Who, or What, are the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11?

[hawkman]

The two witnesses are Moses and Elijah

Could be .

 

[Free]

You like to say that context is king. Here we have context which is all in one paragraph, in which according to you the Lord switches meaning mid-paragraph from the spiritualty dead to the physically dead. Such a confusing segue would be an indication of a fickle-minded capricious God. Do you really wish to stand in the gap and hold the universe together for that split second?

Why would it be confusing, as the two are related? Jesus first talks about those who are alive and hear is his word. Such people do not come under judgement, but have eternal life. The language of John 5:28-29 is clearly speaking of the dead who are literally in tombs and will "hear his voice" come out to either "the resurrection of life" or "the resurrection of judgement." This is exactly what the end of Rev 20 talks about. But, notice again the use of "judgement."

What you said is this;

The replacement of Judaism with Christianity would mean that there is only one method of salvation for all people, which is what you seem to be saying. What I am saying is that both Jews and Christians are saved, and they are saved in a similar manner, but with some differences. Your above statement, as literally written, is true only for Christians,

My statement applies to all people, including Jews, but that isn't replacement theology, which states that the church has replaced Israel and promises made to Israel apply to the church. Jews still have to believe in salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

Look at what Peter tells those Jews "from every nation under heaven" that heard the disciples speaking in tongues at Pentecost:

Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.’ (ESV)

Note also that Paul quotes the Joel 2:32 in Romans 10:13.

Act 2:38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (ESV)

That is the same for all believers, Jew or Gentile.

but it is also true for Jews, if I expand on it in this way; Salvation is by supplicative or imputed grace alone, through faith in Jehovah or Jesus alone, in Christ veiled or manifest alone. This is one of the main points that I am trying to make in this discussion.

I have no idea what you're saying here.

Though I have read some books in this area, I would do well to read some more.

From the Christian perspective, there is no salvation in Islam as they follow a false god.

The general resurrection is a step beyond the main area of interest here, which is the Manifestation, as that is the event which makes for the two witnesses of the Lord; whether He appears to a believer manifestly or veiled.
Every branch is heretical from the perspective of another branch, especially when a new branch emerges. Jesus was martyred as a heretic, and a true servant is not above his master, for what people have said of Him, people will say of His servants as well. You do not understand my perspective very well, true, because I have understood your perspective and moved beyond it, as it was necessary to include all of scripture in a comprehensive interpretation.

You include ideas that are absolutely not in Scripture, that is the main problem. Another is the language you use, the terms and phrases, that make your position difficult to follow. Being "comprehensive" doesn't really mean much, since one can be comprehensive and come out with a wrong understanding, having made connections in Scripture where there are none.

One can choose to believe in the Lord, or to believe in religion.

This is a false dichotomy.

Religion, like with the circumcision party, may be a necessary tutor for a while, but one must eventually begin to walk. That means that one must make their own decisions on the way.

Several times warnings are given in the NT to make sure one adheres to "the faith," that is, the one faith with its attendant beliefs, or risk falling away from that faith. We just cannot go about making up our own beliefs as you appear to be doing, by incorporating New Age, neo-Gnostic, and other contradictory religious beliefs.

 

[Randy]

I see the two witnesses as two people born and raised in those days and appointed by God.
I see these signs given as signs that can't be mistaken and if any,(as the whole world looks on), have any shred of faith or love of God in those days they will come to Christ.
I see the signs given as a last warning before the great tribulation and the lies of the beast are allowed into the world. It is the beast who is allowed to overcome and kill the two witnesses after their testimony that God decreed is finished. 1260 days as I read. The beast who will trample the earth and will cause and be the cause of astounding devastation on the earth. The beast who makes war with the saints and is successful until Jesus comes to end tribulation, destroy the beast's armies, (visible and invisible), and pronounce judgment in favor of the saints.
I see those who still don't repent and believe God through these signs given in Rev 11 and take joy in their deaths as those who will fall to the lies of the beast.
These are who Paul testified about long ago:
The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

 

[Terraphim]

Gracethroughfaith said:
The two witnesses are Moses and Elijah

Could be .

Thank you again. Again, please refer to post #14.

Be blessed, be well.

 

[Terraphim]

The only way everyone is saved who will be saved is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

The replacement of Judaism with Christianity would mean that there is only one method of salvation for all people, which is what you seem to be saying. What I am saying is that both Jews and Christians are saved, and they are saved in a similar manner, but with some differences. Your above statement, as literally written, is true only for Christians,

My statement applies to all people, including Jews, but that isn't replacement theology, which states that the church has replaced Israel and promises made to Israel apply to the church. Jews still have to believe in salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

Your original statement applies only to Christians, because Jews have to become Christians to be saved in this manner. I was clearly not speaking ethnically, as I was speaking of salvation, not nationality. Yes, ethnic Jews are saved as Christians, as you have said. However, I am speaking of Jews being saved as Jews, and Islamics being saved as Islamics. If Jews are not still saved as Jews, then the Christian church has replaced the Judaic church, but this is not so. I have quoted several scriptures which are very definitive in this matter.

Next:

The only way everyone is saved who will be saved is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

Your above statement, as literally written, is true only for Christians, but it is also true for Jews, if I expand on it in this way; Salvation is by supplicative or imputed grace alone, through faith in Jehovah or Jesus alone, in Christ veiled or manifest alone. This is one of the main points that I am trying to make in this discussion.

I have no idea what you're saying here.

Your exclusionist statement:
Salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

My non-replacement statement:
Salvation is by supplicative or imputed grace alone, through faith in Jehovah or Jesus alone, in Christ veiled or manifest alone.

Incremental salvation (the "wells of salvation"):
1) Salvation from (the pollutions of [the sins of]) the world.....................................The seal of the Spirit
2) Salvation of the soul............................................................................................................The covering of the Spirit
3) Salvation from God's wrath...............................................................................................The infilling of the Spirit
4) Salvation of the Rock (rock of my salvation, white stone, bride of Christ).....The indwelling of the Spirit

Your statement has three simplex clauses. My statement has three duplex clauses. Being duplex, I am including the salvation of Jews and Islamics, as Jews and Islamics.

In the first two duplex clauses, I am saying that Jews and Islamics, and Christians, all receive the first incremental salvation, the common salvation from the world, in a similar manner. In all three cases, what is necessary is grace through faith. The type of grace differs between the two witnesses, as does the type of faith. The first incremental salvation, the salvation from the world, begins when one receives the vision of the unction. This vision confirms the election of grace, and it is the seal of the Spirit.

The second incremental salvation, the salvation of the soul, begins when one receives the vision of the glory of the Father Jehovah, which is the backside of His countenance. This vision confirms the election of glory, and it is the covering of the Spirit.

The third duplex clause is "in Christ veiled or manifest alone." It expresses how the third incremental salvation, the salvation from God's wrath, is received by the two witnesses. The third salvation begins when one receives the vision of the Manifestation of the countenance of Jesus Christ in glory, which is given either manifestly or veiled in persona. This vision confirms the election of adoption, and it is the infilling of the Spirit.

The fourth incremental salvation, the salvation of the Rock, begins when one receives the vision of the potential beloved. This vision confirms the election of resurrection, and once validated, the subsequent resurrection is the indwelling of the Spirit. In faith, the resurrection of the just is for faithful Jews and faithful Islamics (who therefore have pressing justification, and striving justification), and the resurrection of the unjust (who therefore have forensic, i.e. trying justification) is for Christians. Press, try, strive.

Being "comprehensive" doesn't really mean much, since one can be comprehensive and come out with a wrong understanding, having made connections in Scripture where there are none.

Comprehensive interpretation occurs when all of scripture interprets scripture, according to the witness of the Holy Spirit. This methodology insures that there is a minimal effect from private interpretation.

Several times warnings are given in the NT to make sure one adheres to "the faith," that is, the one faith with its attendant beliefs, or risk falling away from that faith. We just cannot go about making up our own beliefs as you appear to be doing, by incorporating New Age, neo-Gnostic, and other contradictory religious beliefs.

I am not saying that my understanding is preferable for all Christians. There are, however, many Christians which have left the Church as a result of the Church's inability to progress from old doctrinal perspectives which no longer hold up as a result of much scholarly work in many areas. If you are content with the compartmentalized doctrinal contradictions of sound doctrine which resounds in the world, then you will not appreciate my plain doctrine, which has not been drawn from any other source but scripture, regardless of your perspective.

There are many children who are quite content with the mythos of Santa Claus, but who eventually progress as adolescents to belief in the simple perspectives that are taught about the Bible and Jesus. Those who progress further in their understanding of truth can go one of two ways as society people. They either weaken in faith as religionists, or they fall away to a secular mythos, either the myth of science or philosophy. I am presenting an alternate third stage, of a mature, strong faith which adheres to the Spirit of truth. The development of a mature Christianity allows for the retention and return of many people. This is the gospel of reconciliation, not only to God through faith in Jesus Christ, but the reconciliation of the three Semitic faiths, as well as an alignment with several similar perspectives of true science.

Be blessed, be well.

 

[Terraphim]

I see the two witnesses as two people born and raised in those days and appointed by God.

Very straightforward, thank you. It would seem to be the easiest solution, except for this;
Rev 11:12 And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them.

Because of this;
Joh 3:13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

And because of this;
1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

For in fact this is true;
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

What I am showing you is that the two witnesses cannot be simply two flesh and blood people, because they ascended to heaven. In John3:13, Jesus was responding to the question by Nicodemus;
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"
After a few sentences, Jesus got around to answering the question;
Joh 3:13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.
Jesus was saying that a physical body cannot ascend to heaven, except Him, as He was the Word made flesh, that was a Spirit which formed it's own physical form, as He had no physical father or mother for conception. So, He was saying that the physical ascension of normal people does not happen, and so the question was invalid. Further, Jesus confirmed that the juxtaposition of heaven and earth is the correct perspective, as He said that He (the [only begotten] Son of [God in] Man) is in heaven, though He was on earth, as well.

So, the physical ascension of normal people doesn't happen. Consequently, the ascension of the two witnesses is a spiritual ascension. So, the two witnesses have physical bodies which wear humble clothes;
Rev 11:3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth."
Therefore, the two witnesses have spirit bodies which ascend into heaven. In order to be an incarnate soul, and have a spirit body, one must have undergone the general resurrection. So, they are physical people who's souls have received spirit bodies through the concurrent spiritual resurrection.

The question now becomes, how do I know that the two witnesses are two peoples, rather than two individuals?
Rev 11:7 When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them.
The first beast of Revelation makes war upon the two witnesses. In order for war to occur, there must be a multitude, not just two people.

The beast who will trample the earth and will cause and be the cause of astounding devastation on the earth. The beast who makes war with the saints and is successful until Jesus comes to end tribulation, destroy the beast's armies, (visible and invisible), and pronounce judgment in favor of the saints.

Quite right here. Some errors otherwise, but it is a good attempt at understanding. There were four OT beasts, which were empires which over-ruled the Jewish church, and they were identified in Daniel. There are two NT beasts, which are empires which over-rule the holy people in modern times.

The great tribulation is the same as the dispersion during the times of the Gentiles, the Diaspora.
Compare the contexts of;
Mat 24:21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Luk 21:24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Be blessed, be well.

 

[Randy]

Very straightforward, thank you. It would seem to be the easiest solution, except for this;
Rev 11:12 And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them.

Because of this;
Joh 3:13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

And because of this;
1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

For in fact this is true;
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

What I am showing you is that the two witnesses cannot be simply two flesh and blood people, because they ascended to heaven. In John3:13, Jesus was responding to the question by Nicodemus;
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"
After a few sentences, Jesus got around to answering the question;
Joh 3:13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.
Jesus was saying that a physical body cannot ascend to heaven, except Him, as He was the Word made flesh, that was a Spirit which formed it's own physical form, as He had no physical father or mother for conception. So, He was saying that the physical ascension of normal people does not happen, and so the question was invalid. Further, Jesus confirmed that the juxtaposition of heaven and earth is the correct perspective, as He said that He (the [only begotten] Son of [God in] Man) is in heaven, though He was on earth, as well.

So, the physical ascension of normal people doesn't happen. Consequently, the ascension of the two witnesses is a spiritual ascension. So, the two witnesses have physical bodies which wear humble clothes;
Rev 11:3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth."
Therefore, the two witnesses have spirit bodies which ascend into heaven. In order to be an incarnate soul, and have a spirit body, one must have undergone the general resurrection. So, they are physical people who's souls have received spirit bodies through the concurrent spiritual resurrection.

The question now becomes, how do I know that the two witnesses are two peoples, rather than two individuals?
Rev 11:7 When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them.
The first beast of Revelation makes war upon the two witnesses. In order for war to occur, there must be a multitude, not just two people.


Quite right here. Some errors otherwise, but it is a good attempt at understanding. There were four OT beasts, which were empires which over-ruled the Jewish church, and they were identified in Daniel. There are two NT beasts, which are empires which over-rule the holy people in modern times.

The great tribulation is the same as the dispersion during the times of the Gentiles, the Diaspora.
Compare the contexts of;
Mat 24:21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Luk 21:24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Be blessed, be well.

They were killed. Their dead "mortal" bodies layed in the street as they were refused burial. The witness was to the "whole" world as the whole world looked on. God raised them back to life and He did take them up to heaven alive. Again as the "whole" world looked on. This is still a future event and should not be a difficult read for anyone. The beast and the false prophet who serves him are responsible for astonishing devastation on this earth and during that 42 month reign shall be a tribulation so great no one would survive unless God had cut those days short. The beast does not rise by human power nor is he defeated by human power.

No one has seen the Father except the external life who was with the Father in the beginning and came down from heaven. Jesus was/is that witness. The two witnesses didn't come down from heaven and once taken up alive will return at the resurrection in just 42 months at the return of Christ .

 

[Terraphim]

Thank you. You have presented a fairly standard eschatology, which has inherent errors, some of which were designed to subvert the true Church, and to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

God raised them back to life and He did take them up to heaven alive.

I previously proved by scriptural reference that the two witnesses could not have ascended physically.

This is still a future event and should not be a difficult read for anyone.

As with the general concurrent resurrection of the spirit body, the two witnesses have been an ongoing phenomenon throughout history, and continue today. However, a simple reading may suffice for those who wish to interpret scripture in a non-comprehensive manner.

during that 42 month reign shall be a tribulation so great

Again, an examination of the contexts of Mat24:21 and Luk21:24 will show that the great tribulation is the Diaspora during the time of the Gentiles. Further, I have previously disproved the false teaching of a delayed half week of the 70th week of Daniel. The 70 weeks of Daniel concluded at the time of the crucifixion. As for the other references to 42 months and 1260 days in Revelations chapters 11 and 13, this a symbolic prophetic (rhetorical) device which is used to indicate indeterminate periods of time by using instead the approximate length of time for the process of a concurrent resurrection, as indicated by;
Rev 11:11 Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them.

no one would survive unless God had cut those days short

The reign of the three evil powers, the 2 NT beasts and Gog+Magog, will be cut short by the second coming of Jesus, for the sake of the elect.

The beast does not rise by human power nor is he defeated by human power.

The first beast of Revelation is, in fact, a human power, which is under Satanic dominion. It will be defeated, in part by human power, which will be under the dominion of Jesus. First, the three super-powers will be seriously weakened by Armageddon, then they will be defeated by the (not great, but) terrible day of the Lord.

No one has seen the Father

No one has seen the face of the Father and lived, except the Son, Jesus.

The two witnesses didn't come down from heaven

The two witnesses are two peoples, who, as individuals previous to being saved, were condemned to be spiritually broken, and incarnated as naked souls. Concerning life before incarnation;
Rev 2:4 Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love.
Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent.
Jer 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations."

Jeremiah was an example of an "indigo child". This is a popular term for one who is born caulled. The older term hearkens back to a belief that an infant born partly or fully enveloped in the amniotic sack augured well, though it was probably more often the opposite, as cauls are more common for premature births. Further, the word "caulled" sounds like "called", which would be the second generation. The four generations of the regeneration are the faithful, the called, the chosen, and the accepted. One who is born as an "indigo child", is actually a spiritual caulbearer (though not literally), and is a soul who has been transmigrated after the common salvation, or higher.

Be blessed, be well.

 

[Free]

Your original statement applies only to Christians, because Jews have to become Christians to be saved in this manner. I was clearly not speaking ethnically, as I was speaking of salvation, not nationality. Yes, ethnic Jews are saved as Christians, as you have said. However, I am speaking of Jews being saved as Jews, and Islamics being saved as Islamics. If Jews are not still saved as Jews, then the Christian church has replaced the Judaic church, but this is not so.

My original statement applies to every person that has ever lived. There is only one way to salvation, whether Jew or Gentile--salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. This applies to all people of all faiths. There is no salvation in Islam; they are all lost as long as they stay in Islam and do not acknowledge Jesus for who he is and for his finished work on the cross.

I have quoted several scriptures which are very definitive in this matter.

I must have missed all of them somehow. Would you be able to post them again or point me to which post you posted them in?

Your exclusionist statement:
Salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

How is that "exclusionist"? It is available for all people. There is no salvation outside of Christ.

Joh 1:11 He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him.
Joh 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
Joh 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. (ESV)

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’
...
Joh 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. (ESV)

Act 2:36 Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.”
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”
Act 2:38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Act 2:39 For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.” (ESV)

Act 4:12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” (ESV)

Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.
Rom 10:11 For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.”
Rom 10:12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him.
Rom 10:13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” (ESV)

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. (ESV)

There are many more, but the teaching of Jesus, the Apostles, and the NT writers is clear: salvation is only through believing in the Jesus of the Bible and his atoning work.

My non-replacement statement:
Salvation is by supplicative or imputed grace alone, through faith in Jehovah or Jesus alone, in Christ veiled or manifest alone.

Incremental salvation (the "wells of salvation"):
1) Salvation from (the pollutions of [the sins of]) the world.....................................The seal of the Spirit
2) Salvation of the soul............................................................................................................The covering of the Spirit
3) Salvation from God's wrath...............................................................................................The infilling of the Spirit
4) Salvation of the Rock (rock of my salvation, white stone, bride of Christ).....The indwelling of the Spirit

Your statement has three simplex clauses. My statement has three duplex clauses. Being duplex, I am including the salvation of Jews and Islamics, as Jews and Islamics.
In the first two duplex clauses, I am saying that Jews and Islamics, and Christians, all receive the first incremental salvation, the common salvation from the world, in a similar manner. In all three cases, what is necessary is grace through faith. The type of grace differs between the two witnesses, as does the type of faith. The first incremental salvation, the salvation from the world, begins when one receives the vision of the unction. This vision confirms the election of grace, and it is the seal of the Spirit.

The second incremental salvation, the salvation of the soul, begins when one receives the vision of the glory of the Father Jehovah, which is the backside of His countenance. This vision confirms the election of glory, and it is the covering of the Spirit.

The third duplex clause is "in Christ veiled or manifest alone." It expresses how the third incremental salvation, the salvation from God's wrath, is received by the two witnesses. The third salvation begins when one receives the vision of the Manifestation of the countenance of Jesus Christ in glory, which is given either manifestly or veiled in persona. This vision confirms the election of adoption, and it is the infilling of the Spirit.

The fourth incremental salvation, the salvation of the Rock, begins when one receives the vision of the potential beloved. This vision confirms the election of resurrection, and once validated, the subsequent resurrection is the indwelling of the Spirit. In faith, the resurrection of the just is for faithful Jews and faithful Islamics (who therefore have pressing justification, and striving justification), and the resurrection of the unjust (who therefore have forensic, i.e. trying justification) is for Christians. Press, try, strive.

Which is error on your part. You are twisting the Bible through misapplication to fit what you would prefer to be the case. There is justification (past), sanctification (past/present, depending on context), and glorification (future). Justification is the start and it occurs only through faith alone, by grace alone, in Christ alone, and is the only way for anyone and everyone to be saved.

Comprehensive interpretation occurs when all of scripture interprets scripture, according to the witness of the Holy Spirit. This methodology insures that there is a minimal effect from private interpretation.

Not really. Minimal effect from private interpretation only occurs when one takes into account all of the church voices over the centuries. Doing it on one's own pretty much ensures private interpretation.

I am not saying that my understanding is preferable for all Christians.

It shouldn't be preferable for any Christian. You are adding to Scripture which is a grave error.

There are, however, many Christians which have left the Church as a result of the Church's inability to progress from old doctrinal perspectives which no longer hold up as a result of much scholarly work in many areas.

Which areas and what scholarly work?

If you are content with the compartmentalized doctrinal contradictions of sound doctrine which resounds in the world, then you will not appreciate my plain doctrine, which has not been drawn from any other source but scripture, regardless of your perspective.

Your doctrine is far from plain, and while some of it has come from Scripture, which doesn't even mean your understanding is actually biblical, some of it clearly doesn't at all come from Scripture.

I am presenting an alternate third stage, of a mature, strong faith which adheres to the Spirit of truth.

But you have presented untruths, such as transmigration and the belief that Jews and Muslims can/will be saved apart from faith in Christ.

 

[hawkman]

Yes, ethnic Jews are saved as Christians, as you have said. However, I am speaking of Jews being saved as Jews, and Islamics being saved as Islamics. If Jews are not still saved as Jews, then the Christian church has replaced the Judaic church, but this is not so. I have quoted several scriptures which are very definitive in this matter.

Explain what you are saying in the bold above .

Or explain here maybe .

 

[Terraphim]

There is only one way to salvation, whether Jew or Gentile--salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

Terraphim said:
I have quoted several scriptures which are very definitive in this matter.

I must have missed all of them somehow. Would you be able to post them again or point me to which post you posted them in?

I don't know exactly where I posted them, but this is the trend, with some additional material.

From Revelation chapter 11:

Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth.

This term directs us to:

Isa 54:5 For your Maker is your husband, The LORD of hosts is His name; And your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel; He is called the God of the whole earth.
Isa 54:6 For the LORD has called you Like a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, Like a youthful wife when you were refused," Says your God.
Isa 54:7 "For a mere moment I have forsaken you, But with great mercies I will gather you.
Isa 54:8 With a little wrath I hid My face from you for a moment; But with everlasting kindness I will have mercy on you," Says the LORD, your Redeemer.
Isa 54:9 "For this is like the waters of Noah to Me; For as I have sworn That the waters of Noah would no longer cover the earth, So have I sworn That I would not be angry with you, nor rebuke you.
Isa 54:10 For the mountains shall depart And the hills be removed, But My kindness shall not depart from you, Nor shall My covenant of peace be removed," Says the LORD, who has mercy on you.

The above salvation, by the redemptive covenant of peace, was first to the Jew:

Num 25:10 Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying:
Num 25:11 "Phinehas the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, has turned back My wrath from the children of Israel, because he was zealous with My zeal among them, so that I did not consume the children of Israel in My zeal.
Num 25:12 Therefore say, 'Behold, I give to him My covenant of peace;
Num 25:13 and it shall be to him and his descendants after him a covenant of an everlasting priesthood, because he was zealous for his God, and made atonement for the children of Israel.' "

Then to the Gentile, in Jesus Christ (son of David):

Eze 34:23 I will establish one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them—My servant David. He shall feed them and be their shepherd.
Eze 34:24 And I, the LORD, will be their God, and My servant David a prince among them; I, the LORD, have spoken.
The Lord's Covenant of Peace
Eze 34:25 "I will make a covenant of peace with them, and cause wild beasts to cease from the land; and they will dwell safely in the wilderness and sleep in the woods.
Eze 34:26 I will make them and the places all around My hill a blessing; and I will cause showers to come down in their season; there shall be showers of blessing.
Eze 34:27 Then the trees of the field shall yield their fruit, and the earth shall yield her increase. They shall be safe in their land; and they shall know that I am the LORD, when I have broken the bands of their yoke and delivered them from the hand of those who enslaved them.
Eze 34:28 And they shall no longer be a prey for the nations, nor shall beasts of the land devour them; but they shall dwell safely, and no one shall make them afraid.
Eze 34:29 I will raise up for them a garden of renown, and they shall no longer be consumed with hunger in the land, nor bear the shame of the Gentiles anymore.
Eze 34:30 Thus they shall know that I, the LORD their God, am with them, and they, the house of Israel, are My people," says the Lord GOD.' "
Eze 34:31 "You are My flock, the flock of My pasture; you are men, and I am your God," says the Lord GOD.

And then in general, the scripture plainly provides for two related types of salvation, and therefore two witnesses:

Rom_9:6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel,

Which scripture interprets scripture:

Rom_11:26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "THE DELIVERER WILL COME OUT OF ZION, AND HE WILL TURN AWAY UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB;
Rom 11:27 FOR THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."
Rom 11:28 Concerning the gospel they [those of the Jewish faith] are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the [first covenant with the] fathers.
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Which states that the first covenant was not taken away to provide for the second covenant, which is substantiated by:

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.
Rom 3:29 Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also,
Rom 3:30 since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

The faith referred to is non-specific, as clearly the object of the two faiths are different, though Christians know them to be one, as Christians know that Jesus is the Word, just as Jehovah is the Word. So, this scripture is not saying that the circumcised are justified by faith in Jesus Christ, but rather by faith in the Word, YHWH. If it were otherwise, Paul would not have put an article in front of "circumcised", as "the circumcised" refers to Jews who have not converted to Christianity.

Romans chapter 3 is further clarified in Romans chapter 4:

Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all

Another scriptural passage which requires discernment to properly interpret is:

Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree,
Rom 11:18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.

Preceding the above passage of scripture Paul is speaking of Jewish conversion to Christianity, but at the above point he clearly makes allowance for the Jews who maintain the Jewish faith, and are saved therein.

And, as Jewish non-Christian salvation is compared to a tree, here it is compared to a cloud:

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Heb 11:14 For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland.
Heb 11:15 And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return.
Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.

Clearly, Jewish salvation was historically true, and it remains so in the Christian era. Replacement theology is false, and it is an aspect of the apostate Church.

............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

For Christians, the covenant of peace is according to the gospel of reconciliation:

Rev 10:1 I saw still another mighty angel coming down from heaven, clothed with a cloud. And a rainbow was on his head, his face was like the sun, and his feet like pillars of fire.

Isa 54:9 "For this is like the waters of Noah to Me; For as I have sworn That the waters of Noah would no longer cover the earth, So have I sworn That I would not be angry with you, nor rebuke you.
Isa 54:10 For the mountains shall depart And the hills be removed, But My kindness shall not depart from you, Nor shall My covenant of peace be removed," Says the LORD, who has mercy on you.

Gen 9:13 I set My rainbow in the cloud, and it shall be for the sign of the covenant between Me and the earth.
Gen 9:14 It shall be, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the rainbow shall be seen in the cloud;

Rev 10:2 He had a little book open in his hand. And he set his right foot on the sea [of Gentiles] and his left foot on the [people of the holy] land,
Rev 10:3 and cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roars. When he cried out, seven thunders uttered their voices.

Can you hear me now? When you see a rainbow, ask yourself; which of the Lord's little ones are you persecuting by your false doctrine?

Be well, be blessed.

 

[Terraphim]

There is no salvation in Islam; they are all lost as long as they stay in Islam and do not acknowledge Jesus for who he is and for his finished work on the cross.

Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all

Your exclusionist statement: "Salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone".

How is that "exclusionist"? It is available for all people. There is no salvation outside of Christ.

Christian salvation is available for all people, yes. It is exclusionist, however, when one denies a related salvation by the Word YHWH for those who are faithful to the Jewish and Islamic religions.

Act 4:12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” (ESV)

There is salvation only in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazereth, from the context. Yes, this is true. That is why one of the key components of my argument is that people who are saved in the Jewish and Islamic faiths are also saved through Jesus Christ, but He is in persona, and veiled. The persona is understood by the proselyte as being an intermediary; either Moses or Mohammad. The persona is witnessed during the Manifestation, which is the appearing of the Lord Jesus in glory to the believer, when one becomes one of the chosen, which is upon entrance to the third septum heaven. The generations of the regeneration are, again, the faithful, the called, the chosen, and the accepted. The two ways of witnessing the Manifestation of Jesus to a believer is what defines the two witnesses, as it is either a veiled or personal Manifestation. Personal salvation is well known to be true in Christianity, as that is one witness. The other witness is veiled salvation, which is therefore sacerdotal; through an intermediary.

Minimal effect from private interpretation only occurs when one takes into account all of the church voices over the centuries.

While the import of tradition is one consideration, it is not as important as scripture interpreted by scripture, comprehensively.

You are adding to Scripture which is a grave error.

I have added nothing to scripture.
You have accused me falsely.

Exo 20:16 "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

Deu 19:16 If a false witness rises against any man to testify against him of wrongdoing,
Deu 19:17 then both men in the controversy shall stand before the LORD, before the priests and the judges who serve in those days.
Deu 19:18 And the judges shall make careful inquiry, and indeed, if the witness is a false witness, who has testified falsely against his brother,
Deu 19:19 then you shall do to him as he thought to have done to his brother; so you shall put away the evil from among you.
Deu 19:20 And those who remain shall hear and fear, and hereafter they shall not again commit such evil among you.
Deu 19:21 Your eye shall not pity: life shall be for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.

Rev 22:18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book;
Rev 22:19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

What I have done is to build upon the solid foundation, line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little.

1Co 3:10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it.
1Co 3:11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

There are, however, many Christians which have left the Church as a result of the Church's inability to progress from old doctrinal perspectives which no longer hold up as a result of much scholarly work in many areas.

Which areas and what scholarly work?

I was thinking mostly of scientific scholarship. The modern exodus from the Church as a result of secular education in the sciences does not need to happen. I am able to address many concerns in this area. I am also able to address many doctrinal concerns, as well. A Church which is unwilling to face the reality of progressive revelation is a Church which fails in it's mission, to present the good news of the truth of the gospel, the full gospel, and nothing but the gospel. That is why the position of prophet is necessary to balance the tendency of priests to be domineering and to attempt to stultify the laity according to the leaven of Herodianism. I was able to straighten my thinking regarding the error of replacement theology when I heard the truth of the double covenant from a theologian speaking from a church pulpit.

Your doctrine is far from plain

Plain doctrine will be found to be in accordance with:

Joh 16:25 "These things I have spoken to you in figurative language; but the time is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figurative language, but I will tell you plainly about the Father.

Free: (during edit, when quote doesn't work)
But you have presented untruths, such as transmigration and the belief that Jews and Muslims can/will be saved apart from faith in Christ.

You are entitled to your opinion. I believe that these things are scripturally true, in the manner that I have taught.

Mat 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart, For they shall see God.
Mat 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers, For they shall be called sons of God.

Be blessed, be well.

 

[Terraphim]

Terraphim said: (without boldface type) Yes, ethnic Jews are saved as Christians, as you have said. However, I am speaking of Jews being saved as Jews, and Islamics being saved as Islamics. If Jews are not still saved as Jews, then the Christian church has replaced the Judaic church, but this is not so. I have quoted several scriptures which are very definitive in this matter.

Explain what you are saying in the bold above .

The two witnesses are two peoples who bear witness of what they have witnessed, the veiled or personal Manifestation of the Lord. The first witness is of the Jews and Islamics who are faithful to their religion, in their faith to the God of Abraham, YHWH Jehovah or Yahveh, who witness in a vision the Lord Jesus in glory in persona and veiled, who they believe is Moses or Mohammad. That vision is the Manifestation, which occurs at the begining of the third juxtaposed septum heaven, when one becomes one of the chosen generation. The four generations of the regeneration are; the faithful, the called, the chosen, and the accepted.

This is not a thread topic which should be in the unorthodox doctrine forum. Unorthodox means not correct. I maintain that this is correct. However, one may view it as heterodox, as it is the dual covenant doctrine, which is the correction for an erroneous replacement theology. All that I have done is to understand the doctrinal manner in which the two covenants are reconciled from the Christian perspective.

Be blessed, be well.

 

[Free]

Terraphim said:
I have quoted several scriptures which are very definitive in this matter.

I don't know exactly where I posted them, but this is the trend, with some additional material.

From Revelation chapter 11:

Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth.

This term directs us to:

Isa 54:5 For your Maker is your husband, The LORD of hosts is His name; And your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel; He is called the God of the whole earth.
Isa 54:6 For the LORD has called you Like a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, Like a youthful wife when you were refused," Says your God.
Isa 54:7 "For a mere moment I have forsaken you, But with great mercies I will gather you.
Isa 54:8 With a little wrath I hid My face from you for a moment; But with everlasting kindness I will have mercy on you," Says the LORD, your Redeemer.
Isa 54:9 "For this is like the waters of Noah to Me; For as I have sworn That the waters of Noah would no longer cover the earth, So have I sworn That I would not be angry with you, nor rebuke you.
Isa 54:10 For the mountains shall depart And the hills be removed, But My kindness shall not depart from you, Nor shall My covenant of peace be removed," Says the LORD, who has mercy on you.

Well, not really. Rev 11:4 points us to Zec 4:11-14:

Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. (ESV)

Zec 4:11 Then I said to him, “What are these two olive trees on the right and the left of the lampstand?”
Zec 4:12 And a second time I answered and said to him, “What are these two branches of the olive trees, which are beside the two golden pipes from which the golden oil is poured out?”
Zec 4:13 He said to me, “Do you not know what these are?” I said, “No, my lord.”
Zec 4:14 Then he said, “These are the two anointed ones who stand by the Lord of the whole earth.” (ESV)

The above salvation, by the redemptive covenant of peace, was first to the Jew:

Num 25:10 Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying:
Num 25:11 "Phinehas the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, has turned back My wrath from the children of Israel, because he was zealous with My zeal among them, so that I did not consume the children of Israel in My zeal.
Num 25:12 Therefore say, 'Behold, I give to him My covenant of peace;
Num 25:13 and it shall be to him and his descendants after him a covenant of an everlasting priesthood, because he was zealous for his God, and made atonement for the children of Israel.' "

Then to the Gentile, in Jesus Christ (son of David):

Eze 34:23 I will establish one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them—My servant David. He shall feed them and be their shepherd.
Eze 34:24 And I, the LORD, will be their God, and My servant David a prince among them; I, the LORD, have spoken.
The Lord's Covenant of Peace
Eze 34:25 "I will make a covenant of peace with them, and cause wild beasts to cease from the land; and they will dwell safely in the wilderness and sleep in the woods.
Eze 34:26 I will make them and the places all around My hill a blessing; and I will cause showers to come down in their season; there shall be showers of blessing.
Eze 34:27 Then the trees of the field shall yield their fruit, and the earth shall yield her increase. They shall be safe in their land; and they shall know that I am the LORD, when I have broken the bands of their yoke and delivered them from the hand of those who enslaved them.
Eze 34:28 And they shall no longer be a prey for the nations, nor shall beasts of the land devour them; but they shall dwell safely, and no one shall make them afraid.
Eze 34:29 I will raise up for them a garden of renown, and they shall no longer be consumed with hunger in the land, nor bear the shame of the Gentiles anymore.
Eze 34:30 Thus they shall know that I, the LORD their God, am with them, and they, the house of Israel, are My people," says the Lord GOD.' "
Eze 34:31 "You are My flock, the flock of My pasture; you are men, and I am your God," says the Lord GOD.

Eze 34:23-31 is written to the Jews, not the Gentiles. It clearly states in verse 29 that the Israelites will no longer "bear the shame of the Gentiles," because of all the things listed in verses 25-29.

The covenant of peace with Israel will be under "David," which, of course, refers to the Messiah. The covenant of peace in Numbers 25 is most likely a foreshadowing of the covenant of peace under Jesus.

And then in general, the scripture plainly provides for two related types of salvation, and therefore two witnesses:

.....

Gen 9:13 I set My rainbow in the cloud, and it shall be for the sign of the covenant between Me and the earth.
Gen 9:14 It shall be, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the rainbow shall be seen in the cloud;

Rev 10:2 He had a little book open in his hand. And he set his right foot on the sea [of Gentiles] and his left foot on the [people of the holy] land,
Rev 10:3 and cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roars. When he cried out, seven thunders uttered their voices.

You have made connections where there are none and so have misinterpreted several passages of Scripture. So, I will simply post the verses I previously posted, which you didn't address, but make clear that the way of salvation is the way for all people, at all times, in all places.

Joh 1:11 He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him.
Joh 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
Joh 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. (ESV)

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’
...
Joh 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. (ESV)

Act 2:36 Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.”
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”
Act 2:38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Act 2:39 For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.” (ESV)

Act 4:12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” (ESV)

Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.
Rom 10:11 For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.”
Rom 10:12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him.
Rom 10:13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” (ESV)

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. (ESV)

There are many more, but the teaching of Jesus, the Apostles, and the NT writers is clear: there is only one way of salvation, for everyone, and that is through believing in the Jesus of the Bible and his atoning work.

Can you hear me now? When you see a rainbow, ask yourself; which of the Lord's little ones are you persecuting by your false doctrine?

I have no idea what you're asking.

 

[Free]

Christian salvation is available for all people, yes. It is exclusionist, however, when one denies a related salvation by the Word YHWH for those who are faithful to the Jewish and Islamic religions.

There is no "related salvation," even if it is said to be "by the Word YHWH." Salvation is and ever will be only through faith in who the Jesus of the Bible is and his atoning work. I have given several passages which prove this to be the case and can provide more if need be.

There is salvation only in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazereth, from the context. Yes, this is true. That is why one of the key components of my argument is that people who are saved in the Jewish and Islamic faiths are also saved through Jesus Christ, but He is in persona, and veiled. The persona is understood by the proselyte as being an intermediary; either Moses or Mohammad. The persona is witnessed during the Manifestation, which is the appearing of the Lord Jesus in glory to the believer, when one becomes one of the chosen, which is upon entrance to the third septum heaven. The generations of the regeneration are, again, the faithful, the called, the chosen, and the accepted. The two ways of witnessing the Manifestation of Jesus to a believer is what defines the two witnesses, as it is either a veiled or personal Manifestation. Personal salvation is well known to be true in Christianity, as that is one witness. The other witness is veiled salvation, which is therefore sacerdotal; through an intermediary.

This is more akin to Hinduism and avatars and has nothing to do with Christianity. Jesus is God in human flesh. A person must believe in the Jesus of the Bible and his atoning work for salvation. There is no such thing as an intermediary in biblical salvation, especially if it has to do with Mohammad, who was a false prophet and servant of Satan.

While the import of tradition is one consideration, it is not as important as scripture interpreted by scripture, comprehensively.

You keep using the term "comprehensively," but have yet to put together any coherent view of Scripture to support anything you have said. Pulling verses willy-nilly from all over the place, verses that have little, if anything, to do directly with each other, might be comprehensive, but that doesn't make it correct.

I have added nothing to scripture.
You have accused me falsely.

You have said the Bible teaches transmigration of souls, which is adding to Scripture. You have now said there is another way of salvation through an intermediary for Jews and Muslims, which is adding to Scripture. Muslims and Jews will not be saved if they reject Jesus as Lord, if they reject him as the Son of God who died and rose again for their sins, the same as everyone else.

What I have done is to build upon the solid foundation, line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little.

You have taken verses which have nothing to do directly with each other and tried to make them say something they don't. You are reading into Scripture preconceived ideas rather than letting it speak for itself.

I was thinking mostly of scientific scholarship. The modern exodus from the Church as a result of secular education in the sciences does not need to happen. I am able to address many concerns in this area. I am also able to address many doctrinal concerns, as well. A Church which is unwilling to face the reality of progressive revelation is a Church which fails in it's mission, to present the good news of the truth of the gospel, the full gospel, and nothing but the gospel. That is why the position of prophet is necessary to balance the tendency of priests to be domineering and to attempt to stultify the laity according to the leaven of Herodianism.

What, exactly, do you mean by progressive revelation? And, again, which "old doctrinal perspectives which no longer hold up as a result of much scholarly work in many areas"? I'm looking for specifics, not generalities.

I was able to straighten my thinking regarding the error of replacement theology when I heard the truth of the double covenant from a theologian speaking from a church pulpit.

You have yet to show that you know what replacement theology is.

Plain doctrine will be found to be in accordance with:

Joh 16:25 "These things I have spoken to you in figurative language; but the time is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figurative language, but I will tell you plainly about the Father.

Free: (during edit, when quote doesn't work)
But you have presented untruths, such as transmigration and the belief that Jews and Muslims can/will be saved apart from faith in Christ.

You are entitled to your opinion. I believe that these things are scripturally true, in the manner that I have taught.

But they are not biblically true, no matter how much you want to think they are. And that is not merely my opinion.

 

[Terraphim]

As usual, we appear to be talking past each other, but that's fine, I know that you need to get your point of view out to the readers, more than you need to actually speak to me. Sorry to just drop the conversation for several years, but as I said at some point, I am not going to be able to maintain the thread indefinitely, and neither do I plan to make extensive efforts at present.

A few updates;
Item 1) The dual covenant doctrine is primarily based on the fact that there are two blood covenants;
#1 The blood covenant of circumcision, which is both Jewish and Islamic, is the First Witness.
Jewish Circumcision: eight days, Gen.17:12.
Islamic Circumcision: post-pubescent, Gen.17:25.
No Female Genital Mutilation, FGM: Gen.17:10,12,14/ Exo.12:48.
#2 The blood covenant of Jesus Christ, which is Christian only, is the Second Witness.

The fact that the first covenant is still in effect is clearly evident from "some";
Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree,
Rom 11:18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
Also from "irrevocable";
Rom 11:28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Further, when reading Paul it is important to remember that he used terms like "Israel" variously, both inclusively for all of the faithful, either in Yahveh or Yeshua; and he also uses it exclusively, for those who are of Israel according to the flesh.
The above scriptures are definative, however, and therefore many other scriptures are properly understood as being supportive of the dual covenant perspective.

The fact that Islam is a part of the First Covenant/ First Witness is ascertained from the fact that they are called a great nation, just as the Jews are called a great nation, of God. Speaking to Abram, God said;
Gen_12:2 I will make you a great nation; I will bless you And make your name great; And you shall be a blessing.
Speaking to Abraham, God said;
Gen_17:20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard you. Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall beget twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation.
And speaking to Hagar, God said;
Gen_21:18 Arise, lift up the lad and hold him with your hand, for I will make him a great nation."

For this reason, Islamics rightly say, "Allah akbar!", that is, The God is great!
They say this of God the Power, not of God the Father. The Power does not beget, but the Father did.

Item 2) The Tetragrammaton, the four Words, are YHWH in circular order (in either direction, clockwise or counter),
or in order of linear descent, YHHW.
This is the Power and the Presence (the Presence(s) is the Trinity). The Son is the express (present tense) image of the Father (HH), and the Holy Spirit is the Paraclete, God with us (W).

Item 3) The four Spiritual Generations, of the Regeneration of the Spirit Body within the physical bodies, are;
#1 The Righteous Generation (Formerly the Faithful Generation; righteous by faith, Rom.4:4-12)

Psa 14:1 To the Chief Musician. A Psalm of David. The fool has said in his heart,"There is no God." They are corrupt, They have done abominable works, There is none who does good.
Psa 14:2 The LORD looks down from heaven upon the children of men, To see if there are any who understand, who seek God.
Psa 14:3 They have all turned aside, They have together become corrupt; There is none who does good, No, not one.
Psa 14:4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge, Who eat up my people as they eat bread, And do not call on the LORD?
Psa 14:5 There they are in great fear, For God is with the generation of the righteous.
Psa 14:6 You shame the counsel of the poor, But the LORD is his refuge.
Psa 14:7 Oh, that the salvation of Israel would come out of Zion! When the LORD brings back the captivity of His people, Let Jacob rejoice and Israel be glad.

#1 The Righteous Generation;...The Seal of Anointing..................(the Wedding invitation)
#2 The Called Generation;...........The Covering of Immersion.......(the Wedding garment)
#3 The Chosen Generation;.........The Infilling of Communion.......(the Wedding feast)
#4 The Accepted Generation;.....The Indwelling of Pedlution.......(the Wedding door)
Foot washing occurs before one crosses the threshhold of the dwelling,
which is why the Bride is carried over, such that (s)he keeps her feet clean.

These are the stages of the Second Birth, even as the natural birth has 4 stages, as grain, Mar.4:28,29;
#1 Conception,.......The blade
#2 Gestation,...........The head
#3 Travail,..................The grain in the head
#4 Delivery,............. The harvest; the concurrent Resurrection of the Spirit Body within the physical bodies.
The sickle is not death, but the entry of the sword of the Word, that's the substance of
the Spirit Body, into the physical bodies.

Item 4) Lastly, you are welcome to your interpretation, and all who are with you, but only God properly understands the truth of the Spirit Realm, that's the Kingdom of Heaven. When a false accusation of adding to scripture is lodged, based solely on an interpretation which is not a private interpretation by God, it is a serious matter. For this reason, I am going to detail the scriptural proof for transmigration, as follows.

John the Baptist was the forerunner of Jesus, Mal.4:5,6/ Luk.1:17/ Mat.17:10-12, and though he was not Elijah by way of physical resurrection, Joh.1:21, he was Elijah by way of transmigration, Mat.11:14/ Job.14:14,20b,22/19:25-27, and not by type. The foregoing quote, Job.19:25-27, refers to transmigration, not to the erroneous doctrine of the general resurrection of physical bodies, because previous to Job.19:25-27, Job makes it abundantly clear that the idea of a physical general resurrection is incorrect, Job.7:9/10:21/14:12/16:22, and Paul concurs, 1Co.15:42,44.8 Consequently, Job19:25-27 is a clear statement which stablishes transmigration as Biblical fact. Though the general resurection is not physical, some individual physical resurrections do occasionally happen, but when it does happen, it is a rare miraculous event.

Further, a proper understanding of the resurrection of "the just and the unjust" is needed, where the "just" are those of the first covenant, and the "unjust" (who are vicariously justified) are those of the second covenant. Therefore, the wicked are not a part of the general resurrection, which is the concurrrent resurrection of the spirit body within the physical bodies. The wicked are spiritually dead except for the soul, for they are Wick-ed, the past tense of Living, and they do not return to Life if they do not have a confession of faith in God.

Therefore, the good may return to Life, but the evil may not return to Life, while they remain evil. Both the good and the evil may transmigrate, however, such that they may further advance in their Day, and spiritually ascend unto the next Day, unto the next spiritual generation. However, the evil ones sometimes choose to not go into the Light after physical death, in which case they linger on as ghosts, which are evil spirits, of varying degree. It is a mistake to linger, as there is only so much time given for one to return to God, and the alternative is the perdition of the soul, which is final spiritual death.

Verse 25 "though he may die, he shall live" is in reference to transmigration.
Joh 11:23 Jesus said to her, "Your brother will rise again."
Joh 11:24 Martha said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."
Joh 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live.
Joh 11:26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?"

By abiding in confessed faith, we have the victory over spiritual death, which is the general resurrection of the spirit body within the physical bodies, concurrently, in the present tense. Fortunately, as Christians, God does not require us to have perfect knowledge to be saved and to advance in the Kingdom. We simply need to have a confession of faith in Jesus Christ, to partake of the 2 of 4 first-work rites (sacraments) which are the necessary rites of baptism and communion, and to abide within the measure of grace, Eph.4:7.
Therefore, be blessed, and be well.

 

[Alfred Persson]

2Co 12:1 It is doubtless not profitable for me to boast. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord:
2Co 12:2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up to the third heaven.
2Co 12:3 And I know such a man—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows—
2Co 12:4 how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Paul was here speaking of the three tertiary heavens; the heaven of the atmosphere, the heaven of outer space, and the heaven of the spirit realm that is the juxtaposed kingdom of heaven. The third tertiary heaven is composed of a 7 heaven (septum) system.
Rev_2:7 "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God." '
The third tertiary heaven is the spiritual heaven which is a heaven of heavens, of seven heavens, the primary septum. The regeneration of the second birth occurs throughout the first four courses of heavens, which are also the four primary foundations of the New Jerusalem. The begining of the fourth heaven is when the concurrent resurrection of the spirit body within the physical body begins, and the fourth heaven is in the middle of the septum, in the midst.
The tree of life pertains particularly to the concurrent resurrection of the spirit body, which occurs over about 3.5 years, at the beginning of the middle course of the heavens, in the midst. So, Paradise is the seven heavens, and so Paradise is the septum. Therefore, when Jesus said to the converted thief on the neighboring cross;
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."
He did not move the comma to say;
"Assuredly, I say to you today, you will be with Me in Paradise."
So, we have defined Paradise.
Next, the spirit body doesn't die, but can die; true. Eternal security is false.
The spirit bodies of Elijah and Moses were resurrected when they were incarnate, the same as everyone except Jesus. They continued to live as spirits after their physical bodies were left behind, as all do. But further, Elijah was translated 2Kin2:11, as was Enoch Gen5:24. Translation occurs when a spirit body ascends so close to God that the physical body can no longer endure, and spontaneous somatic combustion occurs.
1Co 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.
The presence of Moses indicates that he also translated. So, it is clear that Jesus left His Glory in heaven, such that it could not be seen in His physical body, except for this one time. The transfiguration was given such that we could understand the translation. When Jesus transfigured, it was translation, but He was the Word made flesh, so His flesh did not combust.
Be blessed, be well.

Many believe neither Moses or Elijah were raised up in supernatural bodies like Christians receive in Christ.

Moses died but was raised up like other OT people were, in the same body he died in. Michael went to get the body so he would be resurrected in heaven, not on earth:

Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!" (Jude 1:9 NKJ)

Elijah never died, he was taken into third heaven still alive:

And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. (2 Ki. 2:11 KJV)

The letter "from Elijah" to King Jehoram (2 Chron. 21:8) could have been delivered by "messengers" from heaven ( Heb 13:2) or possibly a previous written prophecy to be delivered after he left.

Therefore, it is suggested for Moses and Elijah to bear the resurrection image of Christ as Christians will after the Rapture/gathering/first resurrection, they die during the parousia (coming) of Christ to be raised in resurrection bodies like Christ's.

But the simplest interpretation of the context (hermeneutical principle of parsimony), is the two witnesses are two individuals because only individuals can be slain, then resurrected in Jerusalem by the Antichrist Beast.

"Two Groups of people" would not have two bodies earth dwellers can watch die rise, and then ascend into heaven. Dying in normal bodies, only to be raised up in supernatural bodies would certainly strike fear into the hearts of evil doers, and cause the righteous to rejoice.

 

[Terraphim]

Hello again. It appears that the last part of my material that you quoted is what is relevant, concerning the general resurrection. It was not as well written as it should have been. The spirit bodies of Elijah and Moses were resurrected previous to their eventual translation, probably during previous lives. Their translation is evident from the vision of transfiguration.

The translation, like the resurrection, is basically the same for all people. It occurs when one's spirit body ascends high enough in the juxtaposed heavens that the entry into that next higher heaven results in the spontaneous somatic combustion of the physical body due to the higher energy level of that next higher heaven. The idea of the chariot of fire for Elijah, and the Archangel Michael's contention with the Devil for the body of Moses, are both aspects of the translation. Elijah's translation was not much hindered, in comparison to the translation of Moses, who was a murderer, and had the burden of rule. That was why Michael's intercession was needed, to retrieve Moses' body from the Accuser. Further, it appears that there were remains of Moses' body after translation occurred, which were buried. Post-translation remains are the result of the pollution of sin. Moses died, in the sense that there were some remains after his translation, and he was buried by the Lord. However, his vigor was not diminished, and his grave is not known, both of which are indications of the translation. In this case, the term "buried by the Lord" should be understood to mean translated, with some remains. So, they were both translated, and the letter from Elijah to Jehoram, I previously showed to be irrelevant.

The general resurrection is the same for all people, OT or NT; it is spiritual not physical, concurrent not end time, and personal not en mass. The first resurrection is the early harvest, and the second resurrection is the late harvest. The first harvest ended when the Satan was released to gather Gog and Magog (Russia and China) together for the battle of Armageddon, which began with the birth of Karl Marx in 1866 (6+6+6=18|66=Gog and Magog).

The Two Witnesses are two groups of people, of the two covenants, who will largely be killed in the Holy Land during Armageddon. Though the Holy Peoples will be widely persecuted during the three and a half day (year) period of time which follows Armageddon, there will be a large revival, especially in regards to a proper understanding of the general resurrection, such that the normal process of spiritual resurrection and translation occur, in that "the breath of God entered them, and they stood on their feet... and they ascended to heaven in a cloud" of witnesses, who are therefore at peace with each other. The 1st and 2nd NT Beasts are the same as the 4 OT Beasts, which are worldly empires which attempt to overrule the Holy Peoples. The 2 NT Beasts will overcome Gog and Magog, and after the devastation of Armageddon, the dual covenant Church will grow stronger, until the the Lord comes, and the Last Battle is won, over those who do not have faith in The God, the Father, or the Son; which together are YHWH, which is the Power and the Presence(s) of the Trinity of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Be blessed, be well.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Hello again. It appears that the last part of my material that you quoted is what is relevant, concerning the general resurrection. It was not as well written as it should have been. The spirit bodies of Elijah and Moses were resurrected previous to their eventual translation, probably during previous lives. Their translation is evident from the vision of transfiguration.

The apostle Peter was eyewitness to the transfiguration.

Moses and Elijah were not in spirit bodies, they were physical.

That is why Peter wanted to make tents for them, so they could rest their physical bodies while they discussed matters, in the shade protected from the hot sun:

Peter answered, and said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you want, let us make three tents here: one for you, one for Moses, and one for Elijah." (Matt. 17:4 RPTE)

No one makes tents for spirits.

 

[Terraphim]

Mat_17:9 Now as they came down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, "Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man is risen from the dead."

The three tents are in reference to the three branches of the dual covenant Church. It appears that the suggestion for a tent for the Prophet Elijah represented the coming Mosque of the Prophet Mohammad.

While it is uncomfortable for each of the three monotheistic semitic (Shem) religions to allow for each other, it is the Biblical plan, dispute it if you will. Continued reformation and restoration is necessary for all three branches. We are all servants of the Lord, if we are truly following God. It has always been the policy of the world to try to divide and conquer, and division is first attempted by attempting to control the rhetorical spin.

Be blessed, be well.