What is The Baptism that saves us now?

[jaybo]

It says exactly that.

Mark 16:16 ---> "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."

It looks like you and the other anti-Sacramentalists are trying to center the command on "believe" and make the point that if one doesn't believe the Gospel, he'll be condemned.

Guess what, no one disputes that!

But the teaching of Jesus in Mark 16.16 is NOT what is required to be damned, but what is required to be saved. The conclusion many of you are trying to reach-- which is that because not believing alone is sufficient to condemn, therefore believing alone is sufficient to be saved -- is both illogical, and false to the text.

First, our Blessed Lord describes two necessary conditions in the first clause: belief and baptism. In the second clause, He is describing a person who, by not believing, lacks the first essential condition. Ergo, that person will not be saved.

Second, why do you all seem to think that because Jesus doesn't mention baptism in the second clause, that He's taking back what He said about the need for baptism in the first clause? He was clearly understandable to the Apostles -- and to the entire Christian world except for a minority of Protestant dissenters -- to be saying that he who believes them when they preach the Gospel, and therefore believe their preaching of baptism for the remission of their sins (Act 2.38) -- and obey, will be saved. It's obvious that Jesus and His Apostles understood that no one who refused the Gospel was going to be baptized. Why would he?

Furthermore, you are being false to the text by attempting to use the second clause to nullify the first. Jesus already introduced belief as one of two necessary conditions for salvation in the first clause. Since the unbeliever in the second clause already lacks the one of the two essential conditions, there is no reason to even mention the second, which would be insufficient by itself. Why would there need to be a separate penalty for not being baptized or any other omission? The person who doesn't believe has already failed to meet one of the two necessary conditions that Jesus just laid down: belief and baptism. There is no logical need for an additional "penalty."

Are you and the other anti-Sacramentalists asking us to believe that Jesus' command in Mark 16.16 is His way of saying if you don't get baptized, God won't hold that against you? In other words, baptism is just a suggestion?

If you consider Mark 16:16 is part of the original gospel (and therefore Scripture) and wasn't added later, then be careful playing with snakes and drinking poison. Mark 16:18a, "they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them;"

Even if you can't accept that is is clearly a non-Markan addition, consider what 16:16 says: "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." The emphasis is on belief. It doesn't matter if a person is baptized multiple times, if they don't believe that Jesus died for their sins and that they have a new life in Him, they are not saved.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Transferring a verbal metaphor to a noun doesn't work.

You are operating on an assumption that scripture itself does not support. When John said, "He will baptize you in the Holy Spirit, and in fire," he wasn't using a metaphor any more than when he said, "I baptize you in water."

Baptising with water and, if you want to use the term, "baptising with the Holy Spirit"are two separate events.

That's just it. Scripture itself uses the term. Why are you trying to write it out of scripture as being somehow made up by someone else?

 

[JLB]

No I don't see that a person must first believe and be saved in order to be water baptized?
I believe what Jesus said "He who believes and is baptized will be saved"

That’s because you don’t get your understanding from the scriptures.

Here it is again —


Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?”
Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.”
Acts 8:36-37



JLB

 

[JLB]

Exactly! The subject is NOT how one is born the first time, but rather how one IS born AGAIN.

How can a person be born AGAIN, if they were not born?


Jesus is using natural birth (earthly things) to each spiritual birth (heavenly things).

 

[Runmyramble]

It says exactly that.

Mark 16:16 ---> "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."

It looks like you and the other anti-Sacramentalists are trying to center the command on "believe" and make the point that if one doesn't believe the Gospel, he'll be condemned.

Guess what, no one disputes that!

But the teaching of Jesus in Mark 16.16 is NOT what is required to be damned, but what is required to be saved. The conclusion many of you are trying to reach-- which is that because not believing alone is sufficient to condemn, therefore believing alone is sufficient to be saved -- is both illogical, and false to the text.

First, our Blessed Lord describes two necessary conditions in the first clause: belief and baptism. In the second clause, He is describing a person who, by not believing, lacks the first essential condition. Ergo, that person will not be saved.

Second, why do you all seem to think that because Jesus doesn't mention baptism in the second clause, that He's taking back what He said about the need for baptism in the first clause? He was clearly understandable to the Apostles -- and to the entire Christian world except for a minority of Protestant dissenters -- to be saying that he who believes them when they preach the Gospel, and therefore believe their preaching of baptism for the remission of their sins (Act 2.38) -- and obey, will be saved. It's obvious that Jesus and His Apostles understood that no one who refused the Gospel was going to be baptized. Why would he?

Furthermore, you are being false to the text by attempting to use the second clause to nullify the first. Jesus already introduced belief as one of two necessary conditions for salvation in the first clause. Since the unbeliever in the second clause already lacks the one of the two essential conditions, there is no reason to even mention the second, which would be insufficient by itself. Why would there need to be a separate penalty for not being baptized or any other omission? The person who doesn't believe has already failed to meet one of the two necessary conditions that Jesus just laid down: belief and baptism. There is no logical need for an additional "penalty."

Are you and the other anti-Sacramentalists asking us to believe that Jesus' command in Mark 16.16 is His way of saying if you don't get baptized, God won't hold that against you? In other words, baptism is just a suggestion?

Mark says that...but not Matthew

 

[Mungo]

You are operating on an assumption that scripture itself does not support. When John said, "He will baptize you in the Holy Spirit, and in fire," he wasn't using a metaphor any more than when he said, "I baptize you in water."

I disagree. It's made up because some protestants cannot understand the role of Baptism with water.
In Acts1:5 Luke writes that Jesus told the apostles
"for John baptized with water, but before many days you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”
In his gospel Luke writes that Jesus told the apostles
"And behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you; but stay in the city, until you are clothed with power from on high.” (Lk 24:49)
I believe both are referring to the coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.
But we don't people going on about anything about "power clothes".
"Have you got your power clothes yet?"
It's obviously a metaphor, the same as Acts 1:5

That's just it. Scripture itself uses the term. Why are you trying to write it out of scripture as being somehow made up by someone else?

Scripture doesn't use the term "Baptism with the Holy Spirit" only the verb form.

 

[Mungo]

That’s because you don’t get your understanding from the scriptures.

Here it is again —


Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?”
Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.”
Acts 8:36-37



JLB

You are assuming that the eunuch was saved when he believed but that is not true. He needed to be baptised to be saved. That's why he wanted to be baptised as soon as he saw some water.

Follow it through
Jesus said "He who believes and is baptized will be saved"
The eunuch believed. Belief must come first. That is the sequence that Jesus gave.
Then, because he believed, he could be baptised, thus fulfilling the second part of Jesus' statement.
Having done both the third part of Jesus' statement was true - he was saved.

 

[JLB]

You are assuming that the eunuch was saved when he believed but that is not true. He needed to be baptised to be saved. That's why he wanted to be baptised as soon as he saw some water.

Follow it through
Jesus said "He who believes and is baptized will be saved"
The eunuch believed. Belief must come first. That is the sequence that Jesus gave.
Then, because he believed, he could be baptised, thus fulfilling the second part of Jesus' statement.
Having done both the third part of Jesus' statement was true - he was saved.

You simply deny the truth of the scriptures.

Only people who believe are baptized.

Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?”
Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.”
Acts 8:36-37

Infant baptism is false doctrine.

We are saved when we believe. —


Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

• lest they should believe and be saved.

There are three baptisms. We are baptized into Christ by the Spirit when we believe.


This is when we are born again; saved, regenerated


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16


And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; Mark 16:15-16

Here is the evidence of a believer;

• And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;

Casting out demons and speaking in tongues are signs that are evidence of a true believer.

You assume that water baptism is what Jesus is referring to here.

Being baptized into Christ by the Spirit, when we believe is when we are saved; born again, regenerated.


For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:13


The New Birth, being born again, comes by the Spirit when we believe.

Afterward, if we truly believe, then we are baptized in water by a person.

Then we can be baptized by Jesus with the Spirit.

1. Baptized by the Spirit into Christ; born again, regeneration
2. Baptized by man in water if we have believed; full immersion
3. Baptized by Jesus with the Holy Spirit; Receive Power

Here are the 3 corresponding scriptures:

1. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:13
2. for John truly baptized with water,
3. but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” Acts 1:5

Here are the three baptisms as typified in the Old Testament —


Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 1 Corinthians 10:1-2

1. all were baptized into Moses: Spirit baptized into Christ
2. in the cloud: Jesus baptized with the Spirit
3. and in the sea: man baptized with water

JLB

 

[Runmyramble]

You are ignoring post #138 and #143

You are also ignoring the words of Jesus "He who believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mk 16:16)

Sorry, I keep doing that.
I mean Mk 16:16

But He wo does not believe will be condemn....

It does not say He who is not Baptized will be condemn

Through the Bible we see that Baptism was A rite.
People accepted the teaching and were Baptized...

Henceforth ...the logic
He that keeps the law and is circumcised will receive blessings.
But as you see circumcism was for those who keep it.....but wait the Gentiles were not circumcised in the flesh yet circumcision would be counted unto them if they also held to the law.

Yet many of the circumcised did not keep the Law...so pointless...

But niether circumcision nor uncircumcision avail for anything the only thing that matters was faith worked by love.

My point being if we are to take this passage at it's word we also need to know the background....

Why do people get the right hand of fellowship....it's a rite..

Think about the situation....at one point only the Jews were accepted....but see if we accept Peter at His word and understanding where he's at in his understanding....He's showing that anyone who believes and fears God can be part of the body.....recall He says He can see that God is no respecter of Person any one who fears God and does righteous is acceptable to Him.

We try to kick people out by ...things we make Legal...as they try to impose circumcision on the Gentiles...

It seems Peter makes a declarative statement...and we can't make what He said into legalism....

Here is an example of a declarative statement:

He who studies and attends the graduation will have great knowledge.

But He that does not study will not have knowledge. (Truth)

A person can attend the graduation and never studied will He have knowledge?

Likewise, a person can get Baptized...who never believed right...
But is He saved...?

Point is you see that usually if one was delivered by God...they outwardly manifested it through water Baptism...
That seem to be in scripture the standard way.

The Baptism is when God lifts you out..
It is Spiritual.
The pledge of a good Conscience before God is The Holy Spirit the Seal....

And if we by the Spirit put away the deeds of the flesh we shall Live....

 

[Runmyramble]

But He wo does not believe will be condemn....

It does not say He who is not Baptized will be condemn

Through the Bible we see that Baptism was A rite.
People accepted the teaching and were Baptized...

Henceforth ...the logic
He that keeps the law and is circumcised will receive blessings.
But as you see circumcism was for those who keep it.....but wait the Gentiles were not circumcised in the flesh yet circumcision would be counted unto them if they also held to the law.

Yet many of the circumcised did not keep the Law...so pointless...

But niether circumcision nor uncircumcision avail for anything the only thing that matters was faith worked by love.

My point being if we are to take this passage at it's word we also need to know the background....

Why do people get the right hand of fellowship....it's a rite..

Think about the situation....at one point only the Jews were accepted....but see if we accept Peter at His word and understanding where he's at in his understanding....He's showing that anyone who believes and fears God can be part of the body.....recall He says He can see that God is no respecter of Person any one who fears God and does righteous is acceptable to Him.

We try to kick people out by ...things we make Legal...as they try to impose circumcision on the Gentiles...

It seems Peter makes a declarative statement...and we can't make what He said into legalism....

Here is an example of a declarative statement:

He who studies and attends the graduation will have great knowledge.

But He that does not study will not have knowledge. (Truth)

A person can attend the graduation and never studied will He have knowledge?

Likewise, a person can get Baptized...who never believed right...
But is He saved...?

Point is you see that usually if one was delivered by God...they outwardly manifested it through water Baptism...
That seem to be in scripture the standard way.

The Baptism is when God lifts you out..
It is Spiritual.
The pledge of a good Conscience before God is The Holy Spirit the Seal....

And if we by the Spirit put away the deeds of the flesh we shall Live....

 

[Walpole]

If you consider Mark 16:16 is part of the original gospel (and therefore Scripture) and wasn't added later, then be careful playing with snakes and drinking poison. Mark 16:18a, "they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them;"

Thankfully our Blessed Lord did not condition salvation on handling snakes and drinking poison.

Even if you can't accept that is is clearly a non-Markan addition, consider what 16:16 says: "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." The emphasis is on belief. It doesn't matter if a person is baptized multiple times, if they don't believe that Jesus died for their sins and that they have a new life in Him, they are not saved.

Did you even read my post? I addressed your objection - in detail - right here ---> https://christianforums.net/threads/what-is-the-baptism-that-saves-us-now.91910/post-1691596

The condition / "emphasis" as you state, is on belief AND baptism.

I'll repost what I wrote...

...But the teaching of Jesus in Mark 16.16 is NOT what is required to be damned, but what is required to be saved. The conclusion many of you are trying to reach-- which is that because not believing alone is sufficient to condemn, therefore believing alone is sufficient to be saved -- is both illogical, and false to the text.

First, our Blessed Lord describes two necessary conditions in the first clause: belief and baptism. In the second clause, He is describing a person who, by not believing, lacks the first essential condition. Ergo, that person will not be saved.

Second, why do you all seem to think that because Jesus doesn't mention baptism in the second clause, that He's taking back what He said about the need for baptism in the first clause? He was clearly understandable to the Apostles -- and to the entire Christian world except for a minority of Protestant dissenters -- to be saying that he who believes them when they preach the Gospel, and therefore believe their preaching of baptism for the remission of their sins (Act 2.38) -- and obey, will be saved. It's obvious that Jesus and His Apostles understood that no one who refused the Gospel was going to be baptized. Why would he?

Furthermore, you are being false to the text by attempting to use the second clause to nullify the first. Jesus already introduced belief as one of two necessary conditions for salvation in the first clause. Since the unbeliever in the second clause already lacks the one of the two essential conditions, there is no reason to even mention the second, which would be insufficient by itself. Why would there need to be a separate penalty for not being baptized or any other omission? The person who doesn't believe has already failed to meet one of the two necessary conditions that Jesus just laid down: belief and baptism. There is no logical need for an additional "penalty."

Are you and the other anti-Sacramentalists asking us to believe that Jesus' command in Mark 16.16 is His way of saying if you don't get baptized, God won't hold that against you? In other words, baptism is just a suggestion?

 

[Walpole]

Mark says that...but not Matthew

The poster stated he meant Mark 16:16. That was clear from his posts as well.

 

[Walpole]

How can a person be born AGAIN, if they were not born?


Jesus is using natural birth (earthly things) to each spiritual birth (heavenly things).

Nicodemus was already born. This is why Jesus corrects him, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.”

It would have been redundant for Jesus to say that one must be physically born to enter the kingdom, as Nicodemus had already met that condition. In addition, Jesus would be affirming Nicodemus' erroneous understanding if water meant natural / physical child birth. This is why Jesus, in verse 5, states exactly HOW one becomes born again, which is via the water and the Spirit.

Lastly, I asked this earlier but no one answered for obvious reasons. Can you give me an example in Scripture where being physically born is referred to as being born of water?

You cannot, as there is NOWHERE in Scripture or in modern parlance where being physically born is referred to as being "born of water". You don't hear new mothers saying, "This is my new water baby!" Or, "I just gave water to a new healthy baby boy!"

 

[Runmyramble]

11 And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them.

The passage above....may be pertinent for understanding for some...

And it beggs the question..
Is the Seal of your faith a physical sign?
Or A Spiritual sign?

Recall things that are unseen are eternal

Is the pledge for a clear conscience before God your water Baptism

Or Christ's Baptism

God is God
And all answer begin with God and end with God.

In Ephesian 1:13.....
The SPIRIT IS GIVEN TO BELIEVER WHO TRUSTED AS A PLEDGE...

SO I BELIEVE MANY POINTS HAVE BEEN MADE THAT EXPRESS THE BAPTISM IS through the Spirit....working the word

Now one has to make up their mind....to open it and explore truth...not to be limited to a box....For if you limit your understanding to a box..I suppose so shall your life be...

 

[Runmyramble]

The poster stated he meant Mark 16:16. That was clear from his posts as well.

It was not clear..lol..but if you insist...that me tapping Matthew and getting another passage is clear..then we must redefine the definition...

Niether here now there admit your mistake or not, the truth will remain truth...

 

[Mungo]

You simply deny the truth of the scriptures.

Only people who believe are baptized.

Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?”
Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.”
Acts 8:36-37

Infant baptism is false doctrine.

We are saved when we believe. —


Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

• lest they should believe and be saved.

There are three baptisms. We are baptized into Christ by the Spirit when we believe.


This is when we are born again; saved, regenerated


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16


And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; Mark 16:15-16

Here is the evidence of a believer;

• And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;

Casting out demons and speaking in tongues are signs that are evidence of a true believer.

You assume that water baptism is what Jesus is referring to here.

Being baptized into Christ by the Spirit, when we believe is when we are saved; born again, regenerated.


For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:13


The New Birth, being born again, comes by the Spirit when we believe.

Afterward, if we truly believe, then we are baptized in water by a person.

Then we can be baptized by Jesus with the Spirit.

1. Baptized by the Spirit into Christ; born again, regeneration
2. Baptized by man in water if we have believed; full immersion
3. Baptized by Jesus with the Holy Spirit; Receive Power

Here are the 3 corresponding scriptures:

1. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:13
2. for John truly baptized with water,
3. but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” Acts 1:5

Here are the three baptisms as typified in the Old Testament —


Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 1 Corinthians 10:1-2

1. all were baptized into Moses: Spirit baptized into Christ
2. in the cloud: Jesus baptized with the Spirit
3. and in the sea: man baptized with water

JLB

I'm not denying any scripture
There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, (Eph 4: 4-6).

Ref Lk 8:12. That doe not say ONLY believe. Belief is the first step.
Some Protestants have this habit of seeing the word only in scripture when it is not there.
It's the same with John 3:16

Jesus said "He who believes and is baptized will be saved"
I believe scripture.

Peter wrote Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you
I believe scripture.

In Mk 16:16 Jesus lays out what we might call the basic methodology for salvation.
“Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.”
In these words Jesus sets out the basic methodology our initial justification (salvation)
preach the gospel; believe the gospel; be baptised.

We can see these three steps in the Acts of the Apostles.

At Pentecost (Acts 2:14-40)
But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words……Jesus of Nazareth, … you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death….Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ…. [preach]

Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?” [believe]

Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins…..Then those who gladly received his word were baptized [be baptised]

Philip in Samaria (Acts 8:5-12)
Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria and preached Christ to them. [preach]
But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, [believe]
both men and women were baptized. [be baptised]

You can see exactly the same pattern with:
Philip with the Ethiopian (Acts 8:26-38)
Cornelius (Acts 10:34-48)
Lydia (Acts 16:13-15)
The Jailer (Acts 16:30-33)
12 men at Ephesus (Acts 19:1-5)

 

[Walpole]

It was not clear..lol..but if you insist...that me tapping Matthew and getting another passage is clear..then we must redefine the definition...

Niether here now there admit your mistake or not, the truth will remain truth...

If you had been following the thread, which is about baptism, it was clear, as Mark 16:16 is the basis for his argument...

What is The Baptism that saves us now?

Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born anew,[footnote says or from above I'm going to use from above] he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicode′mus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”...

christianforums.net

What is The Baptism that saves us now?

The water that Jesus promised to give is "living water" - see verse 10 The drinking of regular water is life, this too is living water for we cannot live without Drinking the baptismal water as Christ command completes the final crucial step of eternal living. Hear Christ who says you must...

christianforums.net

He corrected his mistype...

What is The Baptism that saves us now?

You are ignoring post #138 and #143 You are also ignoring the words of Jesus "He who believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mk 16:16) I'm not ignoring anything. Do you understand there are three different baptizms? Do you understand that a person must first believe and be saved in order...

christianforums.net

 

[Free]

I just see it in a different manner that you.
If they are not born of water, mom, they won't need a second birth.

It isn't a matter of seeing it differently. Like I said, you are not understanding the specific point I was addressing.

 

[Runmyramble]

If you had been following the thread, which is about baptism, it was clear, as Mark 16:16 is the basis for his argument...

What is The Baptism that saves us now?

Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born anew,[footnote says or from above I'm going to use from above] he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicode′mus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”...

christianforums.net

What is The Baptism that saves us now?

The water that Jesus promised to give is "living water" - see verse 10 The drinking of regular water is life, this too is living water for we cannot live without Drinking the baptismal water as Christ command completes the final crucial step of eternal living. Hear Christ who says you must...

christianforums.net

He corrected his mistype...

What is The Baptism that saves us now?

You are ignoring post #138 and #143 You are also ignoring the words of Jesus "He who believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mk 16:16) I'm not ignoring anything. Do you understand there are three different baptizms? Do you understand that a person must first believe and be saved in order...

christianforums.net

You win

 

[Cnkw3]

Further, I understand you cling to the dogma that water baptism saves. I disagree with that dogma, and I do not believe the scripture supports that idea. Eph. 2:5 clearly states "even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)." It does not say exactly when this event happened. It might be assumed to happen during water baptism, or it might be assumed to happen while the gospel is being preached.

A couple of points that I think are important.
It is stated above that the event of “made us alive together with Christ” cannot be clearly defined at what point this takes place, but this is not correct. If you will turn to the book of Colossians Paul specifically states at what point in time a person is “made alive”.
Col 2: 11-13 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses.

This is all one thought and it is about water baptism (buried with him) and what it does for us. It is the circumcision made without hands. Why, because it is the point that our sins are removed. Acts 2:38, 22:16 Rom 6:17,18
It is also the point that we are “quickened” or made alive/born again (they mean the same) WITH HIM. These people were not “quickened” until AFTER baptism. So you see that Paul clearly defined the exact point in time that this being made alive with Christ” happens and it is at the point of water baptism. We know its water because just like in Rom 6 he describes it as a “burial”.
Also…..How many times were the Ephesians baptized in water? Paul is writing in Ephesians to a group that had been baptized twice because they didnt do it right the first time. Why do that if there is no efficacy to it?

It is obvious that Philip's concern was that the Eunuch believed the gospel he preached to him before baptizing him. Believing the gospel is the faith that justifies, and therefore the Eunuch believed and was saved prior to his baptism.

One more...
Is just “believing the gospel the faith that justifies”?
The faith that justifies can be found clearly explained in Gal 3….
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Isn’t this a true statement? Of course it is, BUT he is not done, the thought continues….
Gal 3; 27-29 For (gar,means because of)as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
The faith that saves or justifies is clearly defined here by Paul as the faith that is obedient in baptism. You have not “put on Christ” until AFTER baptism. This is clearly stated. It is not just some mental exercise that justifies a person. If you want your sins removed, if you want to be made alive, quickened, then one must be immersed in water in order for that to happen. You are not even an heir to the promise of Abraham without water baptism according to the clear teaching of Paul.