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What is unconditional election, and is it biblical?

Re: The seal of the righteousness of the faith...

Tri Unity said:
To the extent that we freely align to the providence of God we are also predestined; and we are predestined according to the fact
Click to expand...
Yet the text of Romans 8:29-30 states, "Those He foreknew He predestined; and those He predestined He ... glorified."

So God foreknew people, then pre-designated (the meaning of the term) people, and ultimately God glorified people. There's nothing about "as long as they remain aligned". God's work is simply successful when it comes to His children.
 
Re: The seal of the righteousness of the faith...

heymikey80 said:
Yet the text of Romans 8:29-30 states, "Those He foreknew He predestined; and those He predestined He ... glorified."

So God foreknew people, then pre-designated (the meaning of the term) people, and ultimately God glorified people. There's nothing about "as long as they remain aligned". God's work is simply successful when it comes to His children.
Click to expand...

What did God foreknow? Does God know whether or not we will align to His providence? Yes or no. Of course, the answer is yes. To this extent we are also predestined. Predestined according to what? According to God's foreknowledge! God foreknows that we will align in faith, and our role of election is then established based on this knowledge. Do you really thing God plays Russian roulette when he elects His apostles or disciples? No. God knew 11 would remain faithful, and one, Judas, would not. This was not left to guess work or chance; it was foreknown. According to what God foreknew He also predestined. It is not that difficult. :)
 


“Let some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever occurs happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Now, if this is not so, but all things happen by fate, then neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it is predetermined that this man will be good, and this other man will be evil, neither is the first one meritorious nor the latter man to be blamed. And again, unless the human race has the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions.”

Justin Martyr, The First Apology (155 AD), chapter 43
 
heymikey80 said:
pas/pantes is used directly in the context of 1 Tim 2:4 in quite a number of places.
Click to expand...

No, the Greek word in question is not all over 1 Tim. 2, but ONLY in 1 Tim. 2:4

1 Timothy 2:4 (TR)
ος παντας ανθρωπους θελει σωθηναι και εις επιγνωσιν αληθειας ελθειν

I cited them. Instead you shifted to a cherry-picked group of texts completely outside the context of Paul's letter. Why did you do that without responding to the direct context?

Could it be that the context doesn't support your view? At this point that's the only conclusion I can come to, because you didn't answer to the context.
Click to expand...
You call it "cherry-picked", I call it proper exegesis...

You claim to know Greek, if you do you will notice all of the Greek words translated "all" are from the base πᾶς the reason they transliterate it "pas" , Greek happens to be a (fusional) Inflected language and since you said you know Greek you should know the endings applied can change the meaning of the word.

So I chose 3 verses to make my point, 1 Tim 2:4 (the exact Greek word translated (all) which says and cannot be denied "all" means "all of mankind" that God wishes to be saved (not just your "elect")

Acts 1:24 which has the EXACT same Greek word with the same endings rendered (all)... that said Jesus/God knows the hearts of "all of mankind" (of which you cannot deny as your whole Calvinistic doctrine supports the fact God and Jesus are Omniscient "all knowing" or they could not possibly know who your so called "elect" are...)

And for good measure and brevity I chose Mat. 14:35 which uses two Greek words both rendered (all), the first showing how the ending can change the meaning of the base word, and the second containing the EXACT same Greek word, with the EXACT same endings meaning "of all kind of sickness" not just "some/elect sickness"...

Your Calvinistic doctrine cannot stand on its own and is heresy....
 
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Just a reminder: No personal attacks are allowed.

So let's stop & think thrice before submitting a post that includes a personal attack.

Now....back to the discussion!
 
savedbygrace57 said:
bornagain



You quote scripture, but you darken the counsel of it with your opinion, so its meaningless coming from such a source !
Click to expand...

SBG, this is quite an accusation there of which I challenge you to back up...

I can show in the Bible what a man must do to be saved, now show me with scripture that leads you to believe that God "chose" YOU by "election" and not ME...

Not by opinion, by God Given Scripture!
 
Tri Unity said:


“Let some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever occurs happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Now, if this is not so, but all things happen by fate, then neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it is predetermined that this man will be good, and this other man will be evil, neither is the first one meritorious nor the latter man to be blamed. And again, unless the human race has the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions.”

Justin Martyr, The First Apology (155 AD), chapter 43
Click to expand...

IMO this fatalistic view of things has absolutely zero glory in it.. and I'm not sure if there is a more shallow perspective given to God than this...

Conversely, I can't think of anything more infinitely glorious than our own Creator, making us in His own image.. allowing each and every one of us to go our own way, to see for ourselves so to speak the vanity in that... and to purchase us with the infinite cost of His own precious blood to bring us back to God..
 
rr

SBG, this is quite an accusation there of which I challenge you to back
up...
Click to expand...

That challenge has been met for quite sometime, just read my threads !
 
savedbygrace57 said:
rr



That challenge has been met for quite sometime, just read my threads !
Click to expand...

I have read your threads and come to the same conclusion, you have only penned opinion (of which you accuse everyone else of) and had not seen ONE BIBLICAL PROOF BY YOU that shows me how you got picked, and I did not...

Please give me Biblical proof so if you are right, and I am wrong, I can correct myself...
 
Eventide said:
IMO this fatalistic view of things has absolutely zero glory in it.. and I'm not sure if there is a more shallow perspective given to God than this...

Conversely, I can't think of anything more infinitely glorious than our own Creator, making us in His own image.. allowing each and every one of us to go our own way, to see for ourselves so to speak the vanity in that... and to purchase us with the infinite cost of His own precious blood to bring us back to God..
Click to expand...

Hey Eventide,

Either you read Tri's post to fast (I had to read it twice myself) or your saying something you don't really mean...

He is agreeing with what you just said... he is disagreeing with predestination and saying man does by his own free will have a choice to do the will of God, accepting what Christ has given through the cross to ALL men, and if it be predestined it makes the cross useless...

Unless I am the one miss reading what he said, I think he is agreeing with you...
 
rrowell said:
Hey Eventide,

Either you read Tri's post to fast (I had to read it twice myself) or your saying something you don't really mean...

He is agreeing with what you just said... he is disagreeing with predestination and saying man does by his own free will have a choice to do the will of God, accepting what Christ has given through the cross to ALL men, and if it be predestined it makes the cross useless...

Unless I am the one miss reading what he said, I think he is agreeing with you...
Click to expand...

I have been following the conversation here and am well aware that Tri doesn't hold to this fatalistic view... perhaps you read that into my comments.. :-)
 
After digging deeper into the Greek, I would like to make a correction to my earlier two posts...

the Greek word "παντας" in 1 Tim. 2:4 does not mean "all of mankind" like I said, but "all of unsaved", so it could be rendered as such:

1 Timothy 2:4 (KJV)
4 Who will have all unsaved men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Acts 1:24 does not have the EXACT endings so I will retract that verse from my argument however, Mat. 14:35 does have EXACTLY the same endings, so...

Just like Jesus healed "all the sick" in Mat. 14:35, it is Gods will to have "all unsaved men saved"...

The result is the same, it goes against the Calvinistic view that God from the beginning made some to be lost, and nothing they can do about it as clearly 1 Timothy 2:4 shows...


Calivistic doctrine is False, making it heresy!
 
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savedbygrace57 said:
rr

I have read your threads and come to the same conclusion, you have only penned opinion (of which you accuse everyone else of) and had not seen ONE BIBLICAL PROOF BY YOU that shows me how you got picked, and I did not...

Please give me Biblical proof so if you are right, and I am wrong, I can correct myself...
Click to expand...
Ok thats that !
Click to expand...

When you quote me, quote what I said, there, that's better!
 
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