Why Hell?

[The Light]

After reading and joining the thread on the idea of an eternal Hell, (an idea I have believed in most of my life), I must honestly say I now question my beliefs on the matter thanks to various posters. For almost the last full week I have been racking my brain, praying, and studying so that I can get a grip on this idea. A question I cannot get out of my head now is that of why any person would deserve an eternity in Hell.

What can be done in a lifetime to merit an eternity of anything whether good or bad? As a Christian, the good eternity is easy to answer because we know that it is the grace of God at work, however; when looking at the bad eternity and applying the same standards, what replaces God's grace? I cannot see how the punishment of eternity fits the crime of a lifetime of sin and I'm slightly embarrassed I hadn't thought more about this previously.

 

[gr8grace3]

Its because not one person goes to the lake of fire for their personal sins. Christ paid the price for sin, ALL sin on the cross did he not?

An eternal God died for OUR sins. So Hell and going there is based upon what we do with the ETERNAL SON.

I believe that sin is infinite, that is why an infinite eternal God had to die on the cross for ALL sin.

When we see verses that say all liars, sexually immoral and so on won't see the Kingdom. It is not about the Sin itself, it is about that sin distracted the individual from coming to the SON. They were SONLESS, and sin kept them from making the choice for the Son. They will be judged upon the fact that they were Sonless, they will not be judged for their personal sin. That is why the Lake of fire is eternal. the Son is eternal.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Choice is the reason hell is just.

People go to hell, deservedly, because they themselves, when given the choice between righteousness and unrighteousness, chose unrighteousness.

"...all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness." (2 Timothy 2:12 NIV)

Unrepentant sinners like to paint themselves as helpless victims of an unjust God, but the truth is they simply prefer wickedness over righteousness.

 

[TimothyW]

After reading and joining the thread on the idea of an eternal Hell, (an idea I have believed in most of my life), I must honestly say I now question my beliefs on the matter thanks to various posters. For almost the last full week I have been racking my brain, praying, and studying so that I can get a grip on this idea. A question I cannot get out of my head now is that of why any person would deserve an eternity in Hell.

What can be done in a lifetime to merit an eternity of anything whether good or bad? As a Christian, the good eternity is easy to answer because we know that it is the grace of God at work, however; when looking at the bad eternity and applying the same standards, what replaces God's grace? I cannot see how the punishment of eternity fits the crime of a lifetime of sin and I'm slightly embarrassed I hadn't thought more about this previously.

According to the Bible, the wages of sin is death, not an eternity of torture in Hell. See Romans 6:23.
The lost perish. They aren't tortured alive forever in Hell after they die. See John 3:16, and Luke 13:3.
A person's soul is destroyed in Hell (Gehenna) It is not preserved alive forever in Gehenna so that it can be tortured. See Matthew 10:28, and Matthew 7:13.
The soul who sins shall die. See Ezekiel 18:4 where it says "The soul who sins shall die".

Nobody deserves eternal life in Hell, Also nobody deserves eternal life with God, it is a free gift.
Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
There is no eternal life outside of Christ, not even in "Hell".

 

[WIP]

The question is not whether Hell is eternal torment or not. There is already a thread with this discussion going. Let's not derail this thread.

 

[Andrew Mason]

I cannot see how the punishment of eternity fits the crime of a lifetime of sin and I'm slightly embarrassed I hadn't thought more about this previously.

I understand the wrestling this thought creates. Consider this though:

"4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.” - Revelation 21:4

There is nothing in my life that I can point to do which makes me feel worthy of the Eternity that is described in Revelation 21:4. It may be difficult to comprehend the justice of Hell, but I cannot justify the promise of Eternal life based on my own works.

Bottom line for me: I know I don't deserve Heaven apart from Jesus. Thank God for His mercy and grace!

I highly recommend "Erasing Hell" by Francis Chan.

 

[Randy]

Its because not one person goes to the lake of fire for their personal sins. Christ paid the price for sin, ALL sin on the cross did he not?

An eternal God died for OUR sins. So Hell and going there is based upon what we do with the ETERNAL SON.

I believe that sin is infinite, that is why an infinite eternal God had to die on the cross for ALL sin.

When we see verses that say all liars, sexually immoral and so on won't see the Kingdom. It is not about the Sin itself, it is about that sin distracted the individual from coming to the SON. They were SONLESS, and sin kept them from making the choice for the Son. They will be judged upon the fact that they were Sonless, they will not be judged for their personal sin. That is why the Lake of fire is eternal. the Son is eternal.

What can be done in a lifetime to merit an eternity of anything whether good or bad? As a Christian, the good eternity is easy to answer because we know that it is the grace of God at work, however; when looking at the bad eternity and applying the same standards, what replaces God's grace? I cannot see how the punishment of eternity fits the crime of a lifetime of sin and I'm slightly embarrassed I hadn't thought more about this previously.[/quote]

I am sure you read what we read in scripture. As I see a loving God warns and warns upfront. Wanting all people to chose life. But even in the OT when such warnings went unheeded God showed Himself Holy. I would state that in regard to any judgments made it will be the Lords words that prevail. Did you read Rev as Jesus spoke to the 7 churches? I think people confuse Gods patience with weakness. It is not a matter to me to consider if God needs to punish sin as in scripture I can see that God does punish sin if His warnings and corrections go unheeded. So all people are appointed once to die and then face judgment. It wouldn't be good to hear the One who has authority to forgive sin state to one "I don't know you".

Jesus was one witness the Father was the other. Jesus was confident in His judgments because He always does what He sees His Father doing. In fact it was the Father in Him doing His work. I think its best to state listen to Jesus and follow Him as He is the judge of the living and the dead. The NT is open for all to read. Those who seek find. Those who ask receive. Those who knock the door will be opened.


The sexual immoral can "repent" and that would be a wise choice.



R.

 

[By Grace]

. A question I cannot get out of my head now is that of why any person would deserve an eternity in Hell.

What can be done in a lifetime to merit an eternity of anything whether good or bad? As a Christian, the good eternity is easy to answer because we know that it is the grace of God at work, however; when looking at the bad eternity and applying the same standards, what replaces God's grace? I cannot see how the punishment of eternity fits the crime of a lifetime of sin and I'm slightly embarrassed I hadn't thought more about this previously.

The doctrines of eternal reward and of election and the study of spiritual beings (angelogy) require a doctrine of hell. Jethro Bodine stated it eloquently above.

Since we are created as free moral agents, we are thus free to reject what God has already provided. Eden provides us with many examples. foremost was the act of disobedience of Adam and Eve. they had daily contact with God, and everything was perfect in Eden. By choosing to question God's wisdom, and not obeying God, they lost Eden, being forced to leave it.

Then there was the fall of Satan. His rebellion took 1/3 of the angels with him because they refused to believe God, but followed jealous Satan instead.

Finally, since Eden was an earthly reflection of Heaven there must be a place for both the angels who lost their first estate as well as those who reject the clearly visible things of this world, which point to God.

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools...
​

And because a refusal to believe is a rejection of election whereby man is saved by grace, (this is not promoting universalism) Hell must be the result of what happens when people choose to NOT listen to the things of this world that are all pointing to Jesus Christ for redemption.

Romans 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
​

So now you have my ideas, wrapped in Scripture why the doctrine of eternal punishment is important. it is not that God placed rebellious mankind in hell is is because people reject God, are unforgiven sinners, and the holiness of God is such that He cannot dwell in the presence of sin, that only the forgiven sinners, covered by the blood of Jesus Christ can enjoy the presence of God forever.

 

[jasoncran]

Choice is the reason hell is just.

People go to hell, deservedly, because they themselves, when given the choice between righteousness and unrighteousness, chose unrighteousness.

"...all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness." (2 Timothy 2:12 NIV)

Unrepentant sinners like to paint themselves as helpless victims of an unjust God, but the truth is they simply prefer wickedness over righteousness.

they do the same with courts and our so called justice system. 12 plus one and you are of luck as in the convicts say.

 

[gr8grace3]

The doctrines of eternal reward and of election and the study of spiritual beings (angelogy) require a doctrine of hell. Jethro Bodine stated it eloquently above.

Since we are created as free moral agents, we are thus free to reject what God has already provided. Eden provides us with many examples. foremost was the act of disobedience of Adam and Eve. they had daily contact with God, and everything was perfect in Eden. By choosing to question God's wisdom, and not obeying God, they lost Eden, being forced to leave it.

Then there was the fall of Satan. His rebellion took 1/3 of the angels with him because they refused to believe God, but followed jealous Satan instead.

Finally, since Eden was an earthly reflection of Heaven there must be a place for both the angels who lost their first estate as well as those who reject the clearly visible things of this world, which point to God.

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools...
​

And because a refusal to believe is a rejection of election whereby man is saved by grace, (this is not promoting universalism) Hell must be the result of what happens when people choose to NOT listen to the things of this world that are all pointing to Jesus Christ for redemption.

Romans 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
​

So now you have my ideas, wrapped in Scripture why the doctrine of eternal punishment is important. it is not that God placed rebellious mankind in hell is is because people reject God, are unforgiven sinners, and the holiness of God is such that He cannot dwell in the presence of sin, that only the forgiven sinners, covered by the blood of Jesus Christ can enjoy the presence of God forever.

Very well stated, I agree with you on the study of biblical election,Eternal rewards, and angelic study.

The angelic conflict, is why we humans are here. We are here to resolve that conflict. That is why the the lake of fire was prepared originally for Satan and the fallen angels. We are a witness to these fallen creatures, that God is merciful and He is Just to send them to eternal punishment. And as christians we are witnesses also to fallen man that God is merciful and Just to send unbelieving man to eternal punishment.

His Grace and His mercy ALWAYS comes before Judgement, So we know that Satan and the fallen angels rejected that Grace and mercy in times past.

 

[The Light]

So being eternally punished is the default for not believing in and submitting to God in life? Or is death and the subsequent termination of the soul the punishment?

Before, when I didn't give much thought to what this implies I could easily accept this idea of Hell, but after being exposed to scripture that can be used to illustrate that there may in fact not be an eternal hell and being confronted with the concept of what justice really is know of course that God is just; it's a lot more difficult to buy into the prevailing idea of Hell I've known all my life.

By Grace

The doctrines of eternal reward and of election and the study of spiritual beings (angelogy) require a doctrine of hell. Jethro Bodine stated it eloquently above.

So now you have my ideas, wrapped in Scripture why the doctrine of eternal punishment is important. it is not that God placed rebellious mankind in hell is is because people reject God, are unforgiven sinners, and the holiness of God is such that He cannot dwell in the presence of sin, that only the forgiven sinners, covered by the blood of Jesus Christ can enjoy the presence of God forever.

Angelogy is beyond me my friend. But as for the doctrines of eternal reward and of election, I fail to see why you would conclude that the doctrine of an eternal hell is required. I see no connection or relation whatsoever. Eternal reward is explained in grace. A punishment fitting the crime is explained in justice. So the question becomes, what crime is deserving of an eternal punishment and why?

 

[jasoncran]

So being eternally punished is the default for not believing in and submitting to God in life? Or is death and the subsequent termination of the soul the punishment?

Before, when I didn't give much thought to what this implies I could easily accept this idea of Hell, but after being exposed to scripture that can be used to illustrate that there may in fact not be an eternal hell and being confronted with the concept of what justice really is know of course that God is just; it's a lot more difficult to buy into the prevailing idea of Hell I've known all my life.

By Grace

Angelogy is beyond me my friend. But as for the doctrines of eternal reward and of election, I fail to see why you would conclude that the doctrine of an eternal hell is required. I see no connection or relation whatsoever. Eternal reward is explained in grace. A punishment fitting the crime is explained in justice. So the question becomes, what crime is deserving of an eternal punishment and why?

well why then doesn't a dead body live then if its the soul in it isn't destroyed. jesus said fear him who can destroy Both body and soul.

 

[The Light]

well why then doesn't a dead body live then if its the soul in it isn't destroyed. jesus said fear him who can destroy Both body and soul.

I'm sorry Jason but I don't understand what you mean here.

 

[jasoncran]

everyone that has questioned hell will believe in that we have no soul, soul sleep and all we are is just flesh. the bible doesn't support that.

 

[TimothyW]

well why then doesn't a dead body live then if its the soul in it isn't destroyed. jesus said fear him who can destroy Both body and soul.

Well, the dead body does live if the soul is not destroyed. We call that "Resurrection". When God destroys both the body and soul in Gehenna, It's all over for that person. the fat lady has sung. The body and soul are destroyed at the second coming, as a result of the final judgment.

everyone that has questioned hell will believe in that we have no soul, soul sleep and all we are is just flesh. the bible doesn't support that.

This is not quite accurate. We don't "have" a soul. We ARE souls. And the Bible says "the soul who sins shall die".

As Christians, we are counting on Jesus Christ to resurrect us to life. We are counting on His resurrection for eternal life.

 

[The Light]

everyone that has questioned hell will believe in that we have no soul, soul sleep and all we are is just flesh. the bible doesn't support that.

I hadn't thought about questioning the soul. The thought I had in mind was that at death, the soul goes to a intermediary place where it awaits judgment and the bodily resurrection spoken of in scripture. The Luke 16 passage uses an allegory that illustrates the idea I speak of where souls go to a purgatory-like holding area of both rest and punishment prior to the last day.

 

[The Light]

Well, the dead body does live if the soul is not destroyed. We call that "Resurrection". When God destroys both the body and soul in Gehenna, It's all over for that person. the fat lady has sung. The body and soul are destroyed at the second coming, as a result of the final judgment.


This is not quite accurate. We don't "have" a soul. We ARE souls. And the Bible says "the soul who sins shall die".

As Christians, we are counting on Jesus Christ to resurrect us to life. We are counting on His resurrection for eternal life.

Would you mind elaborating on the part in bold?

 

[TimothyW]

Would you mind elaborating on the part in bold?

The Hebrew word translated Soul is Nephesh. Here is the definition from Strongs

The NAS Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon
Strong's Number: 5315
Original WordWord Origin
Xpnfrom (05314)
Transliterated WordTDNT Entry
NepheshTWOT - 1395a
Phonetic SpellingParts of Speech
neh'-fesh Noun Feminine
Definition

1. soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion
   1. that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man
   2. living being
   3. living being (with life in the blood)
   4. the man himself, self, person or individual
   5. seat of the appetites
   6. seat of emotions and passions
   7. activity of mind
      1. dubious
   8. activity of the will
      1. dubious
   9. activity of the character
      1. dubious

The Greek word translated Soul is psuche, Here is the definition from Strongs

Strong's Concordance
psuché: breath, the soul
Original Word: ψυχή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: psuché
Phonetic Spelling: (psoo-khay')
Short Definition: the soul, life, self
Definition: (a) the vital breath, breath of life, (b) the human soul, (c) the soul as the seat of affections and will, (d) the self, (e) a human person, an individual.

 

[jasoncran]

ok so show me in any English sentence then with that statement. and satan can kill, if not God wouldn't have had to tell satan not to kill job. so if satan can kill both body and soul then we ought to fear him.

 

[jasoncran]

I hadn't thought about questioning the soul. The thought I had in mind was that at death, the soul goes to a intermediary place where it awaits judgment and the bodily resurrection spoken of in scripture. The Luke 16 passage uses an allegory that illustrates the idea I speak of where souls go to a purgatory-like holding area of both rest and punishment prior to the last day.

its not an allegory. its a parable. there is a difference.