What if Adam had not sinned ?

[savedbygrace57]

That is not true. Even if Adam and Eve did not sin God's plan for mankind would still be the same.

Who said anything about Gods Purpose changing ? You must cannot read with much comprehension.

 

[Oats]

arch:



Thanks, thats why Flesh and blood cannot enter into Gods eternal Heavenly Kingdom, because it was corruptible. so if Adam would not have sinned, and remained Flesh and Blood, He was not qualified to Enter in, because Flesh and Blood is corruptible.

Only Incorruption can enter in the Kingdom, and one must first be born of that seed. 1 pet 1:23

Being born again, not of corruptible seed [As Adam], but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Adam in His best state, needed to be born again.

Even Satan was in God's Kingdom at some point

 

[mamre]

There is one very important thing to consider with this question:

First: What is sin?
Sin is doing something that is evil knowing it is evil, thus going against the will of the Lord.

Adam couldn't possibly have sinned by eating the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil since he didn't know the difference between good and evil. Notice he had NOT YET ate of the fruit that would give him that knowledge to be able to do things out of evil intent or, in other words sin.

Adam and Eve, before eating the fruit of knowledge of good and evil, were like children, innocent. So, they disobeyed the Lord by transgressing one of His commandments. Not by intently doing evil (sinning) as they didn't know if eating of the fruit was an evil or a good thing. The fruit was there, and the temptation was there, but they didn't know what evil or good was.

It is just like a little child that has not reached the age of accountability yet. His parents will tell him, don't play with seizures. However, he sees the seizures laying around and start playing and hurt himself. The child didn't deliberately rebelled against the parents, he simply transgressed an order given him out of love. That doesn't constitute rebellion on the part of the child because he was not accountable yet. He didn't know the difference between good and evil to disobey out of evil intent. He did what he did because he was curious and could not resist the temptation.

So, having being created innocent and pure like little children, Adam and Eve had never seen evil before, as God would never create something evil. They didn't know what good was either because they didn't know evil to compare. They had, however, the freedom of choosing to eat or not of the fruit.

So, eating of the fruit could have been an evil thing, or it could have been a good thing. They didn't know though.

As sin is doing something that is evil knowing it is evil, in the case of Adam and Eve before the fall it doesn't apply. They had no knowledge of the difference. Therefore their transgression was NOT a sin, but simply a transgression. An innocent act of disobedience. (Which had important consequences.)

So, your question What if Adam had not sinned? is better put this way: What if Adam had never transgressed or disobeyed?

Answer: Since Adam and Eve were like children, they could never had children of their own. Therefore, mankind would had never come to pass. We would not exist, physically!

Now, you judge: Eating of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil was an evil thing or a good thing?

Hope this helps,
mamre

 

[savedbygrace57]

Even Satan was in God's Kingdom at some point

Scripture that says that would be fine.

 

[savedbygrace57]

mamre:

Adam couldn't possibly have sinned by eating the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil since he didn't know the difference between good and evil.

Why God told him not to eat of it before he ate of it !

gen 2:

16And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Adam knew to Good, by not eating of the tree which was forbidden him to eat from.

And James 4:

17Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

 

[Bazz1040]

Who said anything about Gods Purpose changing ? You must cannot read with much comprehension.

Why such hostility?

 

[mamre]

mamre:



Why God told him not to eat of it before he ate of it !

savebygrace:

It is exactly like the analogy of the little child I gave previously. A parent tells a little child that he can play with all the toys in the house, but should not touch the knife that is in the kitchen. The parent says: "If you touch the knife in the kitchen you will certainly hurt yourself." (In other words, he was not prepared to use it yet.)

The knife is a useful instrument. Certainly the parent would not tell the child to not touch it forever, that would shelter him from growing and becoming grown person. Eventually the child will grow and learn how to use and find it useful. But while he is small, innocent and cannot handle it, he should not touch it.

Adam and Eve were created innocent like little children. The Lord told them that of all the fruits in the garden they could eat, but not of the tree of the fruit of KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL. That tree was special and had a purpose, to give them knowledge. Otherwise, why God would put a tree of KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL in the middle of the garden and tell Adam not to eat of it, knowing very well that at some point Adam would wonder about its purpose. It really doesn't make sense. The tree had a purpose, as did the tree of life.

Adam and Eve were intelligent beings created on the image and likeness of God, they grew in maturity and wondered about that tree and its knowledge. In due time they would want to use the tree. But Lucifer, that had been allowed to be in the garden and wanted to do everything to oppose the Father, tempted Adam and Eve to eat of the fruit saying they would be like God knowing good from evil. Satan did nothing more than precipitate an inevitable moment of discovery.

Notice that Adam and Eve were not punished so much for eating of the fruit. Eve had a curse because she listened to someone else other then God, Satan. Adam was cursed because he listened to his wife instead of God. They were punished because instead of going to the Father to understand the purpose of the tree they listened to someone else, as child normally do.

Adam didn't have the knowledge of good and evil before he ate the fruit, therefore he could not have sinned. He had no idea if eating of the fruit was a good or a bad thing in itself. So he was incapable of committing an act with evil intent, he DID NOT have that knowledge yet.

Have a good day,

mamre

 

[savedbygrace57]

Why such hostility?

Thats in your mind, I am not being hostile. Why judge me like that ?

 

[savedbygrace57]

savebygrace:

It is exactly like the analogy of the little child I gave previously. A parent tells a little child that he can play with all the toys in the house, but should not touch the knife that is in the kitchen. The parent says: "If you touch the knife in the kitchen you will certainly hurt yourself." (In other words, he was not prepared to use it yet.)

The knife is a useful instrument. Certainly the parent would not tell the child to not touch it forever, that would shelter him from growing and becoming grown person. Eventually the child will grow and learn how to use and find it useful. But while he is small, innocent and cannot handle it, he should not touch it.

Adam and Eve were created innocent like little children. The Lord told them that of all the fruits in the garden they could eat, but not of the tree of the fruit of KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL. That tree was special and had a purpose, to give them knowledge. Otherwise, why God would put a tree of KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL in the middle of the garden and tell Adam not to eat of it, knowing very well that at some point Adam would wonder about its purpose. It really doesn't make sense. The tree had a purpose, as did the tree of life.

Adam and Eve were intelligent beings created on the image and likeness of God, they grew in maturity and wondered about that tree and its knowledge. In due time they would want to use the tree. But Lucifer, that had been allowed to be in the garden and wanted to do everything to oppose the Father, tempted Adam and Eve to eat of the fruit saying they would be like God knowing good from evil. Satan did nothing more than precipitate an inevitable moment of discovery.

Notice that Adam and Eve were not punished so much for eating of the fruit. Eve had a curse because she listened to someone else other then God, Satan. Adam was cursed because he listened to his wife instead of God. They were punished because instead of going to the Father to understand the purpose of the tree they listened to someone else, as child normally do.

Adam didn't have the knowledge of good and evil before he ate the fruit, therefore he could not have sinned. He had no idea if eating of the fruit was a good or a bad thing in itself. So he was incapable of committing an act with evil intent, he DID NOT have that knowledge yet.

Have a good day,

mamre

I can see its very difficult for you to understand a simple premise such as James 4:

17Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

 

[Bazz1040]

Thats in your mind, I am not being hostile. Why judge me like that ?

You are suggesting that God's plan changed when Adam sinned. If you did not then why did you say this?

If Adam [Mankind] had remained unfallen, without transgression, then He nor men in him could have entered that Kingdom of Eternal Glory to which all believers in Christ were destined before the foundation

The fact is that Adam's creation was not complete when he was made. His physical creation was complete, but he still needed something else. He needed the Holy Spirit. He would have gotten the Spirit of God had he eaten of the tree of Life. So Adam would have entered that glory because that is the reason why Adam was made and created.

 

[savedbygrace57]

bazz:

You are suggesting that God's plan changed when Adam sinned

Thats in your mind, and is nothing less than a false accusation, which you have yet to show one post of mine that states that, or remotely suggest that.

 

[Bazz1040]

bazz:



Thats in your mind, and is nothing less than a false accusation, which you have yet to show one post of mine that states that, or remotely suggest that.

So you do believe that if Adam had not sinned they would have entered God's kingdom, just like us?

 

[savedbygrace57]

So you do believe that if Adam had not sinned they would have entered God's kingdom, just like us?

Read my posts in the thread and you will see what I believe !

 

[smaller]

There is one very important thing to consider with this question:

Sin is doing something that is evil knowing it is evil, thus going against the will of the Lord.

Adam couldn't possibly have sinned by eating the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil since he didn't know the difference between good and evil. Notice he had NOT YET ate of the fruit that would give him that knowledge to be able to do things out of evil intent or, in other words sin.

Adam was Gods son. (Luke 3:38)

Did God create his son, Adam, with EVIL intentions within him? The 'ability' to do evil? Did Adam come 'pre-equipped' to do EVIL?

Adam and Eve, before eating the fruit of knowledge of good and evil, were like children, innocent. So, they disobeyed the Lord by transgressing one of His commandments. Not by intently doing evil (sinning) as they didn't know if eating of the fruit was an evil or a good thing. The fruit was there, and the temptation was there, but they didn't know what evil or good was.

We may add that they didn't know what death was either. They didn't know what a PREDATOR was either. The EVIL predator was IN the Garden.

It is just like a little child that has not reached the age of accountability yet. His parents will tell him, don't play with seizures. However, he sees the seizures laying around and start playing and hurt himself. The child didn't deliberately rebelled against the parents, he simply transgressed an order given him out of love. That doesn't constitute rebellion on the part of the child because he was not accountable yet. He didn't know the difference between good and evil to disobey out of evil intent. He did what he did because he was curious and could not resist the temptation.

Ah, temptation. Now we are getting somewhere.

So, having being created innocent and pure like little children, Adam and Eve had never seen evil before, as God would never create something evil.

Say what? God can create anything and use same for His Purposes. Evil didn't create itself out of nothing. There are 'ingredients.'

They didn't know what good was either because they didn't know evil to compare. They had, however, the freedom of choosing to eat or not of the fruit.

That is an assumption. The dust of Adam came predisposed with many requirements that Adam had no choice over. Adam had to eat, to WORK to feed himself at least by harvesting/picking/tending/keeping. There were no choices in these matters for him. And Adam had 'feelings.' It was not good for him to be 'alone,' at least in Gods Eyes. Many say it was ALL only good, but in Gods Eyes we see in Genesis 2 that it was NOT GOOD for Adam to be alone. In this we see the LACK that existed in Adam that God saw and that was NOT GOOD.

So, eating of the fruit could have been an evil thing, or it could have been a good thing. They didn't know though.

At the very least there was both a conundrum and an intentional act on Gods part for NON-full disclosure in the first LAW or COMMAND from God.

The conundrum existed in the command, THOU MAY EAT FREELY....but...

What is free with a BUT attached? Obviously not THAT free.

The intentional non-disclosure was God's intentional non-warning of the PREDATOR, his potential actions 'within' them and 'how' that worked IN Adam and Eve. Many fail to see the DYNAMIC between the LAW, 'do not eat' and the reaction of the PREDATOR in relationship to that Law. Most think that the LAW applied only to Adam/Eve. Paul does an excellent job in describing how the presence of indwelling sin REACTS to Gods Laws in Romans 7. The 'reactions' of indwelling SIN are a reaction that Paul found himself quite UNABLE to cease from because of the DYNAMIC therein between LAW and the power of INDWELLING SIN to 'resist' same.

As sin is doing something that is evil knowing it is evil, in the case of Adam and Eve before the fall it doesn't apply. They had no knowledge of the difference. Therefore their transgression was NOT a sin, but simply a transgression. An innocent act of disobedience. (Which had important consequences.)

To say the event was strictly mancentric is false. There are many 'unseen' components.

Jesus provided some interesting insights into these matters in the Gospels wherein He stated that where THE WORD is sown, SATAN enters the heart to STEAL that Word. It is SATAN that inserts IGNORANCE via that THEFT and also induces TEMPTATION within the MIND.

The obvious point to view here is simply this: ADAM at the point of THEFT and TEMPTATION by the PREDATOR was 'no longer just Adam' in the events, but ADAM and THE PREDATOR, the PREDATOR being SPRUNG to action by THAT SAME LAW to Adam.

The entrance of the PREDATOR in these matters was just as Jesus described. Where the Word is sown then Satan IMMEDIATELY comes to steal. When then did the THIEF of WORD arrive in Adam? IMMEDIATELY after the BLESSINGS were sown by Gods Words upon Adam.

It is quite logical to view this matter in the light of Jesus' disclosures and the workings of SATAN. In fact if we are seeing THAT LAW correctly and we know that the LAW is against THE LAWLESS (according to Paul) when the LAW was given to ADAM it is entirely possible that the LAWLESS ONE had already been sprung to Actions IN Adam immediately after the blessings were bestowed upon Adam, and NOT later when he ate. Sin begins as THOUGHT, progresses to DEED and finalizes in ACTION. All sin nevertheless. The THOUGHT of SIN came with THE LAW, but the PREDATOR was probably already in place IN Adam just as Jesus taught about Satan coming IMMEDIATELY into the hearts where THE WORD is sown.

Of course Adam had absolutely NO idea that he was, read carefully, MADE SUBJECT to that working. Yes, Adam was made SUBJECTED to the LAWLESS ONE and had NO disclosures from God. Therefore ADAM's subjection was INTENTIONAL on Gods part in making him so subject.

We see this fact of MANS BINDING by GOD to DISOBEDIENCE demonstrated in Romans 11:32 with HIS DIVINE INTENTION for same:

Romans 11:32
For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

IF we take Paul's expositions on these matters we see much more in 1 Cor. 15, wherein that order of God is first the NATURAL and then the SPIRITUAL. Adam was made A NATURAL/dust man of the earth. I do not believe it was EVER Gods Intentions to LEAVE ADAM bound up in that DUST permanently, but was Adams NATURAL ORDER of creation by God.

In that depiction, Paul tells us what the NATURAL MAN is 'sown' into in this present life as follows:

Sown in WEAKNESS, CORRUPTION and DISHONOUR. This is the factual condition of EVERY NATURAL MAN until they are RAISED from their CLAY BODIES.

Paul elaborates that the INTENTIONS of God in planting man in WEAKNESS was for the INTENT that HIS POWER would reign IN THEM rather than THEMSELVES.

Why do we accept the false premise of FREE WILL for the TRUTH of the obvious WEAKNESSES we are planted in and the intents of GODS POWER therein?

"MY STRENGTH IS MADE PERFECT IN WEAKNESS" is a PRECEPT of GOD.

Those who BLAME and ACCUSE Adam and Eve only demonstrate the ignorance that comes with STOLEN WORD and the speakings of the ACCUSER in their mind.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[savedbygrace57]

Eternal Life was never promised through Adam !

Titus 1:2

In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

The Fact is, Eternal Life never rested upon the laruels of Adam, if whether or not he sinned or not. God's promise of Eternal life was given to and Through the Lord Jesus Christ ! When ? Before the world began, meaning before Adam came on the scene.

1 jn 2:25

And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.


1 jn 1:2

(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

1 jn 5:13

And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

This Promise and this record of having been given Eternal Life[ In His Son] is integrated with the Promise in titus 1:

Titus 1:2

In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

So Adam was not created for that purpose, but his creation was subordinate to that purpose of Eternal life in Christ !

 

[mamre]

Adam was Gods son. (Luke 3:38)

Did God create his son, Adam, with EVIL intentions within him? The 'ability' to do evil? Did Adam come 'pre-equipped' to do EVIL?


We may add that they didn't know what death was either. They didn't know what a PREDATOR was either. The EVIL predator was IN the Garden.


Ah, temptation. Now we are getting somewhere.


Say what? God can create anything and use same for His Purposes. Evil didn't create itself out of nothing. There are 'ingredients.'

smaller

smaller:

I have no idea what your are trying to say in your post, but:

One of the best and closest illustrations of freedom to choose is this:

In professional sports there is something called 'free agent.' Roughly, 'free agent' is an athlete that after a certain point in his career is free to choose whatever team he wants to play for. Prior to that point the athlete has no freedom to choose the team to play. The team he signed a contract with "owns" him, he must go wherever the league and his owners decide he should play. Someone is deciding for him in that regard. The athlete is FORCED to play where their owners want him to play. He has no choice, he is not a free agent in that regard. Granted, he is free to break the contract anytime, but it comes with a cost, he may never play anywhere again or will have do pay a hefty fine.


So,

God created man in His own image and in His own likeness. So by being like God Himself, man has the same capacity of agency as God has. That is, man, in the likeness of God, can decide on his own about which way he wants to go, what food to eat, whether to follow God or follow evil inside the parameters of this creation.

In a broad sense God owns us. We depend on Him for everything. But, unlike the athlete's 'owner,' He is merciful, and doesn't seek His on interest. He loves us and wants us to be like He is. So, His interest is our happiness, therefore He will not force us to "play" in any team. WE ARE FREE AGENTS FROM THE VERY START to choose Him freely.

That choice must be done freely, because if we are forced to choose Him, there is no value in it. God wants us, but He wants us to choose Him on our own, of our own volition. When we choose Him freely, of our own volition, then He knows we truly love Him. That is why we need freedom to choose.

If God would force us to love Him, He would not be a loving and merciful God. It would be like a capricious mythological Greek god.


To take the prior analogy further, we can play in any team we want. Like the free agent athlete, whatever team we choose, we will have to live with the consequences of our choice. If we choose good we can be happy with God. If we choose evil, Satan will own us.

From the very start Adam was 'free agent.' He didn't have the knowledge of good and evil. But he could decide to partake or not of the fruit. God was not forcing him one way or another. God forbade him, but didn't force him. The fruit was there, he could obey God or not. He chose to disobey.

Consider this:
When you wake up in the morning are you forced by God to eat? Are you forced by Satan to not take a shower? Are you forced by your boss to go to work? Are you forced by anyone to pick up an apple instead of a banana? Are you forced to pray?

The answer is: NO. You are are FREE to choose if you want to eat or not. You are FREE to decide to take a shower or not. You are FREE to go to work or not. You are FREE to decide if you want to pick up an apple or a banana. You are FREE to pray, and you are FREE to not pray? IT IS UP TO YOU.

THAT IS CALLED AGENCY. FREEDOM TO CHOOSE BETWEEN TWO OR SEVERAL OPTIONS. You are a free agent. You have this agency because you are a descendant of Adam, you inherited this freedom from him, which was given by God. If you didn't have that freedom you'd be an automaton, a robot. We are in likeness of God, God is not a robot.

Now, what we are not free to do is to choose the CONSEQUENCES of our decisions. With all decisions we make, there is a consequence attached to it whether we want it or not:

When you wake up in the morning:
IF you decide not to eat, you will be weak and starving all day. Being physically weak and starving are consequences you CANNOT change after you decide NOT to eat.

IF you decide not to take a shower you will be stinking. Smelling bad all day is a consequence you CANNOT change after you decided not to shower.

IF you decide not to go to work you cannot choose not to be fired or receive a smaller pay check at the end of the month. Being fired or receiving a smaller paycheck is a consequence you CANNOT change after having decided not to go to work.

IF you decide not to pray you cannot choose the fact that God will not answer your prayer. Not receiving answers to your prayer is a consequence you CANNOT change after having decided not to pray.


Like Adam you are free to choose, to make your own decisions. BUT, like Adam, you are not free to choose the consequences of the decisions you make.


It is that simple.
Be well,

mamre

 

[Bazz1040]

Read my posts in the thread and you will see what I believe !

This is what you said......If Adam [Mankind] had remained unfallen, without transgression, then He nor men in him could have entered that Kingdom of Eternal Glory to which all believers in Christ were destined before the foundation.

Now that sounds like your saying God had a chance of plan after Adam sinned.

 

[savedbygrace57]

This is what you said......If Adam [Mankind] had remained unfallen, without transgression, then He nor men in him could have entered that Kingdom of Eternal Glory to which all believers in Christ were destined before the foundation.

Now that sounds like your saying God had a chance of plan after Adam sinned.

No where in that statement did I say God had a change of plan !

Thats your distortion of what I stated.

 

[Bazz1040]

No where in that statement did I say God had a change of plan !

Thats your distortion of what I stated.

Sorry, my bad, I take what I said back; the error is on my part here.

 

[smaller]

smaller:

I have no idea what your are trying to say in your post

I cited my previous post in this thread. If you didn't bother to read it, I won't bother to respond to your post, as I already read yours and 'responded' to same with just as valid alternatives that are NOT like your positions, which I am very familiar with because I've taken the time to STUDY your positions and found them severely LACKING for 'myself.'

Sometimes it's good to get anothers view before trying to engage in the interests of civil and interested discourse.

s