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What's What With Baptism?

Being born again is the inward and spiritual aspect. Acts 2.41 speaks of the outward aspect. We shouldn't confuse the two; many do so.


Not trying to confuse the 2, but I still fail to see where in scripture baptism is described as a symbol linked with the public declaration of faith. The text in Acts 2 doesn't make that claim.
 
Being born again is the inward and spiritual aspect. Acts 2.41 speaks of the outward aspect. We shouldn't confuse the two; many do so.


Not trying to confuse the 2, but I still fail to see where in scripture baptism is described as a symbol linked with the public declaration of faith. The text in Acts 2 doesn't make that claim.

I'm not going to argue with you. You may wish to argue, but I don't. Clearly there was a very public aspect to the events of Acts 2. Clearly being born again is an inward and spiritual matter.
 
I'm not going to argue with you. You may wish to argue, but I don't. Clearly there was a very public aspect to the events of Acts 2. Clearly being born again is an inward and spiritual matter.


It's not about arguing, it's about doing all we can to best understand what was written. In John 3 Jesus in his discourse Nicodemus said the following:

'I tell you the truth; Unless someone is born from above (born again), he can't see the Kingdom of God.'
4 So NicoDemos asked: 'How can a man be born after he's old… he can't go back into his mother's womb a second time to be born, can he?'
5 And Jesus replied: 'I tell you the truth; Unless someone is born from water and Spirit, he can't enter the Kingdom of God. 6 Because, things that have been born from flesh are fleshly, and things that have been born from the Spirit are spiritual. 7 However, don't be surprised because I told you that people have to be born again…

Being born again and being saved aren't necessarily synonomous. If we look at what the scriptures say about each, we find some subtle differences. One could say that all of those born again were of the number of the saved whereas all of the saved were NOT necessarily recipients of the gift of God's Holy Spirit. Being born of the water and the spirit, a combination that seems to equate to being born from abovr (born again), was an apparent necessity in order for one to have a place in/enter the long awaited Kingdom of God.
 
I'm not going to argue with you. You may wish to argue, but I don't. Clearly there was a very public aspect to the events of Acts 2. Clearly being born again is an inward and spiritual matter.


It's not about arguing, it's about doing all we can to best understand what was written. In John 3 Jesus in his discourse Nicodemus said the following:

'I tell you the truth; Unless someone is born from above (born again), he can't see the Kingdom of God.'
4 So NicoDemos asked: 'How can a man be born after he's old… he can't go back into his mother's womb a second time to be born, can he?'
5 And Jesus replied: 'I tell you the truth; Unless someone is born from water and Spirit, he can't enter the Kingdom of God. 6 Because, things that have been born from flesh are fleshly, and things that have been born from the Spirit are spiritual. 7 However, don't be surprised because I told you that people have to be born again…

Being born again and being saved aren't necessarily synonomous. If we look at what the scriptures say about each, we find some subtle differences. One could say that all of those born again were of the number of the saved whereas all of the saved were NOT necessarily recipients of the gift of God's Holy Spirit. Being born of the water and the spirit, a combination that seems to equate to being born from abovr (born again), was an apparent necessity in order for one to have a place in/enter the long awaited Kingdom of God.

Well, for a start this is false.

Paul in Romans 8 says: 'If any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His'.

But we are digressing from baptism.
 
Well, for a start this is false.


Which part?


Paul in Romans 8 says: 'If any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His'.


Agreed, but how does this relate to the salvation spoken of in the gospel texts we have been discussing?

But we are digressing from baptism.
We do do that (digress) from time to time here, don't we.
Getting back to baptism, I would make the case that it (water baptism in Jesus name) was a qualifier for receiving the gift of the Spirit of God. John 3:3-5, Acts 2:38, as well as examples found in texts like Acts 9:17-18 and Acts 19:5 can be used to support that idea.
 
Romans 8 says if you don't have the Spirit of Christ, you're not born again. But it's not water baptism that brings the Spirit of God indwell at the new birth.
 
But it's not water baptism that brings the Spirit of God indwell at the new birth.


I would agree, but only to an extent. The scriptures would appear to indicate that the force that brings/sends the Spirit to people is Jesus, the Christ. Baptism certainly cannot take His role. However, based on what the scriptures show the reader as it pertains to the things said by Jesus' apostles related to baptism as well as the receipt of the God's Holy Spirit, it appears that the repentant believer had to be baptized in order to be amongst the number that would get to be Spirit-filled.
 
Unless someone is born from water and Spirit, he can't enter the Kingdom of God.


What does water do? Water cleanses. What did Jesus say to the Pharisees? He told them they were cleaning the outside of the cup and it was the inside that needed to be clean first. So this is talking about cleansing. How does one cleanse the inside of the cup at the time of accepting Jesus as Savior and Lord? By confessing and repenting for the forgiveness of sin. Cleanse the inside of the cup and the Spirit comes to indwell and make the new creature in Christ (born again or anew).

That's what I see anyway.
 
But it's not water baptism that brings the Spirit of God indwell at the new birth.


I would agree, but only to an extent. The scriptures would appear to indicate that the force that brings/sends the Spirit to people is Jesus, the Christ. Baptism certainly cannot take His role. However, based on what the scriptures show the reader as it pertains to the things said by Jesus' apostles related to baptism as well as the receipt of the God's Holy Spirit, it appears that the repentant believer had to be baptized in order to be amongst the number that would get to be Spirit-filled.

Oh so you're now talking about the daily, sanctifying aspect of being filled with the Spirit, rather than being indwelt by Him from the new birth onwards. I see.
 
Unless someone is born from water and Spirit, he can't enter the Kingdom of God.


What does water do? Water cleanses. What did Jesus say to the Pharisees? He told them they were cleaning the outside of the cup and it was the inside that needed to be clean first. So this is talking about cleansing. How does one cleanse the inside of the cup at the time of accepting Jesus as Savior and Lord? By confessing and repenting for the forgiveness of sin. Cleanse the inside of the cup and the Spirit comes to indwell and make the new creature in Christ (born again or anew).

That's what I see anyway.
@Deborah13 :

Yes, Ephesians speaks of the 'washing of water by the word' (Ephesians 5.26).

Blessings.
 
I'm not saying a believer should "worship" the Bible, but I would think it wise to view it as authoritive and the basis from which beliefs are built and supported.

Just to make things clear,.....
I never said that the bible should not be viewed as the authoritative basis from which beliefs should be built and supported.
I did say the bible is GODS MESSAGE system to man kind and it is full of GODS WORDS.

I was simply giving trying to warn you,.. When people worship the bible they hold GOD to the translation in which they favor.
I would have you warned by this for the simple fact that scholars are vulnerable to the doctrines of men. And if you want use scripture to make an idea fit its authority, you better make sure your scripture hasnt been taken out of context or miss translated in any way.
Isa_28:13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
And By the way you should definitely compare any testimony with scripture to insure its validity. Go ahead.
{I will never forget the practical WISDOM that the guys who baptized me imparted to me that day,... They both agreed as they asked me..
"Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the son of GOD?"
"Have you stopped sinning and repented of your sins ?"
"have you accepted JESUS CHRIST as your savior?"
then they asked me,....
"Do you understand that you will not be able to stop sinning?"
I knew,.... I did know,.... spite every intention I had to not sin again I knew.
And that is the very reason why I knew that I must and needed to be Baptized, It is for the REMISSION / FORGIVENESS OF SIN.
Being baptized is not the receiving of salvation.
IT IS THE REALIZATION THAT WE DESERVE TO DIE, AND THAT WE NEED JESUS CHRIST TO ACTIVELY BECOME OUR LIVING SAVIOR BECAUSE WE CANNOT ACHIEVE WHAT IS REQUIRED OF US.
And so by physically performing the act of baptism we agree with GOD that we should be dead right then and there.
IT IS AN HONORABLE ACT OF HUMILITY.
As if in that very place at that very moment we lay down our lives, for the sake of inadequacy and the acknowledgement of JESUS as our only way to ever be reconciled to GOD because of our nature.}


The testimony of a true believer goes hand in hand with GODS WORD I feel like you devalued that testimony with this statement

What bothers me most about these types of discussions is that most posters tend to offer personal testimony as if it some equates in value to what was written in the scriptures. I hate to sound mean, but I'm gonna be blunt here; IT MATTERS NOT HOW YOU FEEL OR WHAT YOUR EXPERIENCES WERE! The issue instead is what.....do.......the.........scriptures........sa y!

How else would Gods gift get spread to the unbelievers,.. I mean really? Of what value is GODS gift if it cannot be appreciated by men??
And of what value is the lamp if you hide it under your BIBLE ??? Instead it aught to be put out on a lampstand perhaps even a lampstand on top of your bible so as to lead people to it, so all who are near it may be able to see the light, and learn from where it came.
If the bible is supposed to be your food Then the testimony of the true believer is the salt,... It is not to be thrown out and trampled on.
If the testimony was a pearl it should be cherished and admired and not thrown into pig pin.
Disregarding the testimony is a thing that aught not to be done it is exactly what happened to the prophets.
 
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Jesus' apostles related to baptism as well as the receipt of the God's Holy Spirit, it appears that the repentant believer had to be baptized in order to be amongst the number that would get to be Spirit-filled.


Acts 10 YLT

44 While Peter is yet speaking these sayings, the Holy spirit fell upon all those hearing the word,
45 and those of the circumcision believing were astonished -- as many as came with Peter -- because also upon the nations the gift of the Holy Spirit hath been poured out,
46 for they were hearing them speaking with tongues and magnifying God.
47 Then answered Peter, `The water is any one able to forbid, that these may not be baptized, who the Holy Spirit did receive -- even as also we?'
48 he commanded them also to be baptized in the name of the Lord; then they besought him to remain certain days.
 
How else would Gods gift get spread to the unbelievers,.. I mean really? Of what value is GODS gift if it cannot be appreciated by men??
And of what value is the lamp if you hide it under your BIBLE ??? Instead it aught to be put out on a lampstand perhaps even a lampstand on top of your bible so as to lead people to it, so all who are near it may be able to see the light, and learn from where it came.
If the bible is supposed to be your food Then the testimony of the true believer is the salt,... It is not to be thrown out and trampled on.
If the testimony was a pearl it should be cherished and admired and not thrown into pig pin.
Disregarding the testimony is a thing that aught not to be done it is exactly what happened to the prophets.

:amen
 
I'm not going to argue with you. You may wish to argue, but I don't. Clearly there was a very public aspect to the events of Acts 2. Clearly being born again is an inward and spiritual matter.


It's not about arguing, it's about doing all we can to best understand what was written. In John 3 Jesus in his discourse Nicodemus said the following:

'I tell you the truth; Unless someone is born from above (born again), he can't see the Kingdom of God.'
4 So NicoDemos asked: 'How can a man be born after he's old… he can't go back into his mother's womb a second time to be born, can he?'
5 And Jesus replied: 'I tell you the truth; Unless someone is born from water and Spirit, he can't enter the Kingdom of God. 6 Because, things that have been born from flesh are fleshly, and things that have been born from the Spirit are spiritual. 7 However, don't be surprised because I told you that people have to be born again…

Being born again and being saved aren't necessarily synonomous. If we look at what the scriptures say about each, we find some subtle differences. One could say that all of those born again were of the number of the saved whereas all of the saved were NOT necessarily recipients of the gift of God's Holy Spirit. Being born of the water and the spirit, a combination that seems to equate to being born from abovr (born again), was an apparent necessity in order for one to have a place in/enter the long awaited Kingdom of God.

Born of water--repentance (the natural aspect of the nation of God's people)

Born 'again' of the Spirit--(the spiritual aspect of the nation of God's people)

God's people are born of water and Spirit. Repentance, the washing away of the deeds of the flesh, alone doesn't put you in the kingdom. Faith and repentance is how one sees the kingdom of God. Without the holiness of faith leading to repentance no one will see the kingdom (Hebrews 12:14 NIV). Though the Jews took great comfort in the effort of thier repentance apart from faith in God.

All through the scriptures you see the illustration of the truth 'natural first, spiritual second', and this pattern of how man moves from natural man's response to the Word of God to spiritual man's response to the Word of God.
 
BORNE OF WATER meaning you agree to lay down your life according to the law that you deserve to die for your faults , and for the remission of those faults / sins.
BONE OF THE SPIRIT meaning you agree to respect GODS RULE and accept JESUS as your savior unto the Holy Spiritual creation / a son of GOD / [metamorphosize] what you are and become something more glorious more useful, and more cherished by the FATHER
 
Eph 4:5 is true. But it does not dismiss other Scripture. Our job is to understand, not debate.

Ephesians 4:5= 1 baptism. What is it about that that we don't understand? One, uno, 1! One plus 0 = ONE. No debate intended. By the time Paul wrote Ephesians (about 65 AD) there was only one baptism. Either that or Paul led by the Holy Spirit was misguided.

God bless
Webb, you know he's talking about the singularity of Christ and being baptized into one NAME, not many as the tradition was of the day. A point that is very easy to support right from the NT. There is no division in Christ. There are no factions in the body of Christ. None of this, 'I was baptized into this person's name, or this person's name'. Christ is singular.

The Bible plainly talks about different baptisms. So we know he isn't talking about that.


Hi Jethro
In my post # 48 I invited any on this forum to discuss this on the one-on-one. "Any" includes you.
God bless
 
Eph 4:5 is true. But it does not dismiss other Scripture. Our job is to understand, not debate.

Ephesians 4:5= 1 baptism. What is it about that that we don't understand? One, uno, 1! One plus 0 = ONE. No debate intended. By the time Paul wrote Ephesians (about 65 AD) there was only one baptism. Either that or Paul led by the Holy Spirit was misguided.

God bless
Webb, you know he's talking about the singularity of Christ and being baptized into one NAME, not many as the tradition was of the day. A point that is very easy to support right from the NT. There is no division in Christ. There are no factions in the body of Christ. None of this, 'I was baptized into this person's name, or this person's name'. Christ is singular.

The Bible plainly talks about different baptisms. So we know he isn't talking about that.


Hi Jethro
In my post # 48 I invited any on this forum to discuss this on the one-on-one. "Any" includes you.
God bless
Not necessary.

One, maybe two posts in this thread is sufficient to sew the argument up.

But thank you anyway.
 
Webb, you know he's talking about the singularity of Christ and being baptized into one NAME, not many as the tradition was of the day. A point that is very easy to support right from the NT. There is no division in Christ. There are no factions in the body of Christ. None of this, 'I was baptized into this person's name, or this person's name'. Christ is singular.

The Bible plainly talks about different baptisms. So we know he isn't talking about that.


Hi Jethro
In my post # 48 I invited any on this forum to discuss this on the one-on-one. "Any" includes you.
God bless
Not necessary.

One, maybe two posts in this thread is sufficient to sew the argument up.

But thank you anyway.



It hasn't been sufficient thus far. However, I do respect your decision not to openly discuss this on the one-on-one.
Respectfully, webb
 
Oh so you're now talking about the daily, sanctifying aspect of being filled with the Spirit, rather than being indwelt by Him from the new birth onwards. I see.

I do not see there being a distinction between the two, frankly. Can you elaborate?

Unless someone is born from water and Spirit, he can't enter the Kingdom of God.

What does water do? Water cleanses. What did Jesus say to the Pharisees? He told them they were cleaning the outside of the cup and it was the inside that needed to be clean first. So this is talking about cleansing. How does one cleanse the inside of the cup at the time of accepting Jesus as Savior and Lord? By confessing and repenting for the forgiveness of sin. Cleanse the inside of the cup and the Spirit comes to indwell and make the new creature in Christ (born again or anew).

That's what I see anyway.

When you say: "So this is talking about cleansing", are you referring to water baptism? If so, why? What actually gets physically cleansed during baptism? Wet does not necessarily equal clean. The issue we would do well to clear up and hopefully come to an agreement on is what it means to be born of the water and of the Spirit. The problem with coming to a definitive conclusion is that there is not a lot of clarity given is the scriptures relating to this issue. As far as I am aware, the only texts that speaks of being (becoming) born again is the John 3 text. Other texts that use the terminology like 1 Peter 1:23, say nothing about the process of becoming born again as they are addressing those that have been been again already. So, from what can be gathered from John 3, readers are told that being born of water plus being born of Spirit equates to being born again and eligible to 'see' the kingdom of God.
So, what is being born of water and what is being born of Spirit?
 
Born of water--repentance (the natural aspect of the nation of God's people) Born 'again' of the Spirit--(the spiritual aspect of the nation of God's people) God's people are born of water and Spirit. Repentance, the washing away of the deeds of the flesh,


I fail to see how being born of water and repentance can be seen as synonomous based on what we are shown in the scriptures about repentance. Repentance is a change of heart/mind that results in a life that is lived in submission to the Christ.
As far as I can tell from what has been written, it seems as though being born of the Spirit is being gifted with God's Holy Spirit. If being born of water is baptism, as those that use Galations 3:27 to illustrate say, then it along with the receipt of God's Holy Spirit are both necessities in order for one to enter the Kingdom of God per the words of Jesus in John 3:5.

If we look at the books that come after the gospels, what we see time after time is the combination of baptism and receiving the Holy Spirit starting in Acts 2:38-41, Paul's conversion, Cornelius and his household, Acts 19, etc.
 
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