When did the Law pass or has it passed away?

[About the Son of God]

Yes, from Numbers 31:

This is how the spoils of war are to be cleansed. Applying this to the battle we wage as warriors of Christ for the souls of men, the spirit of a man snatched from enemy territory is subjected to the fire of the Holy Spirit, while his body is washed in the waters of baptism.

Hmmm....
That ties into the section of the Holocaust being described in Hebrews, ( that I was starting to consider ). Unfotunately, Paul ran out of parchment/vellum and had to decide what not to write -- and all we get is a vague reference, and then he apologizes at the end of Hebrews. I guess when it came to five final lines of theology, vs. five lines of mandatory church business... it wouldn't have made much difference.


From what I can see, when spoils were captured from an enemy that were worthy of being trophies -- they were hung on the outside of the temple and called ana (another/again) Thema (theme) -- anathema. (αναθημασιν)

Luke 21:
http://www.biblos.com/luke/21-5.htm5

Here its' translated "precious gifts" -- but in other places it's translated "cursed" -- which I find a bit odd.

It's actual meaning is simply that which doesn't belong to the theme of Israel's inner temple. ( Not Israel's religion -- but beautiful none the less).

When I see it in other places, I can imagine that they're saying something like: "Let us be treated as pagans if we don't do such and such before sundown...."

Back to the spoils of war, though:
You were talking about fire purification...
Upon being run through fire, the special trophies would be clean -- and therefore could be hung on the outside of the temple as decoration. I think gold shields from conquered nations might have been one of these decorations in the O.T. -- but memory might be tricking me.

By analogy, then:
Paul, would be one of the best examples of anathema, (war spoils) for he was quite literally a murderer of Christians at first on account of his zeal for his own family.

Matth 10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
Matth 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
etc. (Ironic, Paul's a lawyer -- and is it letter of the law vs. meaning....)

I like your explanation ... it does seem to pick up the elements of the argument Paul was making in Hebrews; although, there is something off that I will need to explore in detail (Berean philosophy)...

War spoils aren't the same as natives.

Paul was essentially taken against his will at the time (he was conquered in a skirmish), and being a 13th (quasi/pseudo) one of the twelve ... his position was symbolically in the place an anathema would be (part of the temple, but not of the 12 gates.) There is a psalm prophecying as much --- "The Lord to captives on high".

So, I would hypothesize Paul was positively predestined (against his natural will) to be part of the heavenly kingdom.

But some kind of distinction is clearly made regarding children, who would be natives:
1Corinthians 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy. ( τα τεκνα )

I see that there are two distinct cleansings applied to different vessels, water, fire -- and some vessels were not to be cleaned, but just broken; So you're saying the body could not withstand the Holy Spirit ?

The rest of what you said is excellent as well; but it's more than I can study tonight.


God bless you, and I look forward to understanding more of your view.
(Perhaps a little bit at a time....)

 

[Mitspa]

I was just looking as something that came to me many years ago. It wasn't given about this particular subject but instead as an example of Love. Within the little book there is a 'treatise' or poem about the Law: It my hope here that this will be accepted as a respite and rest given to an almost overworked thread:

Hawk I read your poem and enjoyed it. It sounds to me as if the writter of this poem was seeing the truth of man, and the relationship with the written code. I dare to guess this person had to write in a poem the truth of the gospel? For if they came out in a straitforward way to say these things, it might have caused them harm?
How the gospel turns the world upside-down? It takes no faith to believe in the law of sin and death. But to receive Gods goodness, based upon His own goodness. takes a "fool" and a "child" to believe!
Paul spends so much time telling us that our natural mind cannot understand the gospel? The gospel will never make sense to those who do not understand Gods great love for man.
I received God Love by pouring forth of His love in my heart by the Holy Spirit. I did nothing but believe. For years I struggled to find the reason he loved me so? The more I looked the less reasons I found for His Love. I finally understood that I am nothing of myself, but yet the Lord of Heaven and earth loved me? Now I see that becasue He loves me I am something and have great value.
God is love, those who know love, know very well that love fulfills all the laws of God. Because in love we are made in His Image. The written code is a wall that stands between a believer and the love of God. For if one attempts to serve God by the letter, their own flesh will witness against them. Any seperation from Gods love is a seperation from our ability to love others. For love others based upon the confidence we have in His love for us. Legalism destroys this confidence and seperates us from the very source of our obedience.
I will never love others but by receiving Gods love for me.
It is not me that loves, but God loves through me. If through legalism I am seperated from God? I am cutoff from the source of my obedience.

 

[Ryan]

Paul conducted himself in such a way as to win as many to Christ as he could.

As he said -

19 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win the more; 20 and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law; 21 to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ), that I might win those who are without law; 22 to the weak I became as weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. 1 Corinthians 1:19-22

This is the reason he took Timothy and circumcised him, because Timothy was to be his disciple and travel with him and learn from him.

It would have been a hindrance to Paul reaching the Jews in that region and elsewhere.Not because he needed to keep the Law of Moses.

Paul's heart was to reach his countrymen, it was his passion.

Some of Paul's greatest struggles came from this great burden to reach his own people, as we can see from some of his statements like -


I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; 5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen. Romans 9:1-5

Paul considered himself best suited to reach his own countrymen, Being a Pharisee of Pharisee's he knew how they thought and could reach them better than Peter and the others who were less educated in the Law.

Therein lies the wisdom of God.

God did not need Paul to rely on his own strength and wisdom to reach his people. Paul would learn this valuable lesson as we see in his words -

And I, brethren, when I came to you, did not come with excellence of speech or of wisdom declaring to you the testimony of God. 2 For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified. 3 I was with you in weakness, in fear, and in much trembling. 4 And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 1 Corinthians 2:4

JLB

And here lies the problem. Paul never, ever once told in his letters to not follow the Law of Moses. To do so, would have rocked the Jewish world and he surely would have been killed earlier, as he oversaw the death of many believers before his conversion. Teaching that the Torah passed away, was an automatic death sentence. All the verses you quoted, with the assertion you present, when matched with the verses I provided, would have made Paul the biggest hypocrite in the bible. A fake, fraudster.

Paul taught the Gentiles to follow his own lifestyle and example.
Join with others in following my example, brothers, and take note of those who live according to the pattern we gave you. (Philippians 3:17)

Whatever you have learned or received or heard from me, or seen in me--put it into practice. And the God of peace will be with you. (Philippians 4:9)

Therefore I urge you to imitate me. For this reason I am sending to you Timothy, my son whom I love, who is faithful in the Lord. He will remind you of my way of life in Christ Jesus, which agrees with what I teach everywhere in every church. (1 Corinthians 4: 16, 17)

because our gospel came to you not simply with words, but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and with deep conviction. You know how we lived among you for your sake. You became imitators of us and of the Lord; in spite of severe suffering, you welcomed the message with the joy given by the Holy Spirit. And so you became a model to all the believers in Macedonia and Achaia. (1 Thessalonians 1: 5-7)

Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ. I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the teachings, just as I passed them on to you. (1 Corinthians 11:1-2)

In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers, to keep away from every brother who is idle and does not live according to the teaching you received from us. For you yourselves know how you ought to follow our example. We were not idle when we were with you, nor did we eat anyone's food without paying for it. On the contrary, we worked night and day, laboring and toiling so that we would not be a burden to any of you. We did this, not because we do not have the right to such help, but in order to make ourselves a model for you to follow. (2 Thessalonians 3:6-9)

Paul set himself up as a model for Gentile believers to follow. So when Paul rested on Sabbaths and during the annual Sabbaths of the Biblical feasts, resting on those days would have become part of the work ethic that the Gentiles were supposed to follow.

Then Agrippa said to Paul, "Do you think that in such a short time you can persuade me to be a Christian?" Paul replied, "Short time or long--I pray God that not only you but all who are listening to me today may become what I am, except for these chains." (Acts 26:28)

Notice that Paul's prayer was for everyone listening to become, not only a Christian as Agrippa suggested, but a Christian specifically like Paul himself. Paul believed that he was an appropriate role model for all Christians, whether they were Gentiles or not. We are called to be imitators of Paul as he was imitating Christ. Now how did Christ walk and live?

 

[Mitspa]

Of course Paul did not teach the law, he is the one who wrote that no man can be justified by the law. That Christ is the end of the law for righteousness.
That the law has been annulled because of its weakness and unprofitableness. For the law made nothing perfect. Heb 7:18-19
He wrote the law is not of faith, that the strength of sin is the law. He wrote that the law of the spirit of life in Christ has set us free from the law of sin and death.

He wrote that the ministry of death and condemnation, written in stones, has passed away for those who are in Christ. He was hated by the jews for this very reason!

Not to even mention, that the chruch did not meet on the sabbath, but on the first day of the week.

 

[Ryan]

The Law is completely based on love for God and one another. It is a blessing to learn and to follow out its ways. It's funny that most Spirit filled Christians, even if they profess to not be "under the law" are already following many of the tenets and principles of the Law. Kindness, mercy, compassion, justice, charity are the weightier matters of the law. I'm just here to tell you there is blessings in following the Sabbath as God instructed, the annual appointments being the feast days and other instructions that are discarded as being Jewish.

Passover is coming up and many non-believers became saved as a result. Other messianic congregations report miracles are occurring during the feast days, and the Shekinah glory of The Lord making its presence known. Passover is coming up, try and find a Seder to attend at a Messianic congregation. The Torah, and Torah observance is making a revival. This is why more and more believers are questioning this long held doctrine. Speaking of the last days, please pay attention to these verses as well.

Isaiah 2:2-3 Now it will come about that
In the last days
The mountain of the house of the Lord
Will be established as the chief of the mountains,
And will be raised above the hills;
And all the nations will stream to it.
3 And many peoples will come and say,
“Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
To the house of the God of Jacob;
That He may teach us concerning His ways
And that we may walk in His paths.”
For the law will go forth from Zion
And the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

Micah 4:1-2 4 And it will come about in the last days
That the mountain of the house of the Lord
Will be established [a]as the chief of the mountains.
It will be raised above the hills,
And the peoples will stream to it.
2 Many nations will come and say,
“Come and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord
And to the house of the God of Jacob,
That He may teach us about His ways
And that we may walk in His paths.”
For from Zion will go forth the law,
Even the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

Two exact same verses and what about that passage about two witnesses being in agreement?

 

[Mitspa]

Col 2:14-17
So let no man judge you in food or drink, or regarding a feast day, or a new moon or the sabbaths. Which were all but a shadow of the things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

Christ fulfilled every jot and tittle of the law.

 

[Ryan]

Col 2:14-17

Yes, let's have a look at this.

Colossians 2:14-17. 14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him.

16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day— 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

Really? The certificate of debt is God's very own instructions he gave to his beloved people Israel? The certificate of debt is NOT following his commandments of the Law. This a complete twisting and distortion of Paul's very own words as he was completely Torah observant as in the numerous passages I cited.

And in verses 16 and 17 he is urging the followers to continue on in observance of the biblical Sabbath and the feast days. And not get discouraged if anyone were to question or mock their observance of such. He is giving them encouragement to continue following in the Law.

And the word "mere" in italics is an addition by the translators. Look it up yourself.

http://studybible.info/KJV_Strongs/Colossians 2

 

[Mitspa]

Paul makes these points throughout his epistles. This is why he spends so much time telling us that our natural mind cannot understand the gospel, that we have to become a fool to be made wise. So to hear someone say that it dont make sense to them? Only proves Paul overall point? That no man can come unto God in his flesh. God is a Spirit and those who worship Him, must worship Him by the spirit and have no confidence in their flesh or their natural minds.
So one MUST die to the law, to live in the Spirit.
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ, has set me free from the law of sin and death.
So one must die to the OLD LAW, to walk in the NEW.
this requires that one become a fool at His Cross.

 

[JLB]

And here lies the problem. Paul never, ever once told in his letters to not follow the Law of Moses. To do so, would have rocked the Jewish world and he surely would have been killed earlier, as he oversaw the death of many believers before his conversion. Teaching that the Torah passed away, was an automatic death sentence. All the verses you quoted, with the assertion you present, when matched with the verses I provided, would have made Paul the biggest hypocrite in the bible. A fake, fraudster.

Paul taught the Gentiles to follow his own lifestyle and example.
Join with others in following my example, brothers, and take note of those who live according to the pattern we gave you. (Philippians 3:17)

Whatever you have learned or received or heard from me, or seen in me--put it into practice. And the God of peace will be with you. (Philippians 4:9)

Therefore I urge you to imitate me. For this reason I am sending to you Timothy, my son whom I love, who is faithful in the Lord. He will remind you of my way of life in Christ Jesus, which agrees with what I teach everywhere in every church. (1 Corinthians 4: 16, 17)

because our gospel came to you not simply with words, but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and with deep conviction. You know how we lived among you for your sake. You became imitators of us and of the Lord; in spite of severe suffering, you welcomed the message with the joy given by the Holy Spirit. And so you became a model to all the believers in Macedonia and Achaia. (1 Thessalonians 1: 5-7)

Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ. I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the teachings, just as I passed them on to you. (1 Corinthians 11:1-2)

In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers, to keep away from every brother who is idle and does not live according to the teaching you received from us. For you yourselves know how you ought to follow our example. We were not idle when we were with you, nor did we eat anyone's food without paying for it. On the contrary, we worked night and day, laboring and toiling so that we would not be a burden to any of you. We did this, not because we do not have the right to such help, but in order to make ourselves a model for you to follow. (2 Thessalonians 3:6-9)

Paul set himself up as a model for Gentile believers to follow. So when Paul rested on Sabbaths and during the annual Sabbaths of the Biblical feasts, resting on those days would have become part of the work ethic that the Gentiles were supposed to follow.

Then Agrippa said to Paul, "Do you think that in such a short time you can persuade me to be a Christian?" Paul replied, "Short time or long--I pray God that not only you but all who are listening to me today may become what I am, except for these chains." (Acts 26:28)

Notice that Paul's prayer was for everyone listening to become, not only a Christian as Agrippa suggested, but a Christian specifically like Paul himself. Paul believed that he was an appropriate role model for all Christians, whether they were Gentiles or not. We are called to be imitators of Paul as he was imitating Christ. Now how did Christ walk and live?

Now how did Christ walk and live?

He only did what He saw His Father do.

He only said what He heard His Father say.

If you that, you will do well.


JLB

 

[Ryan]

He only did what He saw His Father do.

He only said what He heard His Father say.

If you that, you will do well.


JLB

Amen to that!

Deuteronomy 6:3 O Israel, you should listen and be careful to do it, that it may be well with you and that you may multiply greatly, just as the Lord, the God of your fathers, has promised you, in a land flowing with milk and honey.

Deuteronomy 6:25 It will be righteousness for us if we are careful to observe all this commandment before the Lord our God, just as He commanded us.

 

[Mitspa]

Of course Paul did not teach the law, he is the one who wrote that no man can be justified by the law. That Christ is the end of the law for righteousness.
That the law has been annulled because of its weakness and unprofitableness. For the law made nothing perfect. Heb 7:18-19
He wrote the law is not of faith, that the strength of sin is the law. He wrote that the law of the spirit of life in Christ has set us free from the law of sin and death.

He wrote that the ministry of death and condemnation, written in stones, has passed away for those who are in Christ. He was hated by the jews for this very reason!

Not to even mention, that the chruch did not meet on the sabbath, but on the first day of the week.

So of course Christ Jesus fulfilled every jot and tittle of the law, For He is the Word made flesh. When He was nailed to the Cross the law was finished. Thus Jesus said "IT IS FINISHED" so Paul taught that a believer must die to the law with Christ. And then live by the law of the Spirit.
Col 2:9-14.

 

[JLB]

Amen to that!

Deuteronomy 6:3 O Israel, you should listen and be careful to do it, that it may be well with you and that you may multiply greatly, just as the Lord, the God of your fathers, has promised you, in a land flowing with milk and honey.

Deuteronomy 6:25 It will be righteousness for us if we are careful to observe all this commandment before the Lord our God, just as He commanded us.

Yes and amen!

Deuteronomy 12 -

But you shall seek the place where the Lord your God chooses, out of all your tribes, to put His name for His dwelling place; and there you shall go. 6 There you shall take your burnt offerings, your sacrifices, your tithes, the heave offerings of your hand, your vowed offerings, your freewill offerings, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks...


Take heed to yourself that you do not offer your burnt offerings in every place that you see; 14 but in the place which the Lord chooses, in one of your tribes, there you shall offer your burnt offerings, and there you shall do all that I command you...

And you shall offer your burnt offerings, the meat and the blood, on the altar of the Lord your God; and the blood of your sacrifices shall be poured out on the altar of the Lord your God, and you shall eat the meat. 28 Observe and obey all these words which I command you, that it may go well with you and your children after you forever, when you do what is good and right in the sight of the Lord your God...


32 Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it...


Please write from Jerusalem and lets us know how its going and how the weather is.

Remember Paul's words and manner of lifestyle to keep the law of Moses...

as he wrote to us -

For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them."

Have a blessed trip to Jerusalem this Passover.


JLB

 

[Ryan]

Yes and amen!

Deuteronomy 12 -

But you shall seek the place where the Lord your God chooses, out of all your tribes, to put His name for His dwelling place; and there you shall go. 6 There you shall take your burnt offerings, your sacrifices, your tithes, the heave offerings of your hand, your vowed offerings, your freewill offerings, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks...


Take heed to yourself that you do not offer your burnt offerings in every place that you see; 14 but in the place which the Lord chooses, in one of your tribes, there you shall offer your burnt offerings, and there you shall do all that I command you...

And you shall offer your burnt offerings, the meat and the blood, on the altar of the Lord your God; and the blood of your sacrifices shall be poured out on the altar of the Lord your God, and you shall eat the meat. 28 Observe and obey all these words which I command you, that it may go well with you and your children after you forever, when you do what is good and right in the sight of the Lord your God...


32 Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it...


Please write from Jerusalem and lets us know how its going and how the weather is.

Remember Paul's words and manner of lifestyle to keep the law of Moses...

as he wrote to us -

For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them."

Have a blessed trip to Jerusalem this Passover.


JLB

Thanks for the kind wishes. I will be in Jerusalem in Spirit as that is where the Lord's heart is fixed on.

Thus says the Lord: 'I will return to Zion [referring to Christ's second coming], and dwell in the midst of Jerusalem. Jerusalem shall be called the City of Truth, the Mountain of the Lord of hosts, the Holy Mountain'" Zechariah 8:3

One of my greatest desires is to celebrate a feast in the land of Israel. But until the temple is rebuilt, the 3 annual pilgrimages cannot be followed. Solely because there is no temple. But come the millenium, this will be re-instituted.

Zechariah 14 16 Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths. 17 And it will be that whichever of the families of the earth does not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, there will be no rain on them. 18 If the family of Egypt does not go up or enter, then no rain will fall on them; it will be the plague with which the Lord smites the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Booths. 19 This will be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Booths

Zechariah 14 20 In that day there will be inscribed on the bells of the horses, “HOLY TO THE LORD.” And the cooking pots in the Lord’s house will be like the bowls before the altar. 21 Every cooking pot in Jerusalem and in Judah will be holy to the Lord of hosts; and all who sacrifice will come and take of them and boil in them. And there will no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the Lord of hosts in that day.

So thank you for thinking of me. But I assure you, not going to Jerusalem now to observe the Feasts cannot be done in accordance with God's Word due to lack of a temple. So until then, we do the best with what we got.

 

[Mitspa]

Gal 4:25-26 For this Hagar is Mount Siniai in Arabia, and corressponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
But the JERUSALEM ABOVE is free, which is the mother of us all.

So we have the earthly Jerusalem and We have HEAVENLY JERUSALEM.
Heb 12:22 But you have come to Mt. Zion at to the CITY OF THE LIVING GOD, HEAVENLY JERUSALEM.

Rev 3:12 NEW JERUSALEM
Rev 21:2
Rev 21:10

From the mouth of two or three witnesses let every word be established.

 

[jasoncran]

/

1 And him who is weak in the faith receive ye -- not to determinations of reasonings; 2 one doth believe that he may eat all things -- and he who is weak doth eat herbs; 3 let not him who is eating despise him who is not eating: and let not him who is not eating judge him who is eating, for God did receive him. 4 Thou -- who art thou that art judging another's domestic? to his own master he doth stand or fall; and he shall be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand. 5 One doth judge one day above another, and another doth judge every day [alike]; let each in his own mind be fully assured. 6 He who is regarding the day, to the Lord he doth regard [it], and he who is not regarding the day, to the Lord he doth not regard [it]. He who is eating, to the Lord he doth eat, for he doth give thanks to God; and he who is not eating, to the Lord he doth not eat, and doth give thanks to God. 7 For none of us to himself doth live, and none to himself doth die; 8 for both, if we may live, to the Lord we live; if also we may die, to the Lord we die; both then if we may live, also if we may die, we are the Lord's; 9 for because of this Christ both died and rose again, and lived again, that both of dead and of living he may be Lord. 10 And thou, why dost thou judge thy brother? or again, thou, why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand at the tribunal of the Christ; 11 for it hath been written, `I live! saith the Lord -- to Me bow shall every knee, and every tongue shall confess to God;' 12 so, then, each of us concerning himself shall give reckoning to God; 13 no longer, therefore, may we judge one another, but this judge ye rather, not to put a stumbling-stone before the brother, or an offence. 14 I have known, and am persuaded, in the Lord Jesus, that nothing [is] unclean of itself, except to him who is reckoning anything to be unclean -- to that one [it is] unclean; 15 and if through victuals thy brother is grieved, no more dost thou walk according to love; do not with thy victuals destroy that one for whom Christ died. 16 Let not, then, your good be evil spoken of, 17 for the reign of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit; 18 for he who in these things is serving the Christ, [is] acceptable to God and approved of men. 19 So, then, the things of peace may we pursue, and the things of building up one another; 20 for the sake of victuals cast not down the work of God; all things, indeed, [are] pure, but evil [is] to the man who is eating through stumbling. 21 Right [it is] not to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor to [do anything] in which thy brother doth stumble, or is made to fall, or is weak. 22 Thou hast faith! to thyself have [it] before God; happy is he who is not judging himself in what he doth approve, 23 and he who is making a difference, if he may eat, hath been condemned, because [it is] not of faith; and all that [is] not of faith is sin

romans 14 ylt

http://www.biblestudytools.com/ylt/romans/14.html
odd. when moses gave the command for succot there wasn't an a temple but the tabernacle.what did it have in it?

if jesus didn't render the law in parts obsolete then well a Christians should be circumcising their sons and so forth. not to mention well its kinda hard to kill amekelites and so forth.

the

 

[Ryan]

Gal 4:25-26 For this Hagar is Mount Siniai in Arabia, and corressponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
But the JERUSALEM ABOVE is free, which is the mother of us all.

So we have the earthly Jerusalem and We have HEAVENLY JERUSALEM.
Heb 12:22 But you have come to Mt. Zion at to the CITY OF THE LIVING GOD, HEAVENLY JERUSALEM.

Rev 3:12 NEW JERUSALEM
Rev 21:2
Rev 21:10

From the mouth of two or three witnesses let every word be established.

As FrancisDeSales and Jethro(I think) have kindly tried to explain to you, Galatians was written for those trying to achieve salvation by works. Hence the allegory with Hagar and Abraham and not believing in the promises which was through Sarai. Nowhere did God tell Abraham not to obey him. Yout theology implies that after Abraham believed in God, he was no longer required to follow his righteous instructions and commandments. I will not and cannot take the time that others have afforded you. Especially in light of continued disregard for the 15 or so verses I posted on the previous page explaining Paul was completely Torah observant. And if what you have posted and what JLB referenced to, in doing so, he would have fallen from grace for being Torah observant. If anybody wants to get an honest, differing opinion from yours of the difficult passages of Galatians, I would be more then happy to explain it in a PM.

One cannot explain away this:

Isaiah 2:2-4

Now it will come about that
In the last days
The mountain of the house of the Lord
Will be established as the chief of the mountains,
And will be raised above the hills;
And all the nations will stream to it.
3 And many peoples will come and say,
“Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
To the house of the God of Jacob;
That He may teach us concerning His ways
And that we may walk in His paths.”
For the law will go forth from Zion
And the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.


Like I said, it's not a burden or a yoke of bondage. How can it be? Would God have given his choosen people a set of commandments and instructions that they could never achieve?

 

[jasoncran]

ryan was the cross neeed if the ot saints and its system that effective? why would jesus not then say to the Pharisees do what the torah says and not died.

ryan its funny I have a two jews tell me, they didn't want to be under the torah.one of them was orthodox, and other saved and also raised orthodox. the former is a levite.

 

[reba]

Heb 12:18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,
Heb 12:19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:

Heb 12:20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:
Heb 12:21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

 

[Ryan]

/
romans 14 ylt

http://www.biblestudytools.com/ylt/romans/14.html
odd. when moses gave the command for succot there wasn't an a temple but the tabernacle.what did it have in it?

if jesus didn't render the law in parts obsolete then well a Christians should be circumcising their sons and so forth. not to mention well its kinda hard to kill amekelites and so forth.

the

Exodus 23:14-17 4 “Three times a year you shall celebrate a feast to Me. 15 You shall observe the Feast of Unleavened Bread; for seven days you are to eat unleavened bread, as I commanded you, at the appointed time in the month Abib, for in it you came out of Egypt. And none shall appear before Me empty-handed. 16 Also you shall observe the Feast of the Harvest of the first fruits of your labors from what you sow in the field; also the Feast of the Ingathering at the end of the year when you gather in the fruit of your labors from the field. 17 Three times a year all your males shall appear before the Lord God.

How can one appear before the Lord without a tabernacle or temple?

As far as circumcision, in the millenium do you not think all of us will not be circumcised, or (gulp) facing the knife? It's God's law that is written on our hearts, and the last time I checked, that was still part of the Torah.

And the Amelekites, if they only would have obeyed to begin with, they wouldn't have faced future conflict with their descendents. Think of Haman. He was an Amelekite. Could have been avoided if they heeded God's Word.

 

[Sparkey]

God is love, those who know love, know very well that love fulfills all the laws of God. Because in love we are made in His Image. The written code is a wall that stands between a believer and the love of God. For if one attempts to serve God by the letter, their own flesh will witness against them. Any separation from Gods love is a separation from our ability to love others. For love others based upon the confidence we have in His love for us. Legalism destroys this confidence and separates us from the very source of our obedience.
I will never love others but by receiving Gods love for me.
It is not me that loves, but God loves through me. If through legalism I am separated from God? I am cutoff from the source of my obedience.

I agree with what you have said and consider it to be (not saying that this is wrong, read on) but I consider it to be obvious. The Bible so clearly states what you have said in the above post that there should be none who would come against it.

But there we go, right? Even as I say this, my pedantic side comes to correct one word. It's only one word and I hope you will agree that the law does not separate believers from God, instead it separates sinners from God. I say that my mention of this one word is my pedantic side speaking. But perhaps it's not that, not really. I do see that the Law and the Love of God serve the very same purpose but that the Law can not accomplish what it was proposed for, failing to rectify the situation, it is reduced in it's purpose to that of a transporter to the Love of God which has provided a way to put it right.

Still, kindly pardon my correction and understand that I am 100% on your side in this. The Law itself, although it is good, pronounced good, remains good, can not, simply can not (by itself) accomplish the purpose of God. Words are funny, aren't they? And I mean "strange," not funny ha-ha. Within them are truths as well as distortions of the truth. The disclaimer, "Read what I say and know what I mean," should be attached clearly to the label of every can of words we produce. Pretty sure that I caught your meaning, kindly correct me if I did not.