What is unconditional election, and is it biblical?

[reba]

2.5: Respect each others' opinions. Address issues, not persons or personalities. Give other members the respect you would want them to give yourself.


This is heading personal guys not a good idea...

 

[Slider]

Then what you stated is nothing but empty verbiage. Why did you state if it has no meaning?

If you meant and understand what you wrote, then what I asked is certainly relevant and very pertinent. Or maybe you don't really understand what you stated?

Why would you need to state that "I never said God didn't hold men responsible" when you stated this "
I've said it before and I'll say it again. God knows what we will do, and he foreordained it. We don't do anything that God doesn't already know we will do and it's all planned just as much as God ordained mosquitoes to annoy people by biting them. Some are saved, some are damned, and the Bible says God knew it and foreordained it before they were even born."

If God ordained everything I did, then I didn't do anything. I am merely a tool that God manipulates and how could I be responsible for what God does?

Nothing I said in my statement says God doesn't hold men responsible. Even though he knows what we will do and has ordained it -- whether it be (at the very least) our nature to do it, or (at most) specific events -- doesn't mean God doesn't hold us responsible. We still do them even if God has planned them.

 

[Cassian]

Nothing I said in my statement says God doesn't hold men responsible. Even though he knows what we will do and has ordained it -- whether it be (at the very least) our nature to do it, or (at most) specific events -- doesn't mean God doesn't hold us responsible. We still do them even if God has planned them.

You stated that God forordains what man does. If God foreordains I am not responsible for the act that He foreordained. You have created a theological contradiction.

Knowing is not foreordaining. Our nature does not do anything Our nature is an influence upon what we do. Our nature is a state of being thus cannot do anything.

We still do them even if God has planned them.

but that is your contradiction. You are not doing them. God is doing them. If He planned that you steal something, and you do it, it was not you that did it. You have no imput, action on your part, no will was involved, thus no responsibility.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Both unconditional election and reprobation are biblical ! Yes, God does ultimatlely punish the wicked reprobate for their sins, but they did not become the reprobate because of their sins, they became reprobate because God created them that way, and to show His Justice in punishing them !

 

[BornAgain]

Both unconditional election and reprobation are biblical ! Yes, God does ultimatlely punish the wicked reprobate for their sins, but they did not become the reprobate because of their sins, they became reprobate because God created them that way, and to show His Justice in punishing them !

Reprobation is not mentioned in the Bible but a reprobate mind is. A "reprobate mind" is one lost to virtue, wholly given up to sin, abandoned to error, lost to all sense of duty. To say God made man a sinner it to say we were born with sin. Man is a sinner when "chooses" to commit a sin.

When God saw that they did not like to retain the knowledge of Him in their mind, he gave them over to sin without further effort to restrain them. to do those things which are not fitting.

 

[heymikey80]

I think you are confused about this.

I'm pretty sure I'm not confused. Why do you ask?

Can God elect someone before He knows about it?

Granted your pronoun indicates the question, "Can God elect someone before God knows about it?", nobody's said He does. God's omniscient.

As though election is greater than God Himself.

Election is from the Mind of God. Are you saying God is greater than Himself?

Election is our calling, which is tied in with being predestined.

Election precedes predestination.

We are predestined because God has foreknown us, not the other way around.

Which "other way around"?

It cannot be the other way around. I think "which precedes which" is self-evident, or it should be. Otherwise you are suggesting that God's election was before He even had knowledge of it.

Foreknowledge is not something about us; it is us. That is, through God's relationship foreordained with us, we were predestined.
Election/Foreknowledge, predestination, then calling.

That is why Paul clearly states that: "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate. ... Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." (Romans 8:29. 30)

Paul points out the lineage of what comes first and what comes second. First is foreknowledge. This is clearly established.

Note the absence of election. That's due to the equivalence of foreknowledge with election in Paul's thinking. God's preference for us is God's particular relationship with us.

 

[heymikey80]

I have some other questions. When Jesus said that if the miracles he performed would have been performed in Sodom they would have repented. Wouldn't that imply that they would have seen evidence and made a choice? So is it possible to repent as a choice but not possible to accept Jesus as your savior?

Well, you're possessed of a will, a will makes choices. The issue is how much God is involved in those choices and in your will.

The issue is not how human capacity has changed; the issue is how God has constructed the human capacity.

Also was Jesus unaware who the predestined saved all were? Why did he act surprised by the faith of the centurion? Was this for the benefit of the people around? Did Jesus not know him as one of his sheep? Also wouldn't it be odd to praise someone for their faith when it was all given from God. Shouldn't he have given the glory to God and said look at this gift of faith? It just seemed Jesus pointed to the faith in people. Like wouldn't it be strange to question why Peter doubted if it had nothing to do with him? Just trying to get a better understanding of all this.

Jesus was it seems aware who was His. He picked disciples, for instance. I'm not aware that Jesus was surprised by the centurion's faith, only that it was exceptional for a Gentile soldier to have such a faith.

Praise for expressing your faith given the influences of the culture to do something else, that's not unusual. Parents praise their kids for actions that are otherwise typical and usual. God is our Father.

Questions and praise are both relational actions, both of which can have motives other than lack of information. And it's likely as you read the questions Jesus poses, you'll find them rhetorical, designed to get the person questioned to become aware of his situation, and not the reverse.

 

[heymikey80]

You should write a book heymikey... I'll bet that you can make millions selling this stuff.

That's okay, other people have.

And once again... According to what your teachers feed you...

y'mean Jesus? the Apostles?

No, it has absolutely nothing to do with them... God had to choose YOU because you couldn't believe... Remember, you're totally depraved..and then of course you're tied to that other massive anchor irresistible grace... Lol

The Spirit of God is Who brings us to believe, right? Or are you saying we can believe without the Spirit of God?

Isn't the Spirit ... God?

I'd say you are just lucky to be one of the elect, along with the infinitely glorious Lord Jesus Christ.

I'd say that God decides who to elect, and I don't think God plays dice with election.

 

[savedbygrace57]

born again

Reprobation is not mentioned in the Bible

That is just your opinion it is not. It just means rejected. All whom were not accepted in the Beloved before the foundation of the World, are rejected of God Eph 1:3-6

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Everyone else shall seek acceptance with God by their doings, and consequently, they are under the curse of the Law !

God told the rejected cain Gen 4:7

7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

This reveals Two things, that cain was rejected by the Lord and #2 that cain was not accepted in The beloved before the foundation, so God left him to attempt to find acceptance by his doing well, which is impossible to do with God, so God basically left him in a rejected condition !

 

[Eventide]

That's okay, other people have.

No doubt there are many who feed the flock of God the false doctrine that they are chosen by God unconditionally... or worse, that the atoning work of our Lord Jesus Christ was limited.

y'mean Jesus? the Apostles?

No, the revered scholars of the day who teach things like 'unconditional election', limited atonement, etc etc..

The Spirit of God is Who brings us to believe, right? Or are you saying we can believe without the Spirit of God?

That's what the Holy Spirit of God does.. He convicts the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment. And no there would be no belief without the Spirit of God and the word of God convicting men of these vital truths... because that's what faith and conviction is based upon.. evidence.

Isn't the Spirit ... God?

No doubt in my mind that He is.

I'd say that God decides who to elect, and I don't think God plays dice with election.

Me neither, that's why He tells us plainly in His word that He hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.

 

[BornAgain]

born again



That is just your opinion it is not. It just means rejected. All whom were not accepted in the Beloved before the foundation of the World, are rejected of God Eph 1:3-6

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Everyone else shall seek acceptance with God by their doings, and consequently, they are under the curse of the Law !

God told the rejected cain Gen 4:7

7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

This reveals Two things, that cain was rejected by the Lord and #2 that cain was not accepted in The beloved before the foundation, so God left him to attempt to find acceptance by his doing well, which is impossible to do with God, so God basically left him in a rejected condition !

I do not use my opinion and never have in such matters as these. In researching your statement that reporbation is biblical could not find it in the KJV. Reprobate is mentioned 7 times throughout the KJV:

Jer 6:30, Rom 1:28, 2 Cor 13:5, 2 Cor 13:6, 2 Cor 13:7 & 2 Titus 3:8.

Reprobation, in Christian theology is a corollary to the Calvinistic doctrine of unconditional election which derives that some of mankind (the electhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chosen_people#Christianity) are predestined by God for salvation. Therefore, the remainder are left bound to their fallen nature and certain damnation. This same state of unbelief is also known as reprobation.


In Calvinist terminology, the non-elect are often referred to as the reprobate. Similarly, when a sinner is so hardened as to feel no remorse or misgiving of conscience, it is considered as a sign of reprobation.


Not mentioned in the King James Bible.

 

[rrowell]

born again



That is just your opinion it is not. It just means rejected. All whom were not accepted in the Beloved before the foundation of the World, are rejected of God Eph 1:3-6

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Everyone else shall seek acceptance with God by their doings, and consequently, they are under the curse of the Law !

God told the rejected cain Gen 4:7

7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

This reveals Two things, that cain was rejected by the Lord and #2 that cain was not accepted in The beloved before the foundation, so God left him to attempt to find acceptance by his doing well, which is impossible to do with God, so God basically left him in a rejected condition !

Replace "us" with what "us" means...

Ephesians 1:3-6 (KJV)
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us(all men) with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us(all men) in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us(all men) unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us(all men) accepted in the beloved.

(all men) were from the beginning it was his will, for (all men), to be IN HIM

 

[Slider]

You stated that God forordains what man does. If God foreordains I am not responsible for the act that He foreordained. You have created a theological contradiction.

Knowing is not foreordaining. Our nature does not do anything Our nature is an influence upon what we do. Our nature is a state of being thus cannot do anything.

but that is your contradiction. You are not doing them. God is doing them. If He planned that you steal something, and you do it, it was not you that did it. You have no imput, action on your part, no will was involved, thus no responsibility.

Nope... Not a contradiction. God knows what you are going to do, he foreordained it, and you are responsible. Perhaps not fair in your eyes... But so what?

 

[rrowell]

Nope... Not a contradiction. God knows what you are going to do, he foreordained it, and you are responsible. Perhaps not fair in your eyes... But so what?

foreknew and preordained/foreordained are NOT the same thing!

 

[Slider]

foreknew and preordained/foreordained are NOT the same thing!

I know.... God both foreknew AND foreordained. He not only knew it would happen, he's the one who planned it.

 

[rrowell]

I know.... God both foreknew AND foreordained. He not only knew it would happen, he's the one who planned it.

So God planned on Judas betraying Jesus, but Jesus picked him as his elect?

So either God did not know what he was doing, or Jesus did not know what he was doing?

Which is it?

 

[Slider]

So God planned on Judas betraying Jesus, but Jesus picked him as his elect?

So either God did not know what he was doing, or Jesus did not know what he was doing?

Which is it?

Are you serious????

God knew Judas was going to betray him, and Jesus, knowing what was going to happen, picked Judas anyway. Had Jesus not picked him, Judas wouldn't have had the opportunity. kind of like the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil. God knew what Woman would do... And he planted that tree right in the middle of the Garden anyway!

 

[WIP]

Are you serious????

God knew Judas was going to betray him, and Jesus, knowing what was going to happen, picked Judas anyway. Had Jesus not picked him, Judas wouldn't have had the opportunity. kind of like the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil. God knew what Woman would do... And he planted that tree right in the middle of the Garden anyway!

To what end?

 

[reba]

To what end?

The Cross and the Resurrection

 

[Cassian]

Slider,

Nope... Not a contradiction. God knows what you are going to do, he foreordained it, and you are responsible. Perhaps not fair in your eyes... But so what?

knowing what I am going to do has nothing to do with preordination or predestination.

There is very little that God needs to foreordain. If he knows something, he can plan on it, but does not need to foreordain or predestine anything. It kinda redundant and useless.

If God actually ordained that I would commit a crime, then I am not responsible for that crime in any way. It has very little to do with fair, but logical theological construction.

There is nothing in scripture that supports your whole premise of predestination of the acts of man. There is no premise for predestinating anyone to believe either in scipture.

Which is why your statement does not align with scripture. Predestination and the free will of man as God created man is mutually exclusive terms.