What's What With Baptism?

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

BORNE OF WATER meaning you agree to lay down your life according to the law that you deserve to die for your faults , and for the remission of those faults / sins. BONE OF THE SPIRIT meaning you agree to respect GODS RULE and accept JESUS as your savior unto the Holy Spiritual creation / a son of GOD / [metamorphosize] what you are and become something more glorious more useful, and more cherished by the FATHER

How do you come to these definitions of being born of water and being born of the Spirit?

 

[Butch5]

The issue over the importance, the purpose, and the very necessity of water baptism invariably comes up ever so often when any group of individuals that study the Bible share ideas. There never seems to be a resolution or at least a consensus reach in the end when dealing with this subject. Does the Bible clearly outline what baptism is, what it's for, and the like? Or, is it a subject that we can never come to an agreement on due to not having enough info to build a definitive Biblical case?

So for this thread, my goal is to see if we can drop some preconceptions and do all we can to get a clear understanding as it pertains to what the Bible says about baptism.

Baptism is a means of participation in the resurrection, a means of being "in Christ" and a member of His church. The reason people can't come to a an agreement of the subject of baptism is due to faulty teaching on the subject and faulty reasoning. Christians use flawed logic and arguments in an attempt to reject what the Scriptures say about baptism. The Bible clearly explains what Baptism is and what it is for. It is for the remission of sins. I am currently writing a paper on baptism which addresses the necessity of it. the paper will also address those illogical arguments used to try to negate it.

 

[Butch5]

Webb, you know he's talking about the singularity of Christ and being baptized into one NAME, not many as the tradition was of the day. A point that is very easy to support right from the NT. There is no division in Christ. There are no factions in the body of Christ. None of this, 'I was baptized into this person's name, or this person's name'. Christ is singular.

The Bible plainly talks about different baptisms. So we know he isn't talking about that.

Hi Jethro
In my post # 48 I invited any on this forum to discuss this on the one-on-one. "Any" includes you.
God bless

Not necessary.

One, maybe two posts in this thread is sufficient to sew the argument up.

But thank you anyway.

Hey Jethro,

Where do you add a signature? I can't find it anywhere.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Baptism is a means of participation in the resurrection, a means of being "in Christ" and a member of His church.

When you refer to it being a means of participation in the resurrection, why resurrection are you referring to? According to the scriptures, ALL who are in the graves will be resurrected. Some will be resurrected to life and others to damnation (which I believe to be the 2nd death from which their is no resurrection). Additionally it would appear that a 1st fruits was to be raised during the time of Jesus generation that would get to reign with Him and have a place of authority in the Kingdom while the hope of the rest of mankind was simply life, age-lasting (most likely on the Earth).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Hey Jethro,

Where do you add a signature? I can't find it anywhere.

Click 'Settings' in the upper RH corner.

Then on the very left side, under the 'My Settings' block, click 'Edit Signature'.

That what you're looking for?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Born of water--repentance (the natural aspect of the nation of God's people) Born 'again' of the Spirit--(the spiritual aspect of the nation of God's people) God's people are born of water and Spirit. Repentance, the washing away of the deeds of the flesh,

I fail to see how being born of water and repentance can be seen as synonomous based on what we are shown in the scriptures about repentance.

Ask yourself what 'born of water' would have meant to Nicodemus, a Jew, in John 3.

Then read this:

"10 For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; 2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea..." (1 Corinthians 10:1-2 NASB)

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Ask yourself what 'born of water' would have meant to Nicodemus, a Jew, in John 3.

That is the crux of the issue, ain't it. What does 'born of water' refer to? In the immediate context of the 1st century, I believe the best case is that it likely referred to the practice of water baptism as it had become very commonplace for the Jews to use this act at that time as a sort of new birth or rite of passage. In looking at the 1 Cor 10 passage, as well as the Exodus, we read nothing of a new birth associated with the 'baptism' that occurred during the exodus.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Ask yourself what 'born of water' would have meant to Nicodemus, a Jew, in John 3.

That is the crux of the issue, ain't it. What does 'born of water' refer to? In the immediate context of the 1st century, I believe the best case is that it likely referred to the practice of water baptism as it had become very commonplace for the Jews to use this act...

Let me stop you here.

It was commonplace for the Jews to use this act for what? (Think John's baptism).

In looking at the 1 Cor 10 passage, as well as the Exodus, we read nothing of a new birth associated with the 'baptism' that occurred during the exodus.

Right. It does not signify the 'new' birth, but rather the first one.

 

[lowrab777]

BORNE OF WATER meaning you agree to lay down your life according to the law that you deserve to die for your faults , and for the remission of those faults / sins. BONE OF THE SPIRIT meaning you agree to respect GODS RULE and accept JESUS as your savior unto the Holy Spiritual creation / a son of GOD / [metamorphosize] what you are and become something more glorious more useful, and more cherished by the FATHER

How do you come to these definitions of being born of water and being born of the Spirit?

BORNE OF WATER meaning you agree to lay down your life according to the law that you deserve to die for your faults , and for the remission of those faults / sins.
In other words repentance. The borne of water statement simply sums up the being borne and dying by water- you may well like to hink of it as
KILLED OF WATER, but that term alone I feel does not place enough emphassis what it means to be a child of the flesh that is to be borne corruptable because of GODS LAW/( the knowledge of good and evil.)
Mat 3:6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.
Mat 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
The pharasees did not have the heart to change what they were.
(put the old man to death.)as it is termed. And John responded here in :8
Mat 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
Mat 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
Mat 3:10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance:..............
I will encourage you to study what exacty the terminalogy in these few scriptures imply.

Rom_6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
2Co_5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Eph_4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

BONE OF THE SPIRIT meaning you agree to respect GODS RULE and accept JESUS as your savior unto the Holy Spiritual creation / a son of GOD / [metamorphosize] what you are and become something more glorious more useful, and more cherished by the FATHER
John continues....
Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
The phrase baptize you with fire clearly implies to burn you up. Naturaly if a thing is burned only the purest elements remain all the stuble and or parishable elements will be destroyed,....
Again I encourage you to study the terms used in these few passages
Oba_1:18 And the house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Joseph a flame, and the house of Esau for stubble, and they shall kindle in them, and devour them; and there shall not be any remaining of the house of Esau; for the LORD hath spoken it.
Nah_1:10 For while they be folden together as thorns, and while they are drunken as drunkards, they shall be devoured as stubble fully dry.
Mal_4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
1Co_3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

John continues.......
Mat 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
Clearly here it is obvious to me that the wheat is the desired element / the thing to be cherished, and not the chaff which is the thing to be burned with fire.

BORNE OF WATER meaning you agree to lay down your life according to the law that you deserve to die for your faults , and for the remission of those faults / sins. BONE OF THE SPIRIT meaning you agree to respect GODS RULE and accept JESUS as your savior unto,........
>The Holy Spiritual creation / a son of GOD / [metamorphosize] what you are and become something more glorious more useful, and more cherished by the FATHER
Joh_1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Rom_8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Gal_4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Gal_4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father
It is pretty clear to me that if we are Gods children borne of his spirit then he does Cherish that creation,.... For it is the completion of the project that cost him his own human son.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Initially there was John's baptism which he described as an immersion in water to show repentance. John then mentioned the Christ and Jesus being one that would administer 2 baptisms, one of Spirit and one of fire. John's baptism was a water baptism that was in line with the Jewish practiced of his day. Let us note that

symbolic purification by water became part of early Jewish tradition. This was immersion or baptism for Gentile converts to Judaism. Though the only Biblical requirement for entrance into the covenant was circumcision, baptism became an added requisite. No one knows exactly when or by whom the requirements were changed to include baptism, but it was before the time of Jesus. We know this, because debates on the subject of proselyte baptism are recorded between rabbinic schools of Shammai and Hillel, both contemporaries of Jesus. Whereas the school of Shammai stressed circumcision as the point of transition, the Hillelites considered baptism most important because it portrayed spiritual cleansing and the beginning of a new life. (http://www.jewsforjesus.org/publications/issues/2_10/baptism)

Now let's look at the following text from Luke 3:

Luke 3:7 And as he (John) saw the crowds coming out to be baptized by him, he said: 'Children of vipers; Who has scared you into running from the coming rage? 8 Produce the type of fruit that shows you're ready for repentance. And don't say of yourselves, We have AbraHam as our father; because, I tell you that God has the power to raise children of AbraHam from these stones! 9 Why, the ax is now lying at the roots of the trees, and every tree that doesn't produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire!' 10 So the crowds asked him: 'Then, what should we do?'

11 And he replied: 'He that has two pairs of underclothes, Should share them with he who has none. And those who have something to eat, Should do the very same thing.' 12 Why, even tax collectors came to be baptized. And they asked him: 'Teacher, what should we do?' 13 And he replied: 'Just collect a fair tax.' 14 Then, when those in the military asked him, 'What should we do?' he said: 'Don't harass or falsely accuse. Be happy with just your provisions.'
15 And because the people were looking for [the Messiah], everyone was wondering this in their hearts, about John: 'Could he be the Anointed One?' 16 But John answered them all, saying:
'My part is to baptize in water. But, someone that's greater is coming, Whose sandals I'm unfit to untie; And he'll baptize you people with Spirit and fire. 17 'His shovel is now in his hand, And he'll sweep his threshing floor clean. He'll take the wheat to his storehouse, But, he'll burn the chaff with unquenchable fire.' 18 Yes, he said many encouraging things as he preached the good news to the people.

In the passage above we are given information regarding 3 baptisms. There's John's baptism of repentance in water which is very similar to what the Jews of his day practiced as well as what the early 1st century Christians practiced. The other two were 'baptisms' that were to be administered by Jesus. One, a baptism of Spirit and the other, a baptism of fire.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What Jesus is saying to Nicodemus is it's not enough to be a Jew to see the kingdom of God--born into that kingdom, symbolically speaking, via Moses and the law. A person must also be born 'again', or 'from above' by the Spirit of God.

Water is water baptism in John 3. Not as a legalistic on/off switch for salvation, but as a metonymy for everything it means to be an obedient, repentant, Jew in the kingdom of God. But Moses is not enough. You must be born 'again'.

So to use this passage as a proof text that water baptism is a required work that must be done in order to be saved is missing the very important point of what Jesus is saying. Moses and repentance is not enough. You must be born 'again', by the Spirit, not just 'born' of the waters of repentance.

Repentance washes away the deeds of the body.

The Holy Spirit, secured by faith, washes the Spirit of a man.

Both are necessary to see the kingdom of God.

"22 Gold, silver, bronze, iron, tin, lead 23 and anything else that can withstand fire must be put through the fire (the Spirit of a man), and then it will be clean. But it must also be purified with the water of cleansing. And whatever cannot withstand fire (flesh and blood) must be put through that water. " (Numbers 31:22-23 NIV)

Water baptism = repentance

Water baptism has no power in and of itself. Repentance, coupled with faith, does.

 

[Sparkey]

Baptism is not a new ordinance.

We find many references to various 'baptisms' in the bible. Hebrews 6:1-2, gives it as "baptisms" - plural

• The baptism (relating to the creation to life) Genesis 1 & 7; 2 Peter 3: 6-7 2.
• The baptism of Moses from Egypt - Exodus 14:19-31; 1 Corinthians 10: 1-4
• The baptism of Ritual Cleansing - Leviticus 8: 5-9; Numbers 8: 6-7; 19:13, 20
• The baptism of John unto repentance - Matthew 3: 1-6 5.
• The baptism of Jesus into His Body - Romans 6:3-5 6.
• The baptism in the Spirit of God for ministry - Matthew 3:11 & Luke 3:16 7.
• The baptism of fire for purification - Matthew 3:11 & Luke 3:16; 1 Peter 4:12-16

No, I'm not trying to list 7 different "baptisms" but, instead, am listing significant truths about the baptisms spoken of in the Bible. There are likely more than what occurs to me at this moment. The base meaning of the word includes washing and Jesus spoke to the habit of Pharisees who would wash daily (upon rising) then go forth literally saying, "Touch me not, for I am holier than thou." --See Isa 65:5

I've also heard it said that the "baptism of fire" refers to punishment and would reply that Peter understood all too well what it meant. I don't disagree with what is said but would urge to recall the ordeal that Peter went through prior to the crucifixion of The Christ. He was told that Satan desired to sift him as wheat. I can't imagine. But from this and after the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, what has become of our beloved saint? Would he agree with James who admonishes that we consider it our chiefest source of Joy when we fall into various trials?

Peter and others were told that the "cup from which the Lord drank" would be shared by him. There is much fear and trembling in those who do know that first step toward wisdom, the "fear of the Lord." Those who submit and trust God and remain during that winnowing process come out better equipped for the purpose that we are all indeed created for: To speak forth the Word of Truth.

Baptisms: One of the foundational doctrines of our faith. Needed and heeded here and now.