"What must I do to be saved?"

[Adullam]

Verse 4 concerns the saints only. Of course Paul wishes all to run that race. The fact remains that very few will do so. The phrase "faithful in Christ Jesus" is a generic term for all Christians, whether saints or not.

Note the distinction that Paul makes. (Also in Colossians)

My specific point here is that when Paul refers to an "us" that is pre-destined, he is not necessarly making a statement about all believers. In fact, and I can discuss this if you like, there is every reason to believe that the "us" in verse 4 is a very small set of New Testament saints.

My point is to challenge those who use Ephesians 1:4 to support a doctrine of pre-destination in respect to humanity in general.

I agree with you! The saints are a subset of Christians. The bible makes a distinction between spiritual and carnal Christians. Those are the only 2 kinds that exist!

 

[Paidion]

I agree with you! The saints are a subset of Christians. The bible makes a distinction between spiritual and carnal Christians. Those are the only 2 kinds that exist!

Paul does not agree with you.

For the one who sows into his own flesh will out of the flesh reap corruption; but the one who sows into the spirit will out of the spirit reap lasting life. Galatians 6:8 A Personal Translation

Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21 NASB

The apostle John does not agree with you:

Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother. I John 3:7-10 NASB

Jesus does not agree with you:

Luke 14:26 "If any one comes to me and does not discount his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.
Luke 14:27 Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
Luke 14:33 So therefore, whoever of you does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple.

And there's no difference between disciples of Christ and Christians!

...in Antioch the disciples were for the first time called Christians. Acts 11:26

 

[Adullam]

I agree with you! The saints are a subset of Christians. The bible makes a distinction between spiritual and carnal Christians. Those are the only 2 kinds that exist!

Paul does not agree with you.

For the one who sows into his own flesh will out of the flesh reap corruption; but the one who sows into the spirit will out of the spirit reap lasting life. Galatians 6:8 A Personal Translation

Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21 NASB

Here we have been given a holy standard. Sinners must forsake all sin to be saints. They must follow the Spirit. How many Christians do you know that don't sin. There is no safety in numbers. If only practicing saints are saved.....well your standard is harder than the bible's. Even a cup of cold water is worth something to God. You must get the perspective right and not argue one scripture against the other. The holy ones will rule over the righteous.

The apostle John does not agree with you:

Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother. I John 3:7-10 NASB

The righteous are scarcly saved nevertheless! There are 2 kinds of righteousness. OUrs and God's. A saint walks in the kingdom reality...and His righteousness. However this is for the saints only!

Jesus does not agree with you:

Luke 14:26 "If any one comes to me and does not discount his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.
Luke 14:27 Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
Luke 14:33 So therefore, whoever of you does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple.

This is a teeny weeny minority. Many are called, few are chosen. Many will strive to enter into the narrow road, and will be unable!

And there's no difference between disciples of Christ and Christians!

...in Antioch the disciples were for the first time called Christians. Acts 11:26

No one said there was! He who does not forsake all, cannot be My disciple! It does not say that the righteous were called Christians.




So I am in agreement with apostolic doctrine. I think it may be just we that disagree!

 

[Joe67]

1 Tim 4:10-11
we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. NAS

Joe

 

[AnnieHere]

To believe on Him means that we have abandoned our will to Him and that we have surrendered ourselves to Him. He has become the Lord of our life we have come to trust altogether in Him

"Abandoning our will to Him" is doing something.
"Surrendering ourselves to Him" is doing something.
"Coming to trust altogether in Him" is doing something.

If we do nothing about our need for Christ, we will not be saved.

The vast majority of people do nothing, and are not saved.

These acts aren't the "cause" of salvation, but they are the "evidence" of true salvation.

A person cannot do any of these things on his own; without God's grace.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast. "
-Ephesians 2:8-9

 

[AnnieHere]

Obey the commandments.

Hi John,

All of mankind are responsible to God... and to be obedient to His commands. Many live moral lives but they are not saved.

Keeping God's commandments or doing anything else will not get a person saved, though.

Salvation is by God's grace alone. When a person becomes saved, he is given a new nature, works will naturally follow.

Obedience to God's Word is the "evidence" of salvation; not the cause.

"And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye SHALL keep my judgments, and do [them]. "
-Ezekiel 36:27

"[It is] good that [a man] should both hope and quietly wait for the salvation of the Lord".
-Lamentations 3:26

 

[AnnieHere]

1 Tim 4:10-11
we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. NAS
Joe

"For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God,
who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe." 1Timothy 4:10

We must remember we need to read this verse
in the light of everything else the Bible teaches.

In this verse god is defining "ALL" men: "especially those that believe"
... they are the ones that are the ALL men that He is the Savior of.

With correct understanding of this verse, comparing scripture with scripture, we
can harmonize all other verses God gave us pertaining to the subject of salvation.

We already know from the Bible, that the fact is, NOT ALL men will be saved.
So we know that God is NOT the Saviour of ALL men:

"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt." -Daniel 12:2

"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me,
ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" -Matthew 25:41

"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." -Matthew 7:22-23

 

[Joe67]

1 Tim 4:10-11
we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. NAS
Joe

"For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God,
who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe." 1Timothy 4:10


We already know from the Bible, that the fact is, NOT ALL men will be saved.
So we know that God is NOT the Saviour of ALL men:[/b]

"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt." -Daniel 12:2

"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me,
ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" -Matthew 25:41

"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." -Matthew 7:22-23

AnnieHere,

Let us think about the significance of the following verses.

Isa 33:14
Who among us can dwell with the devouring fire? who among us can dwell with everlasting burnings?
ASV

Rom 12:20
20 But if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him to drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire upon his head. ASV

Rev 20:9
and fire came down out of heaven, and devoured them. ASV

We hear these verses through Moses and that is good, but we are not able to die for our enemies.

We hear these verses through the resurrected Jesus and that is better, for we are able to love our enemies unto our death. We die that our enemies might live. 2 Corinthians 4:10-12.

May the elect reach maturity and be saved through the grace of childbearing.

Joe