

As Paul wrote here, in the Person of Jesus Christ, the "revelation of the mystery kept for long ages past" has been manifested to "all nations." Those who receive Christ as their Savior and Lord, the "mystery" spoken of by the OT Scriptures and prophets, do so by faith, obeying the "commandment of the eternal God" to trust in, and submit to, him.

Paul doesn't say in this passage that "obedience is faith," however. They are obedient to the commandment of God who by faith receive the "mystery kept for long ages past" who is the Savior, Jesus Christ. That's all Paul indicates in the verses above. To use verse 26 as ground for saying, "the Pharisees had no obedience, because obedience is faith" seems to me rather...confused.

Faith works by love. ( the Pharisees had no obedience as testified, no obedience of faith/no belief for those in the law, the law is not of faith, Galatians 3:12, and no love, as this is shed into our hearts by the faith of our Saviour Jesus Christ. Romans 5:5.)

Sorry, but this is, as far as I'm concerned, just religious gobbledy-gook. This quotation from your post is a tangle of phrases and statements from which I can make no sense.

Galatians 5:6 (NASB)
6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.

What does Paul mean by "faith working through love"? Paul explained:

Galatians 5:13-14 (NASB)
13 For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.
14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."

Faith in Christ is expressed through loving service of the brethren and love of one's neighbor. This is what Paul meant by "faith working through love." Did the Pharisees express such love to others? No. Does this mean they lived in open, constant contradiction of the Mosaic Law, refusing to observe the laws of ceremony, separation and so on the Mosaic Law proscribed? No, of course not. They obeyed these things very carefully - but not because they loved God and loved others. And so, their "obedience" amounted to hypocrisy - just like it does for Christians today who make obedience and love synonymous, thinking that so long as they obey God's commands, the coldness of their heart toward Him, the absence of any deep heart's desire for Him, is okay.

The fruit of the Spirit is love and faith. ( obedience is not a by product of love, obedience of faith is the same as love,

??? Obedience is the by-product of love, as God says very clearly in His word:

John 14:15 (NASB)
15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

1 John 5:2-3 (NASB)
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.

When the love of God is shed abroad in a person's heart in the Person of the Holy Spirit (Romans 5:5), this fact is reflected in both a love for God and a desire to serve those whom He loves. In this its evident that love is the precursor to obedience, the Spirit shedding abroad the love he is in the believer who then manifests this fact in their living. Obedience, then, is NOT the same as love.

 

[Tenchi]

the love of God is shed into our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given to us,

Right. But is he synonymous with obedience? Is the love that the Holy Spirit is defined in Scripture as obedience? Do you read anywhere in God's word that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Obedience? No.

the Holy Ghost which is given to us, and that is making known to us the obedience of faith, through the faith of Christ, through the love of God laying His life down for us, and before that, the Pharisees and the world knew nothing about love, or obedience or faith, because this is all in Jesus Christ, which answers the thread question.)

??? Where does Scripture ever say that the Holy Spirit is "making known to us the obedience of faith"? It doesn't. I can't make sense of what you mean by "making known to us the obedience of faith, through the faith of Christ." This is quite a tangle of words! And you compound the confusion of your remarks by saying that "before that...the world knew nothing about love, or obedience, or faith, because this is all in Jesus Christ..." Did God not call King David a "man after mine own heart"? (Acts 13:22) Yes, He did. How so, if David knew nothing of love, obedience, or faith? What of Elijah, taken up to heaven in a flaming chariot? Why would God do this for Elijah when, as you say, the prophet knew nothing of love, obedience, or faith? And what do you say of Abraham about whom Paul wrote:

Romans 4:3
3 For what says the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Have you not read Hebrews 11? It's just a long list of "heroes of faith" from the OT! How is such a list possible if, as you say, before the sacrifice of Christ at Calvary "the world knew nothing of love, obedience or faith"? Can you see why I find your ideas so hard to make sense of? Yikes.

Obedience is exactly a sure proof of love for God, as testified clearly, because we love the brothers, we pass from death unto life. ( because no murderer has eternal life/Christ abiding in them.)

Nope. And I already explained why. Nothing you offered in reply has challenged what I wrote. Instead, you seem to have descended into a morass of confused thinking that I can't follow or reconcile even with the Bible verses you cite.

they love ( believe) in the deed and truth that Christ our Saviour did.

This isn't love for God. Consider the Psalmist's words:

Psalm 42:1-2 (NASB)
1 As the deer pants for the water brooks, So my soul pants for You, O God.
2 My soul thirsts for God, for the living God...

Psalm 63:1 (NASB)
1 O God, You are my God; I shall seek You earnestly; My soul thirsts for You, my flesh yearns for You...

Psalm 143:6 (NASB)
6 I stretch out my hands to You; My soul longs for You, as a parched land. Selah.

Here, a love for God is properly described. It is echoed in Paul's words in his letter to the Philippians:

Philippians 3:7-10 (NASB)
7 But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ.
8 More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ,
9 and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,
10 that I may know Him...

A love for God is a deep, life-shaping desire for Him, a desire that drives the believer to forsake sin and Self, to reject the things of the World, and to resist the devil. It's a desire that moves the believer, in joy, to keep God's commands whatever the cost and to eliminate from their life anything that would at all hinder fellowship with Him. This is love for God, as the Psalmist and Paul explained. How far from the obligatory, lifeless, law-focused "obedience" of modern legalists, who want to bind their brethren under fear and rules, that a true love for God is! It will be for this desire that God will search the hearts of those who stand before Him on Judgment Day, not a list of rules kept.

 

[Tenchi]

Obedience to God is how we express our love for Him and His children.

Amen. But that obedience is not love for God itself, as many want to assert. When believers get this mixed-up and think that love and obedience are the same thing, they can get to thinking that, though their hearts are cold toward God, crowded with desires for other things that are much stronger than their desire for God, so long as they continue to obey God, it doesn't matter. The heart isn't the important thing, they believe, only one's actions are. But God looks on the heart, as Scripture says, and deals us according to what He finds there (1 Samuel 16:7).

This is, I believe, the lesson of Jesus' parable in Matthew 7:21-23 that ends with those listing their deeds done in Christ's name being cast out from him into hell. They tried to make their case before Christ on the basis of their good works but never once say that they had obeyed the First and Great Commandment (Matthew 22:36-38) which is where the will of the Father begins. And so, Christ cast them out as those who had not actually done the will of the Father.

There are so many believers I've met who think because they've never cursed, or committed adultery, or gotten drunk, because they went to church every Sunday, and prayed, and memorized Scripture, even, that they'll be received by Christ as one of his own. In the lives of these same believers fear, and obligation, and religious pride are motivating their "obedience" to God. Truth be told, though, their hearts possess only a shriveled, weak interest in God that's been stifled and cramped by fear of Him and a host of other greater desires for sinful, carnal things that they're often yielding to in secret. Nonetheless, they imagine that they'll be accepted by God, thinking that so long as their conduct is (mostly) "Christian," so long as they follow God's rules (mostly), they've shown that they "love" God. What an awful shock awaits them when they stand before Christ one day and he sees in their hearts no real love for him!

The way we love God, is to obey His command to love our neighbor.

The way we manifest, or express, our heart's desire for God is in obedience to His commands, yes. But obedience must arise from love which is to say that the two things are not the same thing. Love must precede obedience, producing it. See above.

 

[Deidr]

How far from the obligatory, lifeless, law-focused "obedience" of modern legalists, who want to bind their brethren under fear and rules, that a true love for God is! It will be for this desire that God will search the hearts of those who stand before Him on Judgment Day, not a list of rules kept.

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Thes
23And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

 

[Tenchi]

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Thes
23And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

Uh huh. Not sure what point you're making...

 

[Robert Pate]

But the Bible states, unequivocally, that your position is not correct. There are numerous rules and commands for believers to follow, from the commands of Jesus right through to the end.

We cannot be in Christ and ignore his commands, as Jesus makes clear in John and John repeats in 1 John.

Those that are led by the Holy Spirit don't needs laws, rules or commandments.

The ones that need laws, rules and commandments are the lawless and disobedient, 1 Timothy 1:9.

 

[JLB]

Those that are led by the Holy Spirit don't needs laws, rules or commandments.

Can you define what it means to be under the law?



JLB