What's What With Baptism?

[Guest]

True, some have been baptized who were faithless but that's besides the point. Jesus said He that believes and is baptized shall be saved". Notice Jesus said "and" Baptism without belief is invalid and belief without baptism is likewise. Why can't we take what Jesus said at "face value"?

That's beside the point? That's the whole point Webb. Yes, he that believes and is baptized shall be saved. Notice Jesus said "believes". The baptism in this sentence is spiritual. Holy Spirit baptism is spiritual. Spiritual as in having FAITH.

 

[Webb]

There's nothing wrong with water baptism. There are plenty of people who receive water baptisms when their adults but still do not have faith in their hearts. How is immersion, sprinkling or pouring relevant.

what about the ethiopian mud puddle?

Please not that Webb did not post that. Thank you.

 

[Webb]

True, some have been baptized who were faithless but that's besides the point. Jesus said He that believes and is baptized shall be saved". Notice Jesus said "and" Baptism without belief is invalid and belief without baptism is likewise. Why can't we take what Jesus said at "face value"?

That's beside the point? That's the whole point Webb. Yes, he that believes and is baptized shall be saved. Notice Jesus said "believes". The baptism in this sentence is spiritual. Holy Spirit baptism is spiritual. Spiritual as in having FAITH.

As I've previously stated, the baptism spoken of by Jesus in Mk.16:15,16 is a command. Read it. Read Matt.28:19-20, its a command. Human hands do the baptizing. Holy Spirit baptism was a promise, not a command, read it. Jesus is the administrator of Holy Spirit baptism. Read it. BTW, who is to say that water baptism is not "spiritual"? Jesus commanded it!

Finally, I do not have time to spend like this. I will, however, gladly discuss this subject on the one-on-one forum with any of you. In that way we can discuss and search the scriptures (Jn.5:39, Acts 17:11) at our leisure and without interference.
God bless

 

[lowrab777]

Please not that Webb did not post that. Thank you.

:dunno

 

[lowrab777]

Ok as for me and my baptism I know that the physical act did not grant me salvation,.....
However the spirit that existed in me when I decided that I needed to be baptized was A sure proof to myself that I needed to do it strictly because I was compelled to do so,... It was none other than the Holy Spirit teaching me that I needed to obey what Jesus and John had commanded me to do,.....
I will never forget the practical WISDOM that the guys who baptized me imparted to me that day,... They both agreed as they asked me..
"Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the son of GOD?"
"Have you stopped sinning and repented of your sins ?"
"have you accepted JESUS CHRIST as your savior?"
then they asked me,....
"Do you understand that you will not be able to stop sinning?"
I knew,.... I did know,.... spite every intention I had to not sin again I knew.
And that is the very reason why I knew that I must and needed to be Baptized, It is for the REMISSION / FORGIVENESS OF SIN.
Being baptized is not the receiving of salvation.
IT IS THE REALIZATION THAT WE DESERVE TO DIE, AND THAT WE NEED JESUS CHRIST TO ACTIVELY BECOME OUR LIVING SAVIOR BECAUSE WE CANNOT ACHIEVE WHAT IS REQUIRED OF US.
And so by physically performing the act of baptism we agree with GOD that we should be dead right then and there.
IT IS AN HONORABLE ACT OF HUMILITY.
As if in that very place at that very moment we lay down our lives, for the sake inadequacy and the acknowledgement of JESUS as our only way to ever be reconciled to GOD because of our nature.

I wonder did any one even read this ?
and does this help?

 

[Guest]

As I've previously stated, the baptism spoken of by Jesus in Mk.16:15,16 is a command. Read it. Read Matt.28:19-20, its a command. Human hands do the baptizing. Holy Spirit baptism was a promise, not a command, read it. Jesus is the administrator of Holy Spirit baptism. Read it. BTW, who is to say that water baptism is not "spiritual"? Jesus commanded it!

Finally, I do not have time to spend like this. I will, however, gladly discuss this subject on the one-on-one forum with any of you. In that way we can discuss and search the scriptures (Jn.5:39, Acts 17:11) at our leisure and without interference.
God bless

I found God when I was broke, suicidal, homeless and jobless while living at my mom's house at the age of 24. Nobody 'laid' hands on me. Before I went to bed, I asked God for forgiveness and help. God came and filled me with the Holy Spirit that night because I believed in my heart that he was God. There was no water involved or laying on hands. It was just me and God. Do you understand. God is simple Webb. Stop turning it into religion.

 

[Guest]

I do not have time to spend like this?? What. All you gotta do is post [MENTION=77786]Webb[/MENTION] for notifications.

 

[Webb]

I do not have time to spend like this?? What. All you gotta do is post [MENTION=77786]Webb[/MENTION] for notifications.

Hi Urk

As I wrote previously so say I now again, should you or any on this forum wish to discuss this on the one-on-one all you need do is "ask and you shall receive". If not I have not the time to sit by this pc all day. Again, ask and you shall receive. I am set for the defense of God's inspired word.
God bless

 

[lowrab777]

I will never forget the practical WISDOM that the guys who baptized me imparted to me that day,... They both agreed as they asked me..
"Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the son of GOD?"
"Have you stopped sinning and repented of your sins ?"
"have you accepted JESUS CHRIST as your savior?"
then they asked me,....
"Do you understand that you will not be able to stop sinning?"
I knew,.... I did know,.... spite every intention I had to not sin again I knew.
And that is the very reason why I knew that I must and needed to be Baptized, It is for the REMISSION / FORGIVENESS OF SIN.
Being baptized is not the receiving of salvation.
IT IS THE REALIZATION THAT WE DESERVE TO DIE, AND THAT WE NEED JESUS CHRIST TO ACTIVELY BECOME OUR LIVING SAVIOR BECAUSE WE CANNOT ACHIEVE WHAT IS REQUIRED OF US.
And so by physically performing the act of baptism we agree with GOD that we should be dead right then and there.
IT IS AN HONORABLE ACT OF HUMILITY.
As if in that very place at that very moment we lay down our lives, for the sake of inadequacy and the acknowledgement of JESUS as our only way to ever be reconciled to GOD because of our nature.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Re: What's What With Baptism? Bathe, Breathe, Burn

Not sure what "we" you are talking about. It appears there can be no consensus.

Based on the statement of John, a logical conclusion we may draw is that the baptism of the Spirit and with fire are used in contrast to one another with the baptism of the Spirit being favorable while the baptism of fire being a punishment or part of the wrath both Jesus and John warned their contemporaries about.

The 'we' I referred to in the above statement was the reader of the Luke 3 text. From the reading of the full context of that particular text, a conclusion that can be drawn is that the baptism of the Spirit is in stark contrast to the baptism with fire with one being a gift while the other being a wrathful punishment.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Well of course you don't believe that, you're not a christian. Get saved first by the literal act, and then talk to me. Cheers.

Being a Christian doesn't equate to sharing in the belief you expressed Urk. THe fact that you may be a professing Christian has nothing to do with whether or not your claim has any viability. The issue is not what one wants to think or believe, but instead it is WHAT DOES THE TEXT SAY. What I am trying to do is go by what was written to form a conclusion instead of forming one without considering ALL the scriptures have to say on the matter.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

What bothers me most about these types of discussions is that most posters tend to offer personal testimony as if it some equates in value to what was written in the scriptures. I hate to sound mean, but I'm gonna be blunt here; IT MATTERS NOT HOW YOU FEEL OR WHAT YOUR EXPERIENCES WERE! The issue instead is what.....do.......the.........scriptures........say!

For the course of this thread so far, I have only included discussed texts in the gospels and Acts 2 that pertain to baptism. I left off Mark 16:19 and Matthew 28:19 because according to scholars, those texts are not reliable and are quite likely additions to the original writings. So far the gospels have depicted baptism as something individuals, particularly Jews of the 1st century submitted themselves to per the words of Jesus and John after making a decision to repent and live righteously. It would appear that this baptism which followed repentance was something that got those individuals a pass from the coming wrath of God as well as qualified some for the gift of God's Holy Spirit and a place in the long awaited Kingdom of God.

The next mention of baptism I believe comes in Acts 8, let's start there and see what else the scriptures reveal as we attempt to look at the WHOLE COUNCIL of scripture related to this issue BEFORE forming our dogmatic conclusions.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What bothers me most about these types of discussions is that most posters tend to offer personal testimony as if it some equates in value to what was written in the scriptures. I hate to sound mean, but I'm gonna be blunt here; IT MATTERS NOT HOW YOU FEEL OR WHAT YOUR EXPERIENCES WERE! The issue instead is what.....do.......the.........scriptures........say!

For the course of this thread so far, I have only included discussed texts in the gospels and Acts 2 that pertain to baptism. I left off Mark 16:19 and Matthew 28:19 because according to scholars, those texts are not reliable and are quite likely additions to the original writings. So far the gospels have depicted baptism as something individuals, particularly Jews of the 1st century submitted themselves to per the words of Jesus and John after making a decision to repent and live righteously. It would appear that this baptism which followed repentance was something that got those individuals a pass from the coming wrath of God as well as qualified some for the gift of God's Holy Spirit and a place in the long awaited Kingdom of God.

The next mention of baptism I believe comes in Acts 8, let's start there and see what else the scriptures reveal as we attempt to look at the WHOLE COUNCIL of scripture related to this issue BEFORE forming our dogmatic conclusions.

What I found was even if you have a scripturally supported and defensible experience (and doctrine) it still gets dismissed by the 'baptism saves' doctrine as inadmissable and unscriptural.

I honestly don't see the point of the argument in an already water baptized church. Perhaps the handful of denoms that don't water baptize their people have a forum where they can be addressed.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Eph 4:5 is true. But it does not dismiss other Scripture. Our job is to understand, not debate.

Ephesians 4:5= 1 baptism. What is it about that that we don't understand? One, uno, 1! One plus 0 = ONE. No debate intended. By the time Paul wrote Ephesians (about 65 AD) there was only one baptism. Either that or Paul led by the Holy Spirit was misguided.

God bless

Webb, you know he's talking about the singularity of Christ and being baptized into one NAME, not many as the tradition was of the day. A point that is very easy to support right from the NT. There is no division in Christ. There are no factions in the body of Christ. None of this, 'I was baptized into this person's name, or this person's name'. Christ is singular.

The Bible plainly talks about different baptisms. So we know he isn't talking about that.

 

[lowrab777]

What bothers me most about these types of discussions is that most posters tend to offer personal testimony as if it some equates in value to what was written in the scriptures. I hate to sound mean, but I'm gonna be blunt here; IT MATTERS NOT HOW YOU FEEL OR WHAT YOUR EXPERIENCES WERE! The issue instead is what.....do.......the.........scriptures........sa y!

Hey ToT,
For what its worth, I consider myself a true christian, and I Know that I have the holy spirit.
I have one thing to submit to you.

WE ARE NOT TO WORSHIP THE BIBLE,.......
WE WORSHIP THE ONE TRUE AND LIVING GOD.
Our testimonies are the proof of that which is the spiritual manifestation of THE SPIRITUAL GOD. It would serve you well consider that,.....
THE TESTIMONY OF A TRUE BELIEVER IS practically worthy of scripture being that it is
GODS WORDS and SPIRITUAL INTERACTION as revealed to that person.
WE WORSHIP GOD,... NOT THE BIBLE,.. the bible is a message system and it is old it has been translated it has weathered and some rough edges can be found in it due to the fact that it is none other than a message, It is of course GODS WORD but it is still made up of PAPER AND INK and or electronic data THE SPIRITUAL MANIFESTATION OF GODS WORD CAN BE FOUND IN THE TESTIMONY OF HIS PEOPLE

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Hey ToT, For what its worth, I consider myself a true christian, and I Know that I have the holy spirit. I have one thing to submit to you. WE ARE NOT TO WORSHIP THE BIBLE,....... WE WORSHIP THE ONE TRUE AND LIVING GOD. Our testimonies are the proof of that which is the spiritual manifestation of THE SPIRITUAL GOD. It would serve you well consider that,..... THE TESTIMONY OF A TRUE BELIEVER IS practically worthy of scripture being that it is GODS WORDS and SPIRITUAL INTERACTION as revealed to that person. WE WORSHIP GOD,... NOT THE BIBLE,.. the bible is a message system and it is old it has been translated it has weathered and some rough edges can be found in it due to the fact that it is none other than a message, It is of course GODS WORD but it is still made up of PAPER AND INK and or electronic data THE SPIRITUAL MANIFESTATION OF GODS WORD CAN BE FOUND IN THE TESTIMONY OF HIS PEOPLE

Irresistable force meet immovable object. You seem fully convinced of your belief and I respect your right to feel that way, but I disagree with what it is that you believe to be fact. When you say things like: Our testimonies are the proof of that which is the spiritual manifestation of THE SPIRITUAL GOD, my response will always be a skeptical one until someone can prove to me that such a statement is true.
If a believer takes the additude that says we don't worship the Bible, what I hear is them saying, I pick and choose what to accept from the Bible based on my own subjective perspective. This person has no foundation other than their own mind and what they allow to influence it upon which to base their beliefs. I'm not saying a believer should "worship" the Bible, but I would think it wise to view it as authoritive and the basis from which beliefs are built and supported. The testimony of a "true believer" is but the testimony of a human being that can oftentimes be flawed, biased, tunnel-visioned, and short-sighted. Such testimony is in no way comparable to scripture and scriptural authority.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

What I found was even if you have a scripturally supported and defensible experience (and doctrine) it still gets dismissed by the 'baptism saves' doctrine as inadmissable and unscriptural.

It appears that the 'baptism only' crowd overstates what is taught in the scriptures. What we find when we look to the texts is that baptism is quite frequently mentioned as something that was A PART of the salvation process much like repentance and faith. The issue they have seems to center around was whether or not baptism was mandated as something that was required for salvation. Admittedly, a strong case can be made that it was, but we also have various texts that speak of salvation that do not speak of baptism.

 

[farouk]

In Scripture it is a symbol linked with the public declaration of faith.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

In Scripture it is a symbol linked with the public declaration of faith.

Where do you find idea this in the scriptures?

 

[farouk]

In Scripture it is a symbol linked with the public declaration of faith.

Where do you find idea this in the scriptures?

Being born again is the inward and spiritual aspect. Acts 2.41 speaks of the outward aspect.

We shouldn't confuse the two; many do so.