Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

What Is Christianity?

gr8grace,
Free is right on this one and like Free, I'm curious about the address' of the scriptures you use to come to your conclusion.
Hello Bill,
First, it goes back to Adam. He suffered a spiritual death the moment he ate of the fruit.......separation from God. Later he suffered a physical death. It is the spiritual death(separation from God) that Christ came to save men from, not our physical death. Which is why we still die physically, if His physical death paid the price for our sins, we would not die physically.

Psalm 22 is Christ and His substitutionary spiritual death for the payment of sins. He was separated from the Father while the Father judged the sins of the entire world. Psalm 22:1-21 gives us the thinking of Christ as he was separated from His Father(He was physically alive during this). It is the only time He opened His mouth and screamed from the pain. All the physical blows and pain, He never opened His mouth.

Psalm 22:22-31 we see Christ back in fellowship with the Father and Christ as Lord..........still physically alive. Vs 31 is "it is finished." And brings us to John 19. Still physically alive.

John 19:28-37, After this, Jesus, knowing that all things had already been accomplished, to fulfill the Scripture, said, "I am thirsty." A jar full of sour wine was standing there; so they put a sponge full of the sour wine upon a branch of hyssop and brought it up to His mouth. Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit. Then the Jews, because it was the day of preparation, so that the bodies would not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away. So the soldiers came, and broke the legs of the first man and of the other who was crucified with Him; but coming to Jesus, when they saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs. But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out. And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you also may believe. For these things came to pass to fulfill the Scripture, "Not a bone of Him shall be broken." And again another Scripture says, "They shall look on Him Whom they pierced."

No, I do not think His Spirit died. He was separated from the Father. And I do believe that that was 100000000000 times worse for Him than any physical death or pain could bring.

We are all born spiritually dead and a spiritual death had to occur to bring us back to God and satisfy perfect justice.

The blood of Christ and His physical death, point to His TOTAL work on the cross and the salvation(from spiritual death) He bought for mankind.

A side note: It is why we are seeing more and more Christians going for annihilation. They think it is all physical and that our physical death can pay the price that Christ paid. They have no idea of the spiritual side of Christs death.
 
Hello Bill,
First, it goes back to Adam. He suffered a spiritual death the moment he ate of the fruit.......separation from God. Later he suffered a physical death. It is the spiritual death(separation from God) that Christ came to save men from, not our physical death. Which is why we still die physically, if His physical death paid the price for our sins, we would not die physically.

Psalm 22 is Christ and His substitutionary spiritual death for the payment of sins. He was separated from the Father while the Father judged the sins of the entire world. Psalm 22:1-21 gives us the thinking of Christ as he was separated from His Father(He was physically alive during this). It is the only time He opened His mouth and screamed from the pain. All the physical blows and pain, He never opened His mouth.

Psalm 22:22-31 we see Christ back in fellowship with the Father and Christ as Lord..........still physically alive. Vs 31 is "it is finished." And brings us to John 19. Still physically alive.

John 19:28-37, After this, Jesus, knowing that all things had already been accomplished, to fulfill the Scripture, said, "I am thirsty." A jar full of sour wine was standing there; so they put a sponge full of the sour wine upon a branch of hyssop and brought it up to His mouth. Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit. Then the Jews, because it was the day of preparation, so that the bodies would not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away. So the soldiers came, and broke the legs of the first man and of the other who was crucified with Him; but coming to Jesus, when they saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs. But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out. And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you also may believe. For these things came to pass to fulfill the Scripture, "Not a bone of Him shall be broken." And again another Scripture says, "They shall look on Him Whom they pierced."

No, I do not think His Spirit died. He was separated from the Father. And I do believe that that was 100000000000 times worse for Him than any physical death or pain could bring.

We are all born spiritually dead and a spiritual death had to occur to bring us back to God and satisfy perfect justice.

The blood of Christ and His physical death, point to His TOTAL work on the cross and the salvation(from spiritual death) He bought for mankind.

A side note: It is why we are seeing more and more Christians going for annihilation. They think it is all physical and that our physical death can pay the price that Christ paid. They have no idea of the spiritual side of Christs death.
I'm sorry, but this is the first time I have ever, even, heard Psalm 22 misused this way and I have hung out with a number 0f other Preachers, Evangelists and Pastors, some of them were different but not like this. You are the first person I have ever heard preach Psa 22 and Jesus' invoking of it by quoting the first verse as meaning anything other than Jesus proving He and the Father are never apart and of course, since Jesus was Spirit before Mary gave Him birth as a human and the Father is and always will be Spirit, He was of course concentrating on the Spiritual and not the Natural, as we know it.

Psalm 22, read in context, is a beautiful picture of the love within the God Head. I have taught, from before I was saved, that you never rip any statement apart to try to understand it but that is what you're doing here. This is the Word of God and i would be very careful how I handle it if I were you.
 
From the OP:
What is Christianity?
"Christianity" is a denomination, and those who are members of can be referred to as Christians.

(Edit, ToS 2.14, You do not dictate the actions of staff on this forum. Obadiah)


I do not claim the worldly title of 'Christian.' The term 'Christian' was used to describe a follower of Christ in terms of the world, from the world’s point of view. The pagans at Antioch called the apostles "Christians" first (Acts 11:26; 26:28) and used it derogatorily because the apostles didn’t follow the commercial world of the pagans. "Christian" is an adjective, not a noun. The substance is not in the word "Christian", the substance is in the heart of the man it is attempting to describe, and which the pagan user cannot see.

Christ never called himself a Christian, Christ never called his followers Christians. The apostles never called each other Christians. Christ never used an adjective to describe himself. So how are we to identify ourselves then? In scripture, the disciples called each other, "brethren", "disciples", "apostles", "servants", "believers", "followers", "the faithful", "the elect", "the called", and "saints." We can also identify ourselves as "bondservants" of Christ.

1 Peter 4:16, "Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf."

First of all, keep in mind this is the one and only place in the entire scripture this word is used by any man of God. Secondly, Peter did not label the followers of Christ a "Christian" in the passage. Read it again, very carefully. He said they were to be "as a Christian." This is very important. The word as means "like or similar to," but it does not mean one is that word. For example:

Genesis 49:9, "...he couched as a lion," does not mean Judah was a lion when he couched!

Exodus 15:5, "...they sank into the bottom as a stone," does not mean they were a stone when they sank.

Matthew 17:20, "...If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed," does not mean faith is a mustard seed.

Matthew 23:37, "...gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens," does not mean God's children were chickens.

Ephesians 5:25, "Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ," does not mean husbands are Christ when they love their wives.

And, therefore:

1 Peter 4:16, "Yet if any man suffer as a Christian," does not mean man is a Christian when they suffer.

When someone is "as" something else, it does not mean one is that something. It means we are similar, in some way, to that name, but we are not literally that name. You see, the heathens are the ones who called the followers of Christ "Christians" (Acts 11:26; 26:28). When Peter was referring to the title "Christian, " it is in the context of suffering, and is in reference to the name as imposed upon them by their enemies, because our enemies want us to suffer.

Is there other evidence in support of this position? Yes.


"Christian: A follower of the religion of Christ [Note carefully that Christ never started a religion - John 7:16]. It is probable that the name Christian, like that of Nazarenes and Galileans, was given to the disciples of our Lord in reproach or contempt. What confirms this opinion is, that the people of Antioch in Syria, Acts 11:26, where they were first called Christians observed by Zosimus, Procopius, and Zonaras, to have been remarkable for their scurrilous jesting. Some have indeed thought that this name was given by the disciples to themselves; others, that it was imposed on them by divine authority; in either of which cases we should have met with it in the subsequent history of the Acts, and in the Apostolic Epistles, all of which were written some years after; whereas it is found but in two more places in the New Testament, Acts 26:28, where a Jew is the speaker, and in 1 Peter 4:16, where reference appears to be made to the name as imposed on them by their enemies. The word used, Acts 11:26, signifies simply to be called or named, and when Doddridge and a few others take to imply a divine appointment, they disregard the usus loquendi [established acceptation of the term] which gives no support to that opinion. The words Tacitus, when speaking of the Christians persecuted by Nero, are remarkable, ‘vulgus Christianos appellabat,’ ‘the vulgar call them Christians.’ Epiphanius says, that they were called Jesseans, either from Jesse, the father of David, or, which is much more probable, from the name of Jesus, whose disciples they were. They were denominated Christians, A. D. 42 or 43; and though the name was first given reproachfully, they gloried in it, as expressing their adherence to Christ, and they soon generally accepted it." Richard Watson, Watson’s Bible Dictionary (1832), p. 233.

"Cristianos, Christian: a word formally not after the Greek but after the Roman manner, denoting attachment to or adherents to Christ. Only occurs as used by others of them, not by Christians of themselves. Tacitus (A.D. 96) says (Annals 15, 44), ‘The vulgar call them Christians. The author or origin of this denomination, Christus, had, in the reign of Tiberius been executed by the procurator, Pontius Pilate.’" Ethelbert William Bullinger, A Critical Lexicon and Concordance of the English and Greek New Testament (1908), p. 152.

"This name (Christian) occurs but three times in the New Testament, and is never used by Christians of themselves, only as spoken by or coming from those without the church. The general names by which the early Christians called themselves were ‘brethren,’ ‘disciples,’ ‘believers,’ and ‘saints.’ The presumption is that the name ‘Christian’ was originated by the heathen." Thomas W. Doane, Bible Myths (1882), page 567, note 3.

"The name (Christian) given by the Greeks or Romans, probably in reproach, to the followers of Jesus. It was first used at Antioch." Easton’s Bible Dictionary.

"Egypt, which you commanded to me, my dearest Servianus, I have found to be wholly fickle and inconsistent, and continually wafted about every breath of fame. The worshippers of Serapis (here) are called Christians, and those who are devoted to the god Serapis (I find), call themselves Bishops of Christ." The Emperor Adrian to Servianus, written A.D. 134.

If you go to Zodhiates Word Studies, he tells you that when they were called Christians at Antioch, using the word ‘crematezo,’ it was a "divine warning." In other words, be forewarned, avoid this word and the use of it. And that’s what the apostles did. You will never read any of these New Testament writers using the term ‘christian’ to describe themselves.

So, casually speaking, what is the gist of all this? When I witness the gospel to someone, if I mention the word "God," they stereotypically say, "Oh, what church do you go to?" That response is beyond commonplace. It's the same when I say I am a Christian. In other words, using that label of the world to describe who I am, rather than the words of Christ to define who I am, reduces the power of my witness.

How many of us use the words "Jesus Christ", rather than "Christian", when we witness? If you do, I guarantee your witness will be more effective. Indeed, some will manifest outright at the name of Jesus Christ, rather than merely yawn when you use the world's label of "Christian." Further, when is the last time in general you used the words "Jesus Christ" rather than "Christian"? Try it; you will not be disappointed or discouraged.

Either we endeavor to seek the truth, or we pander down to the P.C. thing and remain in bondage, knowingly or otherwise. The truth is always vehemently opposed at first. If we don’t want to discuss where the “Christian” label came from, then we’ve already declared our priority, haven’t we?

Your scripturally and factually based thoughts?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
From the OP:

"Christianity" is a denomination, and those who are members of can be referred to as Christians.

(Edit, ToS 2.14, You do not dictate the actions of staff on this forum. Obadiah)

I do not claim the worldly title of 'Christian.' The term 'Christian' was used to describe a follower of Christ in terms of the world, from the world’s point of view. The pagans at Antioch called the apostles "Christians" first (Acts 11:26; 26:28) and used it derogatorily because the apostles didn’t follow the commercial world of the pagans. "Christian" is an adjective, not a noun. The substance is not in the word "Christian", the substance is in the heart of the man it is attempting to describe, and which the pagan user cannot see.

Christ never called himself a Christian, Christ never called his followers Christians. The apostles never called each other Christians. Christ never used an adjective to describe himself. So how are we to identify ourselves then? In scripture, the disciples called each other, "brethren", "disciples", "apostles", "servants", "believers", "followers", "the faithful", "the elect", "the called", and "saints." We can also identify ourselves as "bondservants" of Christ.

1 Peter 4:16, "Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf."

First of all, keep in mind this is the one and only place in the entire scripture this word is used by any man of God. Secondly, Peter did not label the followers of Christ a "Christian" in the passage. Read it again, very carefully. He said they were to be "as a Christian." This is very important. The word as means "like or similar to," but it does not mean one is that word. For example:

Genesis 49:9, "...he couched as a lion," does not mean Judah was a lion when he couched!

Exodus 15:5, "...they sank into the bottom as a stone," does not mean they were a stone when they sank.

Matthew 17:20, "...If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed," does not mean faith is a mustard seed.

Matthew 23:37, "...gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens," does not mean God's children were chickens.

Ephesians 5:25, "Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ," does not mean husbands are Christ when they love their wives.

And, therefore:

1 Peter 4:16, "Yet if any man suffer as a Christian," does not mean man is a Christian when they suffer.

When someone is "as" something else, it does not mean one is that something. It means we are similar, in some way, to that name, but we are not literally that name. You see, the heathens are the ones who called the followers of Christ "Christians" (Acts 11:26; 26:28). When Peter was referring to the title "Christian, " it is in the context of suffering, and is in reference to the name as imposed upon them by their enemies, because our enemies want us to suffer.

Is there other evidence in support of this position? Yes.


"Christian: A follower of the religion of Christ [Note carefully that Christ never started a religion - John 7:16]. It is probable that the name Christian, like that of Nazarenes and Galileans, was given to the disciples of our Lord in reproach or contempt. What confirms this opinion is, that the people of Antioch in Syria, Acts 11:26, where they were first called Christians observed by Zosimus, Procopius, and Zonaras, to have been remarkable for their scurrilous jesting. Some have indeed thought that this name was given by the disciples to themselves; others, that it was imposed on them by divine authority; in either of which cases we should have met with it in the subsequent history of the Acts, and in the Apostolic Epistles, all of which were written some years after; whereas it is found but in two more places in the New Testament, Acts 26:28, where a Jew is the speaker, and in 1 Peter 4:16, where reference appears to be made to the name as imposed on them by their enemies. The word used, Acts 11:26, signifies simply to be called or named, and when Doddridge and a few others take to imply a divine appointment, they disregard the usus loquendi [established acceptation of the term] which gives no support to that opinion. The words Tacitus, when speaking of the Christians persecuted by Nero, are remarkable, ‘vulgus Christianos appellabat,’ ‘the vulgar call them Christians.’ Epiphanius says, that they were called Jesseans, either from Jesse, the father of David, or, which is much more probable, from the name of Jesus, whose disciples they were. They were denominated Christians, A. D. 42 or 43; and though the name was first given reproachfully, they gloried in it, as expressing their adherence to Christ, and they soon generally accepted it." Richard Watson, Watson’s Bible Dictionary (1832), p. 233.

"Cristianos, Christian: a word formally not after the Greek but after the Roman manner, denoting attachment to or adherents to Christ. Only occurs as used by others of them, not by Christians of themselves. Tacitus (A.D. 96) says (Annals 15, 44), ‘The vulgar call them Christians. The author or origin of this denomination, Christus, had, in the reign of Tiberius been executed by the procurator, Pontius Pilate.’" Ethelbert William Bullinger, A Critical Lexicon and Concordance of the English and Greek New Testament (1908), p. 152.

"This name (Christian) occurs but three times in the New Testament, and is never used by Christians of themselves, only as spoken by or coming from those without the church. The general names by which the early Christians called themselves were ‘brethren,’ ‘disciples,’ ‘believers,’ and ‘saints.’ The presumption is that the name ‘Christian’ was originated by the heathen." Thomas W. Doane, Bible Myths (1882), page 567, note 3.

"The name (Christian) given by the Greeks or Romans, probably in reproach, to the followers of Jesus. It was first used at Antioch." Easton’s Bible Dictionary.

"Egypt, which you commanded to me, my dearest Servianus, I have found to be wholly fickle and inconsistent, and continually wafted about every breath of fame. The worshippers of Serapis (here) are called Christians, and those who are devoted to the god Serapis (I find), call themselves Bishops of Christ." The Emperor Adrian to Servianus, written A.D. 134.

If you go to Zodhiates Word Studies, he tells you that when they were called Christians at Antioch, using the word ‘crematezo,’ it was a "divine warning." In other words, be forewarned, avoid this word and the use of it. And that’s what the apostles did. You will never read any of these New Testament writers using the term ‘christian’ to describe themselves.

So, casually speaking, what is the gist of all this? When I witness the gospel to someone, if I mention the word "God," they stereotypically say, "Oh, what church do you go to?" That response is beyond commonplace. It's the same when I say I am a Christian. In other words, using that label of the world to describe who I am, rather than the words of Christ to define who I am, reduces the power of my witness.

How many of us use the words "Jesus Christ", rather than "Christian", when we witness? If you do, I guarantee your witness will be more effective. Indeed, some will manifest outright at the name of Jesus Christ, rather than merely yawn when you use the world's label of "Christian." Further, when is the last time in general you used the words "Jesus Christ" rather than "Christian"? Try it; you will not be disappointed or discouraged.

Either we endeavor to seek the truth, or we pander down to the P.C. thing and remain in bondage, knowingly or otherwise. The truth is always vehemently opposed at first. If we don’t want to discuss where the “Christian” label came from, then we’ve already declared our priority, haven’t we?

Your scripturally and factually based thoughts?
I would say you've made a mountain out of a mole hill, but there is no mole hill. Christianity is not a denomination, it is a religion that has many denominations. And there is nothing wrong with the word "Christian" or its use. To say that the first use of Christian was derogatory is without support and is not necessarily true. It's a common belief but without any real basis.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
From the OP:

"Christianity" is a denomination, and those who are members of can be referred to as Christians.

(Edit, ToS 2.14, You do not dictate the actions of staff on this forum. Obadiah)


I do not claim the worldly title of 'Christian.' The term 'Christian' was used to describe a follower of Christ in terms of the world, from the world’s point of view. The pagans at Antioch called the apostles "Christians" first (Acts 11:26; 26:28) and used it derogatorily because the apostles didn’t follow the commercial world of the pagans. "Christian" is an adjective, not a noun. The substance is not in the word "Christian", the substance is in the heart of the man it is attempting to describe, and which the pagan user cannot see.

Christ never called himself a Christian, Christ never called his followers Christians. The apostles never called each other Christians. Christ never used an adjective to describe himself. So how are we to identify ourselves then? In scripture, the disciples called each other, "brethren", "disciples", "apostles", "servants", "believers", "followers", "the faithful", "the elect", "the called", and "saints." We can also identify ourselves as "bondservants" of Christ.

1 Peter 4:16, "Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf."

First of all, keep in mind this is the one and only place in the entire scripture this word is used by any man of God. Secondly, Peter did not label the followers of Christ a "Christian" in the passage. Read it again, very carefully. He said they were to be "as a Christian." This is very important. The word as means "like or similar to," but it does not mean one is that word. For example:

Genesis 49:9, "...he couched as a lion," does not mean Judah was a lion when he couched!

Exodus 15:5, "...they sank into the bottom as a stone," does not mean they were a stone when they sank.

Matthew 17:20, "...If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed," does not mean faith is a mustard seed.

Matthew 23:37, "...gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens," does not mean God's children were chickens.

Ephesians 5:25, "Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ," does not mean husbands are Christ when they love their wives.

And, therefore:

1 Peter 4:16, "Yet if any man suffer as a Christian," does not mean man is a Christian when they suffer.

When someone is "as" something else, it does not mean one is that something. It means we are similar, in some way, to that name, but we are not literally that name. You see, the heathens are the ones who called the followers of Christ "Christians" (Acts 11:26; 26:28). When Peter was referring to the title "Christian, " it is in the context of suffering, and is in reference to the name as imposed upon them by their enemies, because our enemies want us to suffer.

Is there other evidence in support of this position? Yes.


"Christian: A follower of the religion of Christ [Note carefully that Christ never started a religion - John 7:16]. It is probable that the name Christian, like that of Nazarenes and Galileans, was given to the disciples of our Lord in reproach or contempt. What confirms this opinion is, that the people of Antioch in Syria, Acts 11:26, where they were first called Christians observed by Zosimus, Procopius, and Zonaras, to have been remarkable for their scurrilous jesting. Some have indeed thought that this name was given by the disciples to themselves; others, that it was imposed on them by divine authority; in either of which cases we should have met with it in the subsequent history of the Acts, and in the Apostolic Epistles, all of which were written some years after; whereas it is found but in two more places in the New Testament, Acts 26:28, where a Jew is the speaker, and in 1 Peter 4:16, where reference appears to be made to the name as imposed on them by their enemies. The word used, Acts 11:26, signifies simply to be called or named, and when Doddridge and a few others take to imply a divine appointment, they disregard the usus loquendi [established acceptation of the term] which gives no support to that opinion. The words Tacitus, when speaking of the Christians persecuted by Nero, are remarkable, ‘vulgus Christianos appellabat,’ ‘the vulgar call them Christians.’ Epiphanius says, that they were called Jesseans, either from Jesse, the father of David, or, which is much more probable, from the name of Jesus, whose disciples they were. They were denominated Christians, A. D. 42 or 43; and though the name was first given reproachfully, they gloried in it, as expressing their adherence to Christ, and they soon generally accepted it." Richard Watson, Watson’s Bible Dictionary (1832), p. 233.

"Cristianos, Christian: a word formally not after the Greek but after the Roman manner, denoting attachment to or adherents to Christ. Only occurs as used by others of them, not by Christians of themselves. Tacitus (A.D. 96) says (Annals 15, 44), ‘The vulgar call them Christians. The author or origin of this denomination, Christus, had, in the reign of Tiberius been executed by the procurator, Pontius Pilate.’" Ethelbert William Bullinger, A Critical Lexicon and Concordance of the English and Greek New Testament (1908), p. 152.

"This name (Christian) occurs but three times in the New Testament, and is never used by Christians of themselves, only as spoken by or coming from those without the church. The general names by which the early Christians called themselves were ‘brethren,’ ‘disciples,’ ‘believers,’ and ‘saints.’ The presumption is that the name ‘Christian’ was originated by the heathen." Thomas W. Doane, Bible Myths (1882), page 567, note 3.

"The name (Christian) given by the Greeks or Romans, probably in reproach, to the followers of Jesus. It was first used at Antioch." Easton’s Bible Dictionary.

"Egypt, which you commanded to me, my dearest Servianus, I have found to be wholly fickle and inconsistent, and continually wafted about every breath of fame. The worshippers of Serapis (here) are called Christians, and those who are devoted to the god Serapis (I find), call themselves Bishops of Christ." The Emperor Adrian to Servianus, written A.D. 134.

If you go to Zodhiates Word Studies, he tells you that when they were called Christians at Antioch, using the word ‘crematezo,’ it was a "divine warning." In other words, be forewarned, avoid this word and the use of it. And that’s what the apostles did. You will never read any of these New Testament writers using the term ‘christian’ to describe themselves.

So, casually speaking, what is the gist of all this? When I witness the gospel to someone, if I mention the word "God," they stereotypically say, "Oh, what church do you go to?" That response is beyond commonplace. It's the same when I say I am a Christian. In other words, using that label of the world to describe who I am, rather than the words of Christ to define who I am, reduces the power of my witness.

How many of us use the words "Jesus Christ", rather than "Christian", when we witness? If you do, I guarantee your witness will be more effective. Indeed, some will manifest outright at the name of Jesus Christ, rather than merely yawn when you use the world's label of "Christian." Further, when is the last time in general you used the words "Jesus Christ" rather than "Christian"? Try it; you will not be disappointed or discouraged.

Either we endeavor to seek the truth, or we pander down to the P.C. thing and remain in bondage, knowingly or otherwise. The truth is always vehemently opposed at first. If we don’t want to discuss where the “Christian” label came from, then we’ve already declared our priority, haven’t we?

Your scripturally and factually based thoughts?


An Electrician is someone who practices the work involving electricity.

A Christian is someone who practices the work of Christ, because they have been reconciled to God through Jesus Christ, and now have His Spirit who leads them and guides them in expressing His Life.


JLB
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Christians are followers of Christ "disciples"

Acts 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

tob
 
Christianity is not a denomination, it is a religion that has many denominations.
Religion = piety. We’ve already shown with scripture that Jesus never started a religion via John 7:16. (So who did?)

And there is nothing wrong with the word "Christian"...
I never said it was “wrong.”

...or its use.
That’s your opinion. Do you have any scripture (re: forum rules) or other facts to support your claim?

To say that the first use of Christian was derogatory is without support and is not necessarily true.
Did you not read my post in its entirety? Rather I’ve shown you both scriptural and historical records. Do you have any scripture (re: forum rules) or other facts to support your denial?

It's a common belief but without any real basis.
If the provided scripture ref’s and historical ref’s are not a “real basis” for you, then what would be?

Acts 11:26...And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.
It doesn't say they called each other. that name. On the contrary; who called them "Christians"? Called "Christians" by whom? (Hint: see post #43).
.
.
.
 
Last edited:
Religion = piety. We’ve already shown with scripture that Jesus never started a religion via John 7:16. (So who did?)


I never said it was “wrong.”


That’s your opinion. Do you have any scripture (re: forum rules) or other facts to support your claim?


Did you not read my post in its entirety? Rather I’ve shown you both scriptural and historical records. Do you have any scripture (re: forum rules) or other facts to support your denial?


If the provided scripture ref’s and historical ref’s are not a “real basis” for you, then what would be?


It doesn't say they called each other. that name. On the contrary; who called them "Christians"? Called "Christians" by whom? (Hint: see post #43).

Maybe Paul, he was there with the disciples, God knows its his word not mine..

tob
 
It wasn't Christs physical death and blood that paid for our sins. Many of men have died(physically) for their loved ones or friends.
I've always believed it was Christ's physical death and blood that paid for our sins, and I also believe that this form of payment was the established legal means according to The Old Testament to become right before God. I also believe that Satan was administering the Old Testament at the time, and he had the power of death because of it. However, I admit I have never considered that he died spiritually as well and that is intriguing to me.

Yes many men have died for others, but this man Jesus was without sin and yet carried our sins on the cross. What always convinced me of divine love was that he asked for forgiveness for those who scorned him, beat him and mercilessly crucified him. It seems to me that according to scripture all of this most extremely sorrowful journey through death, was for the purpose of taking the power of death away from Satan. Hebrews 2:14. These are therefore actually heavenly issues being dealt with on earth. I don't see how they could be recognized in the Gospel alone. Someone had to have divine revelation of these events.

The blood of Christ depicts His total work on the cross. In the OT the blood was literal and the judgement was symbolic. In the NT, the Blood was symbolic and the judgement was literal.
I can see why you would say the blood in the New Testament is not literal. Jesus says his blood is drink when in fact he is saying his divine Love will be revealed in his death.

Christ died spiritually for our sins. My God,My God,why have you forsaken me? And He was still physically alive when He said,"It is finished." This is true love. If His physical death paid for our sins, we would never die physically.
Okay, this is interesting. From what you say above, I am left with the impression that the sentiment , My God, why have you forsaken me, is to be taken to mean that God's Spirit or countenance is no longer present in him just before he dies physically, therefore you are saying he is spiritually dead as is any other man with sin. I am only guessing that this is what you mean. In other words, Jesus lost his, for lack of a better word, Godliness? 2 Corinthians 5:21. This would mean that once a man is separated from God he cannot come back, which is why only one who was sinless was the only sacrifice that would accomplish God's will.

Our "life" is in our soul. Not in our blood, like the animal sacrifices.
Or as Jesus said, the Spirit is Life the flesh profits nothing.

Good post, very deep.
 
Last edited:
I've always believed it was Christ's physical death and blood that paid for our sins, and I also believe that this form of payment was the established legal means according to The Old Testament to become right before God. I also believe that Satan was administering the Old Testament at the time, and he had the power of death because of it. However, I admit I have never considered that he died spiritually as well and that is intriguing to me.

Yes many men have died for others, but this man Jesus was without sin and yet carried our sins on the cross. What always convinced me of divine love was that he asked for forgiveness for those who scorned him, beat him and mercilessly crucified him. It seems to me that according to scripture all of this most extremely sorrowful journey through death, was for the purpose of taking the power of death away from Satan. These are therefore actually heavenly issues being dealt with on earth. I don't see how they could be recognized in the Gospel alone. Someone had to have divine revelation of these events.

I can see why you would say the blood in the New Testament is not literal. Jesus says his blood is drink when in fact he is saying his divine Love will be revealed in his death.


Okay, this is interesting. From what you say above, I am left with the impression that the sentiment , My God, why have you forsaken me, is to be taken to mean that God's Spirit or countenance is no longer present in him just before he dies physically, therefore you are saying he is spiritually dead as is any other man with sin. I am only guessing that this is what you mean. In other words, Jesus lost his, for lack of a better word, Godliness? 2 Corinthians 5:21. This would mean that once a man is separated from God he cannot come back, which is why only one who was sinless was the only sacrifice that would accomplish God's will.


Or as Jesus said, the Spirit is Life the flesh profits nothing.

Good post, very deep.

The body without the spirit is dead.

James 2
 
I've always believed it was Christ's physical death and blood that paid for our sins, and I also believe that this form of payment was the established legal means according to The Old Testament to become right before God. I also believe that Satan was administering the Old Testament at the time, and he had the power of death because of it. However, I admit I have never considered that he died spiritually as well and that is intriguing to me.

Yes many men have died for others, but this man Jesus was without sin and yet carried our sins on the cross. What always convinced me of divine love was that he asked for forgiveness for those who scorned him, beat him and mercilessly crucified him. It seems to me that according to scripture all of this most extremely sorrowful journey through death, was for the purpose of taking the power of death away from Satan. Hebrews 2:14. These are therefore actually heavenly issues being dealt with on earth. I don't see how they could be recognized in the Gospel alone. Someone had to have divine revelation of these events.

I can see why you would say the blood in the New Testament is not literal. Jesus says his blood is drink when in fact he is saying his divine Love will be revealed in his death.


Okay, this is interesting. From what you say above, I am left with the impression that the sentiment , My God, why have you forsaken me, is to be taken to mean that God's Spirit or countenance is no longer present in him just before he dies physically, therefore you are saying he is spiritually dead as is any other man with sin. I am only guessing that this is what you mean. In other words, Jesus lost his, for lack of a better word, Godliness? 2 Corinthians 5:21. This would mean that once a man is separated from God he cannot come back, which is why only one who was sinless was the only sacrifice that would accomplish God's will.


Or as Jesus said, the Spirit is Life the flesh profits nothing.

Good post, very deep.
Be careful and as Paul instructed, be like a Berean and check everything with the Word of God. G8G pulled Psa. 22 apart to get to this thought and scripture must never be treated that way. A very important rule of Hermeneutics and I call it the first rule is no single scripture, selection of scripture nor any collection of scripture can ever begin to be, properly, understood without the light of all other scripture shining on it.

Couple this with the common sense that used to be taught in school of never pull anything out of it's context and you will have a very solid and biblical method of understanding and please, never grow arrogant like most and believe "you" can interpret scripture. There is not a single human being in this world that can interpret what God has said without the indwelling of and submission to the Holy Spirit.

When Jesus quoted the first verse of the Psalm He invoked all of it and applied it, in itś entirety, to His physical self. I don't recall the book but when I studied the ancient customs of the First Century Period, I learned that invoking and applying a Psalm to one's life by quoting the first verse was not at all uncommon. And when we read th Psalm in itś entirety we see that when Jesus was in the grave, preaching and emptying Paradise (Matthew 27:50-53) the Father was watching and caring for him. Unlike Adam, a created man (Gen. chaps 1&2) Jesus, God in the Flesh of man, did not spiritually die. For Him to have died Spiritually He could not have been God because God is Eternal and we must never forget that.
 
This a a good sleeper question Rollo. Sounds like a meager question at first but gets deep quickly. :)

Personally, I see real Christianity as fellowship, as was noted. It started out with fellowship, was lost, and God immediately implemented a plan to get us back into fellowship with Him. I'm starting to understand that Christianity is not, receiving and being saved and one day, when I die in the flesh, I'll get to go the the ethereal heaven which is out there far above us somewhere and then get to experience living in the Kingdom of God where everything is peachy and peaceful and we will finally experience the fullness of Heaven...Not! :confused2:screwloose

Ahem. The Kingdom of God is within you. (Luke 17:20-21). The Kingdom of God is at hand. (Mark 1:15)...We are supposed to experience the fullness of heaven while we are yet here on the earth!

...Thy Kingdom come, on earth as it is in Heaven...(Matthew 6:10)
with the authority of the Kingdom...(Luke 10:19)

Even John 14:12
12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father./

speaks in the context of being on earth, He clarifys this here to the disciples. This is Jesus saying all these things...He's explaining normal Christianity and how it is to be, here on earth, before we go to Heaven.

My guess at this point is that we need to penetrate that veil. It's torn in half, the door is cracked open brothers and sisters. All we need to do is to walk through it. This is cool stuff. I'd like to walk through walls and stuff like that.

glass-doors-are-dangerous-7.gif


That's my first try, lol.
 
The word as means "like or similar to," but it does not mean one is that word.
[...]
When someone is "as" something else, it does not mean one is that something. It means we are similar, in some way, to that name, but we are not literally that name.
15 Make sure that none * of you suffers as a murderer, or thief, or evildoer, or a troublesome meddler... (1 Peter 4:15 NASB)
:confused
 
Your scripturally and factually based thoughts?
Paul does not correct Agrippa when he refers to becoming a 'Christian':

28 Agrippa replied to Paul, "In a short time you will persuade me to become a Christian." 29 And Paul said, "I would wish to God, that whether in a short or long time, not only you, but also all who hear me this day, might become such as I am, except for these chains." (Acts 26:28-29 NASB)

Either we endeavor to seek the truth, or we pander down to the P.C. thing and remain in bondage, knowingly or otherwise. The truth is always vehemently opposed at first. If we don’t want to discuss where the “Christian” label came from, then we’ve already declared our priority, haven’t we?
15 Make sure that none * of you suffers as a murderer, or thief, or evildoer, or a troublesome meddler; 16 but if anyone suffers as a Christian, he is not to be ashamed, but is to glorify God in this name." (1 Peter 4:15-16 NASB)

Honestly, it seems you just don't want to do what Peter said. You are ashamed to suffer as a Christian (he said not to be ashamed) and you do not want to "glorify God in this name" (you want to glorify God in another name).
 
Paul does not correct Agrippa when he refers to becoming a 'Christian':

28 Agrippa replied to Paul, "In a short time you will persuade me to become a Christian." 29 And Paul said, "I would wish to God, that whether in a short or long time, not only you, but also all who hear me this day, might become such as I am, except for these chains." (Acts 26:28-29 NASB)


15 Make sure that none * of you suffers as a murderer, or thief, or evildoer, or a troublesome meddler; 16 but if anyone suffers as a Christian, he is not to be ashamed, but is to glorify God in this name." (1 Peter 4:15-16 NASB)

Honestly, it seems you just don't want to do what Peter said. You are ashamed to suffer as a Christian (he said not to be ashamed) and you do not want to "glorify God in this name" (you want to glorify God in another name).

...as it seems.
 
I'm sorry, but this is the first time I have ever, even, heard Psalm 22 misused this way and I have hung out with a number 0f other Preachers, Evangelists and Pastors, some of them were different but not like this. You are the first person I have ever heard preach Psa 22 and Jesus' invoking of it by quoting the first verse as meaning anything other than Jesus proving He and the Father are never apart and of course, since Jesus was Spirit before Mary gave Him birth as a human and the Father is and always will be Spirit, He was of course concentrating on the Spiritual and not the Natural, as we know it.

Psalm 22, read in context, is a beautiful picture of the love within the God Head. I have taught, from before I was saved, that you never rip any statement apart to try to understand it but that is what you're doing here. This is the Word of God and i would be very careful how I handle it if I were you.
Verse 1 is a rhetorical question. Christ knew why the Father abandoned Him in His humanity. He says why in verse 3.........Because He is Holy. God the Father had to abandon His Sons perfect humanity while Christ carried our sins and had those sins Judged. The deity of Christ was never separated from the Father.

Verse 1 is for our benefit. The Father can't have a relationship with us because of our sin. It is why we are separated(spiritually), from the Father. And why Jesus was forsaken/abandoned(our spiritual substitute) by the Father.....In His perfect humanity, not His deity.
 
Verse 1 is a rhetorical question. Christ knew why the Father abandoned Him in His humanity. He says why in verse 3.........Because He is Holy. God the Father had to abandon His Sons perfect humanity while Christ carried our sins and had those sins Judged. The deity of Christ was never separated from the Father.

Verse 1 is for our benefit. The Father can't have a relationship with us because of our sin. It is why we are separated(spiritually), from the Father. And why Jesus was forsaken/abandoned(our spiritual substitute) by the Father.....In His perfect humanity, not His deity.
That's good and if you've abandoned the idea He died spiritually you have all of it, right there.
 
That's good and if you've abandoned the idea He died spiritually you have all of it, right there.

I will have to admit, My Jury is still out on this one. Pretty sad, considering the revelation I have and what I know. I can't let religion creep in at any cost. So my Jury is still out.

Jesus was made sin, who did not know sin.
2Co_5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Well, all of mankind's sin was put on Him, He bore the punishment, the sickness, the sorrow we deserved here and now, and in the life to come.

No scripture says he spiritually died though. He went to hell because that is where everyone had to go anyway. Not because of sin, you had to go to Abraham's bosom. Jesus had no choice, in that matter dying as a man.

In my reasoning, You don't go to Hell, preach to the spirits captive there, kick the devils butt and take the keys of death and hell away being spiritually dead. A spiritually dead person can't do all that.

Col_1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Jesus was the "Firstborn" from the dead. Does not use the term "Born again" If he was the firstborn from the dead, then we are the 2nd, 33rd, and our number is in there somewhere. We don't taste death though. Just born again.

Rev_1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Jesus was dead, and if we don't add a spiritual spin on this, then He was dead because they crucified him. He had to be alive and kicking to grab the keys of hell and death though spiritually.

Jesus said let the dead bury the dead. So we are considered dead, until born again. That would explain how we are the 3rd and so fourth firstborn.

Was Jesus ever Born again?

Well, He never sinned, and who would He get born again under? Scripture never says he was Born again.

I have to lean on the side that He did not die spiritually, despite being made sin. The spiritually dead don't preach, set captives free, and kick the devils butt all in 3 days.

blessings.
 
I will have to admit, My Jury is still out on this one. Pretty sad, considering the revelation I have and what I know. I can't let religion creep in at any cost. So my Jury is still out.

Jesus was made sin, who did not know sin.
2Co_5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Well, all of mankind's sin was put on Him, He bore the punishment, the sickness, the sorrow we deserved here and now, and in the life to come.

No scripture says he spiritually died though. He went to hell because that is where everyone had to go anyway. Not because of sin, you had to go to Abraham's bosom. Jesus had no choice, in that matter dying as a man.

In my reasoning, You don't go to Hell, preach to the spirits captive there, kick the devils butt and take the keys of death and hell away being spiritually dead. A spiritually dead person can't do all that.

Col_1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Jesus was the "Firstborn" from the dead. Does not use the term "Born again" If he was the firstborn from the dead, then we are the 2nd, 33rd, and our number is in there somewhere. We don't taste death though. Just born again.

Rev_1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Jesus was dead, and if we don't add a spiritual spin on this, then He was dead because they crucified him. He had to be alive and kicking to grab the keys of hell and death though spiritually.

Jesus said let the dead bury the dead. So we are considered dead, until born again. That would explain how we are the 3rd and so fourth firstborn.

Was Jesus ever Born again?

Well, He never sinned, and who would He get born again under? Scripture never says he was Born again.

I have to lean on the side that He did not die spiritually, despite being made sin. The spiritually dead don't preach, set captives free, and kick the devils butt all in 3 days.

blessings.
His substitutionary Spiritual death(His perfect humanity being separated from the Father when Sin was judged) was the three hours of darkness on the cross.
Mark 15:33~~New American Standard Bible
When the sixth hour came, darkness fell over the whole land until the ninth hour.

His trip to hades was His soul preaching to the fallen angels and emptying paradise to bring all believers to heaven with Him, while His body was in the grave and His Spirit was with the Father in heaven.

Luke 23:46~~New American Standard Bible
And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, "Father, INTO YOUR HANDS I COMMIT MY SPIRIT." Having said this, He breathed His last.

Eph 4~~…8Therefore it says, "WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH, HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES, AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN."9(Now this expression, "He ascended," what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth?10He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.
 
Last edited:
(Post removed for not adhering to forum guidelines to base comments on scripture. Obadiah.)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Back
Top