When did the Law pass or has it passed away?

[Ryan]

ryan was the cross neeed if the ot saints and its system that effective? why would jesus not then say to the Pharisees do what the torah says and not died.

ryan its funny I have a two jews tell me, they didn't want to be under the torah.one of them was orthodox, and other saved and also raised orthodox. the former is a levite.

Exodus 34:6-7 "Then the Lord passed by in front of him and proclaimed, “The Lord, the Lord God, compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in lovingkindness and truth; 7 who keeps lovingkindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin;..."

How could sin have been forgiven then before the Levitical system was given, and the crucifixion and resurrection?

If the Levitical system took away sin, then sin and sin freely and make sure to bring a good size bull to the altar. If God already forgave before the Levitical system, what was its purpose then?

 

[Sparkey]

Just by the way, I would like to thank each Member here who has taken the effort to calm the white-waters of the stream of words that flow within this thread.

Too often Moderators have the unpleasant duty of the "Rock Position" where they need to become the ultimate rock, letting the waters dash themselves upon them, not upon each other. It is very good in my sight what the Lord is doing here in each of us, with each of us. This one rock praised Him for you, each of you. When ever two or more streams join together, there will be turbulence... yet downstream, the one river is stronger and better equipped to accomplish change.

 

[Mitspa]

I agree with what you have said and consider it to be (not saying that this is wrong, read on) but I consider it to be obvious. The Bible so clearly states what you have said in the above post that there should be none who would come against it.

But there we go, right? Even as I say this, my pedantic side comes to correct one word. It's only one word and I hope you will agree that the law does not separate believers from God, instead it separates sinners from God. I say that my mention of this one word is my pedantic side speaking. But perhaps it's not that, not really. I do see that the Law and the Love of God serve the very same purpose but that the Law can not accomplish what it was proposed for, failing to rectify the situation, it is reduced in it's purpose to that of a transporter to the Love of God which has provided a way to put it right.

Still, kindly pardon my correction and understand that I am 100% on your side in this. The Law itself, although it is good, pronounced good, remains good, can not, simply can not (by itself) accomplish the purpose of God. Words are funny, aren't they? And I mean "strange," not funny ha-ha. Within them are truths as well as distortions of the truth. The disclaimer, "Read what I say and know what I mean," should be attached clearly to the label of every can of words we produce. Pretty sure that I caught your meaning, kindly correct me if I did not.

I think one could use the term "law" and mean the written code thats purpose was to make us see that we could not!
Then I think as Paul explained that the "law" is spiritual which in effect gives us the grace and ability to obey in love.
What I am trying present is not lawlessness at all but that we are in fact empowered by being set free from the judgement of the letter into a new nature. New and higher law.
But one can only walk in this by confidence that one is freely justified by His grace.
For instance some of the most "spiritual" people we ever meet are those who have just been born-again? They are so aware of Gods forgiveness and His Grace that they are in fact walking in the Spirit of Grace. What happens when these rules and mans religion is laid upon them? Many of them lose the joy of salvation or even stumble. Now correction can never be outside of being justified freely by His Grace. Because it is the confidence of grace that gives us power over our weaknesses of the flesh.
If a believer really knows and believes that Gods grace will overcome every weakness, they will in fact begin to be honest with God and allow Him to search and cleanse them. But if a believer is so confused as to think God expects them to keep the written code, they will not be honest instead they will form religious mask to hide the shame of their own fleah. Fig leaves will be put together and outward coats of religious paint will be applied. But in confidence of grace, we are taught to live sincere lives from our hearts before Our Great God of mercy.

 

[JLB]

Exodus 34:6-7 "Then the Lord passed by in front of him and proclaimed, “The Lord, the Lord God, compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in lovingkindness and truth; 7 who keeps lovingkindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin;..."

How could sin have been forgiven then before the Levitical system was given, and the crucifixion and resurrection?

If the Levitical system took away sin, then sin and sin freely and make sure to bring a good size bull to the altar. If God already forgave before the Levitical system, what was its purpose then?

Where in your scripture does it say the Levitical Priesthood took away sin.

Your scripture that you quoted is a description of The Lord God, not the Levitical Priesthood.

For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins. Hebrews 10:4


JLB

 

[jasoncran]

he did. its shown in the torah.

how did noah get right with god and found grace? how did david being found guilty of death for adultery and murder find forgiveness ? when theres none such provision. if a man commited murder he died in the law.

mannaseh also did such and repented while in Babylon as was restored. how could he have been forgiven if the levitical system was the only way? not even the Chassidic jews take that position.

 

[jasoncran]

then ryan.

kindly ignore this acts 15 verse and chapter as it doesn't apply to the gentiles

15 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.
3 And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.
4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.
5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.
13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia.
24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
28 .
32 And Judas and Silas, being prophets also themselves, exhorted the brethren with many words, and confirmed them.
33 And after they had tarried there a space, they were let go in peace from the brethren unto the apostles.
34 Notwithstanding it pleased Silas to abide there still.
35 Paul also and Barnabas continued in Antioch, teaching and preaching the word of the Lord, with many others also.
36 And some days after Paul said unto Barnabas, Let us go again and visit our brethren in every city where we have preached the word of the Lord, and see how they do.
37 And Barnabas determined to take with them John, whose surname was Mark.
38 But Paul thought not good to take him with them, who departed from them from Pamphylia, and went not with them to the work.
39 And the contention was so sharp between them, that they departed asunder one from the other: and so Barnabas took Mark, and sailed unto Cyprus;
40 And Paul chose Silas, and departed, being recommended by the brethren unto the grace of God.
41 And he went through Syria and Cilicia, confirming the churches.

For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
30 So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle:
31 Which when they had read, they rejoiced for the consolation

why isn't the circumcision and or the shabat listed here? surely Paul and silas both jews would understand their torah.

 

[Ryan]

Where in your scripture does it say the Levitical Priesthood took away sin.

Your scripture that you quoted is a description of The Lord God, not the Levitical Priesthood.

For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins. Hebrews 10:4


JLB

You completely missed my point which I think Jason understood as he is more educated then most in the Torah. My point is the passage in Exodus, pre-dates the implementation of the Levitical system. God forgave sins before cross, and forgave them afterwards. I wanted to know what the purpose of the Levitical system from Jason. Of course the blood of bulls doesn't forgive sin.

But you have choosen to ignore posts I have provided in response to yours. Why? I've taken the time to respond directly to yours.

 

[jasoncran]

the purpose of the levitical system is a type of atonement and also a shadow of Christ.

the problem is with the torah it changes things. women cant be levites. so in the millennium neither will they nor will they that are listed as unable due to physical defects.

 

[Ryan]

he did. its shown in the torah.

how did noah get right with god and found grace? how did david being found guilty of death for adultery and murder find forgiveness ? when theres none such provision. if a man commited murder he died in the law.

mannaseh also did such and repented while in Babylon as was restored. how could he have been forgiven if the levitical system was the only way? not even the Chassidic jews take that position.

That's what I was saying. Maybe I didn't make it clear and tried to ask a rhetorical question that failed.

What was the purpose then of the Levitical system and the purpose of the millennial temple where sacrifices will be offered?

 

[jasoncran]

the idea of worship as you say cant be found. why? read Ezekiel for it says that in order for the levites to be accepted they had to be atoned. so if this is just worship then why does it say that levite must atone first before he can see the Lord?

remember yom kippur is also done in the millennium.

 

[Ryan]

then ryan.

kindly ignore this acts 15 verse and chapter as it doesn't apply to the gentiles







why isn't the circumcision and or the shabat listed here? surely Paul and silas both jews would understand their torah.

Shabbat is listed as "Moses is taught in the synagogue.". When we're believers meeting and where? In synagogues on Shabbat.

Was Abraham and his family not circumcised some 15-20 years after he was declared righteous?

Thank you for reading as I posted circumcision to see if anyone was paying attention.

 

[Ryan]

the purpose of the levitical system is a type of atonement and also a shadow of Christ.

the problem is with the torah it changes things. women cant be levites. so in the millennium neither will they nor will they that are listed as unable due to physical defects.

What's the purpose then of the last 9 chapters of Ezekiel?

 

[jasoncran]

but if you noted it to the gentiles doesn't say that they nor anyone in the church need to be circumcised.

the law is merely an outward expression of what was inside. but it was a shadow not the make of that shadow!

actually they weren't. if beleivers met in the synagogue then I can today fellowship with God denying ANTI-CHRIST JEWS.you bet when they talked about the messiah jesus was never mentioned in those days. sorry. they didn't met in the temples then most likely. kinda hard for a Christian to take that risk when surely in a small town they would know if you are Christian or a jew

 

[Ryan]

the idea of worship as you say cant be found. why? read Ezekiel for it says that in order for the levites to be accepted they had to be atoned. so if this is just worship then why does it say that levite must atone first before he can see the Lord?

remember yom kippur is also done in the millennium.

Hence the theological debate about the red heifer, and the theological debate there. Of which, I do not completely understand. Admittedly

 

[jasoncran]

What's the purpose then of the last 9 chapters of Ezekiel?

simple a conditional promise to isreal in captivity.

Ezekiel 43

And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places.
8 In their setting of their threshold by my thresholds, and their post by my posts, and the wall between me and them, they have even defiled my holy name by their abominations that they have committed: wherefore I have consumed them in mine anger

Now let them put away their whoredom, and the carcases of their kings, far from me, and I will dwell in the midst of them for ever.
10 Thou son of man, shew the house to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities: and let them measure the pattern.
11 And if they be ashamed of all that they have done, shew them the form of the house, and the fashion thereof, and the goings out thereof, and the comings in thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the laws thereof: and write it in their sight, that they may keep the whole form thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and do them.

if they do this, if they repent then I will dwell among them in Jerusalem.

kinda hard to not see that conditional promise. where is that generation today and ole zeke.?

DEAD.

 

[Ryan]

but if you noted it to the gentiles doesn't say that they nor anyone in the church need to be circumcised.

the law is merely an outward expression of what was inside. but it was a shadow not the make of that shadow!

actually they weren't. if beleivers met in the synagogue then I can today fellowship with God denying ANTI-CHRIST JEWS.you bet when they talked about the messiah jesus was never mentioned in those days. sorry. they didn't met in the temples then most likely. kinda hard for a Christian to take that risk when surely in a small town they would know if you are Christian or a jew

Then why have the Jerusalem Council to decide the minimum requirements for those entering into the faith.

In the later epistles, when Paul says those who are weak in faith, he is pointing out Jews who have not accepted Jesus as their Messiah. There were believers and non believers in the synagogues.

 

[Mitspa]

Hawk I read your poem and enjoyed it. It sounds to me as if the writter of this poem was seeing the truth of man, and the relationship with the written code. I dare to guess this person had to write in a poem the truth of the gospel? For if they came out in a straitforward way to say these things, it might have caused them harm?
How the gospel turns the world upside-down? It takes no faith to believe in the law of sin and death. But to receive Gods goodness, based upon His own goodness. takes a "fool" and a "child" to believe!
Paul spends so much time telling us that our natural mind cannot understand the gospel? The gospel will never make sense to those who do not understand Gods great love for man.
I received God Love by pouring forth of His love in my heart by the Holy Spirit. I did nothing but believe. For years I struggled to find the reason he loved me so? The more I looked the less reasons I found for His Love. I finally understood that I am nothing of myself, but yet the Lord of Heaven and earth loved me? Now I see that becasue He loves me I am something and have great value.
God is love, those who know love, know very well that love fulfills all the laws of God. Because in love we are made in His Image. The written code is a wall that stands between a believer and the love of God. For if one attempts to serve God by the letter, their own flesh will witness against them. Any seperation from Gods love is a seperation from our ability to love others. For love others based upon the confidence we have in His love for us. Legalism destroys this confidence and seperates us from the very source of our obedience.
I will never love others but by receiving Gods love for me.
It is not me that loves, but God loves through me. If through legalism I am seperated from God? I am cutoff from the source of my obedience.

Gal 3:1-3
Oh foolish Galatians who has cast a evil spell upon you?

Only this would I learn of you, did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law or by the hearing of faith?

Are you so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, you are now made perfect by the flesh?

Gal 3:10-12

For cursed is everyone that continueth not IN ALL THINGS WRITTEN in the book of the law, to do them.

But that NO MAN IS JUSTIFIED by the law, in the sight of God, is EVIDENT. for the Righteous shall live by faith.
AND THE LAW IS NOT OF FAITH.

 

[jasoncran]

Then why have the Jerusalem Council to decide the minimum requirements for those entering into the faith.

In the later epistles, when Paul says those who are weak in faith, he is pointing out Jews who have not accepted Jesus as their Messiah. There were believers and non believers in the synagogues.

so that means I can go the local Chassidic temple say chabad.org and learn?

im sorry that doesn't help your case. remember in those days law and grace coincided. but not anymore.


show me where he has says jews that go the temples. why would the gospel be read in the temple. this same temple that killed Christians?

 

[Ryan]

simple a conditional promise to isreal in captivity.

Ezekiel 43


if they do this, if they repent then I will dwell among them in Jerusalem.

kinda hard to not see that conditional promise. where is that generation today and ole zeke.?

DEAD.

Sorry, that temple will be built. 9 chapters which you say is a draft version, and not gonna happen. Sorry, don't agree.

 

[jasoncran]

uhm when one comes to Christ does one loose all they were taught from cults or the world? NO. so that means if those Pharisees were saved they had some habits to change.

I came from a jw background and I had to learn a lot all over again.

the trinity and hell being one of those things.