"What must I do to be saved?"

[Joe67]

Isaac, the son of a miracle, had two sons.

Both desired to please their father. Both lived in the same camp for a season. The eldest son bore fruit first.

Their desire to please their father was manifested in two similar but different works.

Their are two gospels in the world. Both gospels are born of Jesus.

The believers in Jesus are born of the womb of Rebekah (allegorically).

God has a place for his Edomite children of free will and a purpose for his children after the type of Jacob; the younger being elected for the priesthood.

Let us be at peace and bury our father's dead body. Let those of Jacob send gifts to their brother Esau and when they meet him to bow 7 times before him and there will be peace; though we cannot walk together, even though Esau requests. We must live in two different camps.

Remember what Jesus our Lord said concerning the two camps.

Joe

 

[AnnieHere]

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast. "
-Eph.2:8-9

Faith which brings about salvation comes from God alone. As Hebrews 11:6 states, it IS impossible to please God without faith; and only those chosen to salvation will be given this kind of faith.

Has it occured to you that God gives ALL men the potential to believe in God (as Romans 1 suggests), but THEY choose to "grieve the Holy Spirit"? Even PAGANS can "know" the God of the Universe through Creation and Conscience. Paul in Romans 2 says some even become spiritual Jews because of their faith in God and their righteous activities brought about by grace, the Law written upon their hearts. Read Romans 1-2 again.

Your brand of "Christianity" has God a harsh Being who randomly picks and chooses whom He will save - while claiming that He desires all men to be saved... THIS is a religion of hope??? It is another version of pagan fatalism, EXACTLY what they hoped to escape while converting to Christ!

By emphasizing one part of Scriptures (fear and sovereignty of the Lord) while de-emphasizing another part (man is given commands that he is EXPECTED to obey), you are led into error. ALL of God's Word is to be heeded, not just bits and pieces.

Regards

It is important to make the distinction between believing about God, in contrast to those called to believe God unto salvation.

God expects all men He created to recognize that He alone is God, and to be obedient to Him. All men are without excuse because of the evidence all around them in His creation:

"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse" -1:20

However, we know from many other scriptures in the Bible that not all will be saved. We also know that God is sovereign over all... He planned it that way. Whether one finds that idea palatable or not, according to the Bible, it is correct.

In a nutshell, this book illustrates that apart from God's grace, the world is not able to please God.

"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one." (v.10-12)

On the other hand, regarding God's elect, Paul has this to say: (it's important to note that Paul is addressing the "beloved of God called to be saints.) (1:7)

"But God commendeth his love toward US, in that, while WE were yet sinners, Christ died for US Much more then, being now justified by his blood, WE shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. And not only [so], but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom WE have now received the atonement. " (vs.8-11)

"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
What shall we then say to these things? If God [be] for us, who [can be] against us?" (vs.28-31

You see, emphasizing only part of the Scriptures is what all the apostasized churches are guilty of. They all preach that one can be saved by his own doing or choosing. Churches say they exist to get people saved, but they cannot get anyone saved. God did all the work and choosing before the foundation of the world. Also important to note is that the early church preached the Gospel of Grace.; not a do-it-yourself salvation plan:

"But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God." -Acts/ 20:24

"I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed." -Gal.1:6-8

 

[francisdesales]

Has it occured to you that God gives ALL men the potential to believe in God (as Romans 1 suggests), but THEY choose to "grieve the Holy Spirit"? Even PAGANS can "know" the God of the Universe through Creation and Conscience. Paul in Romans 2 says some even become spiritual Jews because of their faith in God and their righteous activities brought about by grace, the Law written upon their hearts. Read Romans 1-2 again.

Your brand of "Christianity" has God a harsh Being who randomly picks and chooses whom He will save - while claiming that He desires all men to be saved... THIS is a religion of hope??? It is another version of pagan fatalism, EXACTLY what they hoped to escape while converting to Christ!

By emphasizing one part of Scriptures (fear and sovereignty of the Lord) while de-emphasizing another part (man is given commands that he is EXPECTED to obey), you are led into error. ALL of God's Word is to be heeded, not just bits and pieces.

It is important to make the distinction between believing about God, in contrast to those called to believe God unto salvation.

Please explain that distinction without GOD being responsible for lying in Scriptures. It appears you are saying that God gives only certain people the ability to "believe God unto salvation"... That makes "God desires all men to be saved" a cruel joke.

God expects all men He created to recognize that He alone is God, and to be obedient to Him. All men are without excuse because of the evidence all around them in His creation:

Yes, men are without excuse because God has given ALL men the ability to believe in Him AND the ability to become "spiritual" jews - again, by the Spirit of God writing His Law into man's hearts. So again, explain your above comments...

However, we know from many other scriptures in the Bible that not all will be saved. We also know that God is sovereign over all... He planned it that way. Whether one finds that idea palatable or not, according to the Bible, it is correct.

So GOD is responsible for sending people to hell on a whim, even before creation - and yet, God desires all men to be saved? Your explanation is pagan fatalism, pure and simple...

In a nutshell, this book illustrates that apart from God's grace, the world is not able to please God.

I am sorry you wasted so much time compiling those verses, but I never argued otherwise... The Church has not taught that we are saved apart from God's graces.

You see, emphasizing only part of the Scriptures is what all the apostasized churches are guilty of.

That is what you are guilty of, my friend. Emphasizing PARTS of Scriptures by saying God is absolutely sovereign (true) and from that, saying that God chooses whom He will condemn on a whim or randomly(false) - since our works cannot determine God's decision.

They all preach that one can be saved by his own doing or choosing.

Please point me to a specific Catechism quote that states this, please. You are merely submitting me to a diet of red herrings, and I prefer Easter ham, thank you very much... ;)

God did all the work and choosing before the foundation of the world. Also important to note is that the early church preached the Gospel of Grace.; not a do-it-yourself salvation plan:

Another strawman. WHO has submitted a "do-it-yourself salvation plan"???

"I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed." -Gal.1:6-8

Calvinism is a perversion of the Gospel, that is clear. God is calling you out, but you do not have ears to hear...

Regards

 

[Drew]

There is nothing anyone can do to become saved, but it is of the free grace gift of God.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast. " -Eph.2:8-9

(Repenting is a work that we do.)

Regardless of possible merit to other elements of your argument, you cannot, legitimately anyway, use this famous text to support your position.

The reason is that "works" here refers to the works of the Torah - the Law of Moses. Paul is not speaking about works in the more broad sense that might support your position.

 

[Drew]

"Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace"
-Ephesians 1:3-7

How do you know that the "us" here refers to all believers? I think that an analysis of Ephesians shows that the "us" here must refer only to a very specific small group of New Testament saints and prophets. Of course, I need to actually make that case.

But, likewise, you also need to make a case that "us" is a global term referring to all believers.

 

[JoJo]

The chapter begins, "Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints in Ephesus, the faithful in Christ Jesus." Eph. 1:1

 

[Adullam]

Endure in faithfulness till the end.

 

[Adullam]

The chapter begins, "Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints in Ephesus, the faithful in Christ Jesus." Eph. 1:1

You omitted the "and". It is To the saints and to the faithful in Christ Jesus.

These are 2 separate groups.

 

[JoJo]

I'm sorry, I should have stated that was from the NIV translation (which doesn't include the "and").

 

[Adullam]

I'm sorry, I should have stated that was from the NIV translation (which doesn't include the "and").

What? no and? That makes a huge difference!

 

[JoJo]

 

[Adullam]

Not being a Greek expert in any way I looked up the phrase "Paul and Barnabas" to see what the and was. The word for "and" is "kai". Sure enough, this is the same word that is between the saints AND the faithful brethren. So these are 2 distinct groups.

 

[Joe67]

We have no more power to effect this 'born again' experience than we did the first time we were born. But we do have the choice as to whether we want to be born again.

brakelite,
Did we choose to want to be born the first time?

Joe

 

[XTruth]

We have no more power to effect this 'born again' experience than we did the first time we were born. But we do have the choice as to whether we want to be born again.

brakelite,
Did we choose to want to be born the first time?

Joe

You can't compare the physical birth to the spiritual birth like everyone else does. They aren't the same thing. If it were anyone elses choice to be born again than the individual, then all would be born again since that is God's will (Jn.3:1-21; 1 Tim.2:4; 2 Pt.3:9; Rev.22:17). It was Nicodemus who was to choose, or else Jesus would've told him he was born again since that's His intention for us all. The choice of the individual is clear in verses 15-21, especially the choice of the unregenerate individual in verses 19-21.

John 3
1There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

2The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

9Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

10Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

11Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

12If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

 

[Joe67]

The power of choice is Mt. Sinai.

Joe

 

[Adullam]

Obey the commandments.

 

[Drew]

The chapter begins, "Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints in Ephesus, the faithful in Christ Jesus." Eph. 1:1

Are you suggesting that this makes the case that the "us" in verse 4 - the "us" who are pre-destined - are therefore the "faithful in Christ Jesus"?

That would be like me writing a letter, addressed to you, in which I say something about me, with you concluding that what I have said about me applies to you as well.

The fact that the recipients are seen as the "faithful in Christ Jesus" (with reasonable generalization to include all believers) does not mean that the "us" in verse 4 (the pre-destined one) is also a reference to all believers.

 

[Adullam]

The chapter begins, "Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints in Ephesus, the faithful in Christ Jesus." Eph. 1:1

Are you suggesting that this makes the case that the "us" in verse 4 - the "us" who are pre-destined - are therefore the "faithful in Christ Jesus"?

That would be like me writing a letter, addressed to you, in which I say something about me, with you concluding that what I have said about me applies to you as well.

The fact that the recipients are seen as the "faithful in Christ Jesus" (with reasonable generalization to include all believers) does not mean that the "us" in verse 4 (the pre-destined one) is also a reference to all believers.

Verse 4 concerns the saints only. Of course Paul wishes all to run that race. The fact remains that very few will do so. The phrase "faithful in Christ Jesus" is a generic term for all Christians, whether saints or not.

Note the distinction that Paul makes. (Also in Colossians)

 

[Paidion]

To believe on Him means that we have abandoned our will to Him and that we have surrendered ourselves to Him. He has become the Lord of our life we have come to trust altogether in Him

"Abandoning our will to Him" is doing something.
"Surrendering ourselves to Him" is doing something.
"Coming to trust altogether in Him" is doing something.

If we do nothing about our need for Christ, we will not be saved.

The vast majority of people do nothing, and are not saved.

 

[Drew]

Verse 4 concerns the saints only. Of course Paul wishes all to run that race. The fact remains that very few will do so. The phrase "faithful in Christ Jesus" is a generic term for all Christians, whether saints or not.

Note the distinction that Paul makes. (Also in Colossians)

My specific point here is that when Paul refers to an "us" that is pre-destined, he is not necessarly making a statement about all believers. In fact, and I can discuss this if you like, there is every reason to believe that the "us" in verse 4 is a very small set of New Testament saints.

My point is to challenge those who use Ephesians 1:4 to support a doctrine of pre-destination in respect to humanity in general.