What is unconditional election, and is it biblical?

[rrowell]

Nah. The inevitable conclusion that you should arrive at with your supposed 'silver bullet' is that God is not able to save everyone.

So, you are left with an impotent God. One who simply is not able.

And you will excuse this impotent God on the ground of faulting the person.

Been there, done that. Moved on.

It is Gods will for ALL men to be saved, but it is fact that all men will not...

All men are called, but only those through hearing, believing, repenting, confessing Christ and being baptized doing and keeping the commands of Him, will be his "elect"

There is a silver bullet to Calvinism but it is also a silver bullet to your own understanding.

It is found in Romans 11:25-32 for any who can see it. Though most won't and can't because they are in fact predestined not to see it.

s

And to you my understanding is?

 

[smaller]

It is Gods will for ALL men to be saved, but it is fact that all men will not...

All men are called, but only those through hearing, believing, repenting, confessing Christ and being baptized doing and keeping the commands of Him, will be his "elect"

And to you my understanding is?

If you review my prior post you will see that I called your shot before you posted your response.

"And you will excuse this impotent God on the ground of faulting the person."

and voila. that is exactly what you did. funny huh?

I also stated that you might not be able to engage a genuine scriptural silver bullet to your advance called response.

and you didn't.

I can only say that some are predestined to not see it.

And you are perhaps an example of that.

I am content with predestination. One sees what they can see. Others don't and can't.

One who sees the validity of many positions is in fact predestined to see more things. They are predestined not to get caught up in ringed fences.

s

 

[BornAgain]

If you review my prior post you will see that I called your shot before you posted your response.

"And you will excuse this impotent God on the ground of faulting the person."

and voila. that is exactly what you did. funny huh?

I also stated that you might not be able to engage a genuine scriptural silver bullet to your advance called response.

and you didn't.

I can only say that some are predestined to not see it.

And you are perhaps an example of that.

I am content with predestination. One sees what they can see. Others don't and can't.

One who sees the validity of many positions is in fact predestined to see more things. They are predestined not to get caught up in ringed fences.

s

Several of your posts I have read by you which you happened to challenge with your plethora of knowledge from the doctrine's of men brought to mind some scripture I read the other day. You never mentioned reading the Bible, just Calvin and other books so I am not sure if you ever heard of Job 40 1, 14. Maybe you will relate to Job and how he learned to humble himself before God.

 

[smaller]

Several of your posts I have read by you which you happened to challenge with your plethora of knowledge from the doctrine's of men brought to mind some scripture I read the other day. You never mentioned reading the Bible, just Calvin and other books so I am not sure if you ever heard of Job 40 1, 14. Maybe you will relate to Job and how he learned to humble himself before God.

Whenever any of us discuss scripture, and yes, I have deep intimacy, the reality is that most often we are discussing our own reflections same.

There are many reflections to be had.

Some reflections are worth having and keeping. Some are dead ends.

That's the fun part of theology.

1 Corinthians 14:10
There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.

s

 

[BornAgain]

Whenever any of us discuss scripture, and yes, I have deep intimacy, the reality is that most often we are discussing our own reflections same.

There are many reflections to be had.

Some reflections are worth having and keeping. Some are dead ends.

That's the fun part of theology.

1 Corinthians 14:10
There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.

s

It is called dignity and grace. We can also represent our point without being haughty in spirit and there is a forum in Humor and Jokes if you want to have some fun instead of taunting the members on these threads who are discussing theology and are taking it a little more serious than you are by popping in and having fun with it.

 

[smaller]

It is called dignity and grace. We can also represent our point without beigg haughty in spirit and there is a forum in Humor and Jokes if you want to have some fun instead of taunting the members on these threads who are discussing theology and are taking it a little more serious than you are by popping in and having fun with it.

Well, you see, when I say convince me that you might not be saved, as that is your position, I am being sincere.

But you reflect defensively to that request.

Perhaps you are not as convinced that you might not be saved as you purport?

s

 

[dadof10]

Well, Calvinist TULIP advocates reject the thought "that we should simply relax". That's not the case.

Jesus put an emphasis on faith because the emphasis was misplaced on works. And faith is indeed necessary in the chain. Faith is also something that we are involved in. The idea of TULIP is not a disconnection, but actually a recognition that God is intensely involved in our very souls, changing them to become reliant on Him.

So faith is immensely important, every bit as important as regeneration, sanctification, justification, and yes, election, calling, predestination, and foreknowledge.

Jesus and Paul and Peter and James all pointed out, if we don't believe in Christ, then we have every reason to doubt we will be saved by God. That's what "faith" means: a belief in a person. When I tell a person, "I believe in you," I don't at all mean "I believe you exist." What I mean is, "I rely on you for doing what you have committed to, yourself."

Well put. I agree.

To see why, this would need a very different model, a Scriptural model of what's going on in evangelism. There're a couple of facets to this model, so here goes:

1. We're following after the One Who brought us to New Birth. John 3:8 states that the people born of the Spirit go where He leads, following Him when and where He pleases. So the Spirit leads us to where His priorities are, which are on saving His people, awakening them. We follow up with the Spirit's understanding handed to us through Christ Himself.

I might be misunderstanding you, here. You seem to be saying that the saved are to go out and "awaken" other saved people. What the Gospel is saying is that the saved are to go out and help turn unsaved people into saved people. To CONVERT from darkness to light, to CHANGE people's minds and hearts. This is what is contrary to the doctrine of UE, because the "saved" will be saved no matter what we do or don't do, and the lost will be lost no matter what, right?

2. We're finding lost members of our spiritual family. If you knew members of your family were lost, would you go out to help them, or would you wait, expecting they'd eventually get back home? Home is where your family members need to be. So you go out to bring the lost back into fellowship with their forever family. 1 Cor 9:23, but also much of 1 Cor 9, describe this fellowship in the gospel. Check on a stricter translation of the verse, though, it's not well-translated in say the ESV.

I see your point here, and if they ARE members of our family (the saved), and they stray (like the lost sheep in the Gospel), we should do everything possible to BRING THEM BACK. Again, I'm not talking about REverts, and neither is Jesus and the apostles. The main theme that runs throughout the NT is of conversion. The apostles are told to "go, making disciples of all nations". The apostles do just that and write about it. The books and letters are written primarily for EVANGELIZATION, "that you may come to believe". Why would they be COMMANDED to evangelize "to the LOST sheep of Israel" if the saved were saved "from the foundation of the world".

Further afield, we're a vital part of this ministry. Romans 10 puts us for practical purposes as necessary to spreading this message. It allows people who do rely on God to understand how much God is doing, and to embrace that Good News in factual form.

Yes, that is a good point. You can't stop believers from writing about Jesus and, looking at the Gospels from the UE point of view, I would expect writings like you see in Scripture. What I wouldn't expect to find, however, is ANY reference to conversion. I would expect to find MANY references in those early writings to the saved BEING LED BY THE SPIRIT INTO THE CHURCH, WITHOUT ANY HELP FROM THE APOSTLES. This is the essence of the UE message, that the Elect are saved and WE can do nothing about it. You just don't see this view in Scripture and from my POV, any reference to conversion by HUMANS flies directly in the face of UE theology.

3. We're doing what we're tasked to do. God tells us to go. Matthew 28:18-20 simply says to do it. "A man had two sons ... which did what his father wanted?". Indeed, if God compels us to "Go!", and God has such power over us as to change hearts, why would anyone object when we do exactly what the God of the Universe hands to us to do? There's no objection. It's so consistent as to be tautological.

That's exactly my point, the Gospels tell us to "go" and "convert". If they taught UE they would NOT say this because it's redundant and even sinful. God has already chosen which people are saved and lost. Who do we think we are going around trying to convert the damned, like we can change God's mind?

To bring this news to those deceived into believing it were different.

Why do WE have to "bring the news" to them if God has already chosen them to be saved? Again, it's quite presumptuous to think WE can have any EFFECT upon God's decision, and presumption is a sin, right?

God is the God of Truth, right? So there's a compelling factor in that God wants people to know the truth. And God is going to have the truth declared, even to people who shall not repent. Remember Pharaoh. Remember Jeremiah, Isaiah, Amos. God has sent prophet after prophet to people we both know would not repent, and God knew they didn't repent.

True, and if the NT ONLY said that I would have no problem with UE. A CHANGE OF HEART or REPENTANCE is inherent within the idea of "conversion".

So there's your real answer: God has more than an agenda to try to persuade people. God also intends to tell all the truth, so no one will have an excuse.

But part of His "agenda" IS to "persuade", or convert, correct?

You see what the problem is. If we're following the Spirit, then nothing can stand against what the Spirit is doing, certainly not those who may be damned. But if we're following the Spirit, we are already following enthusiastically the God of the Universe.

And you're telling me I should stop doing that?

No, you should keep doing that because you are helping to actually CONVERT, not simply telling the damned the "Truth" so they will have no excuse. You can be part of the CONVERSION PROCESS. Obviously "no one can come to the Father..." but you are doing something REAL.

Indeed, this following the God of the Universe is precisely what the early missionaries said they were doing! The Spirit was leading them: it wasn't their option where to go, it was the Spirit moving them.

Right, moving them to CONVERT, not merely inform the damned for the sake of fairness.

We're to spread the Gospel, and receive anyone who wants to hear more on the assumption that the Spirit is working in them. If they change, the Spirit changes people. If not, it means nothing to the truth of Christ. If they were changed for a time but not in spirit, then what good has this done for their salvation?

Scripture commands us to "go and make disciples". Certainly the Spirit is the one ultimately responsible for any change of heart, but that's what it is, a TRUE change. The person "accepts Jesus" and moves from death to life, truly from being damned to being saved. On the other hand if the same person, once TRULY SAVED, later rejects Christ and His Church, that person has gone from light and again into darkness.

The fact that we are called upon to convert and persuade people to have faith in Christ, debunks UE because nowhere in Scripture is it taught that the saved will be saved no matter what the apostles did, on the contrary, they were told by Jesus and Paul that evangelization was paramount to the message of Christ.

 

[savedbygrace57]

rr

It is Gods will for all men to become the "elect" the Church IS the
"elect

It is a lie to say that it is God's Will for all men to be the Elect, you must show scripture that states that.

In the mean time God chose His Elect in Christ before the foundation Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

You are perverting God's Word, not good !

 

[dadof10]

It is Gods will for ALL men to be saved, but it is fact that all men will not...

Or to put it another way, all men are PREDESTINED for salvation, but, because of their free will, they CHOOSE damnation.

 

[rrowell]

rr



It is a lie to say that it is God's Will for all men to be the Elect, you must show scripture that states that.

In the mean time God chose His Elect in Christ before the foundation Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

You are perverting God's Word, not good !

"us in him" and who are those"in him":

Romans 6:3 (KJV)
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Galatians 3:27 (KJV)
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

The Church was not an afterthought, it was by design before the foundation of the world, and when anyone puts on Christ, he adds them to his Church:

Acts 2:47 (KJV)
Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

And he is still adding them today, he is still in the process of electing and will be until he comes again.

 

[heymikey80]

I might be misunderstanding you, here. You seem to be saying that the saved are to go out and "awaken" other saved people. What the Gospel is saying is that the saved are to go out and help turn unsaved people into saved people. To CONVERT from darkness to light, to CHANGE people's minds and hearts. This is what is contrary to the doctrine of UE, because the "saved" will be saved no matter what we do or don't do, and the lost will be lost no matter what, right?

First: are you truly stating that evangelists are charged with causing change in people? Because the last time this happened the Church burned people who disagreed with them. Honestly, evangelists are not charged with changing hearts. They are to shine the light of reflected Glory, exposing the truth to the people around them. Those who are of the light are attracted to the light and come into the light. Those who are not, scurry into the darkness around them.

Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. 21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.” John 3:18-21

I see your point here, and if they ARE members of our family (the saved), and they stray (like the lost sheep in the Gospel), we should do everything possible to BRING THEM BACK.

No, God's family is more than that. Is it not true that "we are His offspring"? If that were solely and purely after conversion, then we'd have a problem.
The Son of Man came to seek and to save the LOST. Lk 19:10

I Again, I'm not talking about REverts, and neither is Jesus and the apostles.

The Son of Man came to seek and to save the LOST. Lk 19:10

I The main theme that runs throughout the NT is of conversion. The apostles are told to "go, making disciples of all nations". The apostles do just that and write about it. The books and letters are written primarily for EVANGELIZATION, "that you may come to believe". Why would they be COMMANDED to evangelize "to the LOST sheep of Israel" if the saved were saved "from the foundation of the world".

Should I keep saying it? The LOST were never Christians in the first place.

So why would they be considered "lost"?

Yes, that is a good point. You can't stop believers from writing about Jesus and, looking at the Gospels from the UE point of view, I would expect writings like you see in Scripture. What I wouldn't expect to find, however, is ANY reference to conversion.

I believe I've pointed it out, but I can point out other references like this.

... though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” Rom 9:11-12

And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. Rom 8:30

In fact the well-trod passage in 2 Peter also brings this up:
The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. 2 Pt 3:9

I would expect to find MANY references in those early writings to the saved BEING LED BY THE SPIRIT INTO THE CHURCH, WITHOUT ANY HELP FROM THE APOSTLES. This is the essence of the UE message, that the Elect are saved and WE can do nothing about it. You just don't see this view in Scripture and from my POV, any reference to conversion by HUMANS flies directly in the face of UE theology.

I don't see why you think there should be many references to something the Scripture said the God of the Universe wouldn't typically do such a thing.

Still, those instances exist where it's quite clear, the Spirit of God is leading Apostles directly to those the Spirit of God is going to convert.

Acts 8:26ff comes to mind. Acts 9 comes to mind. Acts 10. Acts 11:21 particularly calling out the conversion of Gentiles in Antioch as God-caused. Acts 13:2. Acts 13:4. Acts 14:27. Acts 16:6-7. Acts 16:9-10. Acts 19:21.

That's exactly my point, the Gospels tell us to "go" and "convert". If they taught UE they would NOT say this because it's redundant and even sinful. God has already chosen which people are saved and lost. Who do we think we are going around trying to convert the damned, like we can change God's mind?

Well, it says to "make disciples", or "students", of the nations. But it doesn't tell us to convert people. Scripture tells us to preach to people to repent, but that's something they do, not other Christians.

They repent in the power of God by the Gospel message.

Why do WE have to "bring the news" to them if God has already chosen them to be saved? Again, it's quite presumptuous to think WE can have any EFFECT upon God's decision, and presumption is a sin, right?

As I've said before, we have to, because God wants us to be involved in this way -- to bring the news to them. God does not want one child of God to attack and attempt to disown another. Instead God wants the children of God to encourage and join with one another.

True, and if the NT ONLY said that I would have no problem with UE. A CHANGE OF HEART or REPENTANCE is inherent within the idea of "conversion".

So ... could you point out the verse where Scripture says an evangelist changes the heart of someone without God's involvement?

But part of His "agenda" IS to "persuade", or convert, correct?

"persuade" and "convert" are two fundamentally different concepts. If you actually convert someone, that means you're responsible and not they, themselves.

So at this point I think it would be good for me to know what you think really changes someone's heart? Because we know that sheer information doesn't do it. I can state the same Gospel to a room of hundreds, and they will not completely convert.

No, you should keep doing that because you are helping to actually CONVERT, not simply telling the damned the "Truth" so they will have no excuse. You can be part of the CONVERSION PROCESS. Obviously "no one can come to the Father..." but you are doing something REAL.

I've not said I'm separated from the conversion process. God intentionally commands me to be present for providing the Good News.

And I've obviously said I'm doing something real. But it's not getting into someone's heart and converting it. I'm sharing a message, the Gospel of salvation. That message only has power by God's Spirit. I'm only a clay pot carrying the message around.

Right, moving them to CONVERT, not merely inform the damned for the sake of fairness.

No, I am not commanded to make them convert. I am responsible to share the Gospel with them. Their conversion is God's business. I don't have power over the human heart to cause its change. Such things got the Church embroiled in the Inquisition in past times.

Scripture commands us to "go and make disciples".

Jesus commands us to "μαθητευσατε παντα τα εθνη", "disciple all the nations".

Certainly the Spirit is the one ultimately responsible for any change of heart, but that's what it is, a TRUE change. The person "accepts Jesus" and moves from death to life, truly from being damned to being saved. On the other hand if the same person, once TRULY SAVED, later rejects Christ and His Church, that person has gone from light and again into darkness.

Hm, so do you think that continuing on in this life can separate the truly-saved from the love of God?

The fact that we are called upon to convert and persuade people to have faith in Christ, debunks UE because nowhere in Scripture is it taught that the saved will be saved no matter what the apostles did, on the contrary, they were told by Jesus and Paul that evangelization was paramount to the message of Christ.

I would be interested in where you're drawing forth the idea that I would convert someone.

 

[smaller]

Or to put it another way, all men are PREDESTINED for salvation, but, because of their free will, they CHOOSE damnation.

or it could be that you've chosen imperfectly to only see it that way.

Look, here is the condition of the unsaved. There is no choice to believe that the god of this world blinds the minds of the unbeliever unless they saved 'freewiller' advocate themselves are blinded to the fact of it.

2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

You see 'all' of you freewillers blindly blame only the blinded unbeliever and exactly zero of you see the other will at work, blinding such minds.

Why is that?

It is because you are also blinded to this simple fact. The 'will' of that man is not 'functionally' alone. There is another will not of the man on top in that equation.

Yet you all blame only the man's choice and discount the other will entirely and blame the man for the blinding will also.

Sorry, not even credible. But that is how you blindly choose to see it. Nothing more than that.

Paul also told us that our own wills were in likewise straits when we were unbelievers. Yet you all blindly can not see this either. You blindly choose not to see it.

Ephesians 2:2
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Another will can be set right before your own eyes and you, yet claiming freewill can not even see the operations of another will upon the blinded.

How blind is such a supposed 'free' will?

Extremely blinded. Even in the saved. Two wills can be openly shown to be operable upon the unsaved, yet only one is accounted for.

In short it doesn't even make sense. Yet how many of you bow there?

Everyone of you are being used to condemn the blinded slaves and to ignore the will and operation of the devil, the god of this world.

In that I say you haven't fallen far from the tree. You don't even perceive the cause of their blindness. And you can not because your own wills are likewise still shaded and jaded.

You have an enemy. That enemy is not the freewill of the unsaved.

s

 

[Tri Unity]

Re: The seal of the righteousness of the faith...

Yes, it's a proper order of events.

But foreknowledge is not knowing beforehand that someone would come to Christ.

Backflip!!!

So you are saying that 'God did not know beforehand that someone would come to Christ...' that is what you just said, isn't it?

 

[rrowell]

If you review my prior post you will see that I called your shot before you posted your response.

"And you will excuse this impotent God on the ground of faulting the person."

and voila. that is exactly what you did. funny huh?

That's exactly what I did, I don't fault God for anything, it is by his Grace your typing and he did not destroy us all.

I also stated that you might not be able to engage a genuine scriptural silver bullet to your advance called response.

and you didn't.

I gave a scripture 1 Tim. 2:3-4 and plainly said and Ill say it again, it is Gods will for ALL men to be saved... that certainly does not put will not put blame on God.

I can only say that some are predestined to not see it.

And you are perhaps an example of that.

I am content with predestination. One sees what they can see. Others don't and can't.[/QUOTE]I don't see vision related to predestination anywhere in the Bible, what man see's is revelation, that is all God is responsible for and he did it through his Son Jesus Christ.

One who sees the validity of many positions is in fact predestined to see more things. They are predestined not to get caught up in ringed fences.

s[/QUOTE]

This is why we have division today, where does the bible teach "one who sees validity of many positions is in fact predestined" we call these man made doctrine.

 

[rrowell]

Whenever any of us discuss scripture, and yes, I have deep intimacy, the reality is that most often we are discussing our own reflections same.

There are many reflections to be had.

Some reflections are worth having and keeping. Some are dead ends.

That's the fun part of theology.

1 Corinthians 14:10
There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.

s

Many good books by many scholarly men have caused division in those that read them...

We must pick our scholars very careful and take them as their opinion, compare them with the Bible but let the Bible always win...

The Devil is a scholar, he quotes scripture, he told Eve what God meant...

and never forget:

James 1:5 (KJV)
5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

 

[smaller]

That's exactly what I did, I don't fault God for anything, it is by his Grace your typing and he did not destroy us all.

Never said you did.

You 'excuse' Him on the basis of impotence and inability.

I gave a scripture 1 Tim. 2:3-4 and plainly said and Ill say it again, it is Gods will for ALL men to be saved... that certainly does not put will not put blame on God.

Unfortunately you don't see the fact that makes Gods Will impotent and ineffective.

I don't see vision related to predestination anywhere in the Bible, what man see's is revelation, that is all God is responsible for and he did it through his Son Jesus Christ.

Limited effect on Gods part is still what that view comes down to regardless.

Some claim unlimited atonement, but usually such claims remain of the ineffective sort for many regardless.

I've observed that there is not much difference in either freewillism or determinism as it pertains to the lost. Bottom line is they are lost regardless of either sides claims so the bottom line is identical. How they arrived at the math would seem rather irrelevant in the equations. One view does provide God a position of different Superiority.

Freewillism says God can't save the lost.

Determinism say He can but chooses not to.

Bottom line however is the same.

This is why we have division today, where does the bible teach "one who sees validity of many positions is in fact predestined" we call these man made doctrine.

All doctrines are partial. They are held by believers with imperfect sights. Therefore all doctrines are derived from imperfect sight and are therefore imperfect regardless of any believers claim to perfect sights. Such are technically not able to see their own limitations and rather fib past the fact.

s

 

[rrowell]

Freewillism says God can't save the lost.

It does not say "God can't save the lost", it says "if you don't obey God, God cannot save the lost"... big difference there...

God puts boundary upon himself, he said salvation is for those "in Christ" so unless you "by your own free will" obey Him and Christ add you to His body by your obedience putting you "in Christ" God is bound by His own law to not save the lost. He IS a just God.

Determinism say He can but chooses not to.

They have yet to prove that.

All doctrines are partial.

The only partial doctrines are man made, the Doctrine of Christ is complete:

2 Timothy 3:15-17 (KJV)
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

 

[heymikey80]

Re: The seal of the righteousness of the faith...

Backflip!!!

So you are saying that 'God did not know beforehand that someone would come to Christ...' that is what you just said, isn't it?

That's not what I said. God knows facts about people, in fact all facts, completely.

What I said is, that's not what Paul is referring to when he says "Those God foreknew". It's excluded due to the meaning of "those he predestined", b/c "predestined" then would not mean predestined.

Paul is not referring to facts. God knows people -- God knew you from eternity, not just facts about you and your future. That's personal. Not facts. For instance, you may research someone like Lincoln to the point where you know more about these people than anyone who ever met them. But they know Lincoln; you don't.

So back to the point: if God were predicting what you'd do "on your own steam", then God could not be said to predestine what you'd do through His power. So if "foreknow" is only prediction of facts, then "predestine" is the wrong word for what follows. Therefore, "foreknow" is not prediction of facts: it must mean a personal relationship.

 

[savedbygrace57]

rr said

The Church was not an afterthought, it was by design before the foundation of
the world, and when anyone puts on Christ, he adds them to his Church:

Now he said whenever anyone puts on Christ he adds them to His Church. This statment is false unless he can show where the bible says that.

For Christ laid down His Life for His Church while they were ungodly sinners and in unbelief. Eph 5:25

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

The giving Himself for it means He died for it, when ? Rom 5:6

For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.[The Church]

Now the poster must prove his theory that One becomes of Christ church when they put on Christ, I suspect he means believe in Him, but that must be proved with scripture, and not just saying it !

 

[savedbygrace57]

rr

God puts boundary upon himself, he said salvation is for those "in Christ" so
unless you "by your own free will" obey Him and Christ add you to His body by
your obedience putting you "in Christ" God is bound by His own law to not save
the lost. He IS a just God.

Show us in scripture where God puts bounary upon Himself !

Show us in scripture where it says

unless you "by your own free will" obey Him and Christ add you to His body by

your obedience putting you "in Christ"

Now I will show this, By Christ's obedience many shall be made Righteous, and that is by the obedeince OF ONE Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Their obedience is not required to be made Righteous. That proves your statement false !

Now, I know this is a public forum and you have a right to voice your opinion, but please, substantiate your claims with scripture and not just what saith rr