Therefore, you don't seem to believe in this biblical doctrine of the Trinity that is summarised like this:
(image courtesy Christianity 201)
This is taken from my article, Is the Trinity taught in the Bible?
Are you opposed to the Trinity?
Oz
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Who made God?
- Thread starter OzSpen
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Therefore, you don't seem to believe in this biblical doctrine of the Trinity that is summarised like this:
(image courtesy Christianity 201)
This is taken from my article, Is the Trinity taught in the Bible?
Are you opposed to the Trinity?
Oz
That is not what the Scriptures teach. 'For by him [Jesus, the Son] all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him' (Col 1:16 ESV).
God did not create only 'through' Jesus but also 'by' Jesus. That's what Col 1:16 teaches.
Heb 1:2 and John 1:3-14 teach the same.
Oz
Which of these two statements is scripture?Therefore, you don't seem to believe in this biblical doctrine of the Trinity that is summarised like this:
(image courtesy Christianity 201)
This is taken from my article, Is the Trinity taught in the Bible?
Are you opposed to the Trinity?
Oz
Fathers promise=>In the last days I will pour out the Holy Spirit
Fathers promise=>In the last days I will pour out My Spirit
According to acts 2 the Spirit Jesus sent He received from the Father.
Jesus=>Matt 10:20 ...for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.
Jesus=>The Spirit of the Sovereign Lord is upon me, for the Lord has anointed me....
Father=>"Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will bring justice to the nations.
God is Spirit. Jesus calls the Father the One true God. If Jesus always was and always was God how then do you hold to one God for Jesus stated on the cross, "Father into your hands I commit my spirit?"
Hebrews
When God brings the firstborn into the world He commands all His angels to bow to Him,
the assembly of the firstborn
Paul
The firstborn of all creation
Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"
Hebrews
The Father has glorified His Son
In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. 3The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.
The Father=>I am what I am
The Son from what I see in scripture=>I am what I am by the grace of God
hebrews 1:2 supports God created through His Son.
Paul also states all things come from the Father; Through Jesus
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
Randy,
That's not what the Bible teaches as is confirmed by Col 1:16. See also the article, Was Jesus created?
So you stated here that you are not a Trinitarian. Are you a Unitarian or Jehovah's Witness? With which religious group do you associate because of your doctrines?
Oz
Why do you avoid dealing with the Trinitarian biblical details I provided? Because you are not Trinitarian! Isn't that the case?
Oz
Isn't it amazing what you do to skirt around the Scriptures that demonstrate that Jesus created the universe? Col 1:16; John 1:3-14. And Heb 1:2 teaches the same because the Trinitarian God created. Period! That means Jesus created the universe.
That's the biblical teaching but you are coming across more and more like the JWs who knock on my door and with whom I get into discussions.
Are you associated with the Jehovah's Witnesses, Christadelphian or some similar group that teaches your doctrines?
Oz
By whose Spirit and by whose will did Jesus create what He created? By whose Spirit did Jesus perform miracles? By whose Spirit did Jesus speak the words of God? By whose Spirit does Jesus live and never dies? Put to death in the flesh but made alive in the Spirit Jesus went and preached to the spirits in prison.
Randy
Not in the exact manner of your chart. Certainly I believe in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I note the word "Son"
Randy
I was baptized in a Lutheran church but I was baptized in the name of Jesus not Martin Luther. I hold Jesus is the head of the body of Christ and its Him I follow. My rabbi.
Randy,
So do you agree with the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity as taught in the Bible. Telling me you 'believe in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit' does not tell me whether you are a Trinitarian, Unitarian, or some other -ian.
Oz
I didn't ask where you were baptised. This was my inquiry:
Are you associated with the Jehovah's Witnesses, Christadelphians or some similar group that teaches your doctrines?
Oz
No
Randy,
With which group or church are you associated that teaches your kind of doctrines?
Oz
My doctrines are that Jesus is the Christ the Son of the living God and the mediator between "God" and man. Pick one.
If you mean Jesus as Gods firstborn anyone who pushed that would be driven out as history would show and I am not leading a rebellion. I answered your questions with truth. You don't like my answers hence the "inquisition" These questions you ask don't support your stance. You can't have a Jesus who always was and hold to one God. Jesus is Gods firstborn. Do you base your theology on denominations or what you read in scripture? Your foundation is "mystery" mine is not. And I also state to you its clear to me the Jesus who was (His Spirit) was in the tent of the body God prepared for Him as Mary conceived by the Holy Spirit. The Father was still in Him.
As I stated my stance will never change.
Is Jesus God?
He never dies.
Yes, He is all that the Father is.
No, He has always been the Son.
Randy
Papa Zoom
CF Ambassador
Randy, you'd make things a lot easier if you actually answered questions directly. Where did you learn these things because it's not from reading the Bible.
yes, it is in the bible.
Hebrews
When God brings the firstborn into the world He commands all His angels to bow to Him,
...the assembly of the firstborn
Paul
The firstborn of all creation
Jesus=>
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, AND Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
Randy
We've been over this. "Firstborn" does not necessarily mean one whose existence has a beginning. It does in relation to humans but in relation to the Son, it never means that. It usually means that he is preeminent over all creation, as in Paul's use in Col. 1:15, or that through his death and resurrection, he is the first of the new creation, as in Rev. 1:5.
We seen in Pslam 89:
20 I have found David, my servant; with my holy oil I have anointed him,
...
27 And I will make him the firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth. (ESV)
Clearly this use of "firstborn" means that David was going to be "the highest of the kings of the earth," and says nothing of his having not existed at one point.
With Col 1:15, we have the context of the verses that follow it:
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things were created through him and for him.
17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. (ESV)
Quite clearly, "all things...in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible...were created through him and for him." For firstborn in verse 15 to mean that at one point the Son did not exist, then that would directly contradict what immediately follows in verses 16 and 17. The only logical conclusion is that the Son has always existed. This agrees with John 1:3 where the same logic applies.
As for Heb. 1:6, you also must consider the context:
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. (ESV)
Note that the Son is "appointed heir of all things," which agrees with Paul's use of firstborn in Col 1:15, as does the rest of the verse.
6 And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship him." (ESV)
Strange, isn't it, that throughout the Bible we are told to worship God alone, that worship of anyone or anything else is idolatry, yet here the Father is telling the angels to worship the Son?
8 But of the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions." (ESV)
We have the Father referring to an OT passage (Ps. 45:7-8), calling the Son, God.
10 And, "You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands;
11 they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment,
12 like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end." (ESV)
Perhaps even more explicit, is the Father here using another OT passage attributed to Yahweh (Ps. 102:25-27), in reference to the Son, effectively calling him YHWH and stating he is the Creator.
So it seems that when context is taken into consideration, we can clearly see that the writers of the NT thought that Jesus was God just as the Father is God. What we are left with, with these passages, is that at a minimum, God is a "binity." One simply cannot just keep repeating that the Son is the firstborn, as though that suggests he didn't at one time exist and that settles the matter. The contexts clearly show that firstborn, when used of the Son, means something quite different.
I find it sad that your stance will never change, given the abundance of evidence against your position, your taking "firstborn" out of context, and the contradictory nature of your arguments. All of that points to you needing to change your stance.
I don't disagree that Jesus is the exact image of the wisdom and power of God. He is "called" God. I disagree on the "how" since Jesus is not the Father and there is only one God. The one Jesus calls His God and the One true God. Its clear to me He has always been the Son. And calling Jesus firstborn is exactly what the means to me. Don't tell me its not found in scripture. It is.
You want more
Zech 12:10
...as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn.
Jesus clearly taught the Christ was not the Son of David.
"What do you think about the Messiah? Whose son is he?" "The son of David," they replied.
He said to them, “How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him ‘Lord’? For he says,
44“ ‘The Lord said to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand
until I put your enemies
under your feet.” ’e
45If then David calls him ‘Lord,’ how can he be his son?” 46No one could say a word in reply, and from that day on no one dared to ask him any more questions.
Yet God promised David on oath His line would continue "forever" -no end
Once for all, I have sworn by my holiness—
and I will not lie to David—
36that his line will continue forever
and his throne endure before me like the sun;
37it will be established forever like the moon,
the faithful witness in the sky.”
Jesus is the greatest of kings not David who calls Jesus Lord and Jesus is the Christ
God is appointing "His Firstborn" to the line of David to fulfill His promise to David. And Jesus has no end. I suggest to you its not "make him" but "appoint Him".
Psalm 89:27
I also will make him my firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth.
"Gods" testimony about who Jesus is to Him.
And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."