What is unconditional election, and is it biblical?

[Tri Unity]

Election is a choice that begins a process. Salvation is a process beginning in election. But salvation is not election on its own.

Election does not begin the process: election is part of the process. Before election and predestination comes foreknowledge.

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate. ... Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." (Romans 8:29. 30)

This is indeed a process, but election does not begin the process; foreknowledge does.

 

[watchman333]

Election is definately Biblical, as noted by many in this thread, but allow me to give you something different to think about. God's elect, like the chosen (eklectos) vessel Paul, may have been chosen before being born of woman. In my opinion, the elect were chosen in the world that then was, the age before this flesh age. They were chosen before the FOUNDATION (Katabole in the Greek) which was Satan's overthrow, because they stood with Christ against the usurper. Therefore, He can trust them in the flesh and they are already justified. Any thoughts?

 

[heymikey80]

Election does not begin the process: election is part of the process. Before election and predestination comes foreknowledge.

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate. ... Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." (Romans 8:29. 30)

This is indeed a process, but election does not begin the process; foreknowledge does.

"In Paul's letter to Romans it seems to be election. If you're known to God according to "foreknowledge", you're going to be glorified. On the idea that foreknowledge isn't election, one might make this case. It may be that foreknowledge is the status of someone who is elected as well. Which precedes which isn't established.

 

[Tri Unity]

"In Paul's letter to Romans it seems to be election. If you're known to God according to "foreknowledge", you're going to be glorified. On the idea that foreknowledge isn't election, one might make this case. It may be that foreknowledge is the status of someone who is elected as well. Which precedes which isn't established.

I think you are confused about this. Can God elect someone before He knows about it? As though election is greater than God Himself. Election is our calling, which is tied in with being predestined. We are predestined because God has foreknown us, not the other way around. It cannot be the other way around. I think "which precedes which" is self-evident, or it should be. Otherwise you are suggesting that God's election was before He even had knowledge of it. That is why Paul clearly states that:

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate. ... Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." (Romans 8:29. 30)

Paul points out the lineage of what comes first and what comes second. First is foreknowledge. This is clearly established.

 

[Tri Unity]

Election is definately Biblical, as noted by many in this thread, but allow me to give you something different to think about. God's elect, like the chosen (eklectos) vessel Paul, may have been chosen before being born of woman. In my opinion, the elect were chosen in the world that then was, the age before this flesh age. They were chosen before the FOUNDATION (Katabole in the Greek) which was Satan's overthrow, because they stood with Christ against the usurper. Therefore, He can trust them in the flesh and they are already justified. Any thoughts?

Interesting. So you are suggesting that we existed in the spirit before we existed in the flesh, and our election is based on the idea that we already resisted satan prior to becoming flesh? Is this what you are suggesting?

 

[Gordon]

I have some other questions. When Jesus said that if the miracles he performed would have been performed in Sodom they would have repented. Wouldn't that imply that they would have seen evidence and made a choice? So is it possible to repent as a choice but not possible to accept Jesus as your savior? Also was Jesus unaware who the predestined saved all were? Why did he act surprised by the faith of the centurion? Was this for the benefit of the people around? Did Jesus not know him as one of his sheep? Also wouldn't it be odd to praise someone for their faith when it was all given from God. Shouldn't he have given the glory to God and said look at this gift of faith? It just seemed Jesus pointed to the faith in people. Like wouldn't it be strange to question why Peter doubted if it had nothing to do with him? Just trying to get a better understanding of all this.

 

[Gordon]

It seems to me if Jesus knew exactly who would believe and who would not which I believe he did(it says he did), he didn't operate from this belief. He didn't preach to just his sheep. He didn't go around identifying everyone who he knew as his sheep. He sent people to towns that wouldn't accept him. He tested peoples faith and allowed people who would turn away to follow him. So I'm wondering if as an example Jesus was showing us that we should operate as though salvation was conditional whether this is the case or not. I do know Jesus told one person who didn't believe because he was not one of his sheep. It would have been a lot different if Jesus went among the crowd of 5000 and told each person if they were his or not because what would be the point in someone who is lost thinking they had the chance to accept him? Like are we supposed to believe we are predestined but as in the example of Jesus not conduct ourselves so?

 

[savedbygrace57]

Also what is biblical is that of uncoditional reprobation to damnation, yes, those to be damned will be for their sins, but their sins were not the cause originally for their reprobation and damnation, but God's Sovereign Will alone !

 

[watchman333]

Interesting. So you are suggesting that we existed in the spirit before we existed in the flesh, and our election is based on the idea that we already resisted satan prior to becoming flesh? Is this what you are suggesting?

Hi Tri. Yes, I believe everyone that has passed and are passing thru the flesh existed in the age before this flesh age. As the Lord told Jeremiah, Before I formed thee in the belly, I knew thee... In John, the Lord was explaining to Nicodemus how we must be BORN AGAIN. This is actually a bad translation from the Greek for the Lord was actually telling him, we must be BEGOTTEN FROM ABOVE. The Lord asked Job, Where were you when the sons of God all shouted with joy? One more thought. I believe there are millions of years between verses 1 and 2 of Genesis 1. God knows and knew every one of us before we were born of our mothers. Now I understand that raises many questions, so just call it an elect response.

 

[Tri Unity]

Hi Tri. Yes, I believe everyone that has passed and are passing thru the flesh existed in the age before this flesh age. As the Lord told Jeremiah, Before I formed thee in the belly, I knew thee... In John, the Lord was explaining to Nicodemus how we must be BORN AGAIN. This is actually a bad translation from the Greek for the Lord was actually telling him, we must be BEGOTTEN FROM ABOVE. The Lord asked Job, Where were you when the sons of God all shouted with joy? One more thought. I believe there are millions of years between verses 1 and 2 of Genesis 1. God knows and knew every one of us before we were born of our mothers. Now I understand that raises many questions, so just call it an elect response.

Ok. I've heard something like this view before. I don't subscribe to the gap theory of genesis 1-2. I am completely against it (theologically). I do see merits in a pre-life though. I can't wait to die and find out...:p

 

[Butch5]

Hi Tri. Yes, I believe everyone that has passed and are passing thru the flesh existed in the age before this flesh age. As the Lord told Jeremiah, Before I formed thee in the belly, I knew thee... In John, the Lord was explaining to Nicodemus how we must be BORN AGAIN. This is actually a bad translation from the Greek for the Lord was actually telling him, we must be BEGOTTEN FROM ABOVE. The Lord asked Job, Where were you when the sons of God all shouted with joy? One more thought. I believe there are millions of years between verses 1 and 2 of Genesis 1. God knows and knew every one of us before we were born of our mothers. Now I understand that raises many questions, so just call it an elect response.

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. {of the dust...: Heb. dust of the ground} (Gen 2:7 KJV)

 

[Eventide]

Maybe because that's not how unconditional election works ...?

Unconditional election is about the promise of God being unilateral, not based on what people do, or what their genealogy is.

But it has absolutely everything to do with them. It's all an effect of God's election, not its cause.

The serious trouble encountered with most critiques of unconditional election is this: election is not itself, salvation. Election is the choosing from God, but to think human beings aren't affected by God's choice itself is a pretty odd thought. Election is a choice that begins a process. Salvation is a process beginning in election. But salvation is not election on its own.

You should write a book heymikey... I'll bet that you can make millions selling this stuff.

And once again... According to what your teachers feed you... No, it has absolutely nothing to do with them... God had to choose YOU because you couldn't believe... Remember, you're totally depraved..and then of course you're tied to that other massive anchor irresistible grace... Lol

I'd say you are just lucky to be one of the elect, along with the infinitely glorious Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Slider]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. God knows what we will do, and he foreordained it. We don't do anything that God doesn't already know we will do and it's all planned just as much as God ordained mosquitoes to annoy people by biting them. Some are saved, some are damned, and the Bible says God knew it and foreordained it before they were even born.

 

[Cassian]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. God knows what we will do, and he foreordained it. We don't do anything that God doesn't already know we will do and it's all planned just as much as God ordained mosquitoes to annoy people by biting them. Some are saved, some are damned, and the Bible says God knew it and foreordained it before they were even born.

So, why do our civil laws not reflect this understanding? Why do we punish someone for stealing, or murder when God forordained that the person would steal and kill?

And why is there a judgement again? Why do we hold men responsible when God does not?

 

[Slider]

So, why do our civil laws not reflect this understanding? Why do we punish someone for stealing, or murder when God forordained that the person would steal and kill?

And why is there a judgement again? Why do we hold men responsible when God does not?

First set of questions is irrelevant. second set of questions is based on the false premise. that God doesn't hold men responsible.

 

[Cassian]

First set of questions is irrelevant. second set of questions is based on the false premise. that God doesn't hold men responsible.

they are based on your statement. It is your premise, so you explain.

 

[Slider]

they are based on your statement. It is your premise, so you explain.

Again, the first set of questions (pertaining to our civil laws) is irrelevant, so there is no need to explain. As for the second set of questions, I never said God didn't hold men responsible. So the questions aren't valid to my statement. The basis for the questions is false, and thus, there is no need explain.

 

[dadof10]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. God knows what we will do, and he foreordained it. We don't do anything that God doesn't already know we will do and it's all planned just as much as God ordained mosquitoes to annoy people by biting them. Some are saved, some are damned, and the Bible says God knew it and foreordained it before they were even born.

So, why pray? That Jesus told us to "ask, and you shall receive" debunks your view.

 

[Slider]

So, why pray? That Jesus told us to "ask, and you shall receive" debunks your view.

No, it doesn't. First off, is that all there is about praying? What you can ask for and receive????

God knows what you have need of before you ask him. However, he still said to ask him. He obviously wants us to go through the process. He also knows who will and ordained it to happen beforehand.

 

[Cassian]

Again, the first set of questions (pertaining to our civil laws) is irrelevant, so there is no need to explain. As for the second set of questions, I never said God didn't hold men responsible. So the questions aren't valid to my statement. The basis for the questions is false, and thus, there is no need explain.

Then what you stated is nothing but empty verbiage. Why did you state if it has no meaning?

If you meant and understand what you wrote, then what I asked is certainly relevant and very pertinent. Or maybe you don't really understand what you stated?

Why would you need to state that "I never said God didn't hold men responsible" when you stated this "
I've said it before and I'll say it again. God knows what we will do, and he foreordained it. We don't do anything that God doesn't already know we will do and it's all planned just as much as God ordained mosquitoes to annoy people by biting them. Some are saved, some are damned, and the Bible says God knew it and foreordained it before they were even born."

If God ordained everything I did, then I didn't do anything. I am merely a tool that God manipulates and how could I be responsible for what God does?