When did the Law pass or has it passed away?

[francisdesales]

Deuteronomy 11:26-27 26 “See, I am setting before you today a blessing and a curse: 27 the blessing, if you listen to the commandments of the Lord your God, which I am commanding you today;

Deuteronomy 7:12 “Then it shall come about, because you listen to these judgments and keep and do them, that the Lord your God will keep with you His covenant and His lovingkindness which He swore to your forefathers.

Deuteronomy 12:28 “Be careful to listen to all these words which I command you, so that it may be well with you and your sons after you forever, for you will be doing what is good and right in the sight of the Lord your God.

Deuteronomy 30:11 “For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach.

How can anybody not see, read or comprehend these verses? Oh, but that is for Israel and the Jews. Please find and quote the New Covenant that is apart from Israel please? All the verses that one is arguing that the Torah is now on the bookshelves according to Jesus's teachings, the same bible says Jesus is to be considered a false prophet. Think about that and ponder about it for a bit. Please, this is really important stuff.

And I am awaiting a rebuke from Mitspa...

I find it quite amazing, as well. "no one can keep the Law"???

There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judæa, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless. Luke 1:5-6

The point about no one being able to keep the law is majoring in minors, anyway. That is not what Paul speaks about over and over in his letters. It is about the Jews boasting about their position with God through the Torah gave them priveleges with God.

'AH, we have the Torah. God really loves us. If you want a relationship with God, you must become Jewish, because we are the chosen people."

Paul lists Psalms that are embarassing to any proud Jew with that thought in Romans 3. Now, IF someone were to actually READ those Psalms he cites, they would find that Paul is NOT staing "no one can keep the Law', because the very PSALMS HE CITES MENTIONS PEOPLE KEEPING THE LAW!!! The POINT is to show that HAVING that "special privelege" means nothing if you don't keep it

(which ARE NOT TOO DIFFICULT TO KEEP!!! Unless, of course, someone thinks that either God is a liar or that the Bible is not God's inspired word)

The point, which begins in Romans 2, is that having the Law didn't mean people would keep the Law (those Jewish hypocrites who had the law and didn't keep it...) - and additionally, some kept the divine Law written in their hearts AS IF THEY HAD the stone tablets. Thus, the Jew cannot be proud - for is not God a God of the Gentiles, as well??? God will judge for eternal destiny based upon what we did. Not what we had.

The idea of focusing on "no one can keep the Law" misses Paul's point in Romans. The further nail to that coffins is using Abraham in Romans 4, which predates the Mosaic Law.

Regards

 

[JLB]

No DUH ... and you're the one trying to apophatically make it the topic of discussion. You're effectively Trolling. I'm not the one off topic.

The bringing up of "types" is underhanded subterfuge given the context of my statements. It doesn't matter (in the first place) whether the old sacrifices were types or NOT for the arguments I am presenting. Many WEREN'T.

The prophets speaking about the messiah suffering were not speaking about "types" and symbols -- they were talking about a real human suffering to come in the future; The prophets also spoke literally about what Jesus would suffer, "They have dug my hands and my feet".; "It is better for one man to die".

Typology was not yet necessary to our conversation -- Note: I spoke of Ezekiel's vision about the "resurrection", which isn't typology.

You are beyond a reasonable doubt demonstrating trolling, as it's obvious exactly how I'd react to having the exact same argument repeated again -- when I rejected it before; on the basis of "Until" not being a proof by itself.

As far as good translations -- here's another point: Tell me which of your preferred bibles has Hebrews 10:5 say the same things (exactly) as Psalm 40:6 ?
My Greek translation WILL agree to having "body" in both; but I know several of yours don't (and I know why, non Christians were involved.)

I have never had a problem with "until" denoting a change. I don't even have a problem with until being used when a reversal *DID* happen. BUT: I have a problem with you using a fallacious a sloganing; and beating it into peoples faces (especially mine) as if "Until" automatically proved everything necessary -- when it is a CLEARLY logically UNSTABLE word that is being used to bury the discussion of the truth.

I can repeat my clear objections for each scripture verse you use -- but there's no point in wasting everyone else's time on the forum. By mixing verses where until does mean a reversal, with ones where it clearly DOESN't ... you're just obfuscating the argument again....

I tell you now, my conscience is clear until today.
People take me quite seriously, and I them. And I don't like ad-hominems (ridicule) especially when they can be proven FALSE. Calculated statements like that, when done knowingly, are called "Calumny" (Against one of the 10 commandments.)

You are also avoiding answering questions -- or asking clarifying ones -- but simply expect me to believe you based on an out of context cut and paste -- which will never work. I can and do read the bible regularly -- and your added highlighting is definitely JUST YOU speaking.

The entire conversation merely puts me in the "pearls before swine" predicament; I show you something I think is good -- you resort to ad-hominem; I try to find common ground, you resort to ad-hominem.

Please, just leave me alone from now on. There are people far less abrasive that I can learn from and share with; and I don't want to be tempted to loose my temper.

Please, just leave me alone from now on. There are people far less abrasive that I can learn from and share with; and I don't want to be tempted to loose my temper.

Now that's a smart move. Knowing you have been shadow boxing with the like of Paul and Jesus, I can see why you are frustrated and want to give up by resorting to insults.

The Law of God and His commandments are Eternal.

The Law of Moses with all of it's regulations and requirements as well as the Levitical Priesthood has been removed.

...having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

JLB

 

[Mitspa]

Romans 11:25~~For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery-- so that you will not be wise in your own estimation-- that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;

Eph 3:9~~and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things;

Eph 1:9~~He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him

Col 4:3~~praying at the same time for us as well, that God will open up to us a door for the word, so that we may speak forth the mystery of Christ, for which I have also been imprisoned;

Eph 5:32~~This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Col 1:27~~to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

What is the mystery of Christ Jesus? This is the important Question and what needs to be pondered. Because it leads to the answers to your questions. Because it is an all encompassing Grace that motivates believers to obedience to His will.

Any motivation outside of thankfulness for His Grace and walking in the Spirit, is an act of futility on our part to follow the verses you quote.

We must be on the same Holy Spirit wave length today?
For I have thought on the subject of the mystery of Godliness today at work. When Paul describes the "mystery" what does he descibe? God was manifest in the flesh etc...
He descibes Christ. Who is the Word of God and the very Image of God. Anyone who comes to the word and doctrine and does not see that Christ Jesus is the law and the prophets, that only He fulfilled that which was written. Has not seen the mystery.
For 2 Cor 3 makes this very point that their minds and hearts are blinded even now at the reading of the Old Testament and the law of Moses. For they cannot see that the law has passed away. For they cannot see that is was all about Jesus. The word made flesh, the Living Word of God. The Image of God.

So if at the end of ones doctrine, they uphold the legalist and the those like the pharisee who judged others by a standard they did not keep? If they reject that Christ did not come to condemn, but to save? There doctrines are wrong.
At the end of all true doctrine is the Person of the Lord Jesus.
All godliness is that we behold Him in His glory.
This why it is written that the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith. For it is by faith and the spirit of grace that one is changed from glory to glory as one beholds Him in faith.
I cannot die to the law for anyone. I cannot make one be honest enough to admit they can never keep the standard of the law. Many will spend their whole christain walk in Rom 7.
They will not move on to Romans 8. "for the law of the spirit of life in Christ has set me free from the law of sin and death"

Like Israel that had to go around the same mountain all those years, many will never enter into Gods rest. For we must first cease from our own works to enter into Gods rest.

 

[JLB]

Deuteronomy 11:26-27 26 “See, I am setting before you today a blessing and a curse: 27 the blessing, if you listen to the commandments of the Lord your God, which I am commanding you today;

Deuteronomy 7:12 “Then it shall come about, because you listen to these judgments and keep and do them, that the Lord your God will keep with you His covenant and His lovingkindness which He swore to your forefathers.

Deuteronomy 12:28 “Be careful to listen to all these words which I command you, so that it may be well with you and your sons after you forever, for you will be doing what is good and right in the sight of the Lord your God.

Deuteronomy 30:11 “For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach.

How can anybody not see, read or comprehend these verses? Oh, but that is for Israel and the Jews. Please find and quote the New Covenant that is apart from Israel please? All the verses that one is arguing that the Torah is now on the bookshelves according to Jesus's teachings, the same bible says Jesus is to be considered a false prophet. Think about that and ponder about it for a bit. Please, this is really important stuff.

And I am awaiting a rebuke from Mitspa...

And the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live. 7 Also the Lord your God will put all these curses on your enemies and on those who hate you, who persecuted you. 8 And you will again obey the voice of the Lord and do all His commandments which I command you today. 9 The Lord your God will make you abound in all the work of your hand, in the fruit of your body, in the increase of your livestock, and in the produce of your land for good. For the Lord will again rejoice over you for good as He rejoiced over your fathers, 10 if you obey the voice of the Lord your God, to keep His commandments and His statutes which are written in this Book of the Law, and if you turn to the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 11 "For this commandment which I command you today is not too mysterious for you, nor is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will ascend into heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?' Deuteronomy 30:6-12

Very similar to Genesis 26:5, which was 430 years before the Law of Moses.

because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws."

Thank God, through the price Jesus paid for us, to have a new nature that desires to please God and is opposed to the sin that still works in us.

for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves.

and again -

28 Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

We are held to a higher standard.

To whom much is given, much is expected.


JLB

 

[Mitspa]

And the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live. 7 Also the Lord your God will put all these curses on your enemies and on those who hate you, who persecuted you. 8 And you will again obey the voice of the Lord and do all His commandments which I command you today. 9 The Lord your God will make you abound in all the work of your hand, in the fruit of your body, in the increase of your livestock, and in the produce of your land for good. For the Lord will again rejoice over you for good as He rejoiced over your fathers, 10 if you obey the voice of the Lord your God, to keep His commandments and His statutes which are written in this Book of the Law, and if you turn to the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 11 "For this commandment which I command you today is not too mysterious for you, nor is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will ascend into heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?' Deuteronomy 30:6-12

Very similar to Genesis 26:5, which was 430 years before the Law of Moses.

because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws."

Thank God, through the price Jesus paid for us, to have a new nature that desires to please God and is opposed to the sin that still works in us.

for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves.

and again -

28 Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

We are held to a higher standard.

To whom much is given, much is expected.


JLB

Wow I thought I was all alone on Rom 2:14-15 ? Good to see that this scriptures is made clear to you JLB
for the great promise of the Old Testament was that the "law would be written upon the heart" of we know this is the Spirit and Gods love shed abroad in our hearts.

Paul further backs up this point in verses 27-29

Rom 2:27-29
For he is a jew "praise" who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart in spirit not in letter.

This desire to praise that we have in our hearts? This is that which the letter was only a shadow of.

We see here that the righteous requirment of the law, was of no work of mans efforts or by the letter. It was fulfilled in faith.
No need to look to the letter! but to Christ and the Spirit works in us to will and act according to Gods purpose.

 

[About the Son of God]

Now that's a smart move. Knowing you have been shadow boxing with the like of Paul and Jesus, I can see why you are frustrated and want to give up by resorting to insults.

Your name is neither Jesus, nor Paul.
And your post is out of date, responding to a database archive of the message which was long ago replaced.
I never give up on doing right; but I do want to be left alone by you at this point.

 

[Sparkey]

I never give up on doing right; but I do want to be left alone by you at this point.

Which to me, is a reasonable request. As is this bolded for emphasis request:

Please, just leave me alone from now on.

And this prior request:

Please, just leave me alone from now on.

That doesn't mean it's time to celebrate with any victory dance, but it does signal an opportunity to give another Member the respect that we've all agreed to. Within the Terms that each Member has agreed to in exchange for the Service rendered here we find Section 2.5 describing behavior expectations for each of us.

NOTE: From your top blue menu bar, click [Quick Links] for the Drop Down Menu and then choose "Terms of Service" to view.

Here it is, in part, for your reference:

Terms of Service (ToS)​

Section 2: Specific Rules, Guidelines and Processes (the “meat” of the ToS)

2.5: Respect each others' opinions. Address issues, not persons or personalities. Give other members the respect you would want them to give yourself.

• It is a violation to misquote or misrepresent another member.
• Any personal problems with another member, then deal with it through private messages.
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• Respect where others are in their spiritual walk, do not disrupt the flow of discussion or act in a way that affects others negatively including when debating doctrinal issues, in the defense of the Christian faith, and in offering unwelcome spiritual advice.

Section 2.15: Please do not use the message board to air your grievances against other fellow members.

• If you have observed a violation of the Terms of Service please let a Moderator or Administrator know. (This includes violations or allegations of inappropriate actions by the moderators and administration.)
• If the grievance is with a staff member please contact them privately. If you deem it necessary to go beyond that then take it to the next level of Leadership authority.

Notice how this conforms with the Mission Statement here at ChristianForums.net

ChristianForums.net Mission Statement:​

ChristianForums.net aspires to provide a place where Christians can come together in fellowship for encouragement, inspiration, and strength to help build each other up and grow in our walk of faith through honest and open discussion, study, reflection, and prayer.

ChristianForums.net desires to serve non-Christians, seeking answers to questions about Christianity, by sharing the gospel of Jesus Christ so they too may acquire the hope, joy, and peace that come from fellowship with the saving grace of our Lord, Jesus Christ.

 

[JLB]

Your name is neither Jesus, nor Paul.
And your post is out of date, responding to a database archive of the message which was long ago replaced.
I never give up on doing right; but I do want to be left alone by you at this point.

I have only been giving you scriptures from Jesus and Paul.

Scriptures that you explain away.


JLB

 

[Sparkey]

I was just looking as something that came to me many years ago. It wasn't given about this particular subject but instead as an example of Love. Within the little book there is a 'treatise' or poem about the Law: It my hope here that this will be accepted as a respite and rest given to an almost overworked thread:

On Laws
by Kahlil Gibran

You delight in laying down laws,

Yet you delight more in breaking them.
Like children playing by the ocean who build sand-towers with constancy and then destroy them with laughter.
But while you build your sand-towers the ocean brings more sand to the shore,
And when you destroy them the ocean laughs with you.
Verily the ocean laughs always with the innocent.
​

But what of those to whom life is not an ocean, and man-made laws are not sandtowers,

But to whom life is a rock, and the law a chisel with which they would carve it in their own likeness?
What of the cripple who hates dancers?
What of the ox who loves his yoke and deems the elk and deer of the forest stray and vagrant things?
What of the old serpent who cannot shed his skin, and calls all others naked and shameless?
And of him who comes early to the wedding-feast, and when over-fed and tired goes his way saying that all feasts are violation and all feasters lawbreakers?
​

What shall I say of these save that they too stand in the sunlight, but with their backs to the sun?

They see only their shadows, and their shadows are their laws.
And what is the sun to them but a caster of shadows?
And what is it to acknowledge the laws but to stoop down and trace their shadows upon the earth?​

But you who walk facing the sun, what images drawn on the earth can hold you?

You who travel with the wind, what weather-vane shall direct your course?
What man's law shall bind you if you break your yoke but upon no man's prison door?​

What laws shall you fear if you dance but stumble against no man's iron chains?
And who is he that shall bring you to judgment if you tear off your garment yet leave it in no man's path?


People of Orphalese, you can muffle the drum, and you can loosen the strings of the lyre, but who shall command the skylark not to sing?

 

[JLB]

Which to me, is a reasonable request. As is this bolded for emphasis request:

And this prior request:

That doesn't mean it's time to celebrate with any victory dance, but it does signal an opportunity to give another Member the respect that we've all agreed to. Within the Terms that each Member has agreed to in exchange for the Service rendered here we find Section 2.5 describing behavior expectations for each of us.

NOTE: From your top blue menu bar, click [Quick Links] for the Drop Down Menu and then choose "Terms of Service" to view.

Here it is, in part, for your reference:




Notice how this conforms with the Mission Statement here at ChristianForums.net

When a person keeps responding to my posts then it is clear they want to keep the dialog going.

The best way to be "left alone" is to simply stop responding and go on your way.

If you will go back through a read the threads you will see he just starts with his opinion to dismiss the scriptures I quoted then starts in with the insults.

I am sorry we disagree. Hopefully he will not respond to any more of my posts, if doesn't want to discuss the topic with me.


Thanks JLB

 

[Sparkey]

Have you ever been hit in the head by a hornet? I have. I had been camping with my family one fine summer's day. While exploring and tromping about in the woods I was smacked right in the middle of my forehead, just above the bridge of the nose and right between the eyes by what turned out to be one very determined hornet.

Being young and dumb, I had not experienced this particular warning before. It was definitely a "smack" though and I looked around to find the cause. About a dozen feet away was something that I had never seen before. It looked like a nest of flies. Like flies had taken to building nests. I hadn't been stung and they looked different from the honey bees that I had experience with. They were not wasps or yellow-jackets but their nest did look paper-ish. It was about that time that I thought it would be smart for me to begin my hasty retreat.


Did I say that I was young and dumb? So, on my way back to the campground I started thinking. Yeah, I know. Big mistake, right? I stopped and picked up some rocks as I considered the warning that had been given. Did I stop to wonder if there had been mercy included in the message? Did I wonder at the hornet that chose my forehead instead of one of my eyes as the target of such hostility? Or did I wonder at the buzz of his friends? No. I thought about the challenge laid down. It was man vs. beast. Never-mind that fact that I was nowhere close to manhood at the time. This was war!


The inevitable didn't happen. I was not stung once. The little nest of flies was destroyed by my arsenal of rocks and I did not try to conceal my strut as I found my way back to the tent-site, victorious but silent, as I knew I would get in trouble if the story got out. The silence continued until the evening meal was being prepared. It was then that I heard the clamor in the campground. An ambulance had been called. Turns out, some poor woman had been gathering tiny treasures while walking in the surrounding woods. She was being rushed to the hospital for treatment because she had stumbled into an angry hornet's nest. The silence continued in me until this day, almost 50 years later. The law of the hornet was placed into me then. I remember. I do.

 

[jasoncran]

Joe, I thought and still do that the circumcision and also the shabat is part of the law. the rcc does neither.

 

[Sparkey]

Hopefully he will not respond to any more of my posts, if doesn't want to discuss the topic with me.

You are not understanding me here, JLB. I am telling both of you to halt an activity (cease) and not to take it up again later (desist) else face what happens when any Member refuses to follow Moderator warning. This is no longer a matter of "she hit me first". Do not take my polite tone (or rambling ways) as an indication of any lack of resolve here. No Member is banned from this thread. You are both expected equally to pause, consider, turn and then to give the respect that is due to the other without any further interference from me.

 

[gr8grace]

Have you ever been hit in the head by a hornet? I have. I had been camping with my family one fine summer's day. While exploring and tromping about in the woods I was smacked right in the middle of my forehead, just above the bridge of the nose and right between the eyes by what turned out to be one very determined hornet.

Being young and dumb, I had not experienced this particular warning before. It was definitely a "smack" though and I looked around to find the cause. About a dozen feet away was something that I had never seen before. It looked like a nest of flies. Like flies had taken to building nests. I hadn't been stung and they looked different from the honey bees that I had experience with. They were not wasps or yellow-jackets but their nest did look paper-ish. It was about that time that I thought it would be smart for me to begin my hasty retreat.


Did I say that I was young and dumb? So, on my way back to the campground I started thinking. Yeah, I know. Big mistake, right? I stopped and picked up some rocks as I considered the warning that had been given. Did I stop to wonder if there had been mercy included in the message? Did I wonder at the hornet that chose my forehead instead of one of my eyes as the target of such hostility? Or did I wonder at the buzz of his friends? No. I thought about the challenge laid down. It was man vs. beast. Never-mind that fact that I was nowhere close to manhood at the time. This was war!


The inevitable didn't happen. I was not stung once. The little nest of flies was destroyed by my arsenal of rocks and I did not try to conceal my strut as I found my way back to the tent-site, victorious but silent, as I knew I would get in trouble if the story got out. The silence continued until the evening meal was being prepared. It was then that I heard the clamor in the campground. An ambulance had been called. Turns out, some poor woman had been gathering tiny treasures while walking in the surrounding woods. She was being rushed to the hospital for treatment because she had stumbled into an angry hornet's nest. The silence continued in me until this day, almost 50 years later. The law of the hornet was placed into me then. I remember. I do.

Have you ever thought that the hornet taught you a lesson and God used you to reach a little old lady with a nasty hornet, To bring Her to a place that He could reach Her? And your act actually brought Her to the Lord. Maybe She needed a hornet to get her to the place that God could speak to her?

 

[Sparkey]

Have you ever thought that the hornet taught you a lesson and God used you to reach a little old lady with a nasty hornet, To bring Her to a place that He could reach Her? And your act actually brought Her to the Lord. Maybe She needed a hornet to get her to the place that God could speak to her?

No, my only thought throughout the years was one of regret for my foolish act. She was stung multiple times. I'm glad that I did not see her swollen face, or her puffy eyes, glad that she was not allergic to bee-stings. I did not stop to consider possible consequence. It reminds me today of the "weaker brother" that Paul speaks about and how we all need to step with care.

I do think about the fact that the iron of brothers may be used to sharpen. I also think about the Lord and what lessons may be learned. My mind goes to Judges 3:2 NIV, for some of these things discussed in thread. Yet we are not to take up stones, not to destroy nests of flies here. Our weapons are mighty unto pulling down of strongholds, but it is not flesh and blood that we fight against.

 

[gr8grace]

No, my only thought throughout the years was one of regret for my foolish act. She was stung multiple times. I'm glad that I did not see her swollen face, or her puffy eyes, glad that she was not allergic to bee-stings. I did not stop to consider possible consequence. It reminds me today of the "weaker brother" that Paul speaks about and how we all need to step with care.

I believe Sparrow, that you do not need and should have not lived in regret. Gods Heart is not for us to live in regret. Gods Grace shielded you from "seeing" it(her pain) and Granted you grace for letting you know that she was not allergic. And I believe Gods Grace had you in that circumstance to further His Plan.

And I believe the lesson you learned is exactly what you state "weaker brother" we are more aware of what we should or should not be doing in our walk with Him.

 

[Sparkey]

I believe Sparrow, that you do not need and should have not lived in regret. Gods Heart is not for us to live in regret. Gods Grace shielded you from "seeing" it(her pain) and Granted you grace for letting you know that she was not allergic. And I believe Gods Grace had you in that circumstance to further His Plan.

And I believe the lesson you learned is exactly what you state "weaker brother" we are more aware of what we should or should not be doing in our walk with Him.

Well, thank you. Of course, the more troubling thing would be those acts that I have witnessed my hands doing after that time, yet I do understand your word to me today, that I am not to hold a grudge against myself after my full price has been paid and I have been ransomed and restored into the Kingdom according to the riches of mercy that is Held forever for me (and for you, just by the way). It is a good word of encouragement that you speak into my heart and one not often heard these days. Did I tell you that I had a phone call from an angel today? Well, it might not have been an angel, but it was a stranger who said, "I love you." and "Jesus loves you," right into my ear. It wasn't random either. That call was made to me. Shhhhh.... it's a secret treasure.

 

[Ryan]

[/COLOR][/COLOR]
28 Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

We are held to a higher standard.

To whom much is given, much is expected.


JLB

Hmmm, no I don't take for granted God's mercy and grace he extended to me when I became a believer. Consider Paul and how he behaved that nobody wants to, or likes to acknowledge.

However, I admit that I worship the God of our fathers as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that agrees with the Law and that is written in the Prophets, (Acts 24:14)

When Paul appeared, the Jews who had come down from Jerusalem stood around him, bringing many serious charges against him, which they could not prove. Then Paul made his defense: "I have done nothing wrong against the law of the Jews or against the temple or against Caesar." (Acts 25:7-8)

I thank God, whom I serve, as my forefathers did, with a clear conscience, as night and day I constantly remember you in my prayers.
(2 Timothy 1:3)

"The Jews all know the way I have lived ever since I was a child, from the beginning of my life in my own country, and also in Jerusalem. They have known me for a long time and can testify, if they are willing, that according to the strictest sect of our religion, I lived as a Pharisee. (Acts 26:4-5)

Notice that Paul says, "our religion" instead of "their religion". Paul still thought of himself as a part of the Jewish religion. Apparently Paul's behavior had been fairly consistent ever since he was a child. It's not likely that Paul would have invited the Jews to testify that he lived as a Pharisee unless he was still living essentially as a Pharisee because the Jews would have been eager to challenge, rather than verify, Paul's testimony.

Three days later he called together the leaders of the Jews. When they had assembled, Paul said to them: "My brothers, although I have done nothing against our people or against the customs of our ancestors, I was arrested in Jerusalem and handed over to the Romans. (Acts 28:17)

In the New Testament, it was the enemies of the Christians who falsely accused the believers of breaking the Law of Moses and teaching others to disregard it too. (Acts 6:11-14; Acts 18:13; Acts 21:21-24; Acts 21:28-29) Today, it is Christians themselves who sometimes repeat those same assertions about Paul.

If Paul were in the habit of disregarding the Torah instructions, then we would expect to find recorded in the New Testament at least one instance where Paul disobeyed the Torah. However, no such record exists. Should we assume that Paul is guilty of law breaking until someone proves him innocent? Not according to Scripture. Two or three truthful witnesses are required before we can find a person guilty of transgressing the law. (Deut. 19:15, 1Tim. 5:19) Through his words and actions Paul repeatedly led people to believe that he was living according to the Law of Moses (see above). It should be safe to assume that Paul's testimony about his own lifestyle is true. Or will we choose to affirm instead the same assertions that Paul's enemies directed against him?

 

[Ryan]

Speaking of witnesses, it is God's very own Torah that will bring about judgement and his wrath upon the earth.

look at the specific role the Two Witnesses fulfill as witnesses. A witness is a person who has seen or knows something, and is therefore capable of giving evidence about it. There are several scriptural passages that explain the role and function which witnesses fulfill:

DEUTERONOMY 17:6 "Whoever is deserving of death shall be put to death on the testimony of two or three witnesses; he shall not be put to death on the testimony of one witness. 7 The hands of the witnesses shall be the first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hands of all the people. So you shall put away the evil from among you." (NKJV)

DEUTERONOMY 19:15 "One witness shall not rise against a man concerning any iniquity or any sin that he commits; by the mouth of two or three witnesses the matter shall be established." (NKJV)

It is a clear principle in the Torah that the testimony of only one witness is not enough to convict a person of a capital crime. It takes a minimum of TWO witnesses to convict someone for the death penalty (or any other sin, for that matter). This same principle is repeated by both Yeshua and Paul in the New Testament:

MATTHEW 18:16 "But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that 'by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.' " (NKJV)

II CORINTHIANS 13:1 This will be the third time I am coming to you. "By the mouth of two or three witnesses every word shall be established." (NKJV)

According to the Scriptures, there must be two witnesses to an act in order for the sentence of the Law to be carried out. Since those who accept the mark of the beast and worship him will "drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation" (Rev. 14:10), at least two witnesses to their sins will be necessary to convict and punish them. And how will they be punished?

Ezekiel 38:22 With pestilence and with blood I will enter into judgment with him; and I will rain on him and on his troops, and on the many peoples who are with him, a torrential rain, with hailstones, fire and brimstone.

Revelation 16:21 And huge hailstones, about one hundred pounds each, *came down from heaven upon men; and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, because its plague *was extremely severe.

People are going to get stoned, and not in a psychedelic kinda way. Literally. God will do this according to his very own commandments for disobedience and rebellion. So no, the Law is not done with because that is how he is going to impart judgement on the world.

 

[JLB]

Hmmm, no I don't take for granted God's mercy and grace he extended to me when I became a believer. Consider Paul and how he behaved that nobody wants to, or likes to acknowledge.

However, I admit that I worship the God of our fathers as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that agrees with the Law and that is written in the Prophets, (Acts 24:14)

When Paul appeared, the Jews who had come down from Jerusalem stood around him, bringing many serious charges against him, which they could not prove. Then Paul made his defense: "I have done nothing wrong against the law of the Jews or against the temple or against Caesar." (Acts 25:7-8)

I thank God, whom I serve, as my forefathers did, with a clear conscience, as night and day I constantly remember you in my prayers.
(2 Timothy 1:3)

"The Jews all know the way I have lived ever since I was a child, from the beginning of my life in my own country, and also in Jerusalem. They have known me for a long time and can testify, if they are willing, that according to the strictest sect of our religion, I lived as a Pharisee. (Acts 26:4-5)

Notice that Paul says, "our religion" instead of "their religion". Paul still thought of himself as a part of the Jewish religion. Apparently Paul's behavior had been fairly consistent ever since he was a child. It's not likely that Paul would have invited the Jews to testify that he lived as a Pharisee unless he was still living essentially as a Pharisee because the Jews would have been eager to challenge, rather than verify, Paul's testimony.

Three days later he called together the leaders of the Jews. When they had assembled, Paul said to them: "My brothers, although I have done nothing against our people or against the customs of our ancestors, I was arrested in Jerusalem and handed over to the Romans. (Acts 28:17)

In the New Testament, it was the enemies of the Christians who falsely accused the believers of breaking the Law of Moses and teaching others to disregard it too. (Acts 6:11-14; Acts 18:13; Acts 21:21-24; Acts 21:28-29) Today, it is Christians themselves who sometimes repeat those same assertions about Paul.

If Paul were in the habit of disregarding the Torah instructions, then we would expect to find recorded in the New Testament at least one instance where Paul disobeyed the Torah. However, no such record exists. Should we assume that Paul is guilty of law breaking until someone proves him innocent? Not according to Scripture. Two or three truthful witnesses are required before we can find a person guilty of transgressing the law. (Deut. 19:15, 1Tim. 5:19) Through his words and actions Paul repeatedly led people to believe that he was living according to the Law of Moses (see above). It should be safe to assume that Paul's testimony about his own lifestyle is true. Or will we choose to affirm instead the same assertions that Paul's enemies directed against him?

Paul conducted himself in such a way as to win as many to Christ as he could.

As he said -

19 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win the more; 20 and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law; 21 to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ), that I might win those who are without law; 22 to the weak I became as weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. 1 Corinthians 1:19-22

This is the reason he took Timothy and circumcised him, because Timothy was to be his disciple and travel with him and learn from him.

It would have been a hindrance to Paul reaching the Jews in that region and elsewhere.Not because he needed to keep the Law of Moses.

Paul's heart was to reach his countrymen, it was his passion.

Some of Paul's greatest struggles came from this great burden to reach his own people, as we can see from some of his statements like -


I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; 5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen. Romans 9:1-5

Paul considered himself best suited to reach his own countrymen, Being a Pharisee of Pharisee's he knew how they thought and could reach them better than Peter and the others who were less educated in the Law.

Therein lies the wisdom of God.

God did not need Paul to rely on his own strength and wisdom to reach his people. Paul would learn this valuable lesson as we see in his words -

And I, brethren, when I came to you, did not come with excellence of speech or of wisdom declaring to you the testimony of God. 2 For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified. 3 I was with you in weakness, in fear, and in much trembling. 4 And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 1 Corinthians 2:4

JLB