What if Adam had not sinned ?

[savedbygrace57]

The Life given to Adam

The Life God gave to Adam in the beginning was not Eternal life, it was a life liable to corruption and death, for this is clearly implied in the words of God unto him regarding the tree of the knowledge of good and evil " for in the day that thou eatest thereof, thou shalt surely die " see gen 2:17

If Adam and the Life given to Him by God had been incorruptible, he could not have corrupted himself by disobedience.

The Life that God promised His People before the world began, that Eternal Life in His Son, was incorruptible, it was proven to be by the Temptation of Jesus Christ in lk 4.

Satan was permitted of God to test Jesus in the same avenues of the Flesh as Eve was tested by the devil.

That being these avenues:

1 jn 2:


15Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

16For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Lets see how Satan attacked Eve through these means. Observe:

Gen 3:

Genesis 3


1Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

2And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

3But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

6And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food [lust of the flesh], and that it was pleasant to the eyes [lust of the eyes], and a tree to be desired to make one wise [pride of life], she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

This occurred because the Life given to Adam and Eve was a corruptible life, it was not the Eternal Life that God promised to give His people before the world began in His Son !

Now the Son of God was also led into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil in those same avenues, the Lust of the flesh, the eyes, and the pride of life.

Now observe Lk 4:


1And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,

2Being forty days tempted of the devil. And in those days he did eat nothing: and when they were ended, he afterward hungered.

3And the devil said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, command this stone that it be made bread. [ lust of the flesh]

4And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

5And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. [lust of the eyes]

6And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.

7If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.

8And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

9And he brought him to Jerusalem, and set him on a pinnacle of the temple, and said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down from hence: [pride of life]

10For it is written, He shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee:

11And in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.

12And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

13And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from him for a season.

As we can see, Though He too was in the Likeness of sinful flesh, He was not able to be corrupted, because the Life He had was Life Eternal , in fact, He was that Eternal Life Promised, and He was with the Father before being manifested to His Disciples through the virgin Birth.

1 jn 2:

1 John 1


1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

2(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

Thats the Eternal Life promised 1 jn 2:

25And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

Titus 1:

2In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

God had a Life to give His People far superior to the Life they received from the corruptible Adam.

 

[savedbygrace57]

bazz:

But had they eaten the fruit from the tree of Life they would have gotten eternal life.

Eternal Life was Promised to Gods People through Jesus Christ, not through whether or not Adam would eat from the tree of life.

But if thats what you believe, even after all the biblical evidence I have provided you, then so be it, but you are deceived.

 

[mamre]

I'm again going to cut this post short, as your formulas are really really faulted.

enjoy!

smaller

Hi smaller,

This is not a formula, I just made a list for better visualization.


The fact remains that before the Fall (eating of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil) there was no corruption, unless Adam ate of the fruit, Gen 2:17.

1. Non-corruptible means that his body could not die. Since 1Cor.15:56. says that "The sting of death is sin;" it stands to reason that Adam (and Eve) couldn't possibly have sin, before the fall.

2. Therefore it makes no sense to say that something was sown in corruption in Adam, since his body was not corruptible.

3. He was physically perfect, otherwise he would never be allowed to be in the presence of God. And talk to God face to face.

4. Moreover, the very fact that he was IN THE PRESENCE OF GOD and interacted freely with God, FACE TO FACE, means he had NO SIN or evil in himself because sin or evil don't abide in the presence of God.

5. If sin or evil could abide in the presence of God, then there would be no reason to preach that sinners will go the lake of fire and brimstone. (So you are going against the very doctrine you believe.)

7. The term "The Fall" means that Adam was in a "high place." In other words, he was was with God, had no sin.

8. That is why Jesus is the Redeemer (Gospel of Redemption). Redemption from the Fall; not before the Fall as you want us to believe.

9. Furthermore, be it noted that Adam never yielded to Lucifer's temptations. Eve is the one that said that the 'serpent' beguiled her. Gen.3:13

10. Adam decided, on his own, to take the fruit after Eve (not Lucifer) convinced him. Gen.3:12

But the bottom line is:

Adam (and Eve) had first to Fall so the Gospel could be of any use to them and their posterity. WHEN he fell, then he was subject evil. Then the seed of the Gospel of Redemption needed to be sown in him, because now his body was truly in corruption. Before then, Adam and Eve were in a "higher place," with God.

Again, the scriptures say plenty that sin cannot abide in the presence of God. That is why there is a lake of fire and brimstone prepared for those that sin. Adam was in God's presence, THEREFORE he was not a sinner.


Man has freedom, given by God, to choose what master he wants to serve. Because of that freedom to choose, Lucifer has NO POWER OVER MAN, UNLESS MAN YIELD TO HIS ENTICINGS.

God is in control and He doesn't let Lucifer do anything that is not useful for GOD'S purposes. 1 Cor. 10:13 says: "There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able;" - God is in control no Satan.


You can know for yourself of all these truth you ask Father in Heaven to give you a witness of them. He gave to me, directly to my spirit, so I know they are true, I don't have to rely on interpretations.

Be well,

mamre

 

[smaller]

Hi smaller,

This is not a formula, I just made a list for better visualization.


The fact remains that before the Fall (eating of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil) there was no corruption, unless Adam ate of the fruit, Gen 2:17.

That is only true if we DON'T BELIEVE Jesus' statements here, and IF we do believe JESUS, then your position is NOT TRUE.

Show WHY these teachings of JESUS would not BE TRUE for ADAM:

Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Matthew 13:19
When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

Luke 8:12
Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

1. Non-corruptible means that his body could not die. Since 1Cor.15:56. says that "The sting of death is sin;" it stands to reason that Adam (and Eve) couldn't possibly have sin, before the fall.

Again SHOW WHY Adam was NOT sown in the manner of NATURAL, WEAKNESS, CORRUPTION and DISHONOUR.

Obviously ADAM was for a FACT 'subject to' ALL of the ABOVE. Any other guesses do NOT assert themselves over THE FACTS.

2. Therefore it makes no sense to say that something was sown in corruption in Adam, since his body was not corruptible.

He was CORRUPTIBLE because he was CORRUPTED. He was WEAK because he did NOT prevail. He was NATURAL as NO DUST BODY is said to be ETERNAL. He was DISHONOURED because he was DISHONOURED.

All of those were A FACT TO ADAM just as same are FACTS to ALL his subsequent NATURAL, WEAK, CORRUPT and DISHONOURABLE progeny.

Were Adam NOT subject to ANY of those FACTUAL WORKINGS then Adam MAY have still been here, but THAT is only a WILD GUESS on your part that flies in the face of what actually transpired.

There is no reason NOT to believe what Jesus taught about the entry of SATAN where THE WORD is sown was NOT TRUE for Adam, or anyone else except God Himself.

3. He was physically perfect, otherwise he would never be allowed to be in the presence of God. And talk to God face to face.

God was face to face with SINNERS in the form of Jesus Christ.

NEXT!

4. Moreover, the very fact that he was IN THE PRESENCE OF GOD and interacted freely with God, FACE TO FACE, means he had NO SIN or evil in himself because sin or evil don't abide in the presence of God.

There is NO NOTION that God can NOT face SINNERS as He obviously DID.

5. If sin or evil could abide in the presence of God, then there would be no reason to preach that sinners will go the lake of fire and brimstone. (So you are going against the very doctrine you believe.)

The ONLY way you can make that statement is TO DIVIDE Jesus Christ from God, which will put you on the ground of instant HERESY.

7. The term "The Fall" means that Adam was in a "high place." In other words, he was was with God, had no sin.

Speculation. There is no reason that Jesus' teachings in this matter were NOT applicable to Adam, nor is there reason to believe that Paul's teachings about the sowing of MANKIND was not applicable to Adam.

Adam was SUBJECT TO all of those workings because that IS what 'factually' happened to Adam.

8. That is why Jesus is the Redeemer (Gospel of Redemption). Redemption from the Fall; not before the Fall as you want us to believe.

See previous. Adam was NOT exempt from the temptations of SATAN. Those temptations begin IN MIND/HEART where the Word is sown and Adam was assuredly subject to that working. The LAW of 'do not EAT' came to the LAWLESSNESS that was IN ADAM at the point of delivery or there would be NO USE for the DELIVERY of that LAW.

The fact is LAWLESSNESS was already IN him. Paul taught that THE LAW is for THE LAWLESS. 'Do not eat' was, yes, A LAW.

9. Furthermore, be it noted that Adam never yielded to Lucifer's temptations. Eve is the one that said that the 'serpent' beguiled her. Gen.3:13

Eve was still WITHIN Adam when the command came to ADAM. God called them BOTH Adam. (Genesis 5:2)

10. Adam decided, on his own, to take the fruit after Eve (not Lucifer) convinced him. Gen.3:12

ADAM'S WEAKER INNER MAN did succomb to TEMPTATION while SHE was still WITHIN Adam and CALLED Adam.

But the bottom line is:

Adam (and Eve) had first to Fall so the Gospel could be of any use to them and their posterity. WHEN he fell, then he was subject evil.

INdeed Adam WAS made 'subject to' temptation to say the least. This shows that he was NOT perfect in that DUST habitation or he would not have been A SUBJECT of that working.

Then the seed of the Gospel of Redemption needed to be sown in him, because now his body was truly in corruption. Before then, Adam and Eve were in a "higher place," with God.

There is no reason for me NOT to see Jesus' Words as applicable to Adam or to NOT apply Paul's statements to Adam. God FULLY INTENDED there to be a FIRST or NATURAL ADAM just as God desired there to be A LAST ADAM, not 'subject' to ANY of those workings, which same is EXEMPLIFIED in the Ressurected GOD in JESUS CHRIST as THE FIRST FRUIT example.

Again, the scriptures say plenty that sin cannot abide in the presence of God. That is why there is a lake of fire and brimstone prepared for those that sin. Adam was in God's presence, THEREFORE he was not a sinner.

And you have a REAL issue when you say GOD can NOT face sinners when you MEET GOD IN JESUS CHRIST who did surely FACE SINNERS.

Man has freedom, given by God, to choose what master he wants to serve. Because of that freedom to choose, Lucifer has NO POWER OVER MAN, UNLESS MAN YIELD TO HIS ENTICINGS.

Being 'subject to' is FAR FROM FREE.

God is in control and He doesn't let Lucifer do anything that is not useful for GOD'S purposes. 1 Cor. 10:13 says: "There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able;" - God is in control no Satan.

Never said otherwise. That has nothing to do with Adam's control or ours of that same working. The fact is MANKIND all is SUBJECT TO that working of SATAN and it started with the FIRST SUBJECT, Adam.

Paul taught that God Himself BOUND ALL MANKIND to DISOBEDIENCE.

Adam was NO exception as he OBVIOUSLY disobeyed. You just can't connect that disobedience to the CAUSE of Satan and instead ONLY BLAME Gods son, Adam. I have no uses for such BLINDNESS.

You can know for yourself of all these truth you ask Father in Heaven to give you a witness of them. He gave to me, directly to my spirit, so I know they are true, I don't have to rely on interpretations.

You rely on mere assertions of freedom apart from the REALITY that happened to ADAM. And you RELY on the same PHONY FREEDOM that YOU personally have DEFEATED SATAN and therefore YOU earned a PLACE for yourself.

I say such views are NON-sense. What was GAINED for YOU was NOT of yourself or YOUR OWN PRODUCE.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[mamre]

That is only true if we DON'T BELIEVE Jesus' statements here, and IF we do believe JESUS, then your position is NOT TRUE.

Show WHY these teachings of JESUS would not BE TRUE for ADAM:

....

Again SHOW WHY Adam was NOT sown in the manner of NATURAL, WEAKNESS, CORRUPTION and DISHONOUR.

First and foremost, I agree perfectly with the words of Jesus that Satan snatches the word of the Gospel sown in the hearts of men. There is no disagreement there. I have never denied that.

Neither I disagree that the those that want to have eternal life are sown in corruption as Paul says. No brainer there, read further to see why.


I will start with the term Corruption, because I believe you understand it differently in this context.

The English dictionary defines corruption as:

putrefactive decay; rottenness

Adam was created with A BODY that DID NOT DECAY, or ROTTEN like our bodies do today.

To understand that we need to just consider our own bodies. From the moment we are born, our bodies immediately start to decay. We start to become old by the second until, years later, the body can no longer function. Our spirit that gives life to the physical body, then leaves it and our PHYSICAL BODIES are left to further DETERIORATE and 'DISSOLVE' into the dirt.

THAT's what I mean by corruption in connection with Adam. When he was created, up until he ate of the fruit, his body would not get old or decay. It was not physically corruptible.

If Adam had never eaten of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil his body would never get old, or decay. There would never be a "Fall of Adam."

HE WOULD HAVE LIVED FOREVER. (Which doesn't mean he would have eternal life, though.)

That is the corruption (physical) I am talking about. And I am talking about Adams BODY specifically.

Please notice I am not making this up. It is in Genesis 2:17.

To be yet more specific: You will notice that Adam didn't really die immediately after he ate of the fruit. God still talked to him and Eve, cast them out of the Garden, etc. He didn't really die at that moment. Did he?

In other words:

The bodies of Adam and Eve that were incorruptible became corruptible (physically speaking). The bodies that couldn't decay before the "fall", now would decay and become old. Adam lived around 900 years and died.

(A parenthesis here helps to understand the trickery of Satan. He said: "You shall not surely die." And in fact physically Adam and Eve didn't die immediately, did they? But their bodies started to die.)


So, after the "Fall." Adam and Eve began a life in a (physically) corruptible world. A world where everything decays and eventually dies. But before that, physical corruption didn't exist. Did it?


So, when Paul says in 1 Cor 15:42 "So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:". He means that because of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ:

Corruption: or decay, rottenness, become old and die,

shall be replaced with:

Incorruption: a body that doesn't decay, doesn't rotten, doesn't become old, and that physically doesn't die.

Adam had that type of a body that didn't decay, didn't rotten, didn't become old, and that didn't physically die before he ate of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil.

So, the words of Jesus were NEVER sown in Incorruption, because the body of Adam was not 'physically corruptible.'
Before he ate of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, Adam DID NOT NEED to resurrect (turn into incorruptible again) because his body was not in physical corruption, that is, it would not die.

About 'sowing' things, to use your term:

YES, God gave Adam and Eve two basic commandments:

1. "...and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth" Gen. 1:28

and

2. "...of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it:" Gen. 2:17

BUT, those were not specifically the words of the Gospel at that point, as Jesus preached. Those were a couple of specific commandments.

- EVERY teaching of Jesus applies to ALL mankind, STARTING with Adam.


CORRUPTION, DISHONOR, NATURAL MAN, WEAKNESS are all characteristics belonging to the "corruptible" world that "fell" together with Adam when he ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Before the fall, there was not corruption physical or otherwise, as the scriptures clearly demonstrate.

As far as Satan 'entering' the hearts, as you seem to put it:

YES, that is true Adam and Eve were susceptible to the enticings and cunning of Lucifer. And you can even say that, figuratively (not literally), Lucifer entered Eve as in her giving place in her heart to his words and not going to God.

Trying to frustrate the purposes of God, Lucifer TEMPTED Eve with subtilty. He even using another creature in the Garden Gen. 1:3. Through convincing another creature, a "beast of the field," he spoke to Eve. Thus, he beguiled Eve as in 1Cor 11:3. But, only by subtil means, not entering physically or literally in her mind, but talking to her, convincing her, beguiling her.

Figuratively, I agree that Satan, enters mans heart. But we all have the power to resist his enticings. There is no temptation larger than what we can resist.


Be well
mamre

 

[savedbygrace57]

The Life given to Adam was Flesh and Blood but !

The scripture is clear that Adam in the beginning though created very good, he was still flesh and blood. Tes even in his innocent state, before transgression, he was flesh and blood.

Its said in heb 2:

14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same;

This was first and foremost in Adam, when the Children of God were first made in their natural lives in their Head Adam.

But again, even if Adam had not sinned, would he had been qualified to enter into Gods eternal kingdom ?

Lets look at 1 cor 15:

50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

So the Kingdom that God prepared for His Sheep before the foundation, Adam in His flesh and blood, very good state could not be able to enter in :

Matt 25:

34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

This Kingdom is that Eternal life promised before the world began !

Matt 18:8

Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life [The kingdom] halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

So a sinless Adam, of flesh and blood, could not had entered into Gods everlasting Kingdom !

This one 2 pet 1:11

For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

 

[smaller]

Satan snatches the word of the Gospel sown in the hearts of men. There is no disagreement there. I have never denied that.

Jesus didn't say GOSPEL Word, He said WORD, Gods Words, not just Gospel Word.

Neither I disagree that the those that want to have eternal life are sown in corruption as Paul says. No brainer there, read further to see why.

The 'super-presumption' that many freewillers put into play in these matters is in order for them to have WITHIN THEMSELVES a basis of earning their salvation via GOOD CHOICES. And also that God then has a reward DUE to them for their generation of LOVE, which God is supposedly 'in NEED' of.

None of these deployments are factual, reasoned, logical or neccessary.

I will start with the term Corruption, because I believe you understand it differently in this context. Adam was created with A BODY that DID NOT DECAY, or ROTTEN like our bodies do today.

Speculation on your part. Jesus had NO SIN, yet we know for A FACT that His Body AGED to adulthood. There is no presentation in text that says the DUST BODY of ADAM was eternally equipped.

I mean by corruption in connection with Adam. When he was created, up until he ate of the fruit, his body would not get old or decay. It was not physically corruptible.

Your position is unsubstantiated untenable guesswork. Jesus' Body did in fact AGE even with NO SIN involved.

If Adam had never eaten of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil his body would never get old, or decay. There would never be a "Fall of Adam."

Not possible. Adam was as we noted above 'subject to' those very factual conditions. As such the supposed FALL was in actuality not only INEVITABLE, but PLANNED and DIRECTED by God. God certainly KNEW that where HIS WORDS were sown, that Satan enters and in fact MADE that entity precisely for THAT PURPOSE and MADE ADAM'S BODY AND MIND susceptible to that ENTRY.

HE WOULD HAVE LIVED FOREVER. (Which doesn't mean he would have eternal life, though.)

I'm not even going to get into that bizarre and illogical nonsense.

Please notice I am not making this up. It is in Genesis 2:17.

Immediately AFTER point 1 SATAN entered Adam as Jesus TAUGHT. By Gen. 2:17 the userper of Adam was already IN Adam because THE LAW is for THE LAWLESS and were Adam had NO LAWLESSNESS within himself which is OF THE LAWLESS ONE, there would have been NO USE for that LAW.

Sin 'entered' Adam showing it to NOT BE ADAM, but a power or working that ENTERED into him. Not hard to connect that to SATAN's entry where the Word is sown, and ALL SIN being in fact CONNECTED TO THE DEVIL. (1 John 3:8)

To be yet more specific: You will notice that Adam didn't really die immediately after he ate of the fruit. God still talked to him and Eve, cast them out of the Garden, etc. He didn't really die at that moment. Did he?

I would say various forms of spiritual DEATH in degrees of THOUGHT, WORD AND DEED were 'evident' in Adam prior to his flesh passing. So what? We know from Paul that the BODY IS DEAD BECAUSE OF SIN. You say the EATING was the sin, I say the mere THOUGHT was SIN which made the BODY DEAD at the point the WORD was sown therein and Satan's IMMEDIATE entry as Jesus teaches.

Walking DEAD MEN cover the face of our planet.

In other words: The bodies of Adam and Eve that were incorruptible became corruptible (physically speaking). The bodies that couldn't decay before the "fall", now would decay and become old. Adam lived around 900 years and died.

Your assumption is not only DISPROVEN with the Body of Jesus, but a non-essential piece of nonsense as what you THINK might have transpired is NOT prove-able. Freewillers do like to MAKE STUFF UP though don't they? Imagination can be either a gift or A TRAP of ARROGANT PRIDE.

(A parenthesis here helps to understand the trickery of Satan. He said: "You shall not surely die." And in fact physically Adam and Eve didn't die immediately, did they? But their bodies started to die.)

God demonstrates His Mercy everyday in allowing DEAD SIN BODIES to LIVE. The timing of actuality is irrelevant.

The BODY IS DEAD because of SIN. (Romans 8:10)

So, after the "Fall." Adam and Eve began a life in a (physically) corruptible world. A world where everything decays and eventually dies. But before that, physical corruption didn't exist. Did it?

Absolutely it existed. The serpent, the conveyor and carrier of SIN via THEFT entered Adam IMMEDIATELY where GODS WORDS were sown. That SIN transpired in THOUGHT, WORD and eventually DEED. This is the reality of Adam and the workings of SATAN within him.

Corruption COMMENCED IMMEDIATELY after the Word was sown and SATAN was 'compelled' into ACTIONs within Adam. Any other angle is as prior stated, irrelevant and unprove-able guesswork on your part.

So, when Paul says in 1 Cor 15:42 "So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:". He means that because of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ:

Jesus' sacrifice was planned BEFORE the foundation of the WORLD. (1 Pet. 1:19-21) God did not come up with HIS PLAN as an after thought in reaction to 'freewill' agency screwing it up. Freewill could have NEVER GAINED eternal life anyway. That is GRANTED as A GIFT and only by THE CONVEYOR of same.

So, the words of Jesus were NEVER sown in Incorruption, because the body of Adam was not 'physically corruptible.'

Adam was assuredly subjected to the entrance of the Tempter IMMEDIATELY after the Word was sown. As such he was CORRUPTIBLE and corrupted AT THE POINT OF ENTRY.

About 'sowing' things, to use your term:
YES, God gave Adam and Eve two basic commandments:
1. "...and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth" Gen. 1:28
2. "...of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it:" Gen. 2:17
BUT, those were not specifically the words of the Gospel at that point, as Jesus preached. Those were a couple of specific commandments.

Dividing Gods Words stated above from Gospel Words are not possible. Jesus advised Satan that MAN SHALL LIVE by EVERY WORD of God. Satan in man has a great tendency to twist and overlook that FACT. Even you have tried to DIVIDE Gods Own Words above as INAPPLICABLE for use of the entry of Satan because they are not GOSPEL Words, but Jesus didn't say that. He said where THE WORD is sown, SATAN immediately enters. ALL SIN is connected to the DEVIL. There is no way to EXTRACT the DEVIL from the equations of SIN in MAN.

The devil/Satan is also the LAWLESS ONE. Were Adam NOT LAWLESS by the entrance of SATAN there would be no USE for hammering Adam with the LAW. We know that the LAW also induces the PRESENCE OF INDWELLING SIN to make SIN THOUGHTS as elaborated on by Paul in Romans 7, that working in Paul which he described as NOT him, but of the presence of indwelling sin.

Adam therefore HAD the presence of indwelling sin ENTER him immediately and that was of SATAN, the LAWLESS ONE.

Eve demonstrated her own LACK of understanding the COMMAND when she accounted THAT LAW to the serpent by adding they may NOT TOUCH the infamous TREE, but God didn't say that either. She had already SINNED by ADDING to the command. The fact is that SATAN had already STOLEN her WORD understanding and this also shows SATAN'S ENTRY into HER while she was still IN ADAM and called ADAM.

CORRUPTION, DISHONOR, NATURAL MAN, WEAKNESS are all characteristics belonging to the "corruptible" world that "fell" together with Adam when he ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

What you demonstrate is part of the problem of finding TRUE understanding. You judge SIN by the EXTERIOR ACTIONS, in this case EATING. Jesus advised us that the THOUGHT of SIN is just as much the thought and that IS WHERE SIN BEGINS, as A THOUGHT. The 'deed' is simply the final act working it's way out where FLESH MEN can 'view it.' The reality is however that SIN is a progressive working from THOUGHT to WORD to DEED, the first two of which for Adam and Eve transpired BEFORE the actual DEED, but actions of sin nevertheless.

Before the fall, there was not corruption physical or otherwise, as the scriptures clearly demonstrate.

Scripture demonstrates NOTHING of that sort whatsoever. Adam was obviously made 'subject to' the entrance of THE TEMPTER, Satan from the very beginning. There is no reason NOT to apply the teachings of Jesus to the matters of Adam and Eve and Satan's ENTRY.

As far as Satan 'entering' the hearts, as you seem to put it:
YES, that is true Adam and Eve were susceptible to the enticings and cunning of Lucifer. And you can even say that, figuratively (not literally), Lucifer entered Eve as in her giving place in her heart to his words and not going to God.

Thank you for finally showing up with A FACT.

At that MOMENT of FACT we should not rightfully be viewing Adam or Eve as ALONE in these matters as SATAN was surely involved WITHIN THEM BOTH, NOR should we extract GOD from being also intimately INVOLVED.

Adam was NOT free in mind and WAS made 'subject to' many workings, the least of which was his binding to DISOBEDIENCE...as God BOUND all men to that working. (Romans 11:32)

What you don't seem able to see is that the DISOBEDIENCE is a CAUSE by a WILL THAT IS NOT JUST MAN'S.'

s

 

[LostSoul]

Seeing as Satan had been cast out of Heaven and sought to decieve and turn away those God loved most....I think that sooner or later Lucifer would have succeeded, if not with Adam, then another....sadly. We all are born into sin. Adam was perfectly made and wanted for nothing yet he chose sin. I can hardly imagine what would have happened if things were different. Then all happens and has happened the way it has for a reason.

 

[savedbygrace57]

burr:

Adam was perfectly made

You have no scriptural support this statement. If it was true Adam could not have sinned as Jesus did not !

 

[mamre]

What you don't seem able to see is that the DISOBEDIENCE is a CAUSE by a WILL THAT IS NOT JUST MAN'S.'

My friend.

You have formulated an elaborate doctrine, and seem very eloquent in defending it. However, I have never seen you bearing witness of it. I have not seen you writing: 'I have no shadow of a doubt that what I have written is the truth.' Everything you say is based on your own and others beliefs.

It is clear that the truth stands for itself and really doesn't need any interpretation or defense. The truth come from the source of all truths, which is our Father in Heaven. No matter the amount of interpretation or beliefs, if one doesn't have a witness directly from God, at the end of day, it will not amount to much. And, to know the truth, all we need to do is ask Father in all sincerity and real intent of heart in name of Christ. And the Father will answer. There is no need to rely on anyone's intellect, even our own.

Doesn't Proverbs 3:5 instruct us to "...lean not unto thine own understanding."

I know that God is literally my loving Father. And because I have tasted of His love and kindness in my life, a have not a shadow of a doubt that Satan cannot have any power over me or any man unless we allow him to. Mine is not just a belief, it is an experience that I cannot deny.

The message you pass seems to be that man cannot do, basically, anything of his own. It is a doctrine of little hope, where Satan reigns almost supreme, where even God has no control over him.

Your message is one where God creates evil. Which can't possibly be true. A perfect being has no evil nor would create evil. Evil is imperfection. For us to know the truth of that, all we need to do is look at Jesus, who is also God. In His earth life He have not done one act of evil. He, Himself said that He only does what He has seen His Father do. Therefore, it is clear that His Father did not do any evil, because if the Father would have done evil as you say, Jesus would also do. But we didn't see Jesus doing any evil. "He went about doing good" only.

The most beautiful message that comes from our Savior is: "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." Matt 5:48 That's simply great, we can be perfect, there is no doom.

That message gives total assurance that, in spite of the enemy, and in spite of my own shortcomings, if I obey, and keep the commandments, because of the atonement of Christ I can be perfect like Father in Heaven is. That, is a message of hope.

And since no "...height, nor depth, nor any other creature (including Lucifer), shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Rom 8:39, I KNOW that Satan cannot have any power over me or any man if we don't let him. In fact we have way more power than He does if we keep the commandments. (The disciples of Jesus had power to cast devils.) And that is true just because we are sons and daughters of the Most High, if with our hearts we follow his path, we have power to bind Satan.

We all need to know that because of the Atonement of Christ from before the foundation of the world, we all can "work out our own salvation... " Phil 2:12 and become perfect like the Father by repenting and keeping the commandments. The atonement of Christ guarantees that work.

Be Well,

mamre

 

[mamre]

Not possible. Adam was as we noted above 'subject to' those very

factual conditions. As such the supposed FALL was in actuality not only

INEVITABLE, but PLANNED and DIRECTED by God. God certainly KNEW that where

HIS WORDS were sown, that Satan enters and in fact MADE that entity

precisely for THAT PURPOSE and MADE ADAM'S BODY AND MIND susceptible to that

ENTRY.

Lets consider your assertion closer.

God certainly... MADE that entity... for that purpose

You are saying then that God made Satan for the purpose of tempting

men. In essence you are saying that God makes evil entities to do evil to

others of His creations. (A mythological Greek god comes to mind.)

Consider this:
1. Satan's original name is Lucifer. Lucifer means 'Son of the morning,' or

'Son of light.'

2. Satan means 'One that rebels.'

Both points above clearly indicate that Lucifer was not created evil, but

that he became evil at one point in the eternities before this world

was created.

Also knowing that Lucifer was not created evil as per the above premise that

God created evil is not correct.

A Son of the Morning that becomes a Rebellious, evil spirit, shows

undoubtedly that that spirit was not created evil, but became evil. And,

therefore, God never created evil as you seem to indicate.

"How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!" Isaiah

14:12

The other implication of the above is that if Lucifer was not always

rebellious as he became, then, he had the FREEDOM to choose. Therefore, all
the spirits that God created before this earth were free to choose.

The ones that are not free are those that decided to follow Lucifer and didn't keep their first state.
"And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day." Jude 1:6

Be well,
mamre

 

[smaller]

Lets consider your assertion closer.
You are saying then that God made Satan for the purpose of tempting
men. In essence you are saying that God makes evil entities to do evil to
others of His creations. (A mythological Greek god comes to mind.)

There's no use in attaching sensationalism and non-relevant connection.

We know God made 'all things' including Satan, and what Satan was from the beginning from Jesus' Words:

John 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Your secondary conclusion is also false, that God made Satan to tempt men. God made Satan the way Satan is and Satan is assuredly sprung to actions where Gods Words are sown.

At this point of fact we do have TWO SEPARATE entities operating IN man. That would be the man and the DEVIL(s.) Additionally we can not 'rule God' out of the equations of operating 'in man.' Now the count goes to THREE.

The subject line of this thread was 'what if Adam had not sinned.' I point out that it was not JUST ADAM who was involved in these matters and that Satan has no choice but to do what Satan does, ENTER MAN and SIN therein.

Consider this:
1. Satan's original name is Lucifer. Lucifer means 'Son of the morning,' or 'Son of light.'
2. Satan means 'One that rebels.'

Both points above clearly indicate that Lucifer was not created evil, but
that he became evil at one point in the eternities before this world

Your conclusion does not logically connect. Son of light speaks nothing of true or false light, and we know there are both. Satan's light is a masquerade, A LIE. There is NO TRUTH in Satan according to Jesus regardless of his name.

Nor is there reason to say that the rebellion was not from the beginning either. That is the very essence of his name.

There is no teaching in the text that Satan was 'once upon a time a holy angel' turned bad because of bad decisions.

Also knowing that Lucifer was not created evil as per the above premise

The premise is often used, but patently untrue.

that
God created evil is not correct.

Let's not be pollyannaish about Gods creation and use of EVIL, particularly of the RETRIBUTIVE form which is plastered quite securely throughout the O.T.

A Son of the Morning that becomes a Rebellious, evil spirit, shows

undoubtedly that that spirit was not created evil, but became evil.

You simply have to show ONE SCRIPTURE that says Satan was once an holy angel. Here's a hint: There is no such presentation.

A perfect DEVIL is still a DEVIL in any case of perfection.

And,
therefore, God never created evil as you seem to indicate.

That conversation would probably warrant another thread, but yes, God did create and use evil repeatedly throughout the O.T. by His Own Statements, such as Isaiah 45:7, directed the use of lies and liars and even caused adultery to come into the house of David.

Divine Retributive EVIL is just a fact mamre.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[smaller]

My friend.
You have formulated an elaborate doctrine, and seem very eloquent in defending it.

The stating of various scriptural facts and conclusions is not a doctrinal discussion, but theological observations.

However, I have never seen you bearing witness of it.

No idea what yer talkin' about there. I could have sworn we were attempting a factual exchange of relevant scriptural observations and factual data.

I have not seen you writing: 'I have no shadow of a doubt that what I have written is the truth.' Everything you say is based on your own and others beliefs.

I can read and make solid conclusions based on the facts. Your point is what?

It is clear that the truth stands for itself and really doesn't need any interpretation or defense.

You are certainly welcome to 'assert' anything you please. Assertions really don't mean much of anything. Many assert 'freewill' but can't seem to come to grips with the very REAL scriptural presentation that both God and Satan operate IN MAN. At that point of fact 'freewill' is a hollow assertion in the face of contradictory facts of OTHER OPERATIONAL WILLS in man that ARE NOT OF THE MAN.

The truth come from the source of all truths, which is our Father in Heaven. No matter the amount of interpretation or beliefs, if one doesn't have a witness directly from God, at the end of day, it will not amount to much. And, to know the truth, all we need to do is ask Father in all sincerity and real intent of heart in name of Christ. And the Father will answer. There is no need to rely on anyone's intellect, even our own.

You're right. I do not rely on hollow assertions and prefer to apply scriptural facts and components to theological studies, discussions and conclusions.

I know that God is literally my loving Father. And because I have tasted of His love and kindness in my life, a have not a shadow of a doubt that Satan cannot have any power over me or any man unless we allow him to. Mine is not just a belief, it is an experience that I cannot deny.

And I may see likewise and bring an obvious LINE of DEMARCATION to these matters and say that 'your loving Father' has about ZERO interest in LOVING DEVILS or the actions of same IN any man. Being a believer is NOT a license to do EVIL and be OFF THE HOOK for same.

The message you pass seems to be that man cannot do, basically, anything of his own.

I have never asserted such. I do say that it is PROVABLE beyond any doubt that the DEVIL is intimately involved WITH SIN in MAN and this is proven throughout the text, and therefore MAN is not logically ALONE in these matters. ANY judgments that are VOID OF FACTUAL conclusions are logically false.

It is a doctrine of little hope, where Satan reigns almost supreme, where even God has no control over him.

Ridiculous conclusions really aren't doing much good mamre. I know that perhaps a little chink in your desire to BLAME AND ACCUSE mankind alone on the basis of freewill HAS BEEN DAMAGED in our conversations, and RIGHTFULLY SO. The entire 'freewill' premise is seriously FLAWED because of the factual missing components that can not be logically ruled out or away. At that point of understanding a REFORMULATION of MIND is surely in order. But men of many spins have relied on that shaky premise and will continue to remain there regardless of contradictory facts that make the premise FALSE. In short they SERVE THEIR ASSERTIONS over scriptural FACTS.

Most freewill adherents have NO IDEAS whatsoever of 'how' Satan fits into their scheme because they have RULED out that working fact from the gitgo.

Your message is one where God creates evil.

That is not 'MY' message, but Word from Gods Own Lips and HIS OWN ACTIONS:

Isaiah 45:
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

You can scramble for watered down modern conversions of these FACTS and IGNORE the factual WORKINGS of God in using RETRIBUTIVE EVIL, but these are simple and scriptural FACTS that are not 'mine.' Last time I checked the KJV was fairly reliable in it's verbiage.

Which can't possibly be true.

As stated prior you are welcome to serve your own assertions over these facts. That does not matter to me. It's your issue to deal with. I am not your God. Your heart is not my heart.

A perfect being has no evil nor would create evil. Evil is imperfection.

Here is a clue for you. Gods creation and uses of EVIL do not make HIM EVIL. IF God Is GREATER than EVIL (He IS) and is ABLE to make, use and HAVE GOOD come about from such uses, SO BE IT and THANK GOD for it.

God made ALL OF CREATION as 'less Perfect' than HIMSELF or IMPERFECT by comparisons. God can DO THIS and not be IMPERFECT. The instant you stretch GOD to be 'equal' to His creation, you are on the ground of POLY-THEISM.

So yes, God not only CAN but does create, use and direct EVIL. And is NOT EVIL in doing so.

For us to know the truth of that, all we need to do is look at Jesus, who is also God. In His earth life He have not done one act of evil.

GOD HAS NOT CHANGED in Jesus Christ. Jesus Himself proclaimed that MUCH RETRUBUTIVE EVIL will fall upon the heads of the workers of iniquity and they will BE FINALIZED at some point of Gods Determinations. This working operation of GODS WORDS have not ceased from the earth.

He, Himself said that He only does what He has seen His Father do. Therefore, it is clear that His Father did not do any evil, because if the Father would have done evil as you say, Jesus would also do. But we didn't see Jesus doing any evil. "He went about doing good" only.

Jesus also RESISTED and OPPOSED devils in MAN on nearly every page of the N.T. Gospels, again OPENLY SHOWING that MAN is NOT ALONE in any matter of WORD engagements. You can blame MAN all you want for 'allowance' but NO MAN has stopped SINNING on the basis of 'freewill.' All have SIN and have SINNED. Were 'freewill' truthfully ABLE to free you from the FACTS of SIN and the connections to THE DEVIL, then you'd have NO NEED of a Saviour.

The most beautiful message that comes from our Savior is: "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." Matt 5:48 That's simply great, we can be perfect, there is no doom.

The ONLY WAY to be PERFECT AS GOD is to have GOD WITHIN. And even in this we can NOT say we 'have no sin' and BE IN TRUTH. That is a DIVINE DILEMA that God has placed us into. We can be IN TRUTH and God can BE IN AND WITH US regardless of the presence of indwelling sin, the actions thereof STILL being 'of the DEVIL.'

Paul is an open testimony to these facts.

That message gives total assurance that, in spite of the enemy, and in spite of my own shortcomings, if I obey, and keep the commandments, because of the atonement of Christ I can be perfect like Father in Heaven is. That, is a message of hope.

Any message that says YOU CAN BE GOD all by yourSELF and be then AS PERFECT AS GOD via 'good moral choices' without GOD HIMSELF BEING in our heart is not Christianity, but a perversion.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[mamre]

Here is a clue for you. Gods creation and uses of EVIL do not make HIM EVIL. IF God Is GREATER than EVIL (He IS) and is ABLE to make, use and HAVE GOOD come about from such uses, SO BE IT and THANK GOD for it.

Friend,

No offense to your beliefs, but it seems like you are making the doctrine as you go along.

God creates evil? Where in the Bible have you found this?

The scriptures say that God is love. How can an infinitely Loving Father create evil entities with the purpose of entering into his children to torment them and make them sin? What kind of a Father would that be?

That is the same as saying that sin ultimately originates with God.


With all respect, that is one confusing doctrine. Confusion is not from God.

Again not wanting to offend you but: Who would like to believe and worship a God that creates evil?


It is so simple. Lucifer was the Son of the Morning, he rebelled and became Satan. He became a selfish and evil spirit. That is what the scripture says.

To know the truth we need to go to the source of all truth, Father in Heaven, and ask Him with real intent. Because He is our loving Father He will show the truth to those that are humble like children. You don't need to rely on you intellect or on anyone's interpretation. Do that, I did, I can witness to you that it is true.

Be Well,
mamre

 

[smaller]

Friend,

No offense to your beliefs, but it seems like you are making the doctrine as you go along.

Amply cited scripture for understandings. Your point is what?

God creates evil? Where in the Bible have you found this?

Did you read Isaiah 45:7? Did you read how God directed and used LYING SPIRITS in 1 Kings 22 or in 2 Chronicles 18? Did you read how GOD gives DELUSIONS and FEARS in Isaiah 66:4? Did you read how God promised to bring adultery to the wives of David in 2 Samuel 12?

Did you even bother to note that God used and practiced RETRIBUTIVE EVIL throughout the Old Testament both to Israel and to enemy nations?

The scriptures say that God is love.

I can assure myself that God does not love the DEVILS or deal kindly with them.

How can an infinitely Loving Father create evil entities with the purpose of entering into his children to torment them and make them sin? What kind of a Father would that be?

God is NOT The Father of DEVILS. They were 'created' with the specific intent to ultimately destroy them.

That is the same as saying that sin ultimately originates with God.

One cannot remove God from the intimacies of His Creation. Sin exists and it does so WITHIN His Omnipresence. Your offer is that HE sits idly by and can do NOTHING about it. A tacit nod of approval to EVIL by God in any case of measures.

With all respect, that is one confusing doctrine. Confusion is not from God.

Actually it is confusing how you seem to have missed every point observed and inserted in place a non-existing fairy tale.

Again not wanting to offend you but: Who would like to believe and worship a God that creates evil?

I have no issues with scriptural facts. You? Your imposition requires BLINDERS to be worn when reading scriptures. There is no gain in denial of facts. Some of you 'freewillers' would do yourselves well to read the Old Testament sometime.

It is so simple. Lucifer was the Son of the Morning, he rebelled and became Satan. He became a selfish and evil spirit. That is what the scripture says.

There is no WAY to remove the 'abilities of the created' from their CREATOR who made them obviously at LACK in abilities.

And did you MISS again the FACT that NO SCRIPTURE presents Satan as 'an Holy Angel' who went bad from making 'bad moral choices.' Such a presentation is a christian FAIRY TALE, and a common one at that. It is sold by preachers to people who don't BOTHER TO READ the Bible for themselves and instead take 'some other guys' word for it.

To know the truth we need to go to the source of all truth, Father in Heaven, and ask Him with real intent. Because He is our loving Father He will show the truth to those that are humble like children. You don't need to rely on you intellect or on anyone's interpretation. Do that, I did, I can witness to you that it is true.

The only thing I'll witness to is a general lack of understanding some basic biblical teachings and facts in your presentations. No offense to you, but you seem to be more than a little shy on scriptural details and understandings and long on assertions apart from facts.

God did not request me to be brain dead and not read in order to accept a myriad of false and 'man made' setups that are sold to people who don't bother to investigate their WORD.

God has asked in the scriptures that we 'reason' WITH HIM and we do so by personally ENGAGING with Him in His Words and yes, you are right NOT by 'our own' sorely misled notions and fantasies.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[mamre]

Any message that says YOU CAN BE GOD all by yourSELF and be then AS PERFECT AS GOD via 'good moral choices' without GOD HIMSELF BEING in our heart is not Christianity, but a perversion.

Friend,

Interesting, I never said anything about 'being a god.'
However, can you see how simple it was for you to deduct that to be perfect like God, is the same as becoming a god.


Notice that Jesus Christ commands us to be perfect like our Father which is in heaven, period. Everything else you wrote are words of your own creation, not Jesus' words.

To fulfill a command, one needs to work on it. And that is only possible because of the atonement of Christ.


Paul says that we need to "work our salvation" Phil. 2:12... "Till we all come... unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:" Eph. 4:13

What do you think stature of the fulness of Christ is?

Be well,
mamre

 

[smaller]

Friend,

Interesting, I never said anything about 'being a god.'
However, can you see how simple it was for you to deduct that to be perfect like God, is the same as becoming a god.

Perfection has only One Claimant. Sorry. When God abides in the heart, THERE is Perfection Present 'not of the man's choices.'

Notice that Jesus Christ commands us to be perfect like our Father which is in heaven, period. Everything else you wrote are words of your own creation, not Jesus' words.

Spin it however you will. Man's will alone does NOT make Perfect. That is Polytheism.

To fulfill a command, one needs to work on it. And that is only possible because of the atonement of Christ.

Again, spin it how you will...You say man alone? That ain't christianity. Any believer understands that Christ abides within them. This removes the mans will from being 'alone.'

s

 

[mamre]

Perfection has only One Claimant. Sorry. When God abides in the heart, THERE is Perfection Present 'not of the man's choices.'
Spin it however you will. Man's will alone does NOT make Perfect. That is Polytheism.
Again, spin it how you will...You say man alone? That ain't christianity. Any believer understands that Christ abides within them. This removes the mans will from being 'alone.'

Friend,

I agree wholehearted with you smaller. Man alone does not make perfect. You are definitely correct there.

Think, smaller: WOULD CHRIST GIVE A COMMAND TO US TO BE PERFECT IF IT WAS NOT POSSIBLE?


You chose to ignore what I have written. I have NEVER said that man alone can achieve perfection. THAT is not found in the scriptures either.

You don't need even to read the Bible to see that man cannot be perfect on his own. Just look at your own human condition. Can you avoid death? No, you know how dependent on a Supreme being you are to just survive upon this earth.

When you say what you have said above you are stating the most obvious of statements.

As you can see there is no spin. And its OBVIOUS that we cannot even stay a few days without eating that we die. We depend on God for everything. You don't even need any doctrine to tell you that.


What I have written, though, is that BECAUSE CHRIST ATONED FOR OUR SINS, we can now work towards perfection. We need to accept that atonement and humbly submit to Christ, and repent.

See Job 19:26 "And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

WITHOUT the atonement of Christ man cannot do ANYTHING.

Christ has paid the price we cannot pay. IT IS PAID, ITS A GIFT. But, as with any gift we need to accept it first.
So, if man chooses to do so, he can repent, make covenants with God, and work towards perfection, as Paul indicates in Phillipians.

I REPEAT, in case you don't understand:

Christ paid the price man could not pay. He atoned for our sins. Because He did pay, if man accepts that gift and humble himself, and [b/]REPENT of his sins[/b], he can continue to work "Till we come... to a perfect man, the fulness of the stature of Christ" as Paul teaches. ONLY because of the ATONING SACRIFICE of JESUS CHRIST.

WITHOUT THE ATONEMENT, the command of Jesus to be perfect like God, cannot not be attainable.

So, when Jesus gives the commandment to man to be "perfect as our Father which is in Heaven," He does so because He KNOWS we can, as He Himself has made it possible through His sacrifice.

This means that if one doubts we cannot be perfect, that person is doubting Christ.


As you can see, He would never give us a commandment that we cannot fulfill. If Christ gives a commandment it is because it is possible to keep it. He made it possible.

Be Well,
mamre

 

[smaller]

Friend,

I agree wholehearted with you smaller. Man alone does not make perfect. You are definitely correct there.

You see then that the WILL of man is NOT alone as HE in us IS in fact PERFECT.

One may also see then with the entrance of Satan where THE WORD is sown, the SOURCE of our imperfections as well.

Think, smaller: WOULD CHRIST GIVE A COMMAND TO US TO BE PERFECT IF IT WAS NOT POSSIBLE?

I am not into FOLLY QUESTS and am content with God in Christ being IN ME Perfect. There is no other Perfection. We all have 'our share' in HIS Perfection. There is no other Perfection Source. You do not 'make yourSELF' that way.

You chose to ignore what I have written. I have NEVER said that man alone can achieve perfection. THAT is not found in the scriptures either.

Why then dangle that command as if it is something that YOU ALONE achieve? "OUR" Perfection is OF HIM. There is no other 'source.'

You don't need even to read the Bible to see that man cannot be perfect on his own. Just look at your own human condition. Can you avoid death? No, you know how dependent on a Supreme being you are to just survive upon this earth. When you say what you have said above you are stating the most obvious of statements.

Well, thanks for agreeing then!

As you can see there is no spin. And its OBVIOUS that we cannot even stay a few days without eating that we die. We depend on God for everything. You don't even need any doctrine to tell you that.

Well, thanks for agreeing then! I was hoping you weren't going down the POLYTHEISM corridor....

What I have written, though, is that BECAUSE CHRIST ATONED FOR OUR SINS, we can now work towards perfection. We need to accept that atonement and humbly submit to Christ, and repent.

I am not in the habit of DENYING the Work of God in Christ on the basis of individual validations. What happened happened, that WORK was very REAL and very EFFECTIVE all of HIS OWN SELF. My views of same will not CHANGE that matter ONE BIT.

I have issues with people who ERADICATE the entirety of God in Christ on the Cross or in HIS Resurrection to LIFE based on 'individual activations' of same as if ALL OF IS was NOTHING until somebody else came along to EFFECTUATE same.

Christ has paid the price we cannot pay. IT IS PAID, ITS A GIFT. But, as with any gift we need to accept it first.

Sorry, but Christ did His Work long before I came along to 'activate' same. I don't buy your story. Christ died for me while I was yet AN ENEMY. His GIFT was already ON THE TABLE and was NOT HID or HELD BACK by 'any man.'

So, if man chooses to do so, he can repent, make covenants with God, and work towards perfection, as Paul indicates in Phillipians.

hmmm? Make covenants? We both have already agreed that man is not alone with GOD in them, so there is no use extracting God away from these matters now is there?

I REPEAT, in case you don't understand:

Christ paid the price man could not pay. He atoned for our sins. Because He did pay, if man accepts that gift and humble himself, and [b/]REPENT of his sins[/b], he can continue to work "Till we come... to a perfect man, the fulness of the stature of Christ" as Paul teaches. ONLY because of the ATONING SACRIFICE of JESUS CHRIST.

You have my view on this. I do not eliminate the work of God in Christ on the basis of individual activation or NOT. The WORK was DONE and was TOTALLY FINE of HIMSELF. IF a man is BLINDED to same, so be it by GOD. God can make ANY MAN see anytime He wants them to see.

WITHOUT THE ATONEMENT, the command of Jesus to be perfect like God, cannot not be attainable.

Apart from GOD WITHIN any man such individual pursuits are POLYTHEISTIC FOLLIES.

So, when Jesus gives the commandment to man to be "perfect as our Father which is in Heaven," He does so because He KNOWS we can, as He Himself has made it possible through His sacrifice.

Not without HIM you can't. Sorry.

This means that if one doubts we cannot be perfect, that person is doubting Christ.

I will doubt totally doubt your abilities to MAKE YOURSELF PERFECT everytime. Sorry. That simply can not happen apart from GOD WITHIN. It's not an individual quest, but a cooperative SHARING of what HE ALREADY IS.

Quite frankly I'm not presently 'equipped' to take on the FULL PERFECTION of God in Christ. Maybe when that NEW BODY comes I'll feel differently? In the meantime I have the present factual realities of being sown in WEAKNESS, CORRUPTION and DISHONOUR that make taking on the ENTIRE PERFECTION OF GOD IN CHRIST not quite in my FULL grasp. There are those other pesky little details that I am left to truthfully explain that don't seem to be going away just yet. IF you want to make the claim that YOU HAVE THE FULL OF GOD IN CHRIST right here, right now, so be it. I am not that emboldened with the facts in hand.

As you can see, He would never give us a commandment that we cannot fulfill. If Christ gives a commandment it is because it is possible to keep it. He made it possible.

Well, you just let me know how that goes.

enjoy!

s

 

[mamre]

Quite frankly I'm not presently 'equipped' to take on the FULL PERFECTION of God in Christ.

smaller,

I was thinking about your answers, and your doctrine. I want to ask you:

You believe in a God that created man, and Satan to enter his body and make him sin so he could save him.

Is this correct?

Be well,
mamre