What is the work of the builder that will burn?

[Sparkey]

Where is the fire in your analogy?

JLB

An analogy, by its very nature, lines up with some things but not in all things. If it in fact was aligned in all things there would be no difference and it would NOT be analogous.

When you ask, "Where's the fire?" I can only reply that you already know that ALL THINGS shall pass away, all things that is, except for His Word which shall never pass away. We have the personal assurance of Jesus Himself for this. And we both know how it will come to pass. It will come to pass in the 2 Peter 3:12 way.

...because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!

The correct response to your question, "Where's the fire," is simply "It's coming. Don't worry. We have God's Word on it." But when I look at the 2 Peter passage my inquisitive mind immediately is captured by the phrase preceding, "hasten the Day of the Lord". Now THAT is worth discussing. It would be off-topic and a side track but my thinking about how we can help to "hasten" or quicken the Day of His coming, would be to begin to understand that we are both on the same side; if the GOD of PEACE chooses to show one facet of His truth to you, who is His possession, and another aspect of HIS TRUTH to me, also His Possession? What is that to me? It's okay for God to do that, isn't it? How could we contribute to the "Precious Stone" if there were not multiple ways to reflect the light? The truth?

With that said, kindly do me the favor and reply if you like, mindfully, and comment in such a manner as is my due, so that I may be edified by your instruction. I will try to return in kind. Or we can just drop this side-track here and now. Or you can, of course, insist again or try contradicting what I've tried to express in kindness and that will be that.

Cordially,
!SparrowHawke

 

[Sparkey]

Here, by the way, is another example of "works" that will be burned away. If I were given some money and let's say that I thanked God for it (giving thanks could be considered a work) but I put it to work advertising against my favorite pet peeve which was a rather shallow opposition to some doctrine or other? And what if I offended many? How do we control our tongue? It is an unruly evil. Those works will perish.

It is according to the true word, as given to Solomon, the King of Peace: "If a snake bites before it is charmed, the charmer receives no fee."

And again:

If any man's work is burned, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, but as through fire. ...

I am speaking to myself. Pray that I heed the wisdom that is mine.

 

[JLB]

An analogy, by its very nature, lines up with some things but not in all things. If it in fact was aligned in all things there would be no difference and it would NOT be analogous.

When you ask, "Where's the fire?" I can only reply that you already know that ALL THINGS shall pass away, all things that is, except for His Word which shall never pass away. We have the personal assurance of Jesus Himself for this. And we both know how it will come to pass. It will come to pass in the 2 Peter 3:12 way.



The correct response to your question, "Where's the fire," is simply "It's coming. Don't worry. We have God's Word on it." But when I look at the 2 Peter passage my inquisitive mind immediately is captured by the phrase preceding, "hasten the Day of the Lord". Now THAT is worth discussing. It would be off-topic and a side track but my thinking about how we can help to "hasten" or quicken the Day of His coming, would be to begin to understand that we are both on the same side; if the GOD of PEACE chooses to show one facet of His truth to you, who is His possession, and another aspect of HIS TRUTH to me, also His Possession? What is that to me? It's okay for God to do that, isn't it? How could we contribute to the "Precious Stone" if there were not multiple ways to reflect the light? The truth?

With that said, kindly do me the favor and reply if you like, mindfully, and comment in such a manner as is my due, so that I may be edified by your instruction. I will try to return in kind. Or we can just drop this side-track here and now. Or you can, of course, insist again or try contradicting what I've tried to express in kindness and that will be that.

Cordially,
!SparrowHawke

I asked you where the fire was in your story, not when the fire was coming.

You seemed very adamant about pointing out to me about claiming things that the word does not say, and used your story to do so.

Ok brother, Thank you.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Philippians 2:16 holding fast to the word of life, for a source of pride to me in the day of Christ, that I did not run in vain or labor in vain.
​

Hmm... Did you catch that. Paul DID NOT run or labor in vain. I wonder how he knows he didn't? Lucky guess?

On the Day of Christ the condition that must be met for Paul to have not run or labor in vain is that these Philippians continue to hold fast the word of life to the end. If it was impossible and beyond consideration that they might not hold fast the word of life to the very end there would be no need for Paul to even bring it up. It would go without saying.

Since we see these kinds of repeated warnings in the Bible for believers to continue in that which they started out in it's obviously a possibility that they may not, and if they don't the worker who labored among them will have no reward of exultation for work that survives the fires of the Day of Judgment.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Here, by the way, is another example of "works" that will be burned away. If I were given some money and let's say that I thanked God for it (giving thanks could be considered a work) but I put it to work advertising against my favorite pet peeve which was a rather shallow opposition to some doctrine or other? And what if I offended many? How do we control our tongue? It is an unruly evil. Those works will perish.
I am speaking to myself. Pray that I heed the wisdom that is mine.

As true as this is in regard to losing praise for good deeds done in this age, what does this have to do with the reward of the one who led you to Christ? The passage is about the worker outside of you who labors and whether he loses his reward, or not.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Here, by the way, is another example of "works" that will be burned away. If I were given some money and let's say that I thanked God for it (giving thanks could be considered a work) but I put it to work advertising against my favorite pet peeve which was a rather shallow opposition to some doctrine or other? And what if I offended many? How do we control our tongue? It is an unruly evil. Those works will perish.
I am speaking to myself. Pray that I heed the wisdom that is mine.

As true as this is in regard to losing praise for good deeds done in this age, what does this have to do with the reward of the one who led you to Christ? The passage is about the worker outside of you who labors and whether he loses his reward, or not.

 

[chessman]

That's the point of this burning, this purging of a presently polluted kingdom of God--to cleanse the kingdom of people who don't belong there.

Only if you assume it's people that Paul meant are burned up and not self-righteous/prideful attitudes (works and/or labors done without pure gold/silver/stones). You realize that pride in anything other than Jesus doesn't last, right? Paul says that it's;1) God's work to cause the people to belong there and 2) Paul's work to go from gentile region to region as an apostle and 3) Apollos work to minister to them when he leaves. There's three job descriptions here. Only one of which lasts forever.

It seems more evidence that Paul means that the things that get burned up are the works done not the people. Which is probably why he says it's the works that get burned up, not the people.

That's why I said in the beginning of this thread that we don't have to settle the OSAS/non-OSAS argument to discuss the separate fact that Christ will purge his kingdom of false people. Whether they 'really' ever believed to begin with, or not is another issue.

If you wanted to discuss the separate "fact" that Christ will purge his kingdom of false people, then why bring up 1 Cor 3 (LEB)?

6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing it to grow. 7 So then, neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who is causing it to grow.
​

Are you suggesting that God is cause false people to grow into His Kingdom?

 

[follower]

point of order. money spent on anything to do something as if it is a work of Yhvh is simple - it is burned up. if it is even thought of as if the money belongs to the one holding it, then it is not Yhvh's. (everything is Yhvh's).
for the money to effect a treasure in heaven that cannot wear out and moth and thief cannot destroy,
the money has to be given without any thought of self-consciousness/self-ownership about it to someone else or in an offering like the widow gave her complete and total life savings/sustenance (trusting Yhvh to provide her needs that day and every day).

just saw, just now, that last sentence, almost accidentally. (false people .... His Kingdom)....
Yhvh has sent men to preach /proclaim/ warn people about what is false. these men Yhvh sends are received/accepted only by those who turn away from / forsake/ repent of their sin. these men are not accepted by the vast majority of religious people on earth(multitudes, i think is the word used in the book of Revelation, particularly in the (current) end times)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Are you suggesting that God is cause false people to grow into His Kingdom?

He allows it...

"38 ...and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one; 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels. 40 "So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. 41 "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. " (Matthew 13: NASB)

The building and the planting that won't survive the coming Judgment that you are sure is not happening in God's kingdom is indeed happening. Or does your doctrine have a way for this passage, also, to not mean what it plainly says?

 

[chessman]

So scripture is now "extra-biblical"?

JLB

No. The Bible is not extra-biblical. Obviuosly. Nor is that what I said. Do you honestly think that's what I said or are you just being intentionally misrepresentative?

Sometimes Bible commentators like yourself (or myself) think their interpretations of a passage is the Bible's intended interpretation, when it's not. I quoted your commentary and pointed out that it is merely your commentary, not what the verse actually says. And we now see how you reacted.

Please show this Forum where God got involved in the "increase" of this plant here in verse 13 of Luke Chapter 8.

JLB

The Parable of the Sower Interpreted
11 Now the parable means this: the seed is the word of God, ... [God's first involvement]
6 And other seed fell on the rock, and when it came up, it withered [Mark 4:6 sun scorched] because it did not have moisture.

So here God's involvement is in providing moisture (The Holy Spirit) and the sunlight (Jesus Christ). Does this answer your question?

But as for how this parable helps answer the OP question:
First, Luke 8 is NOT the OP Scripture. Second Luke 8 is a historic record of a broader message, not a single verse (13). No serious student would just read verse 13. In fact it's recorded in all three synoptic Gospels, interpreted in all three and it's Jesus' first parable and He even uses it to tell us the purpose of all His future parables. So it's way more than verse 13.

As I said, you have no proof whether Paul had this parable in mind or not. I doubt he did. There's much evidence he didn't. But that's not to say there's any conflict between Luke 8 and 1 Cor 3. Paul was Saul and not even around when Jesus spoke it, though he had access to some that did hear it. Plus, For example, the "plant" in verse 8:13 withered and dried up on Earth, it doesn't get burned up at the final Judgment as Paul's timeframe means. Plus, as Paul points out, God is the one causing the growth and Paul is the servant to God whereas the parable simply says seeds were sown. Etc.

Third Luke 8 is a parable spoken to a mixed crowd of Pharisees, disciples and others that were simply following Him for his miracles. (And likely Jesus' brothers and mother heard this 1st parable as well. There trying to talk Him into coming home.) it's intentionally illusionary. Therefore, it's not so much the best place to determine Paul's meaning of what gets burned up in his 1st letter to the Corinthians.

But to answer your question as best I can, I pointed out my interpretation of the sun and the moisture (God's part) and the Bible points out the seed is God's Word.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Only if you assume it's people that Paul meant are burned up and not self-righteous/prideful attitudes (works and/or labors done without pure gold/silver/stones). You realize that pride in anything other than Jesus doesn't last, right? Paul says that it's;1) God's work to cause the people to belong there and 2) Paul's work to go from gentile region to region as an apostle and 3) Apollos work to minister to them when he leaves. There's three job descriptions here. Only one of which lasts forever.

It seems more evidence that Paul means that the things that get burned up are the works done not the people. Which is probably why he says it's the works that get burned up, not the people.

But haven't you already acknowledged that what gets built are people into the kingdom? And the passage says that if what gets built survives the coming fire the worker gets his reward.

"14 If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. " (1 Corinthians 3:14 NASB)

 

[JLB]

No. The Bible is not extra-biblical. Obviuosly. Nor is that what I said.


First, Luke 8 is NOT the OP Scripture. Second Luke 8 is a historic record of a broader message, not a single verse (13). No serious student would just read verse 13. In fact it's recorded in all three synoptic Gospels, interpreted in all three and it's Jesus' first parable and He even uses it to tell us the purpose of all His future parables. So it's way more than verse 13.

As I said, you have no proof whether Paul had this parable in mind or not. I doubt he did. There's much evidence he didn't. But that's not to say there's any conflict between Luke 8 and 1 Cor 3. Paul was Saul and not even around when Jesus spoke it, though he had access to some that did hear it. Plus, For example, the "plant" in verse 8:13 withered and dried up on Earth, it doesn't get burned up at the final Judgment as Paul's timeframe means. Plus, as Paul points out, God is the one causing the growth and Paul is the servant to God whereas the parable simply says seeds were sown. Etc.

Third Luke 8 is a parable spoken to a mixed crowd of Pharisees, disciples and others that were simply following Him for his miracles. (And likely Jesus' brothers and mother heard this 1st parable as well. There trying to talk Him into coming home.) it's intentionally illusionary. Therefore, it's not so much the best place to determine Paul's meaning of what gets burned up in his 1st letter to the Corinthians.

But to answer your question as best I can, I pointed out my interpretation of the sun and the moisture (God's part) and the Bible points out the seed is God's Word.

The parable - Luke
Some fell on rock; and as soon as it sprang up, it withered away because it lacked moisture. Luke 8:6

The interpretation-
But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13


The parable - Mark
5 Some fell on stony ground, where it did not have much earth; and immediately it sprang up because it had no depth of earth. Mark 4:5

The interpretation-
16 These likewise are the ones sown on stony ground who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with gladness; 17 and they have no root in themselves, and so endure only for a time. Afterward, when tribulation or persecution arises for the word's sake, immediately they stumble. Mark 4:16-17


The parable - Matthew
5 Some fell on stony places, where they did not have much earth; and they immediately sprang up because they had no depth of earth. Matthew 13:5

The interpretation-
20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. Matthew 13:20-21



In all three versions of this parable, the seed springs up into a plant that grows for a while.

The increase of growth in this plant is from God.


God gives the increase, until they fall away because of persecution.

They stopped believing and fell away.

If they stopped believing, then they became an unbeliever.



JLB

 

[chessman]

But haven't you already acknowledged that what gets built are people into the kingdom? And the passage says that if what gets built survives the coming fire the worker gets his reward.

"14 If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. " (1 Corinthians 3:14 NASB)

Let's say John Smith was being convicted of his many sins by God one Monday evening about 7pm riding down the road. He really doesn't know why or what to do about it. He sees a huge billboard church sign on the left; "Your Best Life Now Church, 2 Miles Ahead, on your left".

And then he sees a small church on the right. No sign, just a small wooden white building that needs painting with one old Chevy Impala parked at the back in the grass. He picks the one on the right, pulls in and finds minister Apollos getting in his Chevy to go home. Pastor Apollos introduces himself and asks John if he can help him. John explains why he's there and Apollos explains the Gospel to John, prays with him and John repents and is saved right there in the parking lot. John's been added to the Kingdom via Apollos's work as a minister. John remains and Apollos' work will be rewarded.

Let's say Jane Doe is driving down the same road that same evening feeling that same Holy Spirit convicting her. Yet she chooses the Best Life Now church. She pulls into the fenced property there, is 'greeted' by a volunteer security guard at what looks like an entrance to a parking lot to a mall. There's only one car there and it's a BMW. Jane asks if she can speak with the pastor. The guard says no, it's Senior Pastor Joel's day off and you'll need to make an appointment with his administrative assistant tomorrow. She says okay, I needed to talk with him about getting saved. The guard shares the Gospel with Jane and she's saved(added to the building). As she drives off Pastor Joel pulls up with Assistant Pastor Bob driving him to his BMW after playing golf all day. Pastor Joel waves to Jane as she drives away saved.

Pastor Joel's works of raising his hand to wave at Jane and pastoring his church that had a security guard so he can drive a BMW and play golf are 'burned up' as straw. Jane (and Joel) both survive however. Why? Cause it's God causing the increase.

 

[follower]

(side note/footnote/ ) Apollos (from Scripture) would never ever be caught in a position like today's 'pastors'.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Let's say John Smith was being convicted of his many sins by God one Monday evening about 7pm riding down the road. He really doesn't know why or what to do about it. He sees a huge billboard church sign on the left; "Your Best Life Now Church, 2 Miles Ahead, on your left".

And then he sees a small church on the right. No sign, just a small wooden white building that needs painting with one old Chevy Impala parked at the back in the grass. He picks the one on the right, pulls in and finds minister Apollos getting in his Chevy to go home. Pastor Apollos introduces himself and asks John if he can help him. John explains why he's there and Apollos explains the Gospel to John, prays with him and John repents and is saved right there in the parking lot. John's been added to the Kingdom via Apollos's work as a minister. John remains and Apollos' work will be rewarded.

Let's say Jane Doe is driving down the same road that same evening feeling that same Holy Spirit convicting her. Yet she chooses the Best Life Now church. She pulls into the fenced property there, is 'greeted' by a volunteer security guard at what looks like an entrance to a parking lot to a mall. There's only one car there and it's a BMW. Jane asks if she can speak with the pastor. The guard says no, it's Senior Pastor Joel's day off and you'll need to make an appointment with his administrative assistant tomorrow. She says okay, I needed to talk with him about getting saved. The guard shares the Gospel with Jane and she's saved(added to the building). As she drives off Pastor Joel pulls up with Assistant Pastor Bob driving him to his BMW after playing golf all day. Pastor Joel waves to Jane as she drives away saved.

Pastor Joel's works of raising his hand to wave at Jane and pastoring his church that had a security guard so he can drive a BMW and play golf are 'burned up' as straw. Jane (and Joel) both survive however. Why? Cause it's God causing the increase.

Now for what Paul is talking about in the passage...

John Doe caves into his old desires of hanging out at the local house of ill-repute. He ignores God's loving correction about being with prostitutes until he finally tramples the blood with which he was sanctified to the point of no return. John Doe can not be in the crown of kingdom builder Apollos on the Day of Christ because John won't be there to be that for Apollos. Apollos will have labored in vain because John did not hold out the word of life to the very end. His place will be in the lake of fire outside of the New Jerusalem, the building and kingdom and household of God.

As for Joel, with his 4" tall gleaming teeth, assuming he's saved and endures to the very end, why wouldn't his kind and friendly wave be a source of 'atta boy' for him on the Day of Christ? But this is not the reward that the passage is speaking about. It's specifically talking about the reward for the worker who builds the kingdom and household of God up into that which will survive the coming fire of Judgment. If what he builds into the kingdom survives he gets his reward. If it is burned up--because the fires of Judgment show it to be false--he does not get a reward for his labor of building the household of God. His 'work' won't be there with him to be a crown of exultation for him.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

(side note/footnote/ ) Apollos (from Scripture) would never ever be caught in a position like today's 'pastors'.

Yeah, he sounds more like a Ford man to me.

 

[JLB]

Let's say John Smith was being convicted of his many sins by God one Monday evening about 7pm riding down the road. He really doesn't know why or what to do about it. He sees a huge billboard church sign on the left; "Your Best Life Now Church, 2 Miles Ahead, on your left".

And then he sees a small church on the right. No sign, just a small wooden white building that needs painting with one old Chevy Impala parked at the back in the grass. He picks the one on the right, pulls in and finds minister Apollos getting in his Chevy to go home. Pastor Apollos introduces himself and asks John if he can help him. John explains why he's there and Apollos explains the Gospel to John, prays with him and John repents and is saved right there in the parking lot. John's been added to the Kingdom via Apollos's work as a minister. John remains and Apollos' work will be rewarded.

Let's say Jane Doe is driving down the same road that same evening feeling that same Holy Spirit convicting her. Yet she chooses the Best Life Now church. She pulls into the fenced property there, is 'greeted' by a volunteer security guard at what looks like an entrance to a parking lot to a mall. There's only one car there and it's a BMW. Jane asks if she can speak with the pastor. The guard says no, it's Senior Pastor Joel's day off and you'll need to make an appointment with his administrative assistant tomorrow. She says okay, I needed to talk with him about getting saved. The guard shares the Gospel with Jane and she's saved(added to the building). As she drives off Pastor Joel pulls up with Assistant Pastor Bob driving him to his BMW after playing golf all day. Pastor Joel waves to Jane as she drives away saved.

Pastor Joel's works of raising his hand to wave at Jane and pastoring his church that had a security guard so he can drive a BMW and play golf are 'burned up' as straw. Jane (and Joel) both survive however. Why? Cause it's God causing the increase.

Again, this is right out of the Jethro Bodine school of ministry online school of cyphering.

I have to be honest with you, Chessman, at this point.

I'm not trying to be rude or demeaning, but it looks to me like, you haven't even read the chapter in his school of ministry that deals with this subject, or completed any of the home work that is associated with part of the course.

I could be wrong, but that is the way it appears.

There I said it.

If I'm wrong, I apologize, as it wasn't my intent to accuse you of anything.


Yours Truly, JLB

 

[follower]

Yeah, he sounds more like a Ford man to me.

... he was a little before that...
more like horse and buggy (or mule , donkey?)... and mainly - no salary, no transportation allowance budget overrun, no 'suit and tie' get ups, no glass cathedral.... etc etc etc.... (i.e. pastor in Scripture was entirely different from the get go than it is today (rare exceptions existing) ) ... ... ..

 

[chessman]

The theological problems with your assumptions:

John Doe can not be in the crown of kingdom builder Apollos on the Day of Christ because John won't be there to be that for Apollos. Apollos will have labored in vain because John did not hold out the word of life to the very end.

I forgot to mention. John was an adulterer when he pulled in to Apollos' church. It was God's work to forgive him of that sin, not Apollos'. Apollos was nothing relative to the salvation work. It's your assumption that John will not be there. But since you wanted to limit the discussion to just the works, not so much OSAS it's not important.

How does John's later adultery affect Apollos' works? I can't become vain. Apollos' work didn't change, John did. Did God's work become vain. Gotcha


Plus, I thought you agreed that God caused the increase. So John's salvation was God's work, not Apollos'.

As for Joel, with his 4" tall gleaming teeth, assuming he's saved and endures to the very end, why wouldn't his kind and friendly wave be a source of 'atta boy' for him on the Day of Christ?

because it was done in vain. Jane was driving away and he didn't minister to her. Even though God used his church to cause the increase (Jane)

 

[chessman]

but it looks to me like, you haven't even read the chapter in his school of ministry that deals with this subject, or completed any of the home work that is associated with part of the course.

I could be wrong, but that is the way it appears.

That's because you refuse to consider these two facts: 1) that Paul says it's the works (not people) that are burned up and 2) It was God's work that saved John and Jane.