Who, or What, are the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11?

[Alfred Persson]

Mat_17:9 Now as they came down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, "Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man is risen from the dead."

The three tents are in reference to the three branches of the dual covenant Church. It appears that the suggestion for a tent for the Prophet Elijah represented the coming Mosque of the Prophet Mohammad.

While it is uncomfortable for each of the three monotheistic semitic (Shem) religions to allow for each other, it is the Biblical plan, dispute it if you will. Continued reformation and restoration is necessary for all three branches. We are all servants of the Lord, if we are truly following God. It has always been the policy of the world to try to divide and conquer, and division is first attempted by attempting to control the rhetorical spin.

Be blessed, be well.

Incorrect.

Jesus is coming, not to correct the people of the book, but to reward them.

But be of good cheer, after Muslims repent they will worship the God of Israel, alongside all the other nations:

23 In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians shall serve with the Assyrians.
24 In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land:
25 Whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance. (Isa. 19:23-25 KJV)

 

[Terraphim]

There are several passages of Isaiah which are relevant to Islam.

The last battle will also be against the false prophet.
Rev 19:20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.

For some reason, my profile banner file (click on avatar picture) has been a broken file download from dropbox. I repaired the .png so that it reads properly, as follows.

Proton Drive

Securely store, share, and access your important files and photos. Anytime, anywhere.

drive.proton.me

Be blessed, be well.

 

[Alfred Persson]

There are several passages of Isaiah which are relevant to Islam.

The last battle will also be against the false prophet.
Rev 19:20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.

For some reason, my profile banner file (click on avatar picture) has been a broken file download from dropbox. I repaired the .png so that it reads properly, as follows.

Proton Drive

Securely store, share, and access your important files and photos. Anytime, anywhere.

drive.proton.me

Be blessed, be well.

Yes, they do but it is deceptive not to explain to Christians, that Muslims believe Christ will return to defeat the Beast, whom you call Al-Masih ad-Dajjal, but he will also command all to embrace Islam. Not the God of Israel.

There are forums where Muslims and Christians debate. I don't believe this is one of them. While I know Christian doctrine very well, don't have much understanding of Islam. Never interested me.

Islam strikes me as just like every other "works based religion" the "heart of man" has devised.

Muslims try to earn their way into paradise. What folly. As if the Perfect Holy God would ever find the acts of man sufficient to cover his sin.

14 "What is man, that he could be pure? And he who is born of a woman, that he could be righteous?
15 If God puts no trust in His saints, And the heavens are not pure in His sight,
16 How much less man, who is abominable and filthy, Who drinks iniquity like water! (Job 15:14-16 NKJ)


Muslims pray 5 times a day. 55 times a day is not enough, neither is 5 trillion times a day.

 

[Alfred Persson]

There are several passages of Isaiah which are relevant to Islam.

The last battle will also be against the false prophet.
Rev 19:20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.

For some reason, my profile banner file (click on avatar picture) has been a broken file download from dropbox. I repaired the .png so that it reads properly, as follows.

Proton Drive

Securely store, share, and access your important files and photos. Anytime, anywhere.

drive.proton.me

Be blessed, be well.

14 "What is man, that he could be pure? And he who is born of a woman, that he could be righteous?
15 If God puts no trust in His saints, And the heavens are not pure in His sight,
16 How much less man, who is abominable and filthy, Who drinks iniquity like water! (Job 15:14-16 NKJ)

As a faithful Muslim are you confident you will enter the place of the blessed upon physical death? Have you done enough to cover your sin?

 

[Terraphim]

I'm not Islamic, and I don't profess to know enough about Islam to say much about it, except what I believe from the Christian scripture, once I moved beyond the divide and conquer rhetoric that my earlier Christian experience taught me.

I'm really not interested in being contentious.

Be blessed, be well.

 

[Alfred Persson]

I'm not Islamic, and I don't profess to know enough about Islam to say much about it, except what I believe from the Christian scripture, once I moved beyond the divide and conquer rhetoric that my earlier Christian experience taught me.

I'm really not interested in being contentious.

Be blessed, be well.

Not contentious. The unique message of Christ is He is the Only way to salvation, not our works. As God in human flesh, by His stripes we are healed from death, forgiven our sin. He paid for our sin so we can live. All we need do is embrace Jesus, His truth, His Lordship over us. Only Christianity has this good news.

1 "Come, all you who are thirsty, come to the waters; and you who have no money, come, buy and eat! Come, buy wine and milk without money and without cost.
2 Why spend money on what is not bread, and your labor on what does not satisfy? Listen, listen to me, and eat what is good, and you will delight in the richest of fare.
3 Give ear and come to me; listen, that you may live. I will make an everlasting covenant with you, my faithful love promised to David....

6 Seek the LORD while he may be found; call on him while he is near.
7 Let the wicked forsake their ways and the unrighteous their thoughts. Let them turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on them, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.
8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD. (Isa. 55:1-8 NIV)


16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
17 "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 "And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 "For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
21 "But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God." (Jn. 3:16-21 NKJ)



29 "Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
30 "For My yoke is easy and My burden is light." (Matt. 11:29-12:1 NKJ)

Millions of people throughout history report a unique thing happens when they cry out to God begging His forgiveness, confessing they accept Jesus as LORD publicly. They are "born again", born by God's Holy Spirit, born of heaven above, and the peace that passes all understanding, because they are reconciled with God, comforts them always:

36 "Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah."
37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?"
38 Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off-- for all whom the Lord our God will call."
40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation." (Acts 2:36-40 NIV)

 

[Terraphim]

Not contentious.

Well. Enthusiastic, then. En-theos-iastic, to be clear.
Tit_3:9 But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless.

However;
Jud_1:3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.

confessing they accept Jesus as LORD publicly. They are "born again", born by God's Holy Spirit

Yes, this is standard, though not entire. That is actually when the process of the second birth begins, like unto conception. The reason for that is found by a careful reading of:
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
Joh 3:8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."
From this passage we find that the second birth is complete when one is able to spiritually discern things as a result of having developed eyes to see and ears to hear, in the juxtaposed heavens of the kingdom of God. This happens in the fourth tertiary heaven, that is, in the third (tertiary) heaven (which is spiritual, and is a heaven of heavens) on the fourth level. At the beginning of the fourth Day, in the fourth tertiary heaven, as one of the Accepted generation, is when and where the second birth is completed, as that is when and where the concurrent resurrection of the spirit body occurs. One thereby sees and hears in the kingdom of God; and also enters it, in the sense that the development of the spirit body during the preceding 3 Days is brought to completion in the resurrection thereof. As with the birth of a physical child, a semi-autonomous being begins at that point in time, and enters the world, though it was already in the world since conception.

the peace that passes all understanding

There is no spiritual salvation without faith in the God of the Bible. By faith in God one is spiritually saved, whether as a Jew (Yahveh/Jehovah), as a Christian (Yeshua/Jesus), or as an Islamic (Allah, The God/the Spirit of God, the Power). By works alone, nobody is saved. However, though the Two Witnesses are saved by faith, they are also bound by the righteous requirements of the law, Rom.2:26/ Rom.8:4, of the moral part of the law of God. That is because it is necessary to abide within the measure of grace, whether it's suplicative grace, 1Ki.8:46,52/ Isa.45:14,15, or imputed grace, Rom.4:24, that is by the Savior, whether unknown or known.

The First Witness, of the first blood covenant, are Jews (Isaac) and Islamics (Ishmael) by the blood of circumcision (no FGM), and they have the necessary works of a confession of true faith and circumcision for basic salvation, and they have the necessary work of suplication, for the forgiveness of sin unto abiding Life. The Second Witness, of the second blood covenant, are Christian by the blood of Jesus Christ, and we have the necessary work of a confession of true faith for basic salvation, and we have the necessary first-works of baptism and communion, for the forgiveness of sin unto abiding Life.

Php_4:7 and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
and KJV;
Php_4:7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

Peace like a river.

It Is Well With My Soul

Be blessed, be well.

 

[Terraphim]

That was a youtube link, above, and it's worth repeating.

Be blessed, be well.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Well. Enthusiastic, then. En-theos-iastic, to be clear.
Tit_3:9 But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless.

However;
Jud_1:3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.


Yes, this is standard, though not entire. That is actually when the process of the second birth begins, like unto conception. The reason for that is found by a careful reading of:
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
Joh 3:8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."
From this passage we find that the second birth is complete when one is able to spiritually discern things as a result of having developed eyes to see and ears to hear, in the juxtaposed heavens of the kingdom of God. This happens in the fourth tertiary heaven, that is, in the third (tertiary) heaven (which is spiritual, and is a heaven of heavens) on the fourth level. At the beginning of the fourth Day, in the fourth tertiary heaven, as one of the Accepted generation, is when and where the second birth is completed, as that is when and where the concurrent resurrection of the spirit body occurs. One thereby sees and hears in the kingdom of God; and also enters it, in the sense that the development of the spirit body during the preceding 3 Days is brought to completion in the resurrection thereof. As with the birth of a physical child, a semi-autonomous being begins at that point in time, and enters the world, though it was already in the world since conception.


There is no spiritual salvation without faith in the God of the Bible. By faith in God one is spiritually saved, whether as a Jew (Yahveh/Jehovah), as a Christian (Yeshua/Jesus), or as an Islamic (Allah, The God/the Spirit of God, the Power). By works alone, nobody is saved. However, though the Two Witnesses are saved by faith, they are also bound by the righteous requirements of the law, Rom.2:26/ Rom.8:4, of the moral part of the law of God. That is because it is necessary to abide within the measure of grace, whether it's suplicative grace, 1Ki.8:46,52/ Isa.45:14,15, or imputed grace, Rom.4:24, that is by the Savior, whether unknown or known.

The First Witness, of the first blood covenant, are Jews (Isaac) and Islamics (Ishmael) by the blood of circumcision (no FGM), and they have the necessary works of a confession of true faith and circumcision for basic salvation, and they have the necessary work of suplication, for the forgiveness of sin unto abiding Life. The Second Witness, of the second blood covenant, are Christian by the blood of Jesus Christ, and we have the necessary work of a confession of true faith for basic salvation, and we have the necessary first-works of baptism and communion, for the forgiveness of sin unto abiding Life.

Php_4:7 and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
and KJV;
Php_4:7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

Peace like a river.

It Is Well With My Soul

Be blessed, be well.

On the Day of Pentecost these 3,000 received the gift of the Holy Spirit, and were born again.

The "outward physical evidence" of the Holy Spirit was the change from being "cut to the heart" to gladness when they believed publicly in Christ. Then the Word of God became joy to them, they continued steadfast in the apostles doctrine, and prayer. They manifested they were Christ's disciples, by the love they showed each other, sharing their wealth and breaking bread:


36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."
37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"
38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 "For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."
40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation."
41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.
42 And they continued steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers. (Acts 2:36-42 NKJ)


This "born again experience" is the same today. People are changed, God becomes their heavenly Father, their Abba, and KNOW they are the children of God.

This happens ONLY when Jesus Christ is publicly confessed to be the Christ and the Son of the Living God.

Then divine peace floods the soul.

I recall when I was baptized in the Spirit, I kept repeating "thank you Jesus"....and haven't stopped over 40 years now.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Who, or What, are the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11?

Dropbox

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In the above document, I am taking the position that the two witnesses are two groups of people who exist during the Times of the Gentiles. Their testimony bears witness to God according to two different methods of salvation, and according to two different manifestations. The two covenant methods of salvation are according to Law, and according to Grace. The two different personal manifestations are according to a veiled persona of Jesus Christ in Glory, and according to an unveiled persona of Jesus Christ in Glory. This perspective is an effort towards eliminating the false doctrine of replacement theology, and towards an integration of Godly community.

The two witnesses are God's two lampstands, a lampstand symbolizes a church in Revelation, therefore you're right, they are two groups of believers, likely Jewish and gentile. Also, in Zechariah there's vision of two olive trees dripping oil into one lampstand, representing high priest Joshua and king Zerubabel, and these two witnesses are also two two olive trees, so they're also two leaders of these two groups.

 

[Terraphim]

I recall when I was baptized in the Spirit, I kept repeating "thank you Jesus"....and haven't stopped over 40 years now.

Thank you Jesus. Hallelujah! Amen.

Whether one believes the second birth/harvest to be at the moment of belief/confession, or at the time of the personal concurrent resurrection of the spirit body, the Lord's works are immensely wonderful.

The two witnesses are God's two lampstands, a lampstand symbolizes a church in Revelation, therefore you're right, they are two groups of believers, likely Jewish and gentile. Also, in Zechariah there's vision of two olive trees dripping oil into one lampstand, representing high priest Joshua and king Zerubabel, and these two witnesses are also two two olive trees, so they're also two leaders of these two groups.

Wow. I'm going to have to think about this. I was just thinking along the lines of the heads of the Two Witnesses, but I wasn't coming up with anything. I'm working on the tail end of the thread, however, and you would have to go through a lot of material to get here. Some of the replies that I have received have not been very easy to wade through, and my own material is not always written as well as it might have been. I'm still working on that, and I have some improvements, after letting this post lapse for several years. It has become more relevant lately, however, given current events. Thanks.

So, I have worked on the terminology of the four Spiritual Generations of the regeneration of the spirit body (the second birth), and I changed the first generation from;
1) the Faithful Generation, to
1) the Righteous Generation
2) the Called Generation
3) the Chosen Generation
4) the Accepted Generation

I have also improved the terminology of the "wells of salvation", Isa.12:3,
that's Incremental Salvation;
1) the Salvation of Freedom (from sin and death)
2) the Salvation of Rest (from God's wrath)
3) the Salvation of the Soul (by the Manifestation of Jesus)
4) the Salvation of the Rock (the Rock of my salvation, the white stone)

I have also defined the Days of the Regeneration;
1) The Day of Salvation
2) The Day of Redemption (the back of the Father, revealed by Jesus, Mat.11:27)
3) The Day of the Lord (the Manifestation)
4) The Day of Acceptance (the acceptable day of the Lord)

I have also ordered the Spiritual Estates;
1) sanctification, Act.26:18 (imputed righteousness)
2) justification, Rom. 5:9/3:24 (forensic justification was viewed as being an immediate result of imputed righteousness)
3) glorification, Joh.17:10/ Rom.8:17/8:30
4) exaltation, Mat.23:12/ 1Pe.5:6

Be blessed, be well.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Wow. I'm going to have to think about this. I was just thinking along the lines of the heads of the Two Witnesses, but I wasn't coming up with anything. I'm working on the tail end of the thread, however, and you would have to go through a lot of material to get here. Some of the replies that I have received have not been very easy to wade through, and my own material is not always written as well as it might have been. I'm still working on that, and I have some improvements, after letting this post lapse for several years. It has become more relevant lately, however, given current events. Thanks.

It's not that complicated, the two witnesses are required in compliance with the biblical rule of two witnesses. This is common sense, just think about it, if you make a big claim, you need evidence from an independent source to back it up. The bible is very consistent on this.

One witness shall not rise against a man concerning any iniquity or any sin that he commits; by the mouth of two or three witnesses the matter shall be established. (Deut. 19:15)
If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. (Matt. 18:16)
This will be the third time I am coming to you. “By the mouth of two or three witnesses every word shall be established.” (2 Cor. 13:1)
Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. (Heb. 10:28)
I will give power to my two witnesses. (Rev. 11:3)

Historically, ancient Israel split into two kingdoms - the house of Israel and the house of Judah. Israel was lost and assimilated into the gentiles, hence the mystery "the ten lost tribes"; Judah was the Jews and Jewish converts, their kingdom remained until 70AD. So it's reasonable to believe that these two witnesses represent the Gentile and the Jewish churches.

Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah ... (Jer. 31:31)

 

[Terraphim]

The two witnesses are God's two lampstands, a lampstand symbolizes a church in Revelation, therefore you're right, they are two groups of believers, likely Jewish and gentile. Also, in Zechariah there's vision of two olive trees dripping oil into one lampstand, representing high priest Joshua and king Zerubabel, and these two witnesses are also two two olive trees, so they're also two leaders of these two groups.

Sentence #1 is spot on. Further, the Two Witnesses ascend into heaven, and no physical person can do that, except Jesus, the Word made flesh, Joh.3:13. However, Jesus cannot be one of the Two Witnesses, because He was on earth previous to the emergence of the 1st Beast, which ascends out of the bottomless pit to make war on, overcome, and kill the Two Witnesses. Jesus lived during the time of the 4th OT Beast, that is Rome.

So, it is a spiritual ascension, which is what occurs during the General Resurrection, 1Co.15:42,44, which is concurrent, that is, it has been ongoing;
1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—
1Co 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP IN VICTORY."
#1) The physical flesh is "corruption", and cannot put on "incorruption", or "immortality".
#2) The "corruptible" is therefore not the physical body, which means that it is the soul.
#3) So, this corruptible soul must put on incorruption, and this mortal soul must put on immortality.
#4) The victory over death is a result of the concurrent resurrection of the spirit body within the physical bodies.
This process occured even during OT times, when it was spoken of by the more general term, the return.
Job22:23-30/ Psa.90:3,4/ Psa.116:7-9/ Son.6:13(4 returns, 4 Days, beloved)/ Isa.6:10/21:12(Directs Islam to return)

Why you think the two heads of the Two Witnesses are Joshua and Zerubabel?

Be blessed, be well.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Why you think the two heads of the Two Witnesses are Joshua and Zerubabel?

It's written in Zech. 4. Zerubbabel is most definitely mentioned in there, no Joshua, but these two are definitely two anointed and appointed individuals, though.

Then I answered and said to him, “What are these two olive trees—at the right of the lampstand and at its left?” And I further answered and said to him, “What are these two olive branches that drip into the receptacles of the two gold pipes from which the golden oil drains?”Then he answered me and said, “Do you not know what these are?” And I said, “No, my lord.” So he said, “These are the two anointed ones, who stand beside the Lord of the whole earth.” (Zech. 4:11-15)

 

[Terraphim]

Yes, I see your point now about the house of Israel and the house of Judah, translating to Jew and Gentile, as the Two Witnesses. I hadn't looked at it historically. Nicely done, clearly thought out, and well written.

Lately I've begun to look at it from a covenant standpoint, however, which is more in line with being a witness.

As for the heads being Zerubbabel and Joshua, I'm going to say no, because in Zec.4, Zerubabbel is a name that is used in a prophetic fashion for Jesus, which was also done for a few other names, as well.

Zec 4:6 So he answered and said to me: "This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel: 'Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,' Says the LORD of hosts.
Salvation is not by military might, nor by political power, but by receiving the Holy Spirit by grace through faith.

Zec 4:7 'Who are you, O great mountain? Before Zerubbabel you shall become a plain! And he shall bring forth the capstone With shouts of "Grace, grace to it!" ' "
John the baptist said;
Luk 3:4 as it is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet, saying: "THE VOICE OF ONE CRYING IN THE WILDERNESS: 'PREPARE THE WAY OF THE LORD; MAKE HIS PATHS STRAIGHT.
Luk 3:5 EVERY VALLEY SHALL BE FILLED AND EVERY MOUNTAIN AND HILL BROUGHT LOW; THE CROOKED PLACES SHALL BE MADE STRAIGHT AND THE ROUGH WAYS SMOOTH;
Luk 3:6 AND ALL FLESH SHALL SEE THE SALVATION OF GOD.' "
and Jesus proved the two graces for the two covenants, imputed grace and suplicative grace,
when He brought forth the capstone from His tomb, for the second covenant;
and for the first covenant,
Jos 5:9 Then the LORD said to Joshua, "This day I have rolled away the reproach of Egypt from you." Therefore the name of the place is called Gilgal to this day.

Zec 4:8 Moreover the word of the LORD came to me, saying:
Zec 4:9 "The hands of Zerubbabel Have laid the foundation of this temple; His hands shall also finish it. Then you will know That the LORD of hosts has sent Me to you.
For;
Rev 1:8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End," says the Lord, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."

Zec 4:10 For who has despised the day of small things? For these seven rejoice to see The plumb line in the hand of Zerubbabel. They are the eyes of the LORD, Which scan to and fro throughout the whole earth."
For;
Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands which you saw are the seven churches.
Pro 8:30 Then I was beside Him as a master craftsman; And I was daily His delight, Rejoicing always before Him,
Rev_5:6 And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth.

Zec 4:14 So he said, "These are the two anointed ones, who stand beside the Lord of the whole earth."

In other words, the seven churches of Revelation are the seven spiritual generations which occupy the seven juxtaposed heavens. That is, the members (Two Witnesses) of the two covenants (two anointed ones) who are on earth, simultaneously exist spiritually in the juxtaposed heavens, according to each believer's generation.

As for the heads of the Two Witnesses;
The First Witness is of the covenant of the blood of circumcision, of Jews and Islamics, which are of the half-brothers Isaac and Ishmael, and their common father is Abraham;
Luk 16:23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
The Second Witness is of the covenant of the blood of Jesus Christ, and Jesus gave Peter the keys of the kingdom;
Mat 16:15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"
Mat 16:16 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
Mat 16:17 Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
Mat 16:18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.
Mat 16:19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

Abraham and Peter may have transmigrated into the present time of the Beast of Revelation, so they may be the literal prophets of the Two Witnesses, but the term "two prophets" in Rev.11 probably means two groups of prophets, of the two covenants.

However, the rich man who was in torment in Hades in the Parable would have been transmigrated, and would have been in a living hell, as hell is also juxtaposed.

On the other hand, Jesus loved Lazarus, for whom He wept, and resurrected, on the fourth day.

Be blessed, be well.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Yes, I see your point now about the house of Israel and the house of Judah, translating to Jew and Gentile, as the Two Witnesses. I hadn't looked at it historically. Nicely done, clearly thought out, and well written.

Lately I've begun to look at it from a covenant standpoint, however, which is more in line with being a witness.

As for the heads being Zerubbabel and Joshua, I'm going to say no, because in Zec.4, Zerubabbel is a name that is used in a prophetic fashion for Jesus, which was also done for a few other names, as well.

The two olive trees were Zerubbabel and Joshua at the time when this prophecy was given to Zechariah, Zerubabbel was the prince, Joshua was the priest, but of course it can't be those two forever. Since you call them "heads of the two witnesses", those are two offices filled by two certain individuals, it's like the difference between "president" and "presidency".

Also, the name "Zerubbabel" means "out of Babylon", and "Joshua" means "God saves", very fitting for the historical context of Israel's return from exile. And long before that, if you think about it, Moses and Aaron were God's two witnesses, they were the prince and the priest, chosen by God to deliver Israel from Egypt. The future two witnesses will play the same roles, they will lead God's people out of Babylon the Great and baptize them with God's Holy Spirit. "Come out of her, my people!"

 

[Terraphim]

The two olive trees were Zerubbabel and Joshua at the time when this prophecy was given to Zechariah, Zerubabbel was the prince, Joshua was the priest, but of course it can't be those two forever. Since you call them "heads of the two witnesses", those are two offices filled by two certain individuals, it's like the difference between "president" and "presidency".

Also, the name "Zerubbabel" means "out of Babylon", and "Joshua" means "God saves", very fitting for the historical context of Israel's return from exile. And long before that, if you think about it, Moses and Aaron were God's two witnesses, they were the prince and the priest, chosen by God to deliver Israel from Egypt. The future two witnesses will play the same roles, they will lead God's people out of Babylon the Great and baptize them with God's Holy Spirit. "Come out of her, my people!"

You really have a talent for this. I would agree that the office of the Two Witnesses is not permanently occupied, but it is near to being the highest office of the Holy Spirit, which would make the turnover rate to be very slow. The only higher office for created sons would be that of the covering angel Gabriel, who stands in the Presence(s) of God, Luk.1:19, in the highest office of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the extension of the Power into creation, and so we worship the Godhead, not creation.

Of course, it is therefore somewhat speculative to try to assign people to the offices, but it may be that Peter is actually assigned to a much lower office, in keeping with Rev.21:14, such that Peter is at the pearly gates of the first heaven, and further, he is a judge of his integrated tribe, Eph.2:12/ Mat.19:28 (Christians are of the judicial branch, though we are not given to judge according to the flesh, Mat.7:1,2, at least not as neophytes).

As it appears that Peter is occupied elsewhere, a different candidate is needed for the head Witness of the second covenant. A Gentile contemporary of Abraham was Melchizedek, who was the king of Salem (peace), and the priest of the God most high, who referred to Abraham as "Abram of God most high", Gen.14:18,19. An office at that height would tend to explain the extraordinary aspects of Melchizedek's existence, Heb.7:3. It would seem, therefore, that Abraham and Melchizedek are the most likely occupants of the offices of the Two Witnesses.

Below the Godhead is the Covering Angel, which together is YHHW, according to linear descent, though it is normally YHWH according to Gilgal, the rolling of the circular capstone of the empty tomb. Below the Covering Angel are the Two Witnesses, and then there are the Archangels of the peoples, according to their number, Joh.21:9,11, that is 154. This is substantiated by the construct of the bronze sea, as there were 150 dyads of oxen around the sea, plus the 4 triads that supported the sea, 2Ch.4:2-4, which again equals 154.

Be blessed, be well.

 

[Terraphim]

Carry_Your_Name

Did @ your name, above. I failed to insert a reply a few posts back, so it didn't alert you then.

I've had a further thought about the Messianic interpretation of Zec.4:6-10.
Zec 4:10 For who has despised the day of small things?

I'm thinking that "the day of small things" refers to the shortening of Days, Mar.13:20/ 2Pet.3:12, which is the advanced placement of a believer to the next Day. A Day is a period of spiritual development, and so, advanced placement would generally not be despised.

The Mark quote is usually viewed as being end-time, but the Great Tribulation is actually the same as the Times of the Gentiles, which is the Diaspora, Mat.24:21/ Luk.21:24.

However, Mar.13:20 may refer to intercession, like Allen Turing's code machine, by which WW2 was won.

2Pe 3:11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells

Hastening the Day of God by holy conduct is pretty conclusive, however. Further, the development of the atomic bomb depended upon the science of western civilization, which would not have happened without Christianity. That is, "because of which [holy hastening/civilization/science/bomb] the heavens will be dissolved". The modern era of Anno Domini, The Year of the Lord's Dominion, is the AD era of the new heavens and new earth. Before long, in this AD era, the Lord will come again, and righteousness will dwell on Earth.

Here's another update to my statement of faith, 4th edition, for general distribution from the link below.

Terraphim, Statement of Faith, 4th Edition.

Be blessed, be well.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

The Mark quote is usually viewed as being end-time, but the Great Tribulation is actually the same as the Times of the Gentiles, which is the Diaspora, Mat.24:21/ Luk.21:24.

I don't think so. Times of the Gentiles is the long church age from Pentecost in Acts 2 to the second coming of the Lord. During this time, Gentiles reign over Jews, the goespel is preached to all Gentile nations, and the Great Tribulation is the last three and half years, that's when the Jew will finally accept Christ, hence Jesus's lamentation over Jerusalem - O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! "See! Your house is left to you desolate; for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!" (Matt. 23:37-39) This is a prophecy of the "abomination of desolation" and the spiritual blindness of the Jewish people.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

@Carry_Your_Name

Did @ your name, above. I failed to insert a reply a few posts back, so it didn't alert you then.

I've had a further thought about the Messianic interpretation of Zec.4:6-10.
Zec 4:10 For who has despised the day of small things?

I'm thinking that "the day of small things" refers to the shortening of Days, Mar.13:20/ 2Pet.3:12, which is the advanced placement of a believer to the next Day. A Day is a period of spiritual development, and so, advanced placement would generally not be despised.

As for Zech. 4:10, though, I think you've gone too far. Zerubbabel might have been a type that alludes to Jesus, but in this context, this is just a message to Zechariah about the restoration of the temple and a reprise of the Exodus.