What if Adam had not sinned ?

[mamre]

I can see its very difficult for you to understand a simple premise such as James 4:

17Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Your interpretation of James 4 is fine and dandy. But it only applies for after Adam having eaten of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil.

We need to remember that Adam was created by God, who is perfect and would not create anything evil. In fact He created a being in His own image and likeness, which is a testament that man was created with the highest standard that is. However, Adam had to go through the innocence period that every human go through. Being innocent means he could not distinguish good from evil.

THAT IS WHY GOD PUT THE TREE OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL in the garden. That tree had a purpose. And the purpose was to eventually to give Adam that knowledge.


The definition of sin is to do evil intentionally. Any evil we do is against God, so that is sin. We do evil everyday because of our nature. But Adam was innocent and didn't have the knowledge of good and evil. In other words he didn't even know what evil was. In order for him to know what evil was he needed to eat of the fruit. Therefore, not knowing what evil was, he could not possibly have sinned. He transgressed, disobeyed, just like a little children do. But he didn't sin.

If you don't know what evil is, you cannot distinguish between good and evil. So you cannot sin, because sin is to do evil intentionally.

Be well,
mamre

 

[savedbygrace57]

mamre:

Your interpretation of James 4 is fine and dandy.

I know it is because its God's established Truth !

 

[Bazz1040]

Your interpretation of James 4 is fine and dandy. But it only applies for after Adam having eaten of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil.

We need to remember that Adam was created by God, who is perfect and would not create anything evil. In fact He created a being in His own image and likeness, which is a testament that man was created with the highest standard that is. However, Adam had to go through the innocence period that every human go through. Being innocent means he could not distinguish good from evil.

THAT IS WHY GOD PUT THE TREE OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL in the garden. That tree had a purpose. And the purpose was to eventually to give Adam that knowledge.


The definition of sin is to do evil intentionally. Any evil we do is against God, so that is sin. We do evil everyday because of our nature. But Adam was innocent and didn't have the knowledge of good and evil. In other words he didn't even know what evil was. In order for him to know what evil was he needed to eat of the fruit. Therefore, not knowing what evil was, he could not possibly have sinned. He transgressed, disobeyed, just like a little children do. But he didn't sin.

If you don't know what evil is, you cannot distinguish between good and evil. So you cannot sin, because sin is to do evil intentionally.

Be well,
mamre

All Adam needed to do was to do what God had said. If Adam did that and took of the other tree, the tree of life it would have not only given then them the life of God, it would given them the ability to know the difference between good and evil, and their desire would only be to do good. Had they chosen the tree of life, Satan would stand no chance of causing them to sin, because they would not only see him for what he is, but also, a servant(Satan) has no authority over a lord (mankind).

 

[savedbygrace57]

All Adam needed to do was to do what God had said. If Adam did that and took of the other tree, the tree of life it would have not only given then them the life of God, it would given them the ability to know the difference between good and evil, and their desire would only be to do good. Had they chosen the tree of life, Satan would stand no chance of causing them to sin, because they would not only see him for what he is, but also, a servant(Satan) has no authority over a lord (mankind).

Eternal Life was promised through Christ before the world began ! Titus 1:

2In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Adam had nothing to do with Eternal Life !

It [Eternal Life] was given in Gods Son, Jesus Christ, not Adam ! 1 jn 2:

25And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

1 jn 5:


11And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

12He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

13These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Adam was not created to be the head of those who have eternal life. What do you believe ? You believe that Jesus Christ the Son of God was a backup plan for eternal life in case Adam sinned ?

 

[mamre]

I cited my previous post in this thread. If you didn't bother to read it, I won't bother to respond to your post, as I already read yours and 'responded' to same with just as valid alternatives that are NOT like your positions, which I am very familiar with because I've taken the time to STUDY your positions and found them severely LACKING for 'myself.'

Sometimes it's good to get anothers view before trying to engage in the interests of civil and interested discourse.

s

smaller,
I have read you post and I am being honest with you I don't understand your reasoning. It doesn't make sense to me. I didn't write that to offend you. I truly don't understand what you are trying to say.

See, in one point you seem to say that because God forbid Adam of eating the fruit of knowledge of good and evil, that he didn't have a choice. Is that what you said? Well forbidding someone from doing something doesn't take away the choice. The government may forbid someone of smoking marijuana, but there are people still smoking it. Clearly they were forbidden, but they still had the choice. Of course if they are caught they are arrested, nevertheless they smoked. They didn't have a choice to not be arrested for smoking it. If they are caught they are arrested, it is not their choice. But arresting is the consequence of smoking marijuana.

By the same token, Adam had a choice: eat, or not eat of the fruit. But he had not a choice of not dieing, which was the consequence. He ate, and he became mortal. Becoming mortal for having eaten was not a choice. But eating was.

I can, for example, forbid you of writing to me. But you still can right anyway. Even being forbid, you still have a choice to write or not to write to me. So, I truly don't understand what you are trying to say.



What do you mean LACKING? All that I have written is in the Bible and it is true. Adam didn't know the difference between good and evil. Genesis says:
"And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:" Gen 3:22

What part is lacking. Not knowing good and evil means that Adam was innocent. Innocent is like a little child. A little child cannot sin until he grows to the age of accountability and distinguish between good and evil.


Only if one knows good from evil is when that person can sin.

So before eating of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil he was like a child. As soon as he ate of the fruit he became like and adult, "like one of us" as the Lord puts it. Only after he ate the fruit he could sin.


So if Adam had not disobeyed he would never become an adult "like one of us" as per God's own words. If he had not become an adult, he would not be able to have children. Therefore we would not exist today.

Be well,
mamre

 

[mamre]

Eternal Life was promised through Christ before the world began ! Titus 1:

2In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Adam had nothing to do with Eternal Life !

It [Eternal Life] was given in Gods Son, Jesus Christ, not Adam ! 1 jn 2:

25And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

1 jn 5:


11And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

12He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

13These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Adam was not created to be the head of those who have eternal life. What do you believe ? You believe that Jesus Christ the Son of God was a backup plan for eternal life in case Adam sinned ?

savebygrace,

There were two special trees in the Garden. One was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The other was the tree of life. Which one you are talking about?

God said that if Adam ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil he would "certainly die", so this one would bring death.

Since the other was called the Tree of Life, it is obvious that one would bring life. When Adam became mortal for eating of the fruit, the Lord immediately put a flaming sword around the Tree of Life. So, which you are talking about?

be well
mamre

 

[savedbygrace57]

mamre:

savebygrace,

There were two special trees in the Garden

Boy, you are missing the point I took time to show you. Dont say I did not use scripture to show you that Eternal Life was centered in Christ before the world began, and not on Adam !

 

[mamre]

All Adam needed to do was to do what God had said. If Adam did that and took of the other tree, the tree of life it would have not only given then them the life of God, it would given them the ability to know the difference between good and evil, and their desire would only be to do good. Had they chosen the tree of life, Satan would stand no chance of causing them to sin, because they would not only see him for what he is, but also, a servant(Satan) has no authority over a lord (mankind).

Bazz...

You say that Adam should have eaten of the tree of life. The problem with that reasoning is that Adam was already alive, he was already in the presence of God. He was already immortal, the tree of life would be redundant for him. God created Adam immortal with a perfect body that couldn't die unless he ate of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil.

Jesus said that the Kingdom of God belongs to the little children. He said we all need to become like little children if we want to live in the presence of God.

Little children are innocent, they don't sin, that is why they have the Kingdom of God already.

Adam was created without knowing the difference between good and evil. Therefore, he was innocent like a little child. God was in the Garden of Eden, Adam could see and talk to Him, be in His presence, bask in His glory. Adam was already in the presence of God.

Why would Adam need to eat of the tree of life if He was already like a little child and in the presence of God?

Furthermore, why God put a flaming sword around the Tree of Life after Adam became mortal by eating of the fruit of the knowledge o good and evil?

Because when Adam finally obtained the knowledge of good and evil, he started immediately to sin. He was no longer an innocent child. He could not live any more in the presence of God, for he had started to sin. So if he ate of the fruit of the Tree of Life in sin he would be living forever in his sins. He would be subject to Satan, because a sinner cannot live in the presence of God. He now, needed to repent so the atonement of Christ would have effect on him to cleanse him from his sins committed after eating the fruit. Repenting from his sins, would enable him to become again like a little child (because of the atonement of Christ that would happen in the meridian of time). That is now the only way to return to the presence of God, by becoming a little child through the atonement of Christ.

So, if you think carefully, you'll see that Adam had to eat of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil because if he didn't, mankind would never exist. Adam would be living forever in the state of innocence only him and his wife in the presence of God. That would have been a tremendous act of selfishness on his part. Disobeying God and eating of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil was an act of generosity and love towards all of us. He had it made, he could be living forever in bliss with his wife innocent with God. But he understood that if he did that we all would never had a chance to exist.

That is why the scriptures say that the Lamb of God was prepared from before this earth even existed. For us to be able to exist in this earth we would need a way to become like little children to return to the presence of God. Therefore the sacrifice and atonement of Christ was ordained even before we existed.


Be well,
mamre

 

[mamre]

mamre:



Boy, you are missing the point I took time to show you. Dont say I did not use scripture to show you that Eternal Life was centered in Christ before the world began, and not on Adam !

savedbygrace,

I think I misread your post. Never mind it.

Be well,
mamre

 

[Bazz1040]

Eternal Life was promised through Christ before the world began ! Titus 1:

2In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Adam had nothing to do with Eternal Life !

It [Eternal Life] was given in Gods Son, Jesus Christ, not Adam ! 1 jn 2:

25And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

1 jn 5:


11And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

12He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

13These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Adam was not created to be the head of those who have eternal life. What do you believe ? You believe that Jesus Christ the Son of God was a backup plan for eternal life in case Adam sinned ?

Yes, I know what you are saying. But had they eaten of the tree of Life that would have gotten eternal life. That is why after they had eaten of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, God barred them from eating of the tree of Life or else they live forever in sin. And God does not dwell in sin.

 

[smaller]

smaller,
I have read you post and I am being honest with you I don't understand your reasoning. It doesn't make sense to me. I didn't write that to offend you. I truly don't understand what you are trying to say.

See, in one point you seem to say that because God forbid Adam of eating the fruit of knowledge of good and evil, that he didn't have a choice. Is that what you said?

Uh, no.

Well forbidding someone from doing something doesn't take away the choice. The government may forbid someone of smoking marijuana, but there are people still smoking it. Clearly they were forbidden, but they still had the choice. Of course if they are caught they are arrested, nevertheless they smoked. They didn't have a choice to not be arrested for smoking it. If they are caught they are arrested, it is not their choice. But arresting is the consequence of smoking marijuana.

Were any of that relevant to the observations I made in my post #106 here:

http://www.christianforums.net/f17/what-if-adam-had-not-sinned-28659/index8.html

you'd have a point. Bottom line is your entire premise is provably lame.

By the same token, Adam had a choice: eat, or not eat of the fruit. But he had not a choice of not dieing, which was the consequence. He ate, and he became mortal. Becoming mortal for having eaten was not a choice. But eating was.

I can, for example, forbid you of writing to me. But you still can right anyway. Even being forbid, you still have a choice to write or not to write to me. So, I truly don't understand what you are trying to say.

Look, read my post and respond to it if you can. That post is the basis of my observations of YOUR post, so maybe if you read and TRY to understand it'll come to ya. I'll keep my fingers x'ed.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[savedbygrace57]

bazz:

Yes, I know what you are saying. But had they eaten of the tree of Life that would have gotten eternal life.

Eternal Life was promised before the world began through Jesus Christ, not eating from the Tree of Life.

 

[mamre]

Glad to see at least some believers 'see' the workings of the serpent in the Garden.

[/COLOR]

You formulated an elaborate doctrine indeed. But you give too much credit to Satan.

A couple of things to consider:

You are taking as true that Adam sinned. But in reality Adam NEVER sinned by eating the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. He could only sin if he knew what evil was, but he didn't know how to distinguish between good and evil.

Adam and Eve were like little children, innocent. They didn't know good from evil.

Satan has no power over us unless we allow him. The scriptures say:
"but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able;" 1 Cor. 10:13
Therefore, the enemy doesn't "enter" anyone unless that person lets him.

Also, since Adam and Eve did not know what evil was, they didn't know that Lucifer was Satan either. This very fact makes it highly improbable that God would allow Lucifer "enter" Adam or Eve as you seem to indicate.

It is true though that Lucifer was allowed by God to talk to them and tempt them. But Lucifer in no way could force or make them to eat the fruit. Eve ate of the fruit of her own volition because Lucifer convinced her to do it.

So, when Jesus says Satan "enters" or takes away the word, that only happens because those people that heard the word didn't care much for the word and ALLOWED Satan to tempt them. In a way, they just let Satan take over. Or, in other words, they listen more to Satan than to God. Which is the same that occurred with Eve.

But those that resist the temptations of Satan and their own natural inclinations, are the ones where the word grows. They expand their knowledge of spiritual things and get closer to God. That confirms what Jesus said: that the straight is the path and narrow the gate to Eternal Life and few are those that find them.

But in all that, man can still choose whether they want to keep the word or want to listen to Satan.

In summary.
Before telling Adam and Eve to not eat of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil, God had given a commandment to them of "multiply and replenish the earth."

It stands to reason that God intended for mankind to exist. But by not knowing good from evil, Adam and Eve were like children and as such they could not have children of their own. So, the answer to the question that originated all these posts: If Adam had not eaten of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, they would never have children. Therefore, the earth would not be replenished and mankind would not exist.


Be well,
mamre

 

[Bazz1040]

bazz:



Eternal Life was promised before the world began through Jesus Christ, not eating from the Tree of Life.

I know what was promised through Jesus.....God knew that Adam and Eve would sin. But the fact still is that the tree of life had they eaten of that tree they would have gotten eternal life.

 

[smaller]

You formulated an elaborate doctrine indeed. But you give too much credit to Satan.

Well, thank you for taking the time to read some of the facts. Much easier to dialog.

As to credit, you DID see the 3, count 'em, 3 statements OF JESUS regarding Gods Words being sown and the REACTIONS of Satan? And IF JESUS IS TRUE (please) tell me if Gods Words being sown in ADAM didn't cause that to happen?

Consider your words carefully because if you say NO, we'll cut this conversation real short.

A couple of things to consider:

You are taking as true that Adam sinned. But in reality Adam NEVER sinned by eating the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. He could only sin if he knew what evil was, but he didn't know how to distinguish between good and evil.

The mental acuity of Adam is not divulged in the text except by logical inferences and study of settings, players in the drama and actions.

We also know that God said it was NOT GOOD for Adam (man) to be alone. Many try to claim that it was ALL GOOD there in the Garden pre-fruit ingestion, but obviously it was NOT GOOD for Adam to be alone. Adam also apparently had the ability to communicate by naming animals and his wife.

In gentlemanly fashion, I will concede that GOD USED THE SERPENT in reactions to HIS WORDS as the fulcrum of EVIL in this matter and PLACED that working within Adam by sowing HIS WORDS of blessing IN Adam, and that by doing that it was AN EXERCISE of TRAVAIL with EVIL.

What you might consider as a trade of to agreement with this matter is that ADAM was at that point of blessing by GOD already INFECTED. Jesus said that SATAN ENTERS immediately. That means pretty quick the last time I checked.

Logically and reasonably from THIS POINT ON it is faLLacious to observe these matters APART from the workings of the Serpent. Your form of judgment is VOID of this particular FACT and also from this point you have become a TOOL of BLAME and ACCUSATIONS only unto ADAM, who was in fact Gods son. And you are also in nearly COMPLETE neglect of the judgment of SATAN/the serpent in these matters.

I consider such speakers under the same influences as Adam was. No offense to YOU as Gods child mind you. But the fact is logically we cannot DIVIDE SIN from SATAN and blame only MANS CHOICES.

Those who commit sin are in fact OF THE DEVIL. (1 John 3:8)

We might even NOTE that God CAUSED a 'deep sleep' to arrive upon Adam. Some (as I have been led to see) may even CONNECT that to the SPIRIT OF SLUMBER that was placed upon the unbelievers of Israel in Romans 11:8-9 (please take the time to LOOK at it) and they may even see from 2 Cor. 4:4 that the 'god of this world' (uh, that would be SATAN) does in fact BLIND THE MINDS of those whom God intends to BLIND to Himself. Again this shows the FACT that 'judgments' should NOT be void of SATAN.

So, spare me your backhanded comments of 'too much credit to Satan' when SCRIPTURE does a perfectly acceptable job of PUTTING Satan WITH mankind in matters of SIN.

Adam and Eve were like little children, innocent. They didn't know good from evil.

I'm certain that by the time the LAW was sown upon Adam, again GODS WORDS, that Adam was already 'wrestling' with that working of lawlessness within himself. God CONFIRMS that LAWLESSNESS was already IN Adam because the LAW is for the LAWLESS and SATAN is termed the LAWLESS one in 2 Thess. 2:7-9. Paul also told us that THE LAW is for THE LAWLESS in 1 Tim. 1:9. Again, it would be helpful before shooting from the LIP about these matters to KNOW YOUR WORD by looking these FACTS up in the text.

That LAW for the LAWLESS was this: DO NOT EAT. And that law carried a DEATH PENALTY. If you say Adam did not know good or evil I would also say that Adam probably KNEW GOOD already in many ways. I'm sure there were many pleasing sights and actions available to Adam in the Garden. Being in the presence of GOD has some pleasant advantages eh? IF Adam KNEW GOD in the Garden he certainly knew MORE than GOOD. After the LAW Adam had to try to understand DEATH and the 'less than fully free' position that God had put upon him WITH THAT LAW. Freely BUT is NOT totally FREE.

Satan has no power over us unless we allow him.

And that is also patent nonsense. Only GOD IN JESUS CHRIST defeated Satan. ALL OTHER PEOPLE have in fact SINNED and HAVE SIN. So apparently that working of SATAN is largely SUCCESSFUL in Satan's efforts to be involved with SIN in MAN. NO one is going to CHANGE the workings of SATAN in reactions to the LAW because YOU or I are NOT Satan.

Satan works his own deal with the LAW by BREAKING it. Our 'allowance' means exactly ZERO to that working of him.

Paul, in Romans 7 found himself quite HELPLESS by 'choices' in making the presence of INDWELLING SIN STOP it's reactions to the LAW. This CAN NOT BE DONE. And it cannot be done because that working is NOT between US and Satan, but SATAN and LAW. Please READ IT and understand that Paul found he actually did THE OPPOSITE of what the LAW required because of the presence of INDWELLING SIN and EVIL PRESENT.

No amount of CHOICE stops that working. NO MAN has made himself PERFECTLY LEGAL by CHOICE because ALL HAVE SINNED. (I exclude God in Jesus Christ.)

The scriptures say:
"but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able;" 1 Cor. 10:13
Therefore, the enemy doesn't "enter" anyone unless that person lets him.

What you read is not in accord to what your conclusion is. The FACT of that scripture SHOWS that TEMPTATION is inserted IN THE MIND of mankind and that TEMPTATION shows TWO THINGS. It shows the TEMPTER in MIND, and that puts SATAN in MIND (not just 'us.) And it shows that ALL are in fact TEMPTED in MIND by that working.

Temptation in mind is the FIRST WORKING of Satan. That temptation is in fact A SIN of SATAN in man. Stealing WORD from a persons heart is also A SIN of SATAN in man. Theft IS SIN. Logic should PROVE to you if you have your supposed 'choices' to actually believe FACTS that A SIN transpires IN man where the Word is sown that is NOT OF THE MANS CHOICES but OF SATAN. Theft DOES transpire. We 'all' see only IN PART and we DON'T have complete understandings of scripture because of that THEFT. The fact of this matter is openly demonstrated in the multitude and myriad of CHURCH arguments.

In Revelation Jesus spoke to the workings of SATAN in the 'churches.' That is WHERE Satan is because it is IN THE CHURCH where the Word is sown and then SATAN enters hearts just as Jesus said happens.

I'm going to cut this post short because of the post size limitations and to see if you can grasp this subject matter, PROTOLOGY, the wonderful study of BEGINNINGS.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[savedbygrace57]

bazz:

I know what was promised through Jesus.....God knew that Adam and Eve would sin

Adam had nothing to do with it. This was a Promise before the world began ! Titus 1:

2In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

eph 3:

11According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

And you need to quit exalting a creature of dust over the Creator, its blasphemy !

 

[mamre]

Well, thank you for taking the time to read some of the facts. Much easier to dialog.

As to credit, you DID see the 3, count 'em, 3 statements OF JESUS regarding Gods Words being sown and the REACTIONS of Satan? And IF JESUS IS TRUE (please) tell me if Gods Words being sown in ADAM didn't cause that to happen?

Consider your words carefully because if you say NO, we'll cut this conversation real short.

No problem smaller, I had not seen that post until you directed me to it.


If I understood well your interpretation o the words of Jesus Christ, to consider an answer to your question:


We need to look at Adam once again.

There is an opposition in all things, that is the nature of all that exists. You can only know what is pleasure if you know what is pain. You can only know what is joy if you know what is misery. You can only know what is good if you know what is evil. This is not my opinion. This is a natural law that you cannot escape from. It is like the law of gravity.

When God created Adam from the dust and breathed Adam's spirit into his nostrils, Adam had not experimented that law of opposition until he ate of the fruit.

Here are the things we need to know about the creation of Adam:

a. God cannot create anything evil, if He did, He would cease to be God.

b. God created man in His likeness, which means Adam was free as God is, to choose.

c. God created a physically perfect body for Adam (and Eve), as He could not create anything less then perfect, otherwise He would cease to be God.

d. Because we know 'c' above, we know if he kept his initial state, Adam could not die.

e. As per 'd' above Adam's body was incorruptible. He could have lived forever.

f. Because we know 'a' above, we know that Adam didn't have evil in himself, neither he knew what evil was.

g. Because of 'd', 'e', 'f', it makes no sense at all for God to 'sow' any gospel word into Adam.

h. We know that 'g' is true because Adam was already perfect, had no corruption, and lived with God.

i. To be sown with the word of the Gospel, Adam needed, first to be in a condition to be redeemed.

i. Adam was not in condition to be redeemed until he ate of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil. (The fall.)


By sowing the word, Christ meant, preaching the Gospel of Redemption to man so man can rid the evil from his heart. That was not the case of Adam before the fall.

The Gospel (if obeyed) is to bring man, eventually, to the presence of God. Adam was already in the presence of God. Furthermore, Adam had not disobeyed anything yet, until he ate of the fruit.

So, your question above doesn't apply to Adam before his disobedience.

AND, by sown, the Lord means, preaching the word of the Gospel. Sown, is more a figure of speech, than a literal act. The literal act is to preach, to talk, to try to convince, to pass a message of the Gospel. That is what Christ means by sowing the word.

Satan does exactly the same thing but in the opposite direction, to try to make man as miserable as he is. He is the father of lies and the great imitator.


When the word of redemption is conveyed to you, you can listen to it, find it nice, believe in it, apply it in your life. The figure here is that the "seed" of the Gospel took root in you.

If you hear the word, find it nice, but don't act on it. Satan will prevail upon you. That means you listen more to the enticings of Satan than to the Gospel. In other words, you didn't let the 'seed' take root in you.

In those passages, Jesus was explaining that there are several levels of people as far as acceptance when the Gospel is preached to them. Some, listen, believe and apply. Some listen, let it stay for a while then, the cares of the world make them forget. Some listen, but, 'right off the bat', don't do anything, and so on and so forth.

BUT in all those cases, immediately after the Gospel is preached, Satan will preach his "gospel of misery and lies" and try to convince you not to listen or do anything. If you yield to his influence, he snatches the word from your heart and replace it with his lies.


And by the way, I didn't make any back handed comment.

I truly mean that you are ascribing too much power to Satan. God is the creator and OWNER of all that we know. Therefore He is the One in control. As Jesus said, there is nothing that happens that is not of His knowledge. So if Lucifer is tempting man, he does solely because the OWNER and creator of the universe, ALLOWS him do so. And that allowance is in place because it serves God's purposes.

In other words, if we ascribe, those powers to Satan, as you seem to do, it is the same as implying that God has not control over him. Which is not true.


Now, I don't just believe the above, I know it. I didn't come up with all that on my own. I have studied, prayed, and pondered in my heart of the truths of what I have written above. And I have received a witness of its truths from God, directly to my spirit. So, I can tell you that I know those things to be true. And you can know too, if you desire. You definitely don't need to take my word for it, you can ask Father in Heaven with true intent, and He will reveal it to you directly to your spirit, not to your intellect, but to your spirit.


Be well,

smaller[/QUOTE]

 

[savedbygrace57]

The Life Adam was given was a corruptible life !

1 pet 1:

23Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

PS 39:5

Behold, thou hast made my days as an handbreadth; and mine age is as nothing before thee: verily every man at his best state is altogether vanity. Selah.

Who can doubt that every man was at his best state, when they stood in their natural head Adam before the fall, as fresh out of the Creator's Hand.

That the Life given to Adam in the beginning when He was upright was a corruptible life, for that was proven by the events that took place in the garden in gen 3.

The Eternal Life that God promised before the world began, is an incorruptible life. Its a life of immortality.

1 pet 1:

4To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

This is the quality of the Eternal life that God promised before the world began. It was greater, much greater than the life God gave men in Adam in the beginning !

Those who do not know what Gods original purpose was, they believe the Life in 1 pet 1:4 is a backup plan to plan A Adam, oh how foolish and wrong they are.

 

[Bazz1040]

bazz:



Adam had nothing to do with it. This was a Promise before the world began ! Titus 1:

2In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

eph 3:

11According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

And you need to quit exalting a creature of dust over the Creator, its blasphemy !

Again, I know that but the fact still remain that God knew Adam would sin. Though God placed the tree of Life in the middle of the Garden, He did not remove Satan from the Earth. He allowed Satan to get to them. But had they eaten the fruit from the tree of Life they would have gotten eternal life.

 

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a. God cannot create anything evil, if He did, He would cease to be God.

That is simply not true. God can create anything and created 'all things.'

If your position is that IF God created EVIL, then GOD is EVIL, that is pantheism. God can create 'anything' and NOT BE THAT THING created.

So yes, God can create and use evil and NOT be EVIL on the simple and logical basis that HE IS GREATER than that which He creates and uses.

b. God created man in His likeness, which means Adam was free as God is, to choose.

Another ridiculous assumption. It is true that Adam was Gods son, but the fact is that GOD CHOSE to BIND His son into DUST. Adam and his 'temporary container' of DUST was made 'SUBJECT TO' many things.

GOD IS NOT SUBJECT TO ANYTHING. When people deploy such unsubstantiated positions as your b. above, they do so with blindness to the obvious.

c. God created a physically perfect body for Adam (and Eve), as He could not create anything less then perfect, otherwise He would cease to be God.

Dust is not PERFECT, it's DUST. It is an IMAGE of Gods Perfection, but NOT the final product. Gods order is first the natural, then the spiritual. There is DIVINE ORDER and INTENT in this matter.

d. Because we know 'c' above, we know if he kept his initial state, Adam could not die.

Adam in fact DIED the instant God spoke His Blessings to Adam. Why? Because Jesus taught us that where THE WORD is sown, Satan IMMEDITATELY enters the heart to STEAL WORD, which is A SIN.

A theft of SIN transpired within Adam because of Gods Speaking to him. And that SIN was NOT of Adam, but of THE SERPENT.

e. As per 'd' above Adam's body was incorruptible. He could have lived forever.

I have ZERO belief that Gods Divine Intentions for His son, Adam was to leave him bound into a DUST (natural) BODY forever and ever. That belief is absurd. Sorry.

f. Because we know 'a' above, we know that Adam didn't have evil in himself, neither he knew what evil was.

Again and again those are mere assertions apart from factual teachings. Paul taught us that GOD did BIND all mankind to disobedience. Where is YOUR ACCOUNTING of this FACT??? (Romans 11:32) The fact is YOU HAVE no account for FACTS. Selective assertions do not make for good studies.

g. Because of 'd', 'e', 'f', it makes no sense at all for God to 'sow' any gospel word into Adam.

God assuredly sowed HIS WORD upon Adam. That SOWING transpired the instant He Spoke to Adam. Gods Words were A BLESSING to Adam and a RESISTANCE TRIGGER for the SERPENT. Same Word, TWO diametrically opposed WORKINGS then began to transpire. Gods Word BLESSED Adam and CAUSED the SERPENT to resist and to STEAL those same Words sown IN Adam.

Gods Words STILL work exactly in this way. The same Word that BLESSES MAN causes the DEVIL to be aroused to SIN IN MAN.

The ENTIRETY of your position has ZERO accounting on the DARK SIDE of the ledgers and as such are a mere reflection of LARGE MISSING and FACTUAL COMPONENTS that are taught to us BY HIS WORDS.

h. We know that 'g' is true because Adam was already perfect, had no corruption, and lived with God.

While I might agree that Adam, as Gods son, was in fact ALREADY PERFECT his CONTAINER was NOT. Adam was placed INTENTIONALLY into an IMPERFECT container. A good container, but NOT a PERFECT container meant for ETERNAL HABITATION, but a NATURAL container that was made SUBJECT TO many factors.

i. To be sown with the word of the Gospel, Adam needed, first to be in a condition to be redeemed.

Your assumptions are so far off track at this point there are just ridiculous.

God also had intentions WITH SATAN going on in these matters as well. Intentions of DIVINE JUDGMENTS in which the NATURAL ENVIRONMENT was created and deployed, because it is TEMPORARY. I find this matter to be very interesting.

Paul again in 1 Cor. 15 flat out TELLS US that we were in fact planted or sown into THE NATURAL, into WEAKNESS, CORRUPTION and DISHONOUR. There is NO REASON for anyone NOT to see ADAM planted or sown into these conditions and make up FANTASY when we have God in Christ and APOSTOLIC TEACHINGS on these matters that are FACTUAL.

i. Adam was not in condition to be redeemed until he ate of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil. (The fall.)

Again, patently false. We all know that SIN transpires first IN THOUGHT, then in word, then IN DEED and ALL of these SIN STEPS are OF THE DEVIL. (1 John 3:8)

You on the other hand just can't SEE the SIN until it shows up on the OUTSIDE. Jesus was clear that defilement BEGINS within, via EVIL THOUGHTS.

Mark 7:
21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

By sowing the word, Christ meant, preaching the Gospel of Redemption to man so man can rid the evil from his heart. That was not the case of Adam before the fall.

No man made himself by himself AS PERFECT AS GOD. That understanding is simply absurd. Even the 'thought' of MAKING ONES SELF as GOD is in fact DEMONIC in nature and proof of EVIL DECEPTION abiding in such a heart.

The Gospel (if obeyed) is to bring man, eventually, to the presence of God. Adam was already in the presence of God. Furthermore, Adam had not disobeyed anything yet, until he ate of the fruit.

There is zero reasoning available for anyone to DISCOUNT Jesus' teachings in these matters and THAT TEACHING places ANOTHER ENTITY in play in these matters which YOU have no accounting for. This is a FACT that makes ALL YOUR FACTS nearly and entirely VOID. You don't have ALL THE PLAYERS in the DRAMA on the table for viewing.

So, your question above doesn't apply to Adam before his disobedience.

There is no reason NOT to believe JESUS and instead take A BLINDED version. Sorry. I believe what Jesus taught was FULLY APPLICABLE to Adam. I believe what Paul taught was FULLY APPLICABLE to Adam...and so forth with the other Apostolic teachings such as 1 John 3:8-9.

Your teaching is what I call 'man'centric. There are in FACT 3 main players in these matters. God, mankind and DEVILS.

Paul was again CLEAR on the latter in his teachings. You have NO factual accounting of THESE FACTS:

Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Do you SEE the FACTS? Part of the reason YOU DON'T is because of those workings. Factually THEY are not 'seen' but work WITHIN mankind just as JESUS taught us.

There is no avoiding the SCRIPTURAL MATH in these matters.

All have sin, have sinned and ALL SIN is OF THE DEVIL. The EVIL WRESTLING does transpire WITHIN and is NOT only of MAN, but of the workings Paul taught above.

AND, by sown, the Lord means, preaching the word of the Gospel. Sown, is more a figure of speech, than a literal act. The literal act is to preach, to talk, to try to convince, to pass a message of the Gospel. That is what Christ means by sowing the word.

What Christ MEANS is what CHRIST SAYS. I can certainly READ what Christ said and say, YEAH, that is probably TRUE. At least substantially more TRUE than a VOIDED version of what Christ says.

IF Jesus said Where The Word is sown, then SATAN enters the HEART then THAT is TRUE. I really don't care what 'your void version' says. No offense to you mind you. GOD does work CONVERSELY with MAN and DEVILS. One working of Gods Words are FOR man and those same WORDS are AGAINST devils, provoking those POWERS into RESISTING actions, IN MAN.

Satan does exactly the same thing but in the opposite direction, to try to make man as miserable as he is. He is the father of lies and the great imitator.

Oh, finally in your list you get to the meat of this subject matter? I'd suggest you insert this fact up a little closer to the top and see what happens to your 'formulas.'

When the word of redemption is conveyed to you, you can listen to it, find it nice, believe in it, apply it in your life. The figure here is that the "seed" of the Gospel took root in you.

That SAME WORD does cause the 'god of this world' to BLIND MINDS of MEN.

After all the analysis the severe LACK in your position is to BLAME MAN and IGNORE the role of the 'god of this world.' That is why I called 'your vesions' of these matters SEVERELY VOIDED OF FACT. I wouldn't expect anyone with any amount of reasoning or reading ability to accept such nonsense.

If you hear the word, find it nice, but don't act on it. Satan will prevail upon you. That means you listen more to the enticings of Satan than to the Gospel. In other words, you didn't let the 'seed' take root in you.

Oh, so you DO see a little INTERACTIONS therein with Satan? Bravo. I'd say you're a little late to the party with that insertion.

Jesus said Satan enters peoples hearts IMMEDIATELY where WORD is sown. AT the point of this fact it is POINTLESS to view ANY MAN as alone in the matters of JUDGMENTS.

I'm again going to cut this post short, as your formulas are really really faulted.

enjoy!

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