When did the Law pass or has it passed away?

[Mitspa]

And does the New Covenant annul previous covenants?

(Insert the necessary verse from Hebrews to say it has)

Hebrews 7.18-19

Show me where one is not to have sex with animals in the New Covenant please.

Do you really need a written rule to know this is not Gods will?

 

[Ryan]

And does the New Covenant annul previous covenants?

(Insert the necessary verse from Hebrews to say it has)

Hebrews 7.18-19

Show me where one is not to have sex with animals in the New Covenant please.

SEX WITH ANIMALS!! what kind of "christian" would even think of such an act?
If the Holy Spirit of God, The law written upon the heart! and the fact that Christ is always with a believer.

Will not keep you from having sex with animals? I doubt if one who has such an ungodly lust that the written code of the law will keep such a person from such evil acts.

"… for where no law is, there is no transgression" (Romans 4:15).

According to Paul, you cannot have sin without law. There are many passages showing that sin continues to exist today (Rom. 5:12; James 4:17; 1John 5:16-17), providing evidence that the obligation to observe the Law also continues to exist.

 

[childeye]

Thank You to our Father for His Spirit of Love that is our only goodness.

Curious, what test am I passing, or failing? :biglol

Thank you so very much for your cooperation in this experiment. An explanation is coming, but first I would ask you this: Are there any prayers or writings in the Torah that say that God is our Spiritual goodness?

implied that he is.
david and moses speak of the torah being inward.
Thank You to our Father for His Spirit of Love that is our only goodness

.

First of all AMEN. I'm glad you have said this. This to me is what the Torah is driving at, and I would agree there is that implication in where you cite David and Moses. But still it does not outright say it. And this I wonder at. Consequently, I am confident that His Spirit is in the words of the Torah, to those He reveals Himself to through the Words spoken therein. But it is also clear to me, that those who wrote the Torah by way of inspiration of the Holy Spirit had heard from God through some other means. Hence God could also reveal Himself apart from the Torah. Hence I think since the Torah is about God, it seems prudent to worship God over the Torah rather than not make that distinction. Wouldn't you agree?

 

[jasoncran]

of course, neither ryan nor I said that we should. but we need to look at It to see the meanings.

imagery. did you know that john, Ezekiel and moses all had the same vision of God. and the two men after moses saw mt.horeb in a vision.

 

[Mitspa]

Show me where one is not to have sex with animals in the New Covenant please.

SEX WITH ANIMALS!! what kind of "christian" would even think of such an act?
If the Holy Spirit of God, The law written upon the heart! and the fact that Christ is always with a believer.

Will not keep you from having sex with animals? I doubt if one who has such an ungodly lust that the written code of the law will keep such a person from such evil acts.

"… for where no law is, there is no transgression" (Romans 4:15).

According to Paul, you cannot have sin without law. There are many passages showing that sin continues to exist today (Rom. 5:12; James 4:17; 1John 5:16-17), providing evidence that the obligation to observe the Law also continues to exist.

The Holy Spirit is the law, Christ and His Commandment to love others as He loves is the royal law.

This is the point Paul makes to those who commit sexual sins?

KNOW YE NOT THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD DWELLS IN YOU?
Sin does continue and the strength of sin is the law.

But for a "born-again" believer, they are not under the law of moses nor are they judged by its written standard.
They are judged according to the "law of the Spirit" if a christian commits sexual sins, God will punish them. But even in this they are not judged by the law of moses.

Those who defile the temple of the Holy Spirit with sexual sins, should be warned! That God will not accept this. But as Paul shows us, they are not judged by the law of moses.

 

[childeye]

And does the New Covenant annul previous covenants?

(Insert the necessary verse from Hebrews to say it has)

Hebrews 7.18-19

Wow, Farouk. Great choice of scripture. Peace.

 

[childeye]

of course, neither ryan nor I said that we should. but we need to look at It to see the meanings.

imagery. did you know that john, Ezekiel and moses all had the same vision of God. and the two men after moses saw mt.horeb in a vision.

No I did not know that, as there are many things I do not know. I trust there are therefore many wonderful revelations in scripture that I have yet to fully appreciate. I rejoice with you those things that edify you and I want to thank you for responding to my request. May the Lord Lift up His countenance upon you and give you peace.

 

[JLB]

It's funny, you wanted me to recite what you had written, and I responded with a prayer that spoke to the heart of what you were asking. However, that wasn't good enough, you wanted me to say what you had said word for word because what I had written wasn't good enough. So I ask you, who is the one being legalistic here?

Why do people like me study, follow and incorporate Torah into our lives? Is Torah not the Word of God?

Is Jesus not the Torah made flesh as stated in John 1?

Did Jesus not lead a sinless life according to his Word and Torah?

Could Jesus contradict his own Word and preach another Gospel?

Could he preach against or change his Word? Malachi 3:6

Could Jesus preach obedience to himself and ignore the instructions from the Torah? John 10:30

Could Jesus contradict the Father?

I hope this stirs up some thought.

'...we are come ... unto Jesus, the Mediator of the new covenant...' Hebrews 12.24

And does the New Covenant annul previous covenants?

(Insert the necessary verse from Hebrews to say it has)

9 then He said, "Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God." He takes away the first that He may establish the second. 10 By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

 

[JLB]

Show me where one is not to have sex with animals in the New Covenant please.

SEX WITH ANIMALS!! what kind of "christian" would even think of such an act?
If the Holy Spirit of God, The law written upon the heart! and the fact that Christ is always with a believer.

Will not keep you from having sex with animals? I doubt if one who has such an ungodly lust that the written code of the law will keep such a person from such evil acts.

"… for where no law is, there is no transgression" (Romans 4:15).

According to Paul, you cannot have sin without law. There are many passages showing that sin continues to exist today (Rom. 5:12; James 4:17; 1John 5:16-17), providing evidence that the obligation to observe the Law also continues to exist.

This same Paul teaches us that "because of Transgressions the Law was added"
19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. Galatians 3:19

So there was sin before the Law of Moses, for it is written -

sin entered the world through man... Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. Romans 5:20

JLB

 

[Sparkey]

Show me where one is not to have sex with animals in the New Covenant please.

Mind if I take a shot at that one? Please? My answer might not fully satisfy you, but it could prevent a tragedy (only joking... I know you wouldn't even think of such a thing... )

But here goes, my quick reply: Recall the part of the Old Covenant that says the New Covenant will be written in your heart? Viola! I've shown you. Look there.

 

[evenifigoalone]

The NC mentions sexual immorality quite a bit, and from what I can see there is no reason not to believe that sexual immortality includes bestiality.

ETA: Just did a search on bestiality and the Bible, and I thought this site had a good response, especially the last paragraph: http://www.gotquestions.org/bestiality.html
There are things in the OT that obviously are general moral laws, and there are other things that were more or less specific to the Israelites' situation. That's my understanding, anyway.

 

[Ryan]

Disregard that. It's not my response. There was always a Spirit of God in the Torah. Think Genesis 1.

Yes I can see now after coming to Christ and through instruction by the Holy Spirit, that the goodness in us was there from the beginning by virtue of being created by the Creator. That which we call Love is His Spirit in us.

But please try and understand, that I was raised Catholic and we were told to love one another, but were not told that Love was God in us. To me, that was the major revelation by the Holy Spirit that changed my life. For it was the means by which I was able to esteem God as God. Genesis does not say to honor God as the Love within you, that I can recall. This is so important to me. The difference bewteen then and now is a complete reversal. Before when I thought I was to try and be good, when I would be good, it was like I thought god was saying "thank you" to me, and me saying "your welcome". Now when I do good, I say to Him, "Thank you", and He says, "Your welcome". Do you see the difference?

It's funny, you wanted me to recite what you had written, and I responded with a prayer that spoke to the heart of what you were asking. However, that wasn't good enough, you wanted me to say what you had said word for word because what I had written wasn't good enough. So I ask you, who is the one being legalistic here?

Why do people like me study, follow and incorporate Torah into our lives? Is Torah not the Word of God?

Is Jesus not the Torah made flesh as stated in John 1?

Did Jesus not lead a sinless life according to his Word and Torah?

Could Jesus contradict his own Word and preach another Gospel?

Could he preach against or change his Word? Malachi 3:6

Could Jesus preach obedience to himself and ignore the instructions from the Torah? John 10:30

Could Jesus contradict the Father?

I hope this stirs up some thought.

Indeed it does stir up thought. You are right, to me it wasn't good enough as in, it did not say what I had asked. I meant no offense and apologized beforehand with all humility and a sincere respect.

Did it speak to the heart of it? The Lord make His face shine upon you. If this means may God have His face be my face, then yes, I suppose it kind of speaks to the heart of it. It does not however clearly state that God is the Spirit of goodness in mankind. But it suggests He could be in that it makes supplication unto God. But what I get when I read it is, may you see or behold the face of God.
the Lord lift up His countenance upon you & grant you peace. This does seem to speak at the heart of the matter. What I get when I read it is, May God keep His personality upon you. Still it does not say clearly that God is the Love, the spiritual goodness in mankind. And again it is a supplication, as in may God be the goodness inside you, which also carries the implication that He may not be the goodness in side me.

At any rate, I said to not say it if you don't believe it. And you said it so I don't see any cause for disagreement. With all sincerity, I have nothing against the Torah nor anyones desire to study and find the treasures hidden therein. But I also find nothing wrong with worshipping God who inspired it. But I would not worship what is written over Him Who wrote it, and I'm sure you would agree. For any good lawyer can use these same words to cast accusation even as Satan used the Torah to tempt Jesus. Throughout history men have used scripture to justify atrocities in the Name of God, including the crucifying of the Christ, the persecution of the Jews, the inquisition etc...

Is Jesus not the Torah made flesh as stated in John 1? As I understand it, no, Jesus is not the Torah made flesh. The Word is indeed that which created every thing ever created including the Torah, and that is the Word that is Spirit not letter..

John 1:1-2 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God.
John 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Is the Torah spiritual?

"But now we are delivered from the law" - We are delivered from the condemnation of the Torah that came when we tried to follow it outside of faith and failed. Remember blessings and curses from the Torah (Deuteronomy 30:19)? What was the first curse of disobedience? Think of Adam and Eve.

"... being dead wherein we were held" - Because Jesus paid the penalty (by His death), for our violation of God's Torah, we have been released from this sentence (the fruit of unbelievers is death, Romans 7:5). We are not released from the entirety of Torah however, only certain aspects, (i.e., its condemnation) just as the woman in the analogy of Romans 7:1-4, was only released from certain aspects of the Torah.

"... serve in newness of spirit" - Those of the Spirit continue to "serve" (follow Torah - Romans 8:2-8)

"... not in the oldness of the letter." - Outside of faith, we can only grasp at the "letter of the Law." We are no longer to serve God in a lifeless spirit of self-righteous legalism, or misuse of God's Torah. We are now to follow it out of love of God, as Torah is holy, righteous and good (Romans 6:12), as well as spiritual (Romans 6:14).

Did Jesus not lead a sinless life according to his Word and Torah? To me, Jesus led a sinless life because he was conceived by the Holy Spirit and not of the seed of Adam..

What determined sin though? It was the Torah. If you would read Genesis - Deuteronomy as a Constitution, everything after the fact is commentary on the Constitution. As impossible as it is to change the US constitution, how much more impossible would it be to change God's constitution?

Could Jesus contradict his own Word and preach another Gospel? I don't see how, the Gospel is all about him..

As above, and read Deuteronomy 18:
15 “Adonai will raise up for you a prophet like me from among yourselves, from your own kinsmen. You are to pay attention to him, 16 just as when you were assembled at Horev and requested Adonai your God, ‘Don’t let me hear the voice of Adonai my God any more, or let me see this great fire ever again; if I do, I will die!’ 17 On that occasion Adonai said to me, ‘They are right in what they are saying. 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their kinsmen. I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I order him. 19 Whoever doesn’t listen to my words, which he will speak in my name, will have to account for himself to me.

So the question is, how could Jesus preach a different Torah, change, annul, amend things? What were the Pharisees trying to do the entire time?

Mark 12:13 [ Jesus Answers the Pharisees, Sadducees and Scribes ] Then they *sent some of the Pharisees and Herodians to Him in order to trap Him in a statement.

They were trying to trap him in anything against the Torah. He was speaking the truth of his Word, but with authority and insight. What is truth?

Psalm 25:10 All the paths of the Lord are lovingkindness and truth To those who keep His covenant and His testimonies.

Psalm 26:3 For Your lovingkindness is before my eyes, And I have walked in Your truth.

Psalm 40:11 You, O Lord, will not withhold Your compassion from me; Your lovingkindness and Your truth will continually preserve me.

Psalm 119:43 And do not take the word of truth utterly out of my mouth, For I wait for Your ordinances.

Psalm 119:142 Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, And Your law is truth.

Did truth change somehow?

3 John 1:4 I have no greater joy than this, to hear of my children walking in the truth.

1 John 5:6 This is the One who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood. It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.

1 John 4:6 We are from God; he who knows God listens to us; he who is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

The verses could continue, but you get my drift. How could follow in the truth be different before to after Jesus? Are there two truths?

Could he preach against or change his Word? Malachi 3:6. God would not break his promises nor does He ever change for He says I am that I am. But God can have a change of heart wherein He feels compassion rather than anger. Genesis 8:21. .

Nor could he preach or teach contrary to his Word. Many examples of great intercession to hold off judgement on people. Stand in the gap so to speak.

Could Jesus preach obedience to himself and ignore the instructions from the Torah? John 10:30 The way I see it,If God wanted to kill a man for who had done no wrong, He has every right to even if the Torah forbids it. As Job said, The Lord giveth, the Lord taketh away. Jesus has been given all authority, so yes he is not bound by the Torah. He will smash men like jars of clay..

The Bible disagrees. He can do no wrong and is the perfect judge. The Psalms speaks to the Torah's perfection.

Psalm 19:7 The law of the Lord is perfect, restoring the soul; The testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.

If it was not perfect, how could he ever operate outside of it?

Could Jesus contradict the Father? I don't think he can nor would, but I do think he is in a position to sway God as an intercessor for mankind.

The curtain is torn and is the mediator and advocate. But he couldn't advocate for a different set of instructions and laws, he is advocating on our behalf mercy and forgiveness for breaking his laws.


Sorry for being long winded, but Jesus used the Torah to rebuke Satan just to clarify this.

 

[Ryan]

By the way, the pharisees loved to been seen praying before others.

In a stunning twist of irony, I am petitioning my brothers and sisters to walk in the way Jesus walked, only to be labelled a Pharisee.

That's OK, Paul is a Pharisee so I'm in good company. :biglol

Acts 23:6. But perceiving that one group were Sadducees and the other Pharisees, Paul began crying out in the Council, “Brethren, I am a Pharisee, a son of Pharisees; I am on trial for the hope and resurrection of the dead!â€

Seriously mods...

 

[Sparkey]

By the way, the pharisees loved to been seen praying before others.

In a stunning twist of irony, I am petitioning my brothers and sisters to walk in the way Jesus walked, only to be labelled a Pharisee.

That's OK, Paul is a Pharisee so I'm in good company. :biglol

Acts 23:6. But perceiving that one group were Sadducees and the other Pharisees, Paul began crying out in the Council, “Brethren, I am a Pharisee, a son of Pharisees; I am on trial for the hope and resurrection of the dead!”

Seriously mods...

Moderator: Agreed. But there is also (as you know) a more formal process available to you in the tiny triangle icon that has the (!) within it. All members may use this to initiate a more formal response from the Members called Staff here. No more sticks and stones (even if you think they are pebbles) are to be cast between brothers or sisters at themselves or even at 'strangers' who enter here. Point blank: All are directed to keep comments directed "at the subject" and away from those types and styles that are designed to be inflammatory and/or may be seen as "to the man".

 

[Ryan]

And does the New Covenant annul previous covenants?

(Insert the necessary verse from Hebrews to say it has)

Hebrews 7.18-19

Hebrews 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

Some confuse this verse and mistakenly offer it as clear evidence that the law has been abolished, simply because Jesus Christ is now our High Priest. This confusion is hard to understand, because it specifically states that the law is changed, not abolished. In fact, the author uses the same Greek word, metatithemi, in chapter 11 verse 5:

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated (metatithemi) that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Here, the translators translate the same word as “translated.†Obviously Enoch was not abolished or deleted. He was simply transferred or translated into the Heavenly realms without seeing death.

Strong’s defines the word to literally mean to translate or carry over something. As one incorporates this into the overall teaching that the letter to the Hebrews is offering us, it is quickly apparent that all verse 12 is stating is that the priestly laws that were once laws for the Levitical (imperfect) priesthood, are now transferred in responsibility to our perfect High Priest Jesus Christ (Yeshua), thereby removed from the Levitical priesthood and established with Jesus Christ (Yeshua) as our new High Priest.

Which goes to the verses you cited Farouk

Hebrews 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

it states there is a disannulling of a commandment, not commandments. If it was the whole law of Moses being cancelled then we would be dealing with more than one commandment. The law is not weak and unprofitable, however; the author does not clarify yet at this point what is weak and unprofitable. Later we discover it is the sinful man administration of the priesthood that is causing the weakness, which is the root cause of the problem at hand.

In verse 12 when reading verse 18. We know the commandment was not erased, but transferred, or removed from the Levitical Priesthood to Yeshua (Jesus) in the order of Melchizedek.

The Greek word for disannulling (athetesis) explains what is happening. Athetesis means “to set aside something, to refuse to recognize its validity, or the complete removal of something“

To the Levitical Priesthood, the commandment that placed them in charge of the High Priesthood, it was “set asideâ€, and “removed,†and “they were longer recognized†as the administers of the Priesthood, but in fact, as verse 12 already clearly stated, the law was not thrown out the window, but handed off, or transferred, to the perfect administrator, Jesus He, unlike the Levites, was without sin.

Ezekiel 36:26 Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

The New Covenant is about changing the people, not changing its laws.

 

[Ryan]

By the way, the pharisees loved to been seen praying before others.

In a stunning twist of irony, I am petitioning my brothers and sisters to walk in the way Jesus walked, only to be labelled a Pharisee.

That's OK, Paul is a Pharisee so I'm in good company. :biglol

Acts 23:6. But perceiving that one group were Sadducees and the other Pharisees, Paul began crying out in the Council, “Brethren, I am a Pharisee, a son of Pharisees; I am on trial for the hope and resurrection of the dead!”

Seriously mods...

Moderator: Agreed. But there is also (as you know) a more formal process available to you in the tiny triangle icon that has the (!) within it. All members may use this to initiate a more formal response from the Members called Staff here. No more sticks and stones (even if you think they are pebbles) are to be cast. All are directed to keep comments directed "at the subject" and away from those that are designed to be inflammatory and/or may be seen as "to the man".

Sorry. Never knew what that triangle thing was before.

 

[Ryan]

Show me where one is not to have sex with animals in the New Covenant please.

Mind if I take a shot at that one? Please? My answer might not fully satisfy you, but it could prevent a tragedy (only joking... I know you wouldn't even think of such a thing... )

But here goes, my quick reply: Recall the part of the Old Covenant that says the New Covenant will be written in your heart? Viola! I've shown you. Look there.

In case you missed it.

"… for where no law is, there is no transgression" (Romans 4:15).

According to Paul, you cannot have sin without law. There are many passages showing that sin continues to exist today (Rom. 5:12; James 4:17; 1John 5:16-17), providing evidence that the obligation to observe the Law also continues to exist.

As well, if it was written on our hearts, what is the purpose of everything after the book of John then? Stupid question, I know. And not really serious. The complete ushering in yet of the New Covenant is still not in full effect. Read Hebrews 8 and Jeremiah 31 carefully.

 

[Ryan]

Show me where one is not to have sex with animals in the New Covenant please.

SEX WITH ANIMALS!! what kind of "christian" would even think of such an act?
If the Holy Spirit of God, The law written upon the heart! and the fact that Christ is always with a believer.

Will not keep you from having sex with animals? I doubt if one who has such an ungodly lust that the written code of the law will keep such a person from such evil acts.

"… for where no law is, there is no transgression" (Romans 4:15).

According to Paul, you cannot have sin without law. There are many passages showing that sin continues to exist today (Rom. 5:12; James 4:17; 1John 5:16-17), providing evidence that the obligation to observe the Law also continues to exist.

This same Paul teaches us that "because of Transgressions the Law was added"
19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. Galatians 3:19

So there was sin before the Law of Moses, for it is written -

sin entered the world through man... Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. Romans 5:20

JLB

I've read through yours and Sons of God exchange about this passage, and if I recall, I agree with his arguments and would use the same. Just not quite in depth though. So we'll just have to disagree on this.

 

[Sparkey]

In case you missed it.
...
The complete ushering in yet of the New Covenant is still not in full effect. Read Hebrews 8 and Jeremiah 31 carefully.

Although I do understand what you are intending to say, I also have read carefully. I will continue to trust that my observation is correct about the SPECIFIC section of the law regarding sexual immorality and it's subset 'bestiality' and that this is indeed written on your heart (at least as well as it is written on mine). Kindly consider taking a different tack in this discussion regarding the topic of sexual immorality which is covered well in all covenants, that of the Old, that of the Written New and that which has been written, is being written and will continue to be written, on your heart and hopefully mine as well. In other words, look there in the fleshly tablets of your heart. If you need further help from any startling evidence that you may find that contradicts my assumption (and the Law as explained by God in any method of your choosing) you may open another thread in the Christian Help and Advice forum, or in the Men's Locker Room or elsewhere as the Lord guides you.

 

[About the Son of God]

I hope everyone had a blessed Easter!
He has risen as he said! Hallel Jah! Halleluia alleluia, Amen.