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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Bible Study What happens at death?
- Thread starter OzSpen
- Start date
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Both churches I attended believe that we go immediately to be where we are intended to be. So nice when denominations agree.
On the cross, Jesus told the thief that "this very day" the thief would be with Him in paradise. I understand paradise to be what is spoken of in Luke 16,,,which would be Hades...but, in any case, my point is that it is going to happen when the thief dies.
Paul states that he'd rather be dead and with Christ,,,,which means he would be there immediately...he never speaks about having to wait for the resurrection.
Philippians 1:23-24
23But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better;
24yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.
He clearly states that he'd like to "depart" and be with Chirst since that would be better for him...yet Paul also feels he needs to remain in the flesh for the sake of new believers; to convert and teach them.
As far as I can understand, Hades was a temporary place where the unsaved were already in their permanent place...but the saved were waiting in Abraham's Bossom for the gates of heaven to be opened.
This happened when Jesus died on the cross:
Mathew 27:51-52
51And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split.
52The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;
The veil of the temple was torn...
All could enter the Holy of Holies...
Tombs were opened and many were raised.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Yes, I've also noticed this !
Nice.
Please see my post on the other thread regarding Ephesians 4:9
(must leave soon).
Anto,
I'm only interested in what the Scriptures teach of the final destiny of the damned.
Let's make a brief start. There is much more to add.
The Greek for Gehenna is found 12 times in the NT. Of these, 11 are by Jesus Christ himself.
He used rabbinic language, 'unquenchable fire' and 'never-dying worms' to demonstrate without any doubt that He wanted to make it very clear to listeners that eternal punishment is the destiny of the wicked after the resurrection. That's the only conclusion I can draw.
1. Matt 23:33 (ESV), 'You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell [Gehenna]? Here he uses the rabbinic view, 'the judgment of Gehenna'.
2. Gehenna happens at the end of the world after the resurrection (Matt 5:22; 23:33). See also Rev 20:1-15.
3. In Gehenna, the body AND soul are punished. See Matt 10:28, 'And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell [Gehenna]'.
4. Matt 9:43 gives a picture of the nature of Gehenna: 'And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire' (punishment that cannot be quenched). Cf Matt 5:22.
5. Gehenna was the place of conscious punishment: 'And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell [Gehenna], 48 ‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’ The worm doesn't die and the fire is not quenched. See also Isa 66:24.
That should be enough to get us conversing on Scripture and whether Gehenna is a place of conscious torment or annihilation.
Oz
Anto9us2
Member
Oh, Gehenna, it's more than likely our worms die not
Death and he'll are cast into the Lake of Fire, I dont want to be part of that
Christians on another board were expressing each other's' ultimate destination in theological terms, just over how evil it was to celebrate Halloween. It was Gehenna.
Death and he'll are cast into the Lake of Fire, I dont want to be part of that
Christians on another board were expressing each other's' ultimate destination in theological terms, just over how evil it was to celebrate Halloween. It was Gehenna.
God breathed life (spirit) into us, Genesis 2:7, that made us a living soul and what goes back to God when this physical body dies (returns to the dust of the ground) is that very spirit of life God gave us, Ecclesiastics 12:7. Only those of faith under the old covenant (OT) and those of faith under the new covenant through Christ Jesus (NT) will God take that spirit back and reserve it until Christ returns. At that time we are raised with a new glorified body, 1Corintians 15:51-58; 1Thessalonians 4:13-18, and then we are given back that spirit of life to have everlasting life with the Father.
According to John 3:13 no one has ever ascended into heaven other than Christ. Scripture says we sleep (not the false teaching of soul sleep) in the ground until the coming of the Lord. Those whose names are written in the Lambs Book of Life will be raised to everlasting life with God and those who names are not found will face Gods Great White Throne Judgment and will be cast into the lake of fire, John 5:28, 29; Revelations 20:11-15.
We have always been taught hell is a place where non-believers in God go to for eternity, but according to scripture this is not what hell is. Hell is described as the world of the dead, a place where the departed go that have died as being lowered in a grave/pit. There they are kept until the return of Christ to either stand in Gods Great White Throne judgment for those who are not found written in the Lambs Book of Life, Rev 20:11-15, or those who have died in Christ that will stand in his judgment to give an account for the things done here on earth, 2 Corinthians 5:10.
Hell is not the lake of fire as God gives us a description of the lake of fire as in fire and brimstone which can be used literal as in Sodom and Gomorrah burned to ashes and as a metaphor for torment, suffering, punishment or as Matthew 8:12 describes it as outer darkness. The New Testament description is a bottomless pit (abyss) (Revelation 20:3), a lake (Revelation 20:14), darkness (Matthew 25:30), death (Revelation 2:11), destruction (2 Thessalonians 1:9), everlasting torment (Revelation 20:10), a place of wailing and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 25:30), and a place of gradated punishment (Matthew 11:20-24; Luke 12:47-48; Revelation 20:12-13), everlasting fire Matthew 25:41, everlasting punishment, Matthew 25:46, lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance: Hell
Hebrew # 7585 Sheol, Hades, or the world of the dead, grave, hell, pit
Greek # 86 place of departed souls, grave, hell
Greek # 1067 Gehenna, the Valley of the sons of Hinnom South of Jerusalem, figuratively and literal of place of punishment.
Greek # 5020. Tartaroo tar-tar-o'-o from Tartaros (the deepest abyss of Hades); to incarcerate in eternal torment:--cast down to hell.
Hades is the English of the Greek word ᾅδης, just as Gehenna is the English for the Greek word γέεννα and Tartaros is the English word for the Greek word ταρταρόω
The English word hell, back in 1611, meant about the same as Hades, that being covered or unseen as in grave/pit. We do not see those in the grave as they are unseen to the eye as they are covered with dirt, or some placed in a tomb. The word hell is derived from the Saxon helan, to cover, and signifying merely the covered, or invisible place. The habitation of those who have gone from the visible terrestrial region to the world of spirits.
Jude 1:7 clearly states an example of eternal fire. This is the same Greek word that is used for everlasting fire and everlasting punishment as used in Matthew 18:8 and Matthew 25:41,46 (Notice: The place, as no real name is given, where the unsaved go is everlasting punishment, and not everlasting punishing. The punishment is eternal in its results, not in its duration. Unquenchable fire is a fire that cannot be quenched or put out until everything in its path is burned up.
Gehenna - Valley of Hinnom, Old Testament as Gai Ben-Hinnom, Tophet, in the Talmud as Gehinnam
The oldest historical reference to the valley is found in Joshua 15:8, 18:16 which describe tribal boundaries. The next chronological reference to the valley is at the time of King Ahaz of Judah who sacrificed his sons there according to 2 Chron. 28:3. Isaiah does not mention Gehenna by name, but the burning place, Isaiah 30:33 in which the Assyrian army are to be destroyed, may be read Topheth, and the final verse of Isaiah which concerns the corpses of the same or a similar battle, Isaiah 66:24 , where their worm does not die. Also read Jeremiah 19:6-8 as a reference to the dead bodies that are thrown over the wall of Jerusalem into Gehenna/Tophet.
(Part of this is from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehenna and the last part starting with Jeremiah 19:6-8 is my own writing.)
Flavius Josephus describes in his book of wars:
Now the seditious at first gave orders that the dead should be buried out of the public treasury, as not enduring the stench of their dead bodies. But afterwards, when they could not do that, they had them cast down from the walls into the valleys beneath. (War 5.12.3).
According to John 3:13 no one has ever ascended into heaven other than Christ. Scripture says we sleep (not the false teaching of soul sleep) in the ground until the coming of the Lord. Those whose names are written in the Lambs Book of Life will be raised to everlasting life with God and those who names are not found will face Gods Great White Throne Judgment and will be cast into the lake of fire, John 5:28, 29; Revelations 20:11-15.
We have always been taught hell is a place where non-believers in God go to for eternity, but according to scripture this is not what hell is. Hell is described as the world of the dead, a place where the departed go that have died as being lowered in a grave/pit. There they are kept until the return of Christ to either stand in Gods Great White Throne judgment for those who are not found written in the Lambs Book of Life, Rev 20:11-15, or those who have died in Christ that will stand in his judgment to give an account for the things done here on earth, 2 Corinthians 5:10.
Hell is not the lake of fire as God gives us a description of the lake of fire as in fire and brimstone which can be used literal as in Sodom and Gomorrah burned to ashes and as a metaphor for torment, suffering, punishment or as Matthew 8:12 describes it as outer darkness. The New Testament description is a bottomless pit (abyss) (Revelation 20:3), a lake (Revelation 20:14), darkness (Matthew 25:30), death (Revelation 2:11), destruction (2 Thessalonians 1:9), everlasting torment (Revelation 20:10), a place of wailing and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 25:30), and a place of gradated punishment (Matthew 11:20-24; Luke 12:47-48; Revelation 20:12-13), everlasting fire Matthew 25:41, everlasting punishment, Matthew 25:46, lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance: Hell
Hebrew # 7585 Sheol, Hades, or the world of the dead, grave, hell, pit
Greek # 86 place of departed souls, grave, hell
Greek # 1067 Gehenna, the Valley of the sons of Hinnom South of Jerusalem, figuratively and literal of place of punishment.
Greek # 5020. Tartaroo tar-tar-o'-o from Tartaros (the deepest abyss of Hades); to incarcerate in eternal torment:--cast down to hell.
Hades is the English of the Greek word ᾅδης, just as Gehenna is the English for the Greek word γέεννα and Tartaros is the English word for the Greek word ταρταρόω
The English word hell, back in 1611, meant about the same as Hades, that being covered or unseen as in grave/pit. We do not see those in the grave as they are unseen to the eye as they are covered with dirt, or some placed in a tomb. The word hell is derived from the Saxon helan, to cover, and signifying merely the covered, or invisible place. The habitation of those who have gone from the visible terrestrial region to the world of spirits.
Jude 1:7 clearly states an example of eternal fire. This is the same Greek word that is used for everlasting fire and everlasting punishment as used in Matthew 18:8 and Matthew 25:41,46 (Notice: The place, as no real name is given, where the unsaved go is everlasting punishment, and not everlasting punishing. The punishment is eternal in its results, not in its duration. Unquenchable fire is a fire that cannot be quenched or put out until everything in its path is burned up.
Gehenna - Valley of Hinnom, Old Testament as Gai Ben-Hinnom, Tophet, in the Talmud as Gehinnam
The oldest historical reference to the valley is found in Joshua 15:8, 18:16 which describe tribal boundaries. The next chronological reference to the valley is at the time of King Ahaz of Judah who sacrificed his sons there according to 2 Chron. 28:3. Isaiah does not mention Gehenna by name, but the burning place, Isaiah 30:33 in which the Assyrian army are to be destroyed, may be read Topheth, and the final verse of Isaiah which concerns the corpses of the same or a similar battle, Isaiah 66:24 , where their worm does not die. Also read Jeremiah 19:6-8 as a reference to the dead bodies that are thrown over the wall of Jerusalem into Gehenna/Tophet.
(Part of this is from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehenna and the last part starting with Jeremiah 19:6-8 is my own writing.)
Flavius Josephus describes in his book of wars:
Now the seditious at first gave orders that the dead should be buried out of the public treasury, as not enduring the stench of their dead bodies. But afterwards, when they could not do that, they had them cast down from the walls into the valleys beneath. (War 5.12.3).
B
ByGraceThruFaith
Guest
Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire
(NOTE: Sodom and Gomorrha were completely destroyed with the vengeance of eternal fire = JUDGEMENT.
Question: Is that eternal fire still burning? I don't think so, but, they were destroyed FOREVER.
Rev 20:
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death
dianegcook
Member
I didn't say Ghenna was the Lake of fire.
Rev.14:10,11
...Shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb.
And the SMOKE of their TORMENT ascending up 4 ever....
Psa.37:20
But the wicked shall PERISH, and the enemies of the Lord, shall be as the fat of lambs, THEY SHALL CONSUME, INTO SMOKE SHALL THEY CONSUME AWAY....
Ezek.28:18,19
I will bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall DEVOUR THEE, will bring thee to ASHES...
Thou shalt be a terror, and NEVER SHALT THOU BE ANY MORE.
God is a consuming fire...
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that HE gave His only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in Him SHOULD NOT PERISH....
Perish=destroy fully, die...
If you say that they have eternal life , that goes against this simple verse.
You do not have eternal life in the Lake of Fire...
Makes me love the Lord even more, for His mercy!
dianegcook
Member
Yes, the role of the antichrist and beast are over, never to appear again..
dianegcook
Member
You stated,"the unsaved go to everlasting punishment, and not everlasting punishing. The punishment is eternal in its results, not duration."
I applaud you
, very well said!You have a talent for explaining things better than I.
If you read Ezekiel 16: 1-59 this is God punishing Israel comparing them to those of Sodom and Gomorrah as Israel becomes a harlot following in their footsteps. It says Sodom and Samaria are termed sisters of Israel for how Israel went by the wayside not being obedient to God. The acts of Sodom and Gomorrah are throughout the whole world and these people will be destroyed in the day of God's judgement.
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Key word "Never"
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”
Same as Jesus - the body dies but alive in the spirit.
For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands.
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”
Same as Jesus - the body dies but alive in the spirit.
For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands.