What does it mean to be "In Christ?"

[gordon777]

I think as people we have pride. IF WE'VE BEEN TEACHING THE SAME THING TO PEOPLE ALL OUR LIVES YOU THINK IT WOULD BE EASY TO BREAK DOWN AND HUMBLE OURSELVES?

IT TAKES TIME...it's like Ross's stages of dying
denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance

It is what it is...

Pride is sin, sin is unbelief. Hardening of the heart ( pride) is blinded eyes, non understanding, non conversion, and not that new covenant belief of the heart of flesh and the stony heart taken out by God.


Daniel 5:20 But when his heart was lifted up, and his mind hardened in pride, he was deposed from his kingly throne, and they took his glory from him:

John 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Hebrews 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.



Denial as a defence mechanism, to be told you are terminally ill.

The proof that this is false in scripture, is because we are not told we are terminally ill by Christ to die, ( He is our healer) but that we convert and be healed of death.


Matthew 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

James 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.



Anger in response to being declared dying ?


No, it is joy in response to being saved from death.




John 16:22 And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you.

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.




Bargaining over control of illness ?


How is the message of being set free got to do with having an illness yet...




Jeremiah 33:6 Behold, I will bring it health and cure, and I will cure them, and will reveal unto them the abundance of peace and truth.

Matthew 11:4 Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see:
5 The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.
6 And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.




"Depression is perhaps the most immediately understandable of Kubler-Ross's stages, and patients experience it with unsurprising symptoms such as sadness, fatigue, and anhedonia."



Sorrow of an ill patient, tiredness, inability to have pleasure.


Belief of the scriptures breaks us out of that, if God wants us to be strong, ( strong by the power of God.) we can do what Christ did to bear the burdens of others, to not please ourselves, but to please every one our neighbour for his good to edification. ( as you thanked me for taking the time to share with you.)

We also do not faint, we carry on in this faith and hope.



Romans 15:1 We then that are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves.
2 Let every one of us please his neighbour for his good to edification.
3 For even Christ pleased not himself; but, as it is written, The reproaches of them that reproached thee fell on me.

2 Corinthians 13:4 For though he was crucified through weakness, yet he liveth by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you.


2 Corinthians 4:1 Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;
2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.

2 Corinthians 4:16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.
17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;
18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.


Hebrews 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.



"Acceptance describes recognizing the reality of a difficult diagnosis while no longer protesting or struggling against it. "



The difficult diagnosis is for all who are walking away from the testimony. ( the judgement is coming soon)



Hebrews 12:25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:


Hebrews 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
29 For our God is a consuming fire.


2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Jude 1:22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:
23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

 

[gordon777]

1. God knows where people are at.
A woman whose man never cheats on her but never spends time with her is in a rough spot.

2. There are things that must be unraveled in the mind. There are different protestant beliefs I find very cultic because they never started off with the foundation of merely Trusting Jesus for who he is. Instead they trusted in a doctrine, while filled with truths, they were filled with truths for those that experienced them in the way they did, not just believed what was written about them in words. We sometimes through things passed on to us by family and tradition may have done the same. Taking scriptures and applied them to ourselves.

3. Most people want to get it right....
No one knows it all...
Just keep us in prayer

That is without knowledge too. ( these testimonies are ahead of prayer)

God joins us to Him in faithfulness, so when we do not cheat, we also do the rest too. ( mercies, righteousness, all lovingkindness.)


Hosea 2:19 And I will betroth thee unto me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies.
20 I will even betroth thee unto me in faithfulness: and thou shalt know the Lord.

Romans 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.



That is why the doctrine of the Lord is testified to not be by man, to never be taught by man.


John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name Israel could not receive through the Pharisees/teachers)

Galatians 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.



Matthew 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

Ephesians 4:20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:



Most people want to get it wrong.


Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Matthew 20:16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

1 Corinthians 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

 

[gordon777]

Why do you think no one knows it all ?

Perhaps because it gives a purpose for everybody to teach one another on forums ?

But that ( "way") has ended. ( God teaches us ALL THINGS to KNOW ALL THINGS.)


Hebrews 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

1 John 2:26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.

1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

 

[Highway54]

It is not about me being correct. It is about what the Bible says.

No sir, your understanding says that, mine says differently. One or both of us simply does not understand what it means to be "in Christ".

 

[Robert Pate]

No sir, your understanding says that, mine says differently. One or both of us simply does not understand what it means to be "in Christ".

I have been studying the Bible for over 50 years. For 20 of those years I subscribed to a theology magazine called "Verdict". Verdict was a world wide publication that was supported by non-denominational Christian scholars whose mission was to restore the historical Gospel of Jesus Christ. Some of the most prominent Christian scholars of our time wrote articles for Verdict. Verdict was directed to Seminary professors, Pastors, Christian scholars. Verdict was not for the lay Christian because it was difficult to understand. I frequently struggled with it. I have worked hard to find the truth about Jesus Christ and his Gospel. I have a better understand of the Bible than most, because I worked at it.

 

[Free]

I have been studying the Bible for over 50 years. For 20 of those years I subscribed to a theology magazine called "Verdict". Verdict was a world wide publication that was supported by non-denominational Christian scholars whose mission was to restore the historical Gospel of Jesus Christ. Some of the most prominent Christian scholars of our time wrote articles for Verdict. Verdict was directed to Seminary professors, Pastors, Christian scholars. Verdict was not for the lay Christian because it was difficult to understand. I frequently struggled with it. I have worked hard to find the truth about Jesus Christ and his Gospel. I have a better understand of the Bible than most, because I worked at it.

Lifelong JWs and Mormons have studied the Bible for as long as you or longer and also think they understand the Bible better than most because they worked at it. Yet, they are in serious error and it's all been for nothing. Don't be so sure.

 

[Tenchi]

If you think you can show John chapter 7, to not fully reveal the Pharisees as not keeping the law, you are mistaken.

No, I was talking specifically about John 7:19 that you used as grounds to make an assertion about the Pharisees being disobedient to God's law. You wrote:

"The Pharisees were testified by Christ to not keep the law at all:

John 7:19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?"

But the verse doesn't mention the Pharisees, nor is it addressed to them. Instead, in context, verse 19 is a remark Jesus made to and about "the Jews" who are referred to in verses 11, 13 and 15 also. You were in error using this verse to argue for the idea that the Pharisees did "not keep the law at all."

Firstly Jesus speaks to the Jews, ( who are guided by the Pharisees, as we will see in this chapter) that they do not keep the law. ( they seek to kill Jesus as testified in the chapter. John 7:19.)

Ah, so you do acknowledge this verse does not speak about the Pharisees. Good. There's hope for you yet.

Next we hear who it is that seeks to kill Jesus, ( which is who Jesus has testified, DOES NOT KEEP THE LAW THEREFORE.)

Some of them of Jerusalem said about they who seek to kill Jesus. Thy speak of the rulers who are not speaking anything to Jesus, although He was seen to speak openly/boldly in their JERUSALEM TEMPLE.





John 7:32 The Pharisees heard that the people murmured such things concerning him; and the Pharisees and the chief priests sent officers to take him.
John 7:25 Then said some of them of Jerusalem, Is not this he, whom they seek to kill?
26 But, lo, he speaketh boldly, and they say nothing unto him. Do the rulers know indeed that this is the very Christ?


The people had wondered why the rulers could not control Jesus. ( the rulers are those who sought to kill Jesus, who Jesus confirmed do not keep the law.)

The Pharisees heard the murmurings, and the Pharisees and chief priests sent officers to take Jesus. ( showing the rulers who sought to kill Jesus, whom Jesus said they do not keep the law, are the Pharisees and chief priests. Also some of those of Jerusalem confirmed it is the rulers, who sough to kill Jesus/which is those who Jesus had said they seek to kill him and do not keep the law.)



John 7:32 The Pharisees heard that the people murmured such things concerning him; and the Pharisees and the chief priests sent officers to take him.



The chapter even ends showing the same law breaking of the Pharisees.


The Pharisees confirm they and the rulers have not believed on Jesus. The Pharisees reveal their belief, that the people who want to believe in Jesus are cursed.

Nicodemus ( who Jesus had told about being born again.) reveals how the Pharisees he is with are not keeping the law. ( they judge, before they know what a man has done, which proves what the Pharisees did was FOLLY AND SHAME.)



Proverbs 18:13 He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him.

John 7:48 Have any of the rulers or of the Pharisees believed on him?
49 But this people who knoweth not the law are cursed.
50 Nicodemus saith unto them, (he that came to Jesus by night, being one of them,)
51 Doth our law judge any man, before it hear him, and know what he doeth?

All of this argues against something that I never said. Instead, my view regarding the Pharisees is as follows:

"It is obvious, it seems to me, that if the Pharisees were actually in constant, flagrant contravention of the various laws of Moses (moral, ceremonial, separative/civic) they would have been rejected by their fellow Jews as religious leaders. And so, when Jesus condemned the Pharisees in Matthew 15:8, it was the state of their heart, not their neglect of law-keeping, that he pointed at.

Don't get me wrong: The Pharisees were notoriously hypocritical. They were all of the things Jesus accused them of being in Matthew 23. But they were so in a way that was not immediately obvious to the general public. The Pharisees, scribes and Sadducees had a veneer of religiosity, on the surface they appeared to be obedient to the Law of God given to the Jews by Moses, observing very carefully the ceremonies, and laws of separation, and moral commandments that would be seen by those around them. Inwardly, however, in their hearts, the Pharisees were "sons of the devil," white-washed tombs full of the bones of corpses, and so on.

So, too, many believers today who are prodding and threatening fellow believers into outward obedience to God's commands, urging other children of God to think that mere obedience to God's commands is the same as having a heart of love for Him." - from post #74

There is no veneer, that is hocus pokus.

Yes, there was a veneer of obedience. This is why Christ called the Pharisees hypocrites. The idea of a hypocrite is that of a person who acts in two, usually contradictory, ways. "Two-faced" is another term used in place of hypocrite and actually comes closer to the original meaning of the word. In any case, the Pharisees were acting in two contradictory ways, on one hand being outwardly obedient to God's law, but on the other, inwardly, they were the "brood of vipers," and "sons of hell."

Matthew 23:23 (NASB)
23 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others.

Do you deny what Jesus said here of the Pharisees? Was Jesus lying about them? Or did they, in fact, obey the laws concerning tithe, as Jesus stated? If they did give tithe, then in this one respect, at least, they were obedient to God's law and your claim that they weren't obedient at all is false.

There is obeying the voice of the Lord God, not providing burnt offerings, and sacrifice. ( tithing of mint dill and cummin from the scribes and Pharisees.)


1 Samuel 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.

Did Samuel claim that the Lord had no delight whatever in burnt offerings and sacrifices? No. God, through Samuel, said that He had more delight in those who obeyed His voice than in sacrifices; God did not say that sacrifices were of no value to Him at all.

In context, Samuel was speaking to King Saul about the fact that, though God had commanded the Israelites, through Samuel, to destroy the Amalekites and all their goods entirely, they had not, but had taken for themselves livestock and other things deemed worth keeping, in disobedience to the command of God through His prophet. Though Saul and the Israelites had disobeyed God's command, Saul thought to escape this fact by telling Samuel that they were going to sacrifice some of the livestock of the Amalekites to God in accordance with Mosaic Law. Saul thought to cover his disobedience to God's direct command to him personally (and to the Israelites he ruled) with obedience to the law of ceremony and sacrifice issued to the nation of Israel generally by God. It was a crafty thing Saul was trying to do, but Samuel responded with what he said in 1 Samuel 15:22, not denying the value of sacrifice entirely, but placing God's direct command to Saul above animal sacrifice.

In light of all this, your use of 1 Samuel 15:22 doesn't seem to me to help your case any. As in the case with Saul, the Pharisees were obeying the command of God to tithe, as they ought to have done, but they weren't keeping other, more important divine commands. Neither Jesus nor Samuel indicated that disobedience to greater divine commands negated obedience to lesser divine commands, only that the former had precedence over the latter and that both ought to have been done. As Jesus clearly said, "These you ought to have done (tithing mint, dill and cummin) without neglecting the other "weightier provisions of the law."

Maybe you can see here how difficult it is to untangle the knots your making in Scripture. In one brief statement, you assert error but it takes paragraphs of explanation to counter the error.

 

[Tenchi]

That is how those of the law are summed up in Romans 2, they teach law, but they do not teach themselves. They make boast of the law and break the law. ( not keep the law as Tenchi claims.)

See above. As Jesus himself acknowledged - but you deny - the Pharisees did keep some of the law. Their disobedience to the "weightier provisions of the law" did not preclude an outward, superficial obedience to other of God's laws.

The circumcision of the Pharisees and of the Jews, is made uncircumcision. ( as they do not keep the law, they break the law.)

In trying to be argumentative with me, you've overstated your case and have to contort Scripture to maintain it. That the Pharisees broke some of God's laws does not mean they obeyed none of them. This is exactly what Jesus indicated in Matthew 23:23 and why Jesus called the Pharisees hypocrites.

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Be careful how you understand this verse, gordon777. While it is the case that breaking the "chain" of God's law in one point breaks the "chain," it doesn't follow that a man who tells a lie is therefore also a murderer or rapist. I think you'd object strongly if, being caught in a lie, you were hauled into court and prosecuted as a murderer. This would be unjust, and in defense of yourself I'm sure you would say so. A man is "guilty of all" when he contravenes God's law in one point only in that he has defied God, just as one must do in committing any sin, big or small. In any event, disobeying God's law in one instance does not mean one has not obeyed it in another.

Firstly the Pharisees neither had obedience to the law of God, nor even circumcision. ( having no faith in the law of the letter, serving in oldness of the letter is not keeping, but breaking. Romans 2:29 7:6. 2 Corinthians 3:6)

Do you see how far you're having to twist Scripture to maintain your untenable views? Yikes.

The Pharisees were not circumcised? I've shown that your claim that they were never obedient to God's law is false, but this is another claim that is just as false. Every Jew was circumcised. For males, it was as fundamental to being a Jew as believing in Jehovah. The Pharisees were not spiritually "circumcised," which could only occur by trusting in Christ as Savior and Lord, but they were most certainly physically circumcised.

Next, to further absolutely prove the Pharisees never could have faith to be obedient, and that they ever kept the law of God, is TESTIFIED, they ( all Israel including the Pharisee teachers) continued not in the covenant of God, and so are not regarded by God.

This is just more excessive overstatement leading to false assertions. See above.

Your response here totally ignores everything I explained about the verse YOU had cited. So, here again is what I wrote:

"Romans 16:25-26 (NASB)
25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past,
26 but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith;

As Paul wrote here, in the Person of Jesus Christ, the "revelation of the mystery kept for long ages past" has been manifested to "all nations." Those who receive Christ as their Savior and Lord, the "mystery" spoken of by the OT Scriptures and prophets, do so by faith, obeying the "commandment of the eternal God" to trust in, and submit to, him.

Paul doesn't say in this passage that "obedience is faith," however. They are obedient to the commandment of God who by faith receive the "mystery kept for long ages past" who is the Savior, Jesus Christ. That's all Paul indicates in the verses above. To use verse 26 as ground for saying, "the Pharisees had no obedience, because obedience is faith" seems to me rather...confused."

No person has love of their own, God is love. ( alone)

Of course we require God to dwell in us, and then HIs love to be perfected in us. ( or it is NOT POSSIBLE TO LOVE ONE ANOTHER.)

No person has love of their own? This is silly. Of course people do. They don't have the love of God, agape love, but they most certainly do love in their own flawed, human way. I know entirely godless people who love their children, caring sacrificially for them; they love their spouses in the same way, too. I know Hindus and Muslims who are every bit as loving toward their own as any Christian (maybe more so, in some cases), showing generosity, patience, mercy and grace toward others.

Why do you make such extreme statements? You just put yourself in a position that is impossible to defend when you do, contorting God's word in the process.

 

[Tenchi]

1 John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.


The Pharisees did not have the Spirit of Christ in them, ( no love of God in them for one another, or any of the Jews taught by the Pharisees.)



John 5:42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.

But in none of what you offer here do we read what you've asserted: No person has love of their own. The Pharisees didn't have the Spirit of Christ in them and so they didn't possess the love of the Spirit, but this doesn't mean, therefore, that they had no love at all. This is all John 5:42 indicates.

If anyone can love the brothers ( love your neighbour as yourself) they pass from death ( of those in the law/.Pharisees in sin, who all die not in faith/in Adam. John 8:24) to life. ( everybody in Christ is made alive. 1 Corinthians 15:22.)

*Sigh* Just so much error...

John 8:22-24 (NASB)
22 So the Jews were saying, "Surely He will not kill Himself, will He, since He says, 'Where I am going, you cannot come'?"
23 And He was saying to them, "You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world.
24 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."

What does Jesus say here is the key to not dying in one's sins? Loving others in fulfillment of God's law? No. Jesus says "Unless you believe that I am He (who is from above), you will die in your sins." Out of this belief, godly love arises; for when one believes in Christ, then they are indwelt by the Spirit and his love is "shed abroad in their hearts" (Romans 5:5).

1 John 3:14 (NASB)
14 We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death.

Loving the brethren is described here as a sign of having passed from death into life; it is not said to be the means of doing so. It is false, then, to say that "if anyone can love the brethren, they pass from death." Rather, it is the case that, because one has passed from death into life, they are able, and desire, to love the brethren.

You mention the believer, believer in what ?

Belief in obedience, or belief in disobedience ?

Belief in Christ, of course. I don't know what "belief in obedience" even means.

But if it is belief in the obedience of ONE, then obedience comes with belief. ( showing they are one and same.)

We are commanded in God's word to trust in Christ and receive him as our Savior and Lord (John 3:16; Romans 10:9-10; John 14:6; 1 John 5:11-13). We are not commanded to believe in his obedience, and so, be saved.

How then are you going to continue to dismiss that what has been revealed by that obedience of ONE, is the obedience of faith.

You aren't actually reading anything I'm writing, are you? If you are, it's clear you don't understand what I'm writing.

You cant ever know things with that attitude Tenchi, deciding what is what before you even are answered.

Brother, you've given a great many "answers" to which I've carefully responded, showing how in error your thinking and handling of God's word is. This is my "attitude." Yours, on the other hand, has been the very sort that you accuse me of possessing. Interesting, that.

Of course you are wrong, ( how often are you shown wrong on every single detail, and and never can acknowledge a single thing.)

Here we go AGAIN.

You're going to have to reconcile yourself to the fact that I'm going to require far more from you in order to be convinced of your ideas than you've offered so far. I'm not ever going to accept the sort of confused, over-stated, and outright false ideas you're constantly putting forward. If this bothers you, stop commenting on my posts.

 

[Tenchi]

Is the Spirit, the Spirit of obedience?

The Spirit rests on the Son of God, of the fear of the Lord.


Isaiah 11:2 And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord;
3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the Lord: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:

So, where in Isaiah 11:2 is the Holy Spirit called the "Spirit of obedience"? Nowhere.

I know ears can be dull of hearing Tenchi, so here it is again for you, the second time as I know you might not have just caught what I have already just shown to you. ( and your focus might just be going elsewhere just for the sake of dispute.)

That fear ( Spirit) is the new covenant not made previously with God and man, of the fear of the Lord put in our hearts and then they can OBEY. ( in the Spirit)


Jeremiah 32:40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

Snide remarks only reveal how weak your position is in your own mind. It isn't that my "ears are dull of hearing" but that I'm unwilling to accept your enormous collection of errors. And if anyone is keen to dispute, it's you. I didn't, after all, start our exchange in this thread, you did, picking a fight with me about my remarks.

How in the world do you come to the idea that the "fear of the Lord" is the New Covenant? This isn't the New Covenant at all. In fact, the fear of the Lord is characteristic of the Old Covenant, occupied with law-keeping and near-constant sacrifice for sin. The New Covenant is the "new and living way" made through the once-for-all sacrifice of Christ at Calvary:

Hebrews 10:15-22 (NASB)
15 And the Holy Spirit also testifies to us; for after saying,
16 "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put my laws upon their heart, and on their mind I will write them," He then says,
17 "AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
18 Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin.
19 Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus,
20 by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh,
21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God,
22 let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

1 Corinthians 11:24-25 (NASB)
24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, "This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me."
25 In the same way He took the cup also after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

Under this New Covenant, Paul wrote:

Romans 8:15 (NASB)
15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!"

Maybe now you can see why I think your idea about the New Covenant is awry.

By the way, Jeremiah 32:40 isn't talking about the New Covenant. Understood in context, it is a promise God made specifically to the OT Israelites:

Jeremiah 32:36-42 (NASB)
36 "Now therefore thus says the LORD God of Israel concerning this city of which you say, 'It is given into the hand of the king of Babylon by sword, by famine and by pestilence.'
37 "Behold, I will gather them out of all the lands to which I have driven them in My anger, in My wrath and in great indignation; and I will bring them back to this place and make them dwell in safety.
38 "They shall be My people, and I will be their God;
39 and I will give them one heart and one way, that they may fear Me always, for their own good and for the good of their children after them.
40 "I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from Me.
41 "I will rejoice over them to do them good and will faithfully plant them in this land with all My heart and with all My soul.
42 "For thus says the LORD, 'Just as I brought all this great disaster on this people, so I am going to bring on them all the good that I am promising them.

How you mistook verse 40 for a promise to New Covenant, Gentile, born-again believers, I just can't understand. In context, it's so obvious God is speaking to His Chosen People, the Israelites, it seems to me impossible to miss. But miss it you did.

 

[Tenchi]

David did not die for us, ( nor anyone else die for us.) but the love of Christ is clear, we know that all were dead ( including David) as Christ DIED FOR ALL.

What's this got to do with the price of tea in China? Nothing. Nor does it have anything to do with what I wrote.

The long list in Hebrews is good that you remember it.

They all died, (Including Elijah and Elias in faith. 2 Kings 2:9. Mark 9:13.) they all saw corruption, ( David and all) apart from Jesus Christ, who alone saw no corruption/the first begotten of the dead. ( Acts 13:36-37. Revelation 1:5.)

The faith of Jesus Christ is the love of God, ( as told above, which Jesus Christ alone showed to the world, to forgive the world of ALL dying in corruption.)

Again, this has nothing to do with my point which was that you were WRONG when you asserted that no one before the Atonement knew anything about love, obedience or faith:

"...through the faith of Christ, through the love of God laying His life down for us, and before that, the Pharisees and the world knew nothing about love, or obedience or faith,..."

As all those OT examples I mentioned to you demonstrate, before the Cross, many knew a great deal about love, obedience and faith. Rather than admit this, your (rather obvious) common tactic is to obscure your error with a bunch of off-point remarks and Scripture citations.

Do people on the forum never have the littlest bit of shame in front of others, for the sheer amount of correction that is done to their every single word ? ( will others continue their discussions anyway, regardless.)

The pot calling the kettle black. See above. Yikes.

 

[Robert Pate]

Lifelong JWs and Mormons have studied the Bible for as long as you or longer and also think they understand the Bible better than most because they worked at it. Yet, they are in serious error and it's all been for nothing. Don't be so sure.

I know that I have the truth because I know and understand the Gospel and justification by faith. The religious and the cults have deviated from the Bible. They have their own writings that are false.

 

[Free]

I know that I have the truth because I know and understand the Gospel and justification by faith.

You believe you have the truth, but I and others don't think you do. This is evident by the fact that you bring up that you "understand the Gospel and justification by faith," since following rules and commands for believers has absolutely nothing to do with the gospel or justification. It's about obedience to Christ and proper Christian living. I've pointed that you to you before.

 

[Robert Pate]

You believe you have the truth, but I and others don't think you do. This is evident by the fact that you bring up that you "understand the Gospel and justification by faith," since following rules and commands for believers has absolutely nothing to do with the gospel or justification. It's about obedience to Christ and proper Christian living. I've pointed that you to you before.

Living by laws, rules and religion has everything to do with the Gospel. It shows that you don't believe the Gospel. You are not "Free". You are in bondage to the law, Romans 4:15.

 

[Free]

Living by laws, rules and religion has everything to do with the Gospel. It shows that you don't believe the Gospel. You are not "Free". You are in bondage to the law, Romans 4:15.

Again, that is a fallacious argument. I choose to believe Jesus and John, that those who claim to follow Jesus will do as he commands; that that is a sign of his true followers.

 

[Robert Pate]

Again, that is a fallacious argument. I choose to believe Jesus and John, that those who claim to follow Jesus will do as he commands; that that is a sign of his true followers.

You have chosen to reject Paul and his New Covenant Gospel, which is also a rejection of Christ, "Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to those that believe" Romans 10:4. It appears to me that you don't believe.

 

[Highway54]

I have been studying the Bible for over 50 years. For 20 of those years I subscribed to a theology magazine called "Verdict". Verdict was a world wide publication that was supported by non-denominational Christian scholars whose mission was to restore the historical Gospel of Jesus Christ. Some of the most prominent Christian scholars of our time wrote articles for Verdict. Verdict was directed to Seminary professors, Pastors, Christian scholars. Verdict was not for the lay Christian because it was difficult to understand. I frequently struggled with it. I have worked hard to find the truth about Jesus Christ and his Gospel. I have a better understand of the Bible than most, because I worked at it.

You can clearly see the distinction between us Robert. Time will reveal if either of us are correct sir, right now everything is just opinion.

 

[Robert Pate]

You can clearly see the distinction between us Robert. Time will reveal if either of us are correct sir, right now everything is just opinion.

I try to stay away from opinion. Opinion is our idea of what is right or what is wrong. God gave us a book that is his opinion, better to go with that. For sure sin can wreck your life, don't do it.

 

[gordon777]

No, I was talking specifically about John 7:19 that you used as grounds to make an assertion about the Pharisees being disobedient to God's law. You wrote:

Just as all of Israel failed to hear God, so forums these days ( those who say they are a Christian) seem to do just the same.


God told Israel to hearken, because a law would proceed from God, and God will make His judgement rest for a light of the people. ( of all people)

God tells further, to bind up the testimony, and seal the law ( which would proceed from the Lord) among His disciples. It is to the law and to the testimony, if they ( anyone) does not speak according to that word, it is because there is no light in them. ( no testimony, no law)




Isaiah 51:4 Hearken unto me, my people; and give ear unto me, O my nation: for a law shall proceed from me, and I will make my judgment to rest for a light of the people.

Isaiah 8:16 Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples.

Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.




Israel did not hearken to the words of God, ( that a ,law would proceed from the Lord.) as they did not hearken to His law, they rejected His law and HIs words. ( of a law proceeding from the Lord God.)

God testified anyway, how Israel had never continued ( kept) HIs covenant He had made with all the people of Israel, ( they broke HIs covenant) but God would make a new covenant ( the law that proceeded out from the Lord.) and God puts His laws in the inward parts, writing the law in the hearts, to be God to Israel, and they to be HIs people.



Jeremiah 6:19 Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people, even the fruit of their thoughts, because they have not hearkened unto my words, nor to my law, but rejected it.

Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.




God would have mercy on the house of Judah and save them by the Lord their God, and will not save them by bow nor sword nor by battle, by horses nor by horsemen.

God declared Israel is not HIs people, and He will not be their God.

Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, and it would come to pass in the place where it was said unto them, they are not His people, there it shall be said unto them, they are the sons of the living God. ( Then the people appoint themselves one head. Jesus Christ, who was faithful to Him who appointed Him as Moses was faithful in all his house.)

The word of the Lord, not by might, nor by power, but by HIs Spirit, says the Lord of hosts.

The great mountain becomes a plain before Zerubbabel, he shall brings forth the headstone, crying, grace, grace unto it.



Hosea 1:7 But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the Lord their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen.
8 Now when she had weaned Loruhamah, she conceived, and bare a son.
9 Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God.
10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.

Hebrews 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house.

Zechariah 4:6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the Lord unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the Lord of hosts.
7 Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel thou shalt become a plain: and he shall bring forth the headstone thereof with shoutings, crying, Grace, grace unto it.




God further testified, His people are destroyed for lack of knowledge, and they shall be no priest to God, because they have forgotten the law of their God, God will also forget their children.

Again Israel is told to behold, ( hearken) as God would send His messenger to prepare the way before the Lord, and the messenger of the covenant ( of the law proceeding from the Lord/the law written in the heart and mind) shall come.

He is as a refiner and purifier of silver, to purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, so they can offer to the Lord an offering in righteousness. ( righteousness is not seen on the outside as Pharisees, it is when the hearts are changed, then they can offer in righteousness to the Lord.)

God comes near to them in judgement against the false swearers and adulterers. ( Matthew 5:28. 5:34.)

God declares even form the days of their fathers they are gone away from the ordinances ( the law) of God and have not kept them.

God declares the whole nation ( Pharisees to come) have robbed God in tithes and offerings and are cursed, even the whole nation. ( the Pharisees display themselves cursed in tithes and offerings in their false "keeping" of the law. Matthew 23:23.)




Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

Matthew 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Malachi 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts.
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness.
4 Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the Lord, as in the days of old, and as in former years.
5 And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the Lord of hosts.
6 For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
7 Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the Lord of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return?
8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.




Now in the message of the covenant, Jesus declares to these ( cursed) Pharisees, who had said the people who do not know the law as them are cursed, ( John 7:49.) that John prepared His way before Him. The Pharisees who never believed in the law of God did not believe in the messenger of the covenant ( the law which proceeded forth from God.) and the Pharisees rejected the counsel of God against themselves. ( as God had declared all Israel had rejected His law. Jeremiah 6:19.)

Stephen ( full o the Holy Ghost) reveals Israel ( Pharisees) as stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears. ( they who break the law are counted as uncircumcised/Pharisees. Romans 2:26.) who resist the Holy Ghost as their fathers did. ( breaking Gods law)

They persecuted the prophets of the Lord, showing the coming of the Lord of whom they were also the betrayers and murderers, they received the law by the disposition of angels, they NEVER KEPT IT.




John 7:48 Have any of the rulers or of the Pharisees believed on him?
49 But this people who knoweth not the law are cursed.

Luke 7:27 This is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.
29 And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.
30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

 

[gordon777]

What's this got to do with the price of tea in China? Nothing. Nor does it have anything to do with what I wrote.

That's correct Tenchi, what has anything you write got to do with the price of tea ?

Nothing of words is the love of God man is required to believe in.


Man has got no love that matters, which is the love of God, otherwise that love would not be shed into our hearts, by the Holy Ghost given to us.

Also any love that a person has, cannot have any value ( not even worth talking about, the weather would be more important to discuss.) because anyone who does not love their brother, through the love of God given into the heart, ( through belief in Jesus Christ) is a murderer. ( they have no Christ/no eternal life abiding in them.