What is the work of the builder that will burn?

[for_his_glory]

Well, we can look at in two ways:

1) The worker loses the potential reward of them as his crown of glory and exultation if they do not respond to the message at all. Or, 2) they do respond to the message, but do not continue in the message so as to be able to pass safely through the coming Judgment and be a crown of glory and exultation for the worker on the other side of the fire. Which is what I think Paul is saying in Philippians 2:14-16 NASB ...

"14 Do all things without grumbling or disputing; 15 so that you will prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you appear as lights in the world, 16 holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I will have reason to glory because I did not run in vain nor toil in vain."

The point being, if they don't hold fast the word of life, continuing to the very end in what they've heard, and presently obey (Philippians 2:12 NASB), they will not make it through the coming Judgment and Paul will have no reason because of their absence in the kingdom to glory in them, and his labor in trying to bring them to the kingdom will have been in vain.

But, like I say, I'm not really interested in turning this into a OSAS/non-OSAS thread. It will get closed down if we do that. I honestly just want to focus on what the work is that gets burned up in 1 Corinthians 3:6-15 NASB, with only a few references to the OSAS argument so as not to make that the focus of the thread.



I do believe that the one who has been entrusted with much (gifting, opportunity, knowledge, etc.) is expected to return much, but I don't think that's the thrust of the passage.



Yes, his fruitful labor. But the worker has nothing to show for his unfruitful labor. That's exactly the point Paul wants to make to these Corinthians who don't trust him and his ministry. His point is, what value is to me, Paul, personally to build you up with a ministry and message into that which will not survive the coming Judgment and which will rob me of my crown of joy and exultation since you will not be there to be that for me?


Because God is just. His Word is sent to both "destroy and to overthrow, To build and to plant" (Jeremiah 1:10 NASB). God's justice is that he let's those he knows will perish in the Judgment know exactly why they will perish in the Judgment.


Soitenly (nuk, nuk, nuk, nuk).

4 "I am sending you to them who are stubborn and obstinate children, and you shall say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD.' 5 "As for them, whether they listen or not-for they are a rebellious house -they will know that aprophet has been among them. 6 "And you, son of man, neither fear them nor fear their words,though thistles and thorns are with you and you sit on scorpions; neither fear their words nor be dismayed at their presence, for they are a rebellious house." (Ezekiel 2:4-6 NASB)

"4 Then He said to me, "Son of man, go to the house of Israel and speak with My words to them. 5 "For you are not being sent to a people of unintelligible speech or difficult language, but to the house of Israel, 6 nor to many peoples of unintelligible speech or difficult language, whose words you cannot understand. But I have sent you to them who should listen to you; 7 yet the house of Israel will not be willing to listen to you, since they are not willing to listen to Me. Surely the whole house of Israel is stubborn and obstinate ." (Ezekiel 3:4-7 NASB)

I'm not talking about OSAS. You keep saying, pass safely through the coming Judgment and on the other side of the fire. What is this judgement and fire?

Do you mean the judgement seat of Christ, as all who have received Jesus as Lord and Savior through the Spiritual rebirth are already the Bride of Christ and will stand before Him to give an account of themselves.
2Corinthians 5:10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Luke 12: 41-48 is the parable of the faithful steward as when Christ does return we want to be found being that good and faithful servant that has taught His word to those who have ears to hear and will accept Jesus as Lord and Savior. Our crown of glory is in that of being faithful with what God has equipped us with through His Holy Spirit giving us power and authority to go out into the world preaching His kingdom to others.

Thank you for the scriptures in Ezekiel as that explains what you were saying about God sending him out to a nation that would not listen.

 

[JLB]

How can one lose a reward that was never there to begin with. You make it sound like God has some big check list of all the rewards each individual should receive and then checks off the ones we miss if that one person doesn't accept the Lord after we witness Christ to them. The worker has everything to show for his faithful labor as being an obedient servant of God. Why would God send Ezekiel purposely to a people that God already told him they would not listen. Can you show me the scripture for this so I can read and learn from it.

It's not about witnessing for Christ, its about

If I took a toy and my young son and sent them both to the bedroom for a "time out," my son may be amused at the fact that the toy was "in trouble" too - but if I heard crying from the bedroom would you INSIST that the toy was a live human being because I said, "there will be crying tomorrow too if you don't behave" ??

Toys don't cry.
And you are right, things don't wail.

We simply can not make the Bible say what it doesn't say. By the way, I'm not talking about OSAS at all. I can't figure out why anyone would think I was. I am not given that task.


DISCLAIMER
The above story about toys and young goys was given as example only. It was not used to suggest any association between "things that offend" and toys, nor any between "those who practice lawlessness" and my young son, and further no direct association between crying and wailing and/or gnashing was intended. Please be careful when you quote me. I don't like it when I am misquoted. I doubt that God does either. It is easy enough to check by asking for MY meaning before putting words in my mouth, not saying that you would presume to do that but just saying, "Don't do it." IN FACT, those who ignore this caution will do so at their peril. They could lose property (should a judge in a court of law order it) and there will be wailing and sobbing and maybe some crying. And just to be clear, the property that was lost would NOT be giving the utterance nor doing the gnashing in my fictional example. Even though it is fiction - we all know that things don't gnash. Just to be clear, that is. Enough with the "THINGS must be human because I heard wailing and gnashing" argument, it doesn't fly. The only things that I can think of that do fly would be plane things. But even they don't wail and neither do they gnash. We ALL know this, even you.

Where is the fire in your analogy?

If give us a story about fire with your son passing through the fire, then you will have presented something that won't need a disclaimer.


JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

It's not about witnessing for Christ, its about

It's about?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

No, I know God judges His own work.

I see you've read Jeremiah? How about this:

Jeremiah 3:12, 14-18 Go, and proclaim these words toward the north, and say,‘Return, apostate Israel,’ declares Yahweh.‘I will not cause my anger to fall on you. For I am loyal,’ declares Yahweh.‘I will not be angry forever.

“Return, apostate children,” declares Yahweh. “For I am your master, and I will take you one from a city and two from a clan, and I will bring you to Zion.

Then I will give you shepherds after my own heart and they will feed you knowledge and insight.

And it will be when you have multiplied and become fruitful in the land in those days,” declares Yahweh, “they will no longer say, ‘The ark of the covenant of Yahweh.’ And it will not come to mind, nor will they remember it, nor will they miss it, nor will it be made again.

At that time they will call Jerusalem ‘The Throne of Yahweh,’ and all the nations will be gathered to it, to the name of Yahweh, to Jerusalem, and they will no longer go after the stubbornness of their evil heart.​

Sounds like God has a plan to me. One that includes His rewards and judgment of His people and His Wrath for those that are not.

Are you saying that the people of Israel that were condemned for their sins and dealt with accordingly are somehow the same people who make up the Israel that God has compassion on and brings back to himself at the end of time? I think it's obvious that the branches that are grafted back into the root is symbolic of Israel overall, and that it is a later generation of Israelites that accept Jesus as the Messiah and are grafted back into the root.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Romans14:10; Corinthians 5:10 Since we are Christians all of our sins are forgiven.God will reward us for lives that we have lived on earth.We will have to give an account of ourselves.Part of this is answering for our sins we committed.Believers will be rewarded on how faithfully they served Christ 2 Timothy 2:5.

I honestly believe that the only sins God will bring up at the Judgment of the saints are the sins that did not get dealt with in this life (sins that don't determine if you'll be saved, or not, of course).

Any sin you commit now that you then thoroughly get taken care of through confession and repentance through the blood of Christ in this life will in no way be brought up at the Judgment. They are done, they are finished, they are thoroughly removed from your account. But that nagging little <fill in the blank> that you never quite got broken about as to get it under the blood, that is what God will bring up at the Judgment.

 

[Kathi]

I honestly believe that the only sins God will bring up at the Judgment of the saints are the sins that did not get dealt with in this life (sins that don't determine if you'll be saved, or not, of course).

Any sin you commit now that you then thoroughly get taken care of through confession and repentance through the blood of Christ in this life will in no way be brought up at the Judgment. They are done, they are finished, they are thoroughly removed from your account. But that nagging little <fill in the blank> that you never quite get broken about, that is what God will bring up at the Judgment.

Nice if that were the case but I doubt it.Of course we will not be condemned for our sins like unbelievers because we are believers.But the Bible says we will be accountable for what we did while in our earthly bodies and their will be consequences.I guess you will have to wait and find out if what you believe is true.I go with Scripture.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You keep saying, pass safely through the coming Judgment and on the other side of the fire. What is this judgement and fire?

This one:

31 "But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 "All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left. 34 "Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 'For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me;I was in prison, and you came to Me.' 37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38 'And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39 'When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' 40 "The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.' 41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.' 44 "Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?' 45 "Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' 46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
(Matthew 25:31-46 NASB)

41 "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 "Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.
(Matthew 13:41-43 NASB caps in original)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Nice if that were the case but I doubt it.Of course we will not be condemned for our sins like unbelievers because we are believers.But the Bible says we will be accountable for what we did while in our earthly bodies and their will be consequences.I guess you will have to wait and find out if what you believe is true.I go with Scripture.

Scripture doesn't say either way. But how can God bring up those sins which he has separated us from as far as the east is from the west? Do they get re-judged? That would not be very nice of him to bring up that which we have trusted him to forgive. I think what will need to be addressed is the sin we failed to deal with while in the body, but which does not condemn us to the lake of fire. The example of being a stumbling block to other believers you bring up is a good example. And, of course, for the damned, the sin being dealt with at the Judgment is in regard to their condemnation.

 

[for_his_glory]

This one:

31 "But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 "All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left. 34 "Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 'For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me;I was in prison, and you came to Me.' 37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38 'And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39 'When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' 40 "The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.' 41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.' 44 "Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?' 45 "Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' 46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
(Matthew 25:31-46 NASB)

41 "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 "Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.
(Matthew 13:41-43 NASB caps in original)

Thank you for explaining that as this is what a faithful and obedient servant needs to be found doing when Christ returns as all the works belong to the Lord as he works in us and through us to bring that light of Christ into the world.

 

[Kathi]

Scripture doesn't say either way. But how can God bring up those sins which he has separated us from as far as the east is from the west? Do they get re-judged? That would not be very nice of him to bring up that which we have trusted him to forgive. I think what will need to be addressed is the sin we failed to deal with while in the body, but which does not condemn us to the lake of fire. The example of being a stumbling block to other believers you bring up is a good example. And, of course, for the damned, the sin being dealt with at the Judgment is in regard to their condemnation.

There is only one judgement for the believers and the unbelivers.That is the Bema seat judgment for the belivers and the Great White throne judgment for the unbelivers.All those who are in the Bema seat judgment will go to heaven.All those in the Great White throne judgment will go to hell.No exceptions.

 

[chessman]

The scriptures themselves teach us that what gets built on the foundation of Christ (and the Apostles and Prophets) are believers--the church. This interpretation of 1 Corinthians 3 is entirely consistent with scripture:

Yes. I know. Then you go beyond what is taught by trying to make the case that Paul is teaching that it's people themselves that get burned up versus what Paul says get's burned up.

But your view cannot logically be correct since that would mean;
1. God's part (the actual growing part) that was the straw. Versus the servant's labor part.
2. Paul and others get more reward based on how many other people they place in the Kingdom. Which is God's work, not Paul's.

 

[JLB]

There is only one judgement for the believers and the unbelivers.That is the Bema seat judgment for the belivers and the Great White throne judgment for the unbelivers.All those who are in the Bema seat judgment will go to heaven.All those in the Great White throne judgment will go to hell.No exceptions.

Matthew 25 is the judgement seat of Christ.

Matthew 25 describes the servants of The Lord, those He is the Shepard of.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Yes. I know. Then you go beyond what is taught by trying to make the case that Paul is teaching that it's people themselves that get burned up versus what Paul says get's burned up.

But your view cannot logically be correct since that would mean;
1. God's part (the actual growing part) that was the straw. Versus the servant's labor part.
2. Paul and others get more reward based on how many other people they place in the Kingdom. Which is God's work, not Paul's.

6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase. 1 Corinthians 3:6

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13


God gave the increase up to the point where the person, STOPPED BELIEVING AND FELL AWAY...


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Yes. I know. Then you go beyond what is taught by trying to make the case that Paul is teaching that it's people themselves that get burned up versus what Paul says get's burned up.

But your view cannot logically be correct since that would mean;
1. God's part (the actual growing part) that was the straw. Versus the servant's labor part.
2. Paul and others get more reward based on how many other people they place in the Kingdom. Which is God's work, not Paul's.

"Are you not my work in the Lord?" (1 Corinthians 9:1 NASB)

"13 each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. " (1 Corinthians 3:13 NASB)

 

[chessman]

6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase. 1 Corinthians 3:6

I know. That's my point. God gave the increase.

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13


God gave the increase up to the point where the person, STOPPED BELIEVING AND FELL AWAY...


JLB

that's an extra-Biblical assumption (not well founded), for you; 1) have know idea whether Paul had Jesus' parable of the sower in mind or not and 2) even if he did, whether Jesus' parable of the rocky soil plants are meant to reflect plants (people) headed for Hell. After all, they grew from seed into plants (increase).

Again, God is the grower in Paul's 1 Cor 3. So if you think God is a loser of people, that's your choice. But it ain't Paul's point.

 

[chessman]

"Are you not my work in the Lord?" (1 Corinthians 9:1 NASB)

From Paul's point in Chapter three:

1 Corinthians 3:6-7 I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing it to grow. So then, neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who is causing it to grow. ​

 

[Jethro Bodine]

From Paul's point in Chapter three:

1 Corinthians 3:6-7 I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing it to grow. So then, neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who is causing it to grow. ​

Even in the world of OSAS, the person who doesn't 'really' believe when they profess Christ is still Paul's work. That's the point of this burning, this purging of a presently polluted kingdom of God--to cleanse the kingdom of people who don't belong there.

41 "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 13:41-42 NASB)

That's why I said in the beginning of this thread that we don't have to settle the OSAS/non-OSAS argument to discuss the separate fact that Christ will purge his kingdom of false people. Whether they 'really' ever believed to begin with, or not is another issue.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Again, God is the grower in Paul's 1 Cor 3. So if you think God is a loser of people, that's your choice. But it ain't Paul's point.

12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure. 14 Do all things without grumbling or disputing; 15 so that you will prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you appear as lights in the world, 16 holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I will have reason to glory because I did not run in vain nor toil in vain."
(Philippians 2:12-16 NASB)

Paul says If they don't stop being obedient, holding out the word of life, they will be his reason to glory at the Judgment, but if they don't continue in the word of life he won't have reason to glory, and his labor will have been in vain.

 

[chessman]

Paul says If they stop being obedient, holding out the word of life, they will be his reason to glory at the Judgment, but if they don't continue in the word of life he won't have reason to glory, and his labor will have been in vain.

Paul says the same thing here as always and as in his letter to Corinth. It's God's pleasure to save people.

Philippians 2:13 For the one at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure, is God.
​

As I said. If Paul meant the works that get burned up are God's people, then God's pleasure is no good. Paul knows God's the grower in this letter too.

Philippians 2:17 But even if I am being poured out as a drink offering on the sacrifice and service of your faith, I rejoice and rejoice with all of you. ​

Paul's expecting all the Phillippian believers to be with him. That's why he's working for them. And Paul's work will not get burned up. They are his source of pride.

Philippians 2:16 holding fast to the word of life, for a source of pride to me in the day of Christ, that I did not run in vain or labor in vain.
​

Hmm... Did you catch that. Paul DID NOT run or labor in vain. I wonder how he knows he didn't? Lucky guess?

 

[JLB]

I know. That's my point. God gave the increase.

that's an extra-Biblical assumption (not well founded), for you; 1) have know idea whether Paul had Jesus' parable of the sower in mind or not and 2) even if he did, whether Jesus' parable of the rocky soil plants are meant to reflect plants (people) headed for Hell. After all, they grew from seed into plants (increase).

Again, God is the grower in Paul's 1 Cor 3. So if you think God is a loser of people, that's your choice. But it ain't Paul's point.

So scripture is now "extra-biblical"?


13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13


Please show this Forum where God got involved in the "increase" of this plant here in verse 13 of Luke Chapter 8.


Paul planted the seed... ?


When the plant sprouted from the seed and began to grow as it was watered?

Thats what I see as increase.

God can do everything in the whole world, even give His only Begotten Son for us to have all things that pertain to life and godliness, even give us His Spirit to lead us and guide us in our way, but He will not over rule a person's free will to choose to walk in the Spirit rather than walk in the flesh.


Tell us when the increase began here in verse 13, from your perception?



JLB