Wow Randy. You'd just making a claim without any explanation at all. It doesn't mean what you think it means.
Who made God?
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
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Randy,
Now answer my question: With which group or church are you associated that teaches your kind of doctrines?
Oz
You know the answer to your question. No one can openly teach Jesus is the firstborn (always been the Son) as they would be kicked out. That however doesn't make what I state a lie. In Jesus's day no one could openly teach He was the Son of God in the synagogue as they would have been kicked out of the synagogue.
Jesus has His own spirit. "Father into your hands I commit my spirit"
The Holy Spirit is the Fathers Spirit.
There is only one God. Ask Jesus (the head of the body of Christ) who that God is. As I assume from your posts you consider that you know Him. Does He know "you"?
God created through His Son whom "He" appointed Lord and Christ. Jesus is the way to the "Father". Jesus is the mediator between God and man. Not Jesus and man. They shall all be taught by "God" as in those who listen and learn from the Father go to the Son.
Randy
You did not learn from Jesus (the head of the body of Christ) that He always was. You did learn He was with the Father before the world began.
You can ask Him if this is true. (below) What will you do if he answers you yes. Tell you brothers? Good luck.
Is Jesus God?
He never dies
yes, He is all that the Father is.
No, He has always been the Son.
You can ask Him if this is true. (below) What will you do if he answers you yes. Tell you brothers? Good luck.
Is Jesus God?
He never dies
yes, He is all that the Father is.
No, He has always been the Son.
That is not a proper use of that verse. When we look at the context of what Jesus was saying, the meaning becomes clear:
Mat 18:1 At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, "Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?"
Mat 18:2 And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them
Mat 18:3 and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 18:4 Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. (ESV)
We can see that it has nothing to do with just believing what one is taught, especially without questioning, or that the Christian faith is simple, or that we need to just keep things simple to understand, or anything of that sort. What we see is that the disciples were wondering about who was "the greatest in the kingdom of heaven," and it is in response to that that Jesus brings forward a child and then says those things. The whole point of what Jesus says in verse 3, the portion you used, is seen in verse 4--the need for humility; power and importance are irrelevant and can hinder.
We most certainly do learn from Jesus that he always was:
Joh 8:24 I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins." (ESV)
Joh 8:28 So Jesus said to them, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he, and that I do nothing on my own authority, but speak just as the Father taught me. (ESV)
Note that "he" is not in the Greek text; it has been added by translators.
Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am." (ESV)
Three instances of Jesus claiming to be the I AM, in one chapter. He cannot be the I AM and have not existed at some point in the past. Being the I AM means that he has always existed.
Why do you insist on believing something to be true that is self-contradictory? That is irrational.
That Jesus never dies is utterly irrelevant to his being God. At one point in the future believers will be changed, never to die, but that clearly won't make us God. God doesn't die because he is eternal, having always existed. And that is what we learn about Jesus, as I've shown above.
Then, if Jesus truly "is all that the Father is"--something I agree with--then it follows that he must also be eternal, having always existed. To then say "no," is to contradict everything.
Can a woman be pregnant and not pregnant at the same time?
Gods firstborn would be a being and such a being would state "before Abraham was born I AM"
The fullness was pleased to dwell in Him. (given)
A beginning but No end.
Jesus=>Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.
Jim Parker
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Firstborn FROM THE DEAD of those who believe and will be born again through baptism in water and in the Spirit from being dead in trespasses and sins. Ro 6:3-7
Christ is he first born of a race of God-bearing (Father, son and Holy Ghost) human beings who are being conformed to the image of the Son.
Rom 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He (the son) might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jhn 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
You still continue to avoid this question: With which group or church are you associated that teaches your kind of doctrines?
Why are you avoiding an answer to this issue?
Oz
Psalm 97:7 Let all who serve an image be ashamed, those who boast about idols. Worship him, all you gods.
Psalm 97:1 Yahweh is king! Let the earth rejoice; let many coastlands be glad.
...
Revelation 19:16 And he has a name written on his outer garment and on his thigh: “King of kings and Lord of lords.”
Yahweh is king.
Yahweh is King of kings.
Yahweh has a thigh!
Yahweh is Lord of lords.
Revelation 21:22 And I did not see a temple in it, for the Lord God All-Powerful is its temple, and the Lamb.
The Lord God All-Powerful is the Lamb (and the door, the good shepherd, the way, the light, the truth, the second Adam, the firstborn, the Son, etc.)
No need to be ashamed of it. That is, if your God IS the Lamb.
I'm sorry you went there because it is a matter of understanding context and my application here is perfectly within the context of the whole and is easily understood by any parent or grandparent.
The answer is actually quite simple. There is a requirement for a God that always was and never wasn't to be if there is anything that exist today.
The reason is that "stuff" of the universe can't self create itself from absolute nothingness. For stuff to be, there has to be a creator.
Considering the creator could not be the creator of himself...as you can't get something from nothing...the creator has to be eternal from eternal past.
Hello Bill, calvin here.
I think you might be flying a 747 here. way over some heads.
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A timely? reminder to those who are in debate.
from the board rules as originated by Free.
4. Where Scripture is concerned, do not make the unsupported claim that another member's position has no basis in Scripture. If you believe that someone is in error you must respectfully cite Scripture to support your assertion. Assume they have interpreted Scripture in an honest attempt to understand the Word of the Lord.
from the board rules as originated by Free.
4. Where Scripture is concerned, do not make the unsupported claim that another member's position has no basis in Scripture. If you believe that someone is in error you must respectfully cite Scripture to support your assertion. Assume they have interpreted Scripture in an honest attempt to understand the Word of the Lord.
Don't confuse being ashamed with leading a rebellion. I openly state Jesus is firstborn when asked. I am not leading a rebellion.
The Father is in the Son. But as you also believe the Father is not the Son. They are one in the manner Jesus taught.
You state Yahweh is King. Yes, even the Son calls Him God .Jesus is Yahweh's Christ. It was Yahweh that anointed Jesus and declared Jesus is His Son placing all thing under Jesus. Jesus received authority just as His Being was defined by God. The fullness was pleased to dwell in Him. One day this world shall become the Kingdom of God and of His Christ. There is only one God just as there is only one Christ. Its quite clear in scripture Jesus is what He is by the grace of the Father. (God)
I state Jesus is Gods Son and has always been the Son. A beginning but no end.
Jesus states Yahweh/Father is His God and Our God and that He is Gods Son. I worship Jesus as the "Son of God and Christ the Lord" and the Father as "God Almighty". The Apostles did as well.
In defining Jesus's being He has His own Spirit AND all the fullness of the Godhead was pleased to dwell IN Him. God made Jesus first in everything. Jesus is the firstborn. Before the angels of God before the world began. And Jesus is declared the exact image of the wisdom and power of God. All the treasures of wisdom and knowledge and all the power of God was pleased to dwell IN Him. In that context Jesus the Son is God. All that the Father is. But as firstborn Jesus has His own Spirit -not Devine as there is only One God who is Spirit the Father. In that context Jesus is not God.
Randy
I have to ask...are you serious? Then I read this section over again and have to ask....are you talking about Jesus being born to the Father in heaven...pre-incarnate .....or are you referring to Jesus being born on earth via Mary?
I also have to ask, by "Jesus has His own spirit" do you mean as part of His incarnation He received a spirt just as we do?
And thus your statement that God's son had "a beginning" is unbiblical.
On an orthodox Christian statement, sure.
But put your thinking cap on; if the Son had a beginning then all the treasures and knowledge and power of God, did NOT dwell (live) in Him prior to your supposed beginning.
If you were meaning that some in here are lacking in humility, that could be the case, but it may not be the case. But that would be a proper use of that verse based on context. Is that what you meant?