What if Adam had not sinned ?

[smaller]

smaller,

I was thinking about your answers, and your doctrine. I want to ask you:

You believe in a God that created man, and Satan to enter his body and make him sin so he could save him.

Is this correct?

I believe that God has placed HIS CHILDREN into DUST and made that DUST subject to weakness, corruption and dishonour for many DIVINE REASONS, one of which is the JUDGMENT OF SPIRITUAL WICKEDNESS.

We carry our own enemies within us to our respective crosses in service to GODS DIVINE JUDGMENTS.

Man is NOT ALONE in the matters of SIN. The DEVIL is attached to these matters and that makes us NOT alone on that side of the ledgers.

IF you realized that the workings 'we' carry in our flesh WILL HEAR the most HARSH Words of God, you would not so quickly IMMUNIZE your'self' from that side of the WORD.

I believe EVERY WORD of God is fully applicable TO ME, even the ones I DON'T REALLY LIKE PERSONALLY.

It is 'easy theology' that TAKES AWAY the HARSH REALITIES of Gods Words to themselves and PLACES them upon OTHER PEOPLE. To me this is the GREATEST form of DECEPTION.

I believe when Jesus spoke to SATAN in Peter, that the FULL BRUNT of every damnation Word ever spoken COULD have applied to SATAN in Peter, yet not have been TO Peter.

Do you understand this simplicity?

Just as the LAW OF THE GARDEN came to the LAWLESS one IN Adam, so that same LAW (whatever COMMAND there is) is to the LAWLESSNESS/LAWLESS ONE in all of us who arrived therein where THE WORD of God is sown.

If you DO recognize this simple fact, you will do you and your fellow man some good. If you do not recognize the DIFFERENCE between Peter and Satan, then you are going to have issues with many matters of scriptures.

Everyones SIN is in fact OF THE DEVIL inclusive of YOURS.

We are not about to make that working OBEDIENT or LEGAL by our 'moral choices.' The finest EXTERNAL MORAL CHOOSER on earth can still be A RAGING DEVIL within and none would SEE IT or KNOW IT.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[mamre]

Apart from GOD WITHIN any man such individual pursuits are POLYTHEISTIC FOLLIES.

Smaller,

Here is something for you to chew on, since you love to throw in the word polytheist.
I am assuming I have the same understanding that you have of the term.

Based on the Bible you could be considered a polytheist.

These are all in the Bible:

God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
...
I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
Psalms 82

Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
John 10:34

And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: (emphasis added)
Gen 3:22 According to the Bible Adam had become as one of us (Were there another God to whom the Lord was talking to)

For thou hast made him a little lower than the gods (in Hebrew version), and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
Psalms 8:5

Thou madest him a little lower than the gods (in Hebrew version);
Hebrews 2:7

You have the freewill to not respond to this if you don't feel inclined to.

Be well

mamre

 

[smaller]

You have the freewill to not respond to this if you don't feel inclined to.

Be well

mamre

We've pretty well run our courses on these subjects mamre. Not everyone will be led to see like you and perhaps even less like me, which is fine by me.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[LostSoul]

burr:



You have no scriptural support this statement. If it was true Adam could not have sinned as Jesus did not !

Adam was made in God's image and up until His sin what was wrong with him? Scripture does not say that Adam was not perfect in his faith. For it did seem him and Eve were both like small children in their faith...obedient and unquestioning in their faith until tempted by Satan.

Then this is simply how I undertstood what is written. If I am wrong, then I am sorry. Hopefully God will steer me straight on this.

Jesus was far more than perfect in faith, for He not only did not allow Himself to be swayed at the first signs of doubt. Jesus was perfect in body, mind, heart, and spirit. He was the entire package. He was and is all we are implored and encouraged to be.

 

[mamre]

Smaller,

Do you believe this statement?

You believe in a God that created man, and Satan to enter his body and make him sin so he could save him.

A YES or NO, would be the most simple answer to me. Can you answer that?


Be well,
mamre

 

[smaller]

Smaller,

Do you believe this statement?

You believe in a God that created man, and Satan to enter his body and make him sin so he could save him.

Why is it that you can't seem to come to factual grips in our conversations?

I have made my statements, provided scriptures.

Adam was GODS son. Do you think GOD LOST HIM? Do you think Gods son LOST himself?

I don't believe that was possible. How's that?

God DID immerse His son, Adam into the DUST of a NATURAL BODY that was 'subject to' MANY things that you don't seem to be able to acknowledge, because your needle is stuck on the replay of the scratch in the record you have in your MIND.

You want YES OR NO'S? I believe there were MANY DIVINE REASONS that God placed HIS son, Adam into his environment and those REASONS are vastly MORE superior than you are able to come to grips with.

In short...my answer is NO.

God FULLY intended there to be A FIRST or NATURAL Adam and A FINAL, SPIRITUAL Adam who IS AT ONE with HIS FATHER. This was ALWAYS Gods Intentions from the beginning and it was NOT to 'leave him in the DUST' as YOU proposed.

To see these intentions in more detail, take a glide through 1 Cor. 15 sometime and get back to me.

Your dissection of this complex matter is, excuse me, childish. Protology is a WONDERFUL arena of christian theology that is FILLED with MANY DIVINE DISCOVERIES that many are not meant to see because they are STUCK IN A RUT of another man's makings. Your entire PREMISE revolves around ADAM alone in his supposed 'freewill' choice situation and as previously pointed out 'in detail' this is simply NOT the logical case.

Neither GOD or the SERPENT can be logically ruled OUT of 'interactions' WITHIN Adam. This much is A FACT.

I would also consider that GOD in this present environment has INTENTIONS going on with the SERPENT as well, and ADAM played his role in that matter.

You might also note that the SERPENT eats DUST...and it ain't DUST ON THE GROUND, but DUST OF THE BODIES of mankind. I doubt that in your entire lifetime that a CRACK of spiritual understanding could come to you on this SOLE FACT alone.

Play your record and be happy with same. But don't expect everyone to fall into the same track when there are vastly more wonderful viewings available.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[mamre]

We've pretty well run our courses on these subjects mamre. Not everyone will be led to see like you and perhaps even less like me, which is fine by me.

Friend,
You have the freewill to even believe that God makes evil. God himself gave you that freewill. That is the beauty of freewill, you can believe in anything you want.

You have chosen to not reply on the polytheist comments. That is fine with me. I respect your freewill.

But I suggest you need to study all those passages, particularly the one where God is saying: 'man has become like one of us and ask yourself or your minister. Who is "us"? Was God talking to another God? And if He did talk to someone else that was there with Him, Does that make you, Bible believer, a polytheist?

Surely, if He did all the creation alone, he would not be referring to Himself as "us." Would he?

When you use the word "polytheist" you need to make sure and be very careful you understand what that really means. As you can see above, you can be called a polytheist based on the Bible itself. Be careful.


I don't think the course is run but you don't need to reply.

I need to make it clear though:
I was never out to win any argument. I just wanted to witness to you and everyone that sees theses messages that. Adam could not sin, because he had not eaten of the fruit of good and evil yet. It stands to reason, that if he could not distinguish what evil was, he could not sin. Paul says that the sting of death is sin. Since before the fall he could not die, than it stands to reason he had not yet being stung by sin. On the other hand, he could disobey and transgress. But not sin. Right after he ate the fruit he became a sinner, that is why he was cast out of the garden.
And I know I have shown that plenty.

Again you don't need to continue to reply to my posts. No need.


Finally, there in one important truth we all need to understand:

Just believing in some doctrine doesn't make it true. Doesn't matter what you believe in. The act of believing doesn't make anything true.

You need to confirm what you believe is truth with God, directly, without intermediaries. NOW THAT, takes faith.

Be well,
mamre

 

[smaller]

Friend,
You have the freewill to even believe that God makes evil.

That takes only reading comprehension skills. I cited several specific texts that make those positions and I accept them as they are written.

God himself gave you that freewill. That is the beauty of freewill, you can believe in anything you want.

I certainly feel free to 'reflect' upon what is written, and understanding that entails only seeing IN PART. I find no total freedom in partial sight in any case, but I study and learn regardless in the hope for better vision.

You have chosen to not reply on the polytheist comments. That is fine with me. I respect your freewill.

I made that observation and you agreed that NONE of us make ourselves as Perfect as God all by our lonesome selves as that is logically VOID IF apart from Gods dwelling with and in us. Thought we put that to rest already?

But I suggest you need to study all those passages, particularly the one where God is saying: 'man has become like one of us and ask yourself or your minister. Who is "us"? Was God talking to another God? And if He did talk to someone else that was there with Him, Does that make you, Bible believer, a polytheist?

If you are asking again if a MAN can make himself BY HIMSELF as Perfect as GOD, that answer remains a firm-NOT POSSIBLE. And yes, that IS Poly theism. There are NOT multiple GODS who MAKE THEMSELVES as such.

Surely, if He did all the creation alone, he would not be referring to Himself as "us." Would he?

The 'us' statement is a figure of the TRINITY, not of MULTIPLE GODS. God The Father, God the Holy Spirit and God the IMAGE in Son and Living Word. There is your 'us.' Any joined therein are a PORTION OF same, not GODS individually made by their own SELF efforts in 'freewill.' That would be POLYTHEISM, which obviously has some issues.

When you use the word "polytheist" you need to make sure and be very careful you understand what that really means. As you can see above, you can be called a polytheist based on the Bible itself. Be careful.

Uh, that would be A FIRM NO.

I don't think the course is run but you don't need to reply.

If you review the matter I believe you already agreed that God is indeed within us in these matters.

If however you want to make yourself God by your own freewill WITHOUT God, you are certainly welcome to that position and I feel just fine in calling that what it is, Poly-theism.

I need to make it clear though:
I was never out to win any argument.

Nor I. I am an observer and handler of what I think I see, just as we all are.

Scripture is very much a reflection of what is within us more than anything else. A discerner of our hearts, the thoughts and intentions therein. It is said that as we study it, we come to learn that the Word is also studying us, if you can understand that?

I just wanted to witness to you and everyone that sees theses messages that. Adam could not sin, because he had not eaten of the fruit of good and evil yet.

And in that view we differ based on the presentations laid forth respectively. I am content that we view the matters differently. Hold whatever positions you care to. Matters not one whit to me.

It stands to reason, that if he could not distinguish what evil was, he could not sin.

IF you want to take on the specific observations that I've made you are welcome. To make assertions that are not available in the text is a dead end. I cannot honestly RULE OUT either God or the Devil in the actions of Adam. That's about as simple as I can make the observations. If you can, so be it.

Paul says that the sting of death is sin. Since before the fall he could not die,

There is no such statement that Adam couldn't DIE. The penalty of death by Gods Own Lips by THE LAW or COMMAND makes it certain at the very least that Adam was in fact 'subject to DYING.' Were Adam not 'subject to 'DEATH' that LAW would have had NO USE in delivery. But of course that is my opinion. IF as you say ADAM COULD NOT DIE, then delivery of the DEATH PENALTY as a possibility would not have carried MUCH weight, if ANY. The conclusion I make in this matter is that Adam WAS subject to the DEATH penalty at the very least in 'possibility.' And as a reality that IS what happened.

IF Adam flat out COULD NOT DIE, then the penalty in the Law was meaningless. Therefore logic does dictate that ADAM COULD possibly DIE, and he DID.

than it stands to reason he had not yet being stung by sin. On the other hand, he could disobey and transgress. But not sin. Right after he ate the fruit he became a sinner, that is why he was cast out of the garden.
And I know I have shown that plenty.

And there we have a basic difference on what happened. I believe that what Jesus said IS true, that where the Word is sown, Satan enters. The Word was sown in Adam, Satan, the lawless one entered. You are free to bypass that view. I believe what Jesus said applied to Adam and Eve and the serpent is therefore encompassed into their equations.

Again you don't need to continue to reply to my posts. No need.

There really is no use in repeating positions. You are free to believe that where the Word is sown satan did NOT enter. That's fine with me. You are also free to believe that THEIR SIN was not connected to the DEVIL (1 John 3:8) I can't say that for Adam and Eve, but you are welcome to that view. Again, there is no use repeating the statements or saying 'you don't have to answer' because this has already been delineated multiple times. yawn.

Finally, there in one important truth we all need to understand:

Just believing in some doctrine doesn't make it true. Doesn't matter what you believe in. The act of believing doesn't make anything true.

True. That's why I try sincerely to stick to the scriptures that I see as applicable to the matters. I can't rule either God or the devil OUT of interactions with man's will on the basis I see in the scriptures, therefore 'freewill' remains an illogical assertion apart from fact. Again, you are welcome to deny either God or the devil have ANYTHING WHATSOEVER to do with 'mans will.' I just can't see that as scriptural fact.

You need to confirm what you believe is truth with God, directly, without intermediaries. NOW THAT, takes faith.

Be well,
mamre

You are free to believe you are immune to the occupancy of both God and the devil from your will. I will believe that is not the case.

Therein we will have to reflect differently on these matters.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[Bazz1040]

Adam was made in God's image and up until His sin what was wrong with him? Scripture does not say that Adam was not perfect in his faith. For it did seem him and Eve were both like small children in their faith...obedient and unquestioning in their faith until tempted by Satan.

Then this is simply how I undertstood what is written. If I am wrong, then I am sorry. Hopefully God will steer me straight on this.

Jesus was far more than perfect in faith, for He not only did not allow Himself to be swayed at the first signs of doubt. Jesus was perfect in body, mind, heart, and spirit. He was the entire package. He was and is all we are implored and encouraged to be.

Believe me, if Adam had prefect faith he would not have sinned. The Bible tells us that Adam was not deceived as Eve was. Adam knew that Satan was lying but disobeyed what God said anyway.

Adam and Eve were sinless but they did not have the divine Nature of God. But had they eaten of the Tree of Life the Nature of God would have been imparted to them, and thereby it would have been impossible for Satan to cause them to sin.

 

[savedbygrace57]

burr:

Scripture does not say that Adam was not perfect in his faith

It does not say he was ! In Fact, He had no Faith until after He sinned.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Gal 3:

21Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life [Eternal life], verily righteousness should have been by the law.

Those who have understanding, will realize that this scripture indicates that Eternal Life was never intended with Adam, for he was made under a law covenant. At best, Adam had he not sinned, would have continued in a state of natural life and happiness, but Gods Eternal Purpose of Eternal Life in Christ, far exceeded the Life God had designed for man, such life as the redeemed shall enjoy in heaven and the renewed earth. But this Eternal Life pertained to a Covenant of Grace, from everlasting, whereby God Promised Eternal Life Titus 1:

2In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

This Promise was before Adam was created under the covenant of works in the garden !

It was made before the world was, A Promise made to the Surety of the Covenant, Christ the Son of God, who existed as the Federal Head of His People, His Church, His Body, it was made to Him for them. He asked life of His Father for them in this Covenant, and the Father gave it to Him, even length of Days for ever and ever !

2 tim 1:

1Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,

ps 21:


1The king shall joy in thy strength, O LORD; and in thy salvation how greatly shall he rejoice!

2Thou hast given him his heart's desire, and hast not withholden the request of his lips. Selah.

3For thou preventest him with the blessings of goodness: thou settest a crown of pure gold on his head.

4He asked life of thee, and thou gavest it him, even length of days for ever and ever.
5His glory is great in thy salvation: honour and majesty hast thou laid upon him.

Isa 53:

10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

 

[mamre]

True. That's why I try sincerely to stick to the scriptures... scriptural fact.

You are free to believe... I will believe that is not the case.

Hi smaller,

Thank you so much for reading my last comments, and responding to them.

There is a difference between believing and knowing. See how Jesus puts it:

John 17:3
"And this is life eternal, that they might KNOW (not just believe) thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." (emphasis added)
Notice Jesus says: life eternal is "TO KNOW" not just "to believe."



If you just stick with believing, that is all you have. You are on unstable ground. You'll be always subject to doubts. You need to convince yourself. And you cross your fingers that in the end, it will turn out to be the right thing.

On the other hand, if you know it, that is already the truth. You are on solid ground. Knowledge needs no convincing, it stands on its own, and you cannot deny it.

It is common knowledge that believing in something DOESN'T make that thing true.

If that was the case, the earth would be flat, because in the past, people believed it was flat. In their minds "that was a fact." After all, they looked at the ground, and it is flat, how could the earth be round?


Like you, they stuck with what they saw.

It turned out, what they believed, was not a fact. Some men had the courage of looking beyond the flatness of the ground. They look up, to the stars. They found that the "orthodoxy" was incorrect.

They obtained the knowledge the earth is round, and that benefited the whole mankind.

Like you said, you have the freewill to believe in what you want. But, even if you turn purple believing in it, your belief in it will not make it true.


We all need to look beyond what we believe. Beyond "flatness" of spirit. We need to look up.

When we read the word, we believe, and look up to God that witness it to our spirit, of its truthfulness. We must transform our belief into faith. Faith brings knowledge. He is the ONE that caused the words in the bible itself to be written. He can give the witness of its truthfulness. HE gives the knowledge that what we read is true.

If we don't 'look up,' we are relying on our own intellect. When we look too close to the text, our vision blurs. So, even reading the bible diligently, it is like Paul says in Rom. 3:4 "...yea, let God be true, but every man a liar..." Liars, because our understanding is not God's understanding as Proverbs puts it.

I invite you to find and stay in solid ground. Don't look only down. Don't rely on your understanding. Ask God, humbly. Look up!

Have a great day!
mamre

 

[smaller]

Hi smaller,

Thank you so much for reading my last comments, and responding to them.

There is a difference between believing and knowing. See how Jesus puts it:

John 17:3
"And this is life eternal, that they might KNOW (not just believe) thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." (emphasis added)
Notice Jesus says: life eternal is "TO KNOW" not just "to believe."

I have no issues with OSAS and adhere to same. Your point and the relevance to this conversation?

If you just stick with believing, that is all you have. You are on unstable ground. You'll be always subject to doubts. You need to convince yourself. And you cross your fingers that in the end, it will turn out to be the right thing.

You have no right to define or LIMIT my experiences with God. Sorry. You are not my God. I do not bow to your constructs. It's that simple.

On the other hand, if you know it, that is already the truth. You are on solid ground. Knowledge needs no convincing, it stands on its own, and you cannot deny it.

Let's just say that we have both been led in different directions. Where I have been LED does NOT require me to BLAME AND ACCUSE Gods son, Adam, or Eve. I do not play that game, as God has shown me HOW NOT TO.

BLAMERS and ACCUSERS of our fellow man are NOT my favorite believers, and imho are in VIOLATION of Gods Words:

2 Corinthians 5:19
that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

God has shown me 'how to get there.' I have no issues with how I got there scripturally. You maybe missed that boat? Not my issue.

It is common knowledge that believing in something DOESN'T make that thing true.

If that was the case, the earth would be flat, because in the past, people believed it was flat. In their minds "that was a fact." After all, they looked at the ground, and it is flat, how could the earth be round?


Like you, they stuck with what they saw.

What any of the above DRONE has to do with the topic of our engagements I do not know or care. You are certainly welcome to believe what YOU want to believe. I do not come by where I am today in BLINDNESS to God, His Word or His Facts therein. To say however that we 'reflect' the same is shortsighted.

God does reflect OUR OWN HEARTS back to us, to SEE what is INSIDE.

Your heart is NOT my heart. I don't expect the SAME reflections.

It turned out, what they believed, was not a fact. Some men had the courage of looking beyond the flatness of the ground. They look up, to the stars. They found that the "orthodoxy" was incorrect. They obtained the knowledge the earth is round, and that benefited the whole mankind. Like you said, you have the freewill to believe in what you want. But, even if you turn purple believing in it, your belief in it will not make it true.

No, I have NEVER said I have 'freewill.' There is no use LYING to me about what I said. I fully acknowledge MY PARTIAL SIGHT, indwelling sin, and EVIL PRESENT with me. Any believer who CAN NOT stand up to these facts and PRETENDS some other thing has already had THEIR HEART revealed to me in part and I DON'T believe they are TELLING THE TRUTH of the matters.

I can not rule out either GOD or the DEVIL from the equations of MENS WILL, nor will I bow to PARTIAL FREEDOM while presently sown in corruption, weakness, dishonour and a NATURAL BODY. You on the other hand can CLAIM anything you please. I am not all that into FANTASY christianity.

We have a FIRM HOPE in the Gospel. And it is NOT here in FULL and NOT in a corrupted BODY. We have a deposit of a greater fulfillment yet to come. I am not interested in 'selling' a PITCH to enhance my own 'doctrinal' FOLD.

Are You? Are you 'seriously' trying to recruit me by saying my understanding is FLAT WORLD and yours ROUND AND TRUE?

LOL...I need take only ONE GLANCE at your PRODUCE to see where YOU LANDED...and that is FLAT ON TOP OF BLAMING AND ACCUSING Adam and Eve, a practice that I SEE as PROHIBITED by the scriptures.

We all need to look beyond what we believe. Beyond "flatness" of spirit. We need to look up. When we read the word, we believe, and look up to God that witness it to our spirit, of its truthfulness. We must transform our belief into faith. Faith brings knowledge. He is the ONE that caused the words in the bible itself to be written. He can give the witness of its truthfulness. HE gives the knowledge that what we read is true. If we don't 'look up,' we are relying on our own intellect. When we look too close to the text, our vision blurs. So, even reading the bible diligently, it is like Paul says in Rom. 3:4 "...yea, let God be true, but every man a liar..." Liars, because our understanding is not God's understanding as Proverbs puts it.

So, you are an admitted liar then? Is this what you are telling me?

I invite you to find and stay in solid ground. Don't look only down. Don't rely on your understanding. Ask God, humbly. Look up!

Have a great day!
mamre

IF you are claiming YOU and YOUR UNDERSTANDINGS are on solid ground and the ONLY solid ground, I can only say, BEEN THERE, DONE THAT and MOVED ON.

I also recognize an attempted GUILT TRIP when I see one.

I am not a fan of blank assertions apart from scriptural FACTS.

IF Paul said SINS ARE NOT COUNTED AGAINST MEN, then you will NOT find me doing what YOU DO and practice, openly no less, against ADAM or EVE.

Therein lies our basic scriptural departure. You INSIST that I practice what is PROHIBITED and NOT DONE by God in Christ.

But hey! If you are into counting sins against others, like Adam and Eve, on the basis of their freewill, and exonerating your own sins in the processes of your own freewill produce, you just have a ball there in that little round world of yours. I will not be falling headlong therein.

I surrendered my will the day He Touched my heart, and NOT by 'choice' but by GRACE in Jesus Christ that LOVES ME to the CORE. His Will is much better than my own. Ain't tradin.' Ain't lookin at a way to 'justify' myself either.

Are YOU?

s

 

[mamre]

You have no right to define or LIMIT my experiences with God. Sorry. You are not my God. I do not bow to your constructs. It's that simple.

Friend,
I, definitely do not, nor I could limit you, nor I want to arrogate to myself any such a right. I respect your beliefs, as I expect you respect mine. As per your own words in this same post: you have the freewill to believe whatever. GIVEN BY GOD.

RELEVANCY
The relevance is that, BECAUSE YOU BELIEVE THAT GOD CREATES EVIL, your belief doesn't make it true. A doctrine is not true just because you believe in it.

You can believe all day, that Adam was evil before the fall. However, your believing in it, doesn't make it true. You don't have a witness of it. ALL you're doing is to state your belief.

I its arrogant of us to think that just because we believe in something, that belief makes that thing true.

ALL MEN ARE LIARS (Rom 3:4)
Yes, ALL men are liars. ALL of them. We ALL (in case you think citing some scriptures exempt you of it) fall short.

Only God in true. That is why you need the witness from God of what you believe, and preach.
If you don't have a witness of Him you are simply preaching your own words (as we all are liars) and not His.

That begs the question:
Do you have a witness from His Spirit of what you write, or are you just regurgitating what you have heard or read?

Here's what Isaiah 8:20 says: "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

In case you don't know: "testimony" means "witness," God witnessing to you (and your listener) by His spirit, of the truth.

If one doesn't speak according to God's law and with a witness from God (yes, you need both) there is no light in him or her.


It is that simple!

Have a good day!
mamre

 

[smaller]

Friend,
I, definitely do not, nor I could limit you, nor I want to arrogate to myself any such a right. I respect your beliefs, as I expect you respect mine. As per your own words in this same post: you have the freewill to believe whatever. GIVEN BY GOD.

Your assertion of my freewill is your limitation. I said I cannot rule out God or the devil from the will of man. PROVE you can 'do that' (you've already acknowledged that you can't rule GOD out of your will) and yer freewillhomefree.

RELEVANCY
The relevance is that, BECAUSE YOU BELIEVE THAT GOD CREATES EVIL, your belief doesn't make it true. A doctrine is not true just because you believe in it.

I'm pretty sure when God says He creates and deploys evil by His Word there really isn't much to dispute unless we re-write the texts for ya or we accept an alternative fantasy in place of statements of fact.

You can believe all day, that Adam was evil before the fall.

Sorry, you must have been reading some other poster. No sense trying to embold something as mine when it was never stated. Already said Adam was not alone in the flesh OR MIND, per Jesus' TRUTHFUL Word applied to Adam.

However, your believing in it, doesn't make it true. You don't have a witness of it. ALL you're doing is to state your belief.

Nah. How it works is I put up the position from the scriptures, and say, yeah, that's prolly true. Then you avoid engagements of particulars, insert non-existing assertions, and voila and Hey! You win! Congrats! I concede your positions to you.

See how easy that works?

I its arrogant of us to think that just because we believe in something, that belief makes that thing true.

How much 'faith' does it take to read that Jesus was born of a Virgin, when one can simply read it and say, yeah, the eyewitnesses said that's the fact.

I have no issues applying facts in favor of fantasies. The only 'fact' I have to 'believe' in is that the Words in the book are GODS and as such they are FACTS.

If not we're wasting our time to begin with and should just write our own facts to replace same.

ALL MEN ARE LIARS (Rom 3:4)
Yes, ALL men are liars. ALL of them. We ALL (in case you think citing some scriptures exempt you of it) fall short.

Well, thanks for fessin'

Only God in true. That is why you need the witness from God of what you believe, and preach.

Yeah, based on what? Assertions or facts? Do you get 'the witness' of the assertions?

If you don't have a witness of Him you are simply preaching your own words (as we all are liars) and not His.

Last time I checked assertions apart from scriptural facts with a 'witness of assertion OVER FACT prolly means the asserter is personally witnessing his assertion.

That begs the question:
Do you have a witness from His Spirit of what you write, or are you just regurgitating what you have heard or read?

Sorry. I just happened to run across a LOT of meglomaniacs within Christianity and learned to stick to as much Word as possible. Find fault if you will.

Here's what Isaiah 8:20 says: "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Yeah, that is kinda 'why' we double check both assertions and witnesses, particular when they depart from WORD FACTS, to, you know, see if they are just makin' it up as they go along with their 'witness.'

In case you don't know: "testimony" means "witness," God witnessing to you (and your listener) by His spirit, of the truth.

Well, let's see. I read the Word that says GOD LOVES SMALLER, except it wasn't written 'exactly' that way, but God witnessed to me in my heart that it was true for me. Is that what you mean?

But you see, it really was 'there' anyway. He just made it 'personal.' That was my special touch from Above, which I believe many receive, but not all.

Were God in Christ to say, STRIKE US TO THE GROUND as he did with Saul on the road to Damascus, I would prolly say that Saul's freewill would have a pretty hard time DENYING THE FACT....dig?

God is not an equal opportunity DISCLOSER and that's all there is to it.

If one doesn't speak according to God's law and with a witness from God (yes, you need both) there is no light in him or her.

It is that simple!

Again, your point is what as it relates to this conversation?

I said a couple posts ago that we had pretty well run our course on these matters. You are welcome to your assertions. I see what I see based on the Word put on the page to see.

What can we say about that other than we have had completely different DISCLOSURES from the SAME WORD. Well, I think maybe there was a little more 'evidence' from Word for what I 'read' but whatever.

Assert to your hearts content. If your freewill decides to examine what WORD put forth for both of us to view on these matters, come on round and we'll do it again.

Otherwise this conversation has entered securely into the irrelvant zone, as I see it.

s

 

[savedbygrace57]

Adam was suppose to sin !

Many people do not understand, but Adam was suppose to sin, to make way for Gods Greater and Eternal Purpose through Christ. Eph 3:


9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

Adam was created subservient to the Eternal Redemptive Purpose of Christ and the Mystery of the Gentiles.

8Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

That is, Adams sin and bringing sin into the world was needful and important for the grander purpose of preaching the unsearchable riches of Christ !

 

[LostSoul]

burr:



It does not say he was ! In Fact, He had no Faith until after He sinned.

Can you please share the passage with me? I have not yet read any that has said that, and I would like to if there is one.

 

[savedbygrace57]

burr:

Can you please share the passage with me?

You share the one that denies it !

 

[LostSoul]

burr:



You share the one that denies it !

I was not issuing a challenge to you savedbygrace. I was merely asking that if I am wrong, that you please share the passage with me this way I can reflect on scripture and pray about my misunderstanding so that way God might enlighten me.

Nonetheless, the only passages I could share with you would be in Genesis where God first proclaimed creation good. If it was not perfect the way God made it in the beginning....then what significance would Satan have as the deceiving serpent?

However, here are the passages that I said supported my view. However, you are right in the sense that there are none that outright say Adam is perfect or ever was.

Genesis 1:26-31

26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
29And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
30And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
31And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

 

[savedbygrace57]

I was not issuing a challenge to you savedbygrace. I was merely asking that if I am wrong, that you please share the passage with me this way I can reflect on scripture and pray about my misunderstanding so that way God might enlighten me.

Nonetheless, the only passages I could share with you would be in Genesis where God first proclaimed creation good. If it was not perfect the way God made it in the beginning....then what significance would Satan have as the deceiving serpent?

However, here are the passages that I said supported my view. However, you are right in the sense that there are none that outright say Adam is perfect or ever was.

Genesis 1:26-31

26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
29And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
30And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
31And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

See post 196