Why I believe SDA's (& other sabbatarians) Are In Error

[SputnikBoy]

Despite your comments above, cj, you ALSO are quite passionate about this issue. Tell me, what exactly IS your problem with the Sabbath?

I'm passionate about the Lord, and by extension the building of His body and the hastening of His return.

Concerning the Sabbath..... I have no problem as I have Christ and He has me.

Now then, as an issue of this relationship I find myself from time to time contending for the truth.

SputnikBoy, it does not matter to me if you have some form of religious tradition that you adhere to on Saturdays, we all sin and fall short.

Um, it isn't so much a tradition as it is God having asked us to "remember the Sabbath and keep it holy ..." And, was the above a misprint or did you say that being obedient to the Sabbath is a sin?

But when your sin is presented as righteousness so that another might fall into the same sin then there is cause for contending for the truth so that another might be saved from falling.

So, you DID say that being obedient to the 4th-commandment is a sin! Is there any chance that you could present a scripture (one that is relevant to the statement above) to support this?

If you want to have some sort of thing going on a Saturday be my guest, but don't attempt to present it as some sort of truth that others might follow.

Hmmm, a very strange way to demonstrate your passion for the Lord ...by mocking one (All?) of His commandments.

 

[Solo]

Freedom From Sabbath-Keeping

We are told by those who insist that we must keep the Sabbath Day, that we are in great error because we worship on the first day of the week. We are informed that Sunday comes from the Pagan belief and worship of the Sun god. We are told that Jesus and Paul kept the Sabbath Day as an example for us to follow, and that the Roman Catholic Church is responsible for the change in the day of worship. If we continue to worship on Sunday, then we will receive the mark of the beast.

Let's briefly look at their arguments. First, nowhere does the Fourth Commandment say that we are to "worship" on the Sabbath Day. It commands that we rest on that day: "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it" (Exodus 20:8-11).

Sabbath-keepers worship on the Saturday. Do they know where the word "Saturday" comes from? It's from the Latin word "Saturnus--Saturn + Old English dæg day." Obviously Saturday is from the pagan day of worship of the planet Saturn (astrology).

If a Christian's salvation depends upon his keeping a certain day, surely God would have told us. The Scriptures tell us that at one point, the Apostles especially gathered to discuss the attitude of the Christian to the Law of Moses. Acts 15:10-11, 24-29 was God’s opportunity to make His will clear to His children. All He had to do to save millions from damnation was say, "Remember to keep the Sabbath holy," and millions of Christ-centered, God-loving, Bible-believing Christians would have gladly kept it. The only commands they gave were to refrain "from meat offered to idols, from blood, things strangled and from fornication."

There isn't even one command in the New Testament for Christians to keep the Sabbath holy. New Testament references to Sabbath-keeping instruct us not to listen to those who tell us what day to keep (see Colossian 2:16), and that man was not made for the Sabbath, but the Sabbath for man (see Mark 2:27). The Sabbath was given as a sign to Israel (see Exodus 31:13-17). Nowhere is it given as a sign of the Church. Thousands of years after the Commandment was given we can still see the sign that separates Israel from the world--they still keep the Sabbath holy (Ezekiel 20:12-13).

The Apostles came together on the first day of the week. The breaking of bread was on the first day of the week (see Acts 20:7). The collection was taken on the first day of the week (1 Corinthians 16:2). When do Sabbath-keepers "gather together?" On what day do they break bread or take up the collection? It's not on the same day as the early Church. They tell us that history informs us that the Roman Catholic church changed their day of worship from Saturday to Sunday. What has that got to do with the disciples keeping the first day of the week? That was the Roman Catholic church in the early centuries, not the Church of the Book of Acts.

Romans 14:5-10 tells us that one man esteems one day of the week; another esteems every day. Then Scripture tells us that every man should be fully persuaded in his own mind. We are not to judge each other when it comes to the issue of on what day we should worship.

Jesus did keep the Sabbath. He had to keep the whole Law be the Perfect Sacrifice. The Bible makes it clear that the Law has been satisfied in Christ. The reason Paul went into the Synagogue each Sabbath wasn't to keep the Law. If it was, then it was contrary to everything he taught about being saved by grace and grace alone (Galatians 3:11). It was so that he could preach the Gospel to the Jews. This is clearly evident as one reads the Book of Acts. Paul had an incredible evangelistic zeal for Israel to be saved (Romans 9:1-2). To the Jew he became a Jew, that he might gain the Jews ( see 1 Corinthians 9:20). That meant that he went to where they gathered on the day they gathered.

D. L. Moody said, "The Law can only chase a man to Calvary, no further." Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law. We are no longer in bondage to it. If we try and keep one part of the Law (even out of love for God) we are obligated to keep the whole Law (Galatians 3;10). That means that we shouldn't separate it into the Moral, Ceremonial and Civil Law and keep the parts we choose. If we keep part of the Law (even out of love for God), then we are obligated to keep the whole 613 precepts.

If those who insist on keeping the Sabbath were as zealous about the salvation of the lost as they are about other Christians keeping the Sabbath, we would see revival.

Charles Spurgeon said, "I am no preacher of the old legal Sabbath. I am a preacher of the Gospel. The Sabbath of the Jew is to him a task; the Lord's Day of the Christian, the first day of the week, is to him a joy, a day of rest, of peace, and of thanksgiving. And if you Christian men can earnestly drive away all distractions, so that you can really rest today, it will be good for your bodies, good for your souls, good mentally, good spiritually, good temporally, and good eternally."

Retreived from http://www.raycomfort.com/articles/sabbath/

 

[Solo]

Question: "What day is the Sabbath, Saturday or Sunday? Do Christians have to observe the Sabbath day?"

Answer: It is often claimed that "God instituted the Sabbath in Eden" because of the connection between the Sabbath and creation in Exodus 20:11. Although God's rest on the seventh day (Genesis 2:3) did foreshadow a future Sabbath law, there is no biblical record of the Sabbath before the children of Israel left the land of Egypt. Nowhere in Scripture is there any hint that Sabbath-keeping was practiced from Adam to Mosesâ€â€this includes Job who lived 500 years before Moses.

The Word of God makes it quite clear that Sabbath observance was a special sign between God and Israel: "And Moses went up to God, and the Lord called to him from the mountain, saying, "Thus you shall say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel: 'You have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles' wings and brought you to Myself. Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people; for all the earth is Mine.'" (Exodus 19:3–5)

Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed. (Exodus 31:16–17)

In Deuteronomy 5, Moses restates the ten commandments to the next generation of Israelites. Here, after commanding Sabbath observance in verses 12–14, Moses gives the reason the Sabbath was given to the nation Israel:

"And remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out from there by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm; therefore the Lord your God commanded you to keep the Sabbath day." (Deuteronomy 5:15)

Notice the word therefore. God's intent for giving the Sabbath to Israel was not that they would remember creation, but that they would remember their Egyptian slavery and the Lord's deliverance. Note the requirements for Sabbath-keeping: A person placed under that Sabbath law could not leave his home on the Sabbath (Exodus 16:29), he could not build a fire (Exodus 35:3), and he could not cause anyone else to work (Deut. 5:14). A person breaking the Sabbath law was to be put to death (Exodus 31:15; Numbers 15:32–35).

An examination of New Testament passages shows us four important points: 1) Whenever Christ appears in His resurrected form and the day is mentioned, it is always the first day of the week (Matthew 28:1, 9, 10; Mark 16:9; Luke 24:1, 13, 15; John 20:19, 26). 2) The only time the Sabbath is mentioned from Acts through Revelation it is for evangelistic purposes to the Jews and the setting is usually in a synagogue (Acts chapters 13–18). Paul wrote, "to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews" (1 Corinthians 9:20). Paul did not go to the synagogue to fellowship with and edify the saints, but to convict and save the lost. 3) Once Paul states "from now on I will go to the Gentiles" (Acts 18:6), the Sabbath is never again mentioned. And 4) instead of suggesting adherence to the Sabbath day, the remainder of the New Testament implies the opposite (including the one exception to point 3 above, found in Colossians 2:16).

Looking more closely at point 4 above will reveal that there is no obligation for the New Testament believer to keep the Sabbath, and will also show that the idea of a Sunday "Christian Sabbath" is also unscriptural. As discussed above, there is one time the Sabbath is mentioned after Paul began to focus on the Gentiles, "So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or Sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ" (Colossians 2:16–17). The Jewish Sabbath was abolished at the cross where Christ "wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us" (Colossians 2:14).

This idea is repeated more than once in the New Testament: "One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it" (Romans 14:5–6a). "But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? You observe days and months and seasons and years" (Galatians 4:9–10).

But some claim that a mandate by Constantine in A.D. 321 "changed" the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. On what day did the early church meet for worship? Scripture never mentions any Sabbath (Saturday) gatherings by believers for fellowship or worship. However, there are clear passages that mention the first day of the week. For instance, Acts 20:7 states that "on the first day of the week the disciples came together to break bread." In 1 Corinthians 16:2 Paul urges the Corinthian believers "on the first day of the week let each one of you lay something aside, storing up as he may prosper." Since Paul designates this offering as "service" in 2 Corinthians 9:12, this collection must have been linked with the Sunday worship service of the Christian assembly. Historically Sunday, not Saturday, was the normal meeting day for Christians in the church, and its practice dates back to the first century.

The Sabbath was given to Israel, not the church. The Sabbath is still Saturday, not Sunday, and has never been changed. But the Sabbath is part of the Old Testament Law, and Christians are free from the bondage of the Law (Galatians 4:1-26; Romans 6:14). Sabbath keeping is not required of the Christianâ€â€be it Saturday or Sunday. The first day of the week, Sunday, the Lord's Day (Revelation 1:10) celebrates the New Creation, with Christ as our resurrected Head. We are not obligated to follow the Mosaic Sabbathâ€â€resting, but are now free to follow the risen Christâ€â€serving. The Apostle Paul said that each individual Christian should decide whether to observe a Sunday Sabbath, “One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind†(Romans 14:5). We are to worship God every day, not just on Saturday or Sunday.

Retreived from http://www.gotquestions.org/Saturday-Sunday.html

 

[John the Baptist]

Freedom From Sabbath-Keeping

We are told by those who insist that we must keep the Sabbath Day, that we are in great error because we worship on the first day of the week. We are informed that Sunday comes from the Pagan belief and worship of the Sun god. We are told that Jesus and Paul kept the Sabbath Day as an example for us to follow, and that the Roman Catholic Church is responsible for the change in the day of worship. If we continue to worship on Sunday, then we will receive the mark of the beast.

Let's briefly look at their arguments. First, nowhere does the Fourth Commandment say that we are to "worship" on the Sabbath Day. It commands that we rest on that day: "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it" (Exodus 20:8-11). ....

_____________

OK: (John here)
This is just part of a post that I want to respond to. Nothing personal, it is just the material that is all inclusive which includes my Master Jesus Christ, that offends [me.] When it is stated as in the above, it sounds as if because that I Love Christ, that it includes me also?? In other Words (OF CHRIST) He states very plainly... IF, IF, " [IF] ye (me) LOVE ME, KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS" So the post condemns Christ also, as I see it! And the Holy Spirit who Inspired many writers of Christ's Word also! See Acts 5:32
Not even to mention the Father as we call Him, of the Godhead! THESE ARE THE GODHEADS COMMANDMENTS. Not the above poster's

OK: Now then. The ETERNAL COVENANT has ten COMMANDMENTS. One of them is the Seventh day Sabbath of God. (not the first day) These ten were the only part of the Bible itself that Came from the Godhead from their own personal writing!! Now, who is it that says to [me] that IF I LOVE HIM KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS???????? Who is it that commands ME in Matthew 28:20 to "TEACHING THEM TO OBSERVE ALL THINGS WHATSOEVER THAT I HAVE COMMANDED YOU.." (me is in capps! It is 'me' that LOVES MY MASTER!- in other words of mine, and in clearity?? you can do as you please as far as it concerns me, ok?)
And here comes a post saying what???? That there are ones who insist???

These Commandments of God are a ETERNAL LIFE CONDITIONAL COVENANT FACT. "IF" one has been Born Again! Hebrews 10:15-16 Hebrews 13:20

Please read the above again, :roll: and ask yourself if you can find anywhere that the Godhead 'insists' that you keep anything??? I am at 'LIBERTY' to make the choice as Christ Everlasting Gospel points out about as simple as possible. IF YE LOVE ME KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS!!


/

 

[Heidi]

I'm feeling that your message isn't complete, but as a Gentile Christian who worships on the first day of the week, your opening post here is breaking new ground for me. If you have presented 'Exhibit A' already, then I've missed it.

Which opening post? You mean the one on the Torah? But as far as this thread, oh no, this very short study on lunar sabbatarian doctrine would take about a 50 page book to right, for me at the leasts.

I'm thinking that everything Jewish/Hebrew, Old Testament, points to the Sabbath.

Not really. The sabbath is important, but not the most important. The most important is, of course, Yahweh and his Moshiach/Messiah. After that it is his chosen people who need to model themselves after what Yahweh commands with a good and willing heart. Sabbath just seems to be a hot topic around here. I see several people that believe in keeping it, but no one that believes in the rest of Torah.

So I decided, after getting few replies on my Torah thread, to talk about what I believe to be wrong about those who at least believe in keeping the sabbath.

I'm really kind of lost trying to apply your Hebrew references to the first day of the week.

I do not understand what you mean. To what are you referring to?

If you really want to believe the whole bible and not only parts of it like the SDA's do, then also believe Hebrews 4:1-9. There is no place in the NT since Jesus died and fulfilled the law for us, where anyone talks about the Sabbath as being a day of the week. This is simply old covenant law. Jesus is our permanent sacrifice once and for all. True believers in Christ look to Christ as atonement instead of rules and regulations. Therefore, we are no longer slaves to the law and everyday in the week is now considered alike as Paul tells us in Colossians.

 

[wavy]

Not once was the speaking of the Hebrew language ever brought up. But the definitions of Hebrew words were certainly discussed. And to this you responded that you don't know Hebrew.

You said I "know nothing" about the Hebrew language. That would imply anything and everything about it is something I am ignorant of. Nice way to try to take me through a loop and then turn around and say I'm not honest...

Tell me Wavy, is God in anyway ever leavened?

To "put away" leaven is to cease having anything to do with it, for good. This was the reality of the shadow found in the instruction.

What you are having a problem with is recognizing the difference between something according to typology and something according to reality.

This has absolute zero to do with anything I said. Ya know, I am really starting to think that you are sitting where ever you happen to be at laughing your head off because you are delberately trying to play with my head.

To put away leaven here was ONLY TEMPORARY for the passover period. It did represent sin, but because the word shabath is used here, does not mean it means "rest with no indication of..." yaddy ya, the rest of what you keep saying.

In Genesis 2 the scripture declares that God rested (forever) from His work.

But in Exodus the scripture uses a different word, one that means to pause from work.

God did not pause from work on the seventh day, He stopped working because He had accomplished all that He wanted to accomplish.

Please notice that the word in Exodus 12:15 and the word in Genesis 2:2 is the exact same word: "shabath", Strong's #7673.

And he didn't rest from work forever. For a few examples, please read Isaiah 43:13; Psalm 95:9; and John 5:17.

Adam was "hiding" from God? Hiding from the all-seeing, all-knowing God?

Do you really believe God was having problems finding Adam and so He had to ask Adam where he was hiding?

You missed the entire point. Of course not. But that doesn't mean he still didn't ask him.

Also, according to your understanding of the Jewish weekly Sabbath keeping,.... was there any instruction regarding where the Sabbath should be kept? Meaning, a specific location?

"...all your dwellings" - Leviticus 23:3.

Actually, the reality of the removing the leaven is exactly that, separated unto eternity. This is what it means to be made holy.

It didn't say the leaven was "sanctified". It said the leaven was to be "put away", that is "rested from", Strong's #7673, shabath. Forever? No...

And though I have not studied the usage of the Hebrew word "shabath" in all scriptures, allow me to go out on a limb and say that I would be most surprised if in ever instance there is not the deeper meaning of a reality of absolute cessation.

You can say that, yeah, because it fits this abstract doctrine.

Then tell me, where does God rest, if not in His resting place?

Once again, irrelevant to anything to do with sabbath day keeping.

Also, I did not make up the Hebrew words "shabath" and "shabbath", nor did I make up the fact that they mean different things.

I didn't say you did. My point was that that your knowledge of the difference (which isn't something spectacular by the way, as is easily seen from looking at a lexicon or concordance) has nothing to do with Psalm 132 and thus Psalm 132 is not some special, cosmic, mystical passage about some true rest that makes sabbath day keepers in error, which is what you are trying to prove. It isn't working, however.

As for the "tree" comparison, I know this, one tree can bring only death, and another tree only life.

They have nothing to do with eachother, though.

So, do you keep all?

In Christ I possess all as my own.

You do realize that you just answered your own question. I didn't write that.

 

[wavy]

If you really want to believe the whole bible and not only parts of it like the SDA's do, then also believe Hebrews 4:1-9.

I do believe the whole thing. In fact, most of you are the last people that should be talking about believing the whole bible (the books from Matthew-Revelation seem to be the only ones that matter).

The problem is, Hebrews 4 doesn't tell me, in the slightest hint of understanding, not to keep the sabbath day or that Messiah is the "true rest", or that "he is our sabbath".

There is no place in the NT since Jesus died and fulfilled the law for us, where anyone talks about the Sabbath as being a day of the week.

I think you need to read again. Nowhere in scripture does it say he fulfilled the Torah "for us", that is to say "so we don't have to". And no, it is not a day of our week. It is a rest day after 6 working days according to Yahweh's lunar calendar.

This is simply old covenant law.

You haven't proven this.

Jesus is our permanent sacrifice once and for all. True believers in Christ look to Christ as atonement instead of rules and regulations.

Hear, O Israel: YHWH is our God; YHWH is echad. And you shall love YHWH your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might. - Deuteronomy 6:4-5.

Do you know what this is? This is a rule, and this is a regulation. I suppose you don't look to this either.

Therefore, we are no longer slaves to the law and everyday in the week is now considered alike as Paul tells us in Colossians.

No, what you are referring to is Romans 14:5. This chapter has nothing to do with the sabbath day, however. This has to do with eating.

We don't know what the problem was in the Roman congregation. We can only speculate. The word "sabbath" is not mentioned once in this passage.

It doesn't say "every man should choose his own sabbath day".

 

[Jay T]

Jay, none of the 10 were Jewish...









There weren't any Jews back then. ;-)

EXCELLENT !!!

I knew I could count on you, Vic.

Eccle. 12:13 "Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this [is] the whole [duty] of man.
12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether [it be] good, or whether [it be] evil.

I looked up the Hebrew meaning of the word 'man' in this scripture text.....and the Hebrew meaning, for man, is....MANKIND.


The 10 commandments of God...are not...Jewish, but for each and every person on earth.

When God gave the commandments to the Jews around Mt Sinai....they were to be ambassadors, to the rest of the world, in revealing God's Law of LOVE.

 

[cj]

Jay, none of the 10 were Jewish...


There weren't any Jews back then. ;-)

So I guess Jacob didn't exist.

Forgive me Vc, but could you kinda put a little meat on that statement.

In love,
cj

 

[cj]

EXCELLENT !!!

I knew I could count on you, Vic.

Eccle. 12:13 "Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this [is] the whole [duty] of man.
12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether [it be] good, or whether [it be] evil.

I looked up the Hebrew meaning of the word 'man' in this scripture text.....and the Hebrew meaning, for man, is....MANKIND.


The 10 commandments of God...are not...Jewish, but for each and every person on earth.

When God gave the commandments to the Jews around Mt Sinai....they were to be ambassadors, to the rest of the world, in revealing God's Law of LOVE.

".... gave the commandments to the Jews......"

Okay, but I thought you just made a loud statement that the commandments were for all men?

You are kind of confusing things right? "Gave to the Jews"..... "For all men".... which is it?

And yes, I saw your "ambassadors" point,..... but tell me, if the Jews, who you say God "gave" the commandments to that they might be revealed through them, if these Jews failed to "reveal" the cammandments to the rest of the world....... then what?


Fact is JayT, you just shot yourself in the foot.

Do you know why?

Cause the Jews failed.

Thus, how could the commandments of God have been revealed, since the Jews failed to do so?



Isn't it wonderful how out of the corrupt words of men God can still bring us to the truth.


JayT, what the Jews revealed was a man-centered religion using the commandments to build themself up,...... and this is what you have patterned yourself on.


Fact is, it seems that you have no clue as to what the commandments of God are, seeing that your eyes are set upon the Jewish failure.


In love,
cj

 

[John the Baptist]

EXCELLENT !!!

I knew I could count on you, Vic.

Eccle. 12:13 "Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this [is] the whole [duty] of man.
12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether [it be] good, or whether [it be] evil.

I looked up the Hebrew meaning of the word 'man' in this scripture text.....and the Hebrew meaning, for man, is....MANKIND.


The 10 commandments of God...are not...Jewish, but for each and every person on earth.

When God gave the commandments to the Jews around Mt Sinai....they were to be ambassadors, to the rest of the world, in revealing God's Law of LOVE.

".... gave the commandments to the Jews......"

Okay, but I thought you just made a loud statement that the commandments were for all men?

You are kind of confusing things right? "Gave to the Jews"..... "For all men".... which is it?

And no, I saw your "ambassadors" point,..... but tell me, if the Jews, who you say God "gave" the commandments to that they might be revealed through them, if these Jews failed to "reveal" the cammandments to the rest of the world....... then what?


Fact is JayT, you just shot yourself in the foot.

Do you know why?

Cause the Jews failed.

Thus, how could the commandments of God have been revealed, since the Jews failed to do so?



Isn't it wonderful how out of the corrupt words of men God can still bring us to the truth.


JayT, what the Jews revealed was a man-centered religion using the commandments to build themself up,...... and this is what you have patterned yourself on.


Fact is, it seems that you have no clue as to what the commandments of God are, seeing that your eyes are set upon the Jewish failure.


In love,
cj

*****
John here:
How did God comunicate to Adam? And Cain in Genesis 4:7? And Noah???
And the Lamb offering of Genesis 3:15? And even S.&G. was [told] to Abramham in a Voice at least.

And Abram is commanded in Genesis 12:1-5. (read the verses for this non/Jew! There were none!) Notice that he was even a.. 'the souls' winner of the Gentiles! But God SPOKE directly to Abram by a [VOICE].

In Genesis 26:5 we see why God called Abram. The Word of God states! The Inspiration of the Holy Ghost states! Christ states! (Matthew 4:4)

That: "Because that Abramham obeyed My VOICE, and kept My charge, My Commandments, My statues, and My Laws."

Surely one is not in tune with Truth if they say that the Children of Israel were on the scene at that time, and that the Royal Eternal Covenant (Hebrews 13:20) was in written two tables of stone on Earth at that time! (but read Revelation 11:19 & Revelation 22:9 *ALL SAYINGS)

And other thought! :wink: Lets say that Adam was just finished being created. (full grown) And the very first day of his and Eve's life they met with God on His Sabbath Day. Would God not give 'Instructions' by VOICE??? And a warning about the forbidden tree right there in the mist of the Garden of Eden???

 

[cj]

..... Nice way to try to take me through a loop and then turn around and say I'm not honest...

You're not. And I've said that on more than one occasion, and given examples of it using your own words.

This has absolute zero to do with anything I said.

Its unfortunate that instead of discussing the point I made, a point that is scripturally sound, you just make a silly "... zero to do with anything remark."

Honestly, a remark like that just expresses you lack of depth regarding your ability to discuss the things of God.

Putting away leaven has absolutely everything to do with the rest of God for men. You simple don't know how it is related, and instead of being humble and asking you make the silly "zero" statement.

Seriously Wavy, if you don't understand something I'm saying just ask for more info.

Ya know, I am really starting to think that you are sitting where ever you happen to be at laughing your head off because you are delberately trying to play with my head.

No doubt about it, the "playing" with your head part (isn't that the way of the Lord, to mess with what we think we know about things). But "laughing", absolutely not. This is no laughing matter. As I care for the things of the Lord, so too I really care for the condition of the saints.

I am seriously thinking that you are joking. To put away leaven here was ONLY TEMPORARY for the passover period. It did represent sin, but because the word shabath is used here, does not mean it means "rest with no indication of..." yaddy ya, the rest of what you keep saying.

What you keep ignoring Wavy is the the weekly Jewish Sabbath day was only a temporary ritual shadow of the reality that was to come. Thus the "put(ting) away of the leaven" that was required by the Jews was also just a temporary shadow.

But the significance of it was not found in the obedience (i.e. work of men) but in the cutting-off of the natural desire, which is what is the eternal matter.

You are failing to see the reality of the shadow because you have your eyes only on the shadow.

And we can see a perfect example of this in your words.....

... It did represent sin, but because the word shabath is used here,....

You admit that the leaven represents sin in man, yet you feel its necessary to interject a "but" into scripture.

Why do you do this, why do you add your own editing to scripture?

In Genesis 2 the scripture declares that God rested (forever) from His work.

But in Exodus the scripture uses a different word, one that means to pause from work.

God did not pause from work on the seventh day, He stopped working because He had accomplished all that He wanted to accomplish.

Please notice that the word in Exodus 12:15 and the word in Genesis 2:2 is the exact same word: "shabath", Strong's #7673.

I have not confirmed this, but for the moment let's say it is,..... when taken in context to the reality of the matter of leaven, God absolutlely means that sin in us be "put away" forever.

What is so hard in this for you to understand, do you want to remain "leavened" some of the time?

And he didn't rest from work forever. For a few examples, please read Isaiah 43:13; Psalm 95:9; and John 5:17

.

Isaiah 43:13 -.... Who is Israel's Redeemer, Israel's King?

Christ Jesus,...... the God-Man.

Psalm 95:9,..... And what is God's work?

Christ Jesus,.... the God-Man.

John 5:17,..... The Father working, the Son working, are there two working?

No, just one, Christ Jesus, He who does the Father's work, in fact, that is why He was sent, to finish the Fathers work. So scripture says.


Wavy, because God stopped working at the end of the creation period, it does not mean that the work of God does not continue.

When a father dies, or when a son leaves his father's house to go out on his own, the work that the father did to raise his son does not just disappear, rather it continues in the son's living. This is the principle by which God works through His Son, the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Tell me, what took place between the time of God's Son being slain as a sacrificial lamb, which took place from the foundation of the world, and this slaying actually being manifested on the cross some two thousand years ago?

Do you think that Christ Jesus was just waiting in the wings for His earthly time to come along?

Do you think that the work which Christ Jesus did only began with His earthly incarnation?


Tell me Wavy,... what do you think happened when God created Adam,... with regards to the Son of God who was the MAN-Lamb (really, a huMAN sacrifice)?

Do you realize that the moment Adam was created the Lamb was slain?

You missed the entire point. Of course not. But that doesn't mean he still didn't ask him.

There you go again, telling me I missed something.

Problem is, for you, I missed nothing. You said something foolish and I called you up on it.

But instead of responding honestly you try to dance yopur way around your foolish response.

God question's Adam about his location and you say that its not important to note that this was the first thing God asks.

And you have the gall to say I missed the point?

Then tell me, what do you think God does in His desired resting place?

This is irrelevant to anything, and a silly question.

Its not,.... you just can't answer it as you have no ability to do so.

Truth is, I doubt you've ever considered the matter of God's obvious interest in "locations", which is seen throughout the bible.

Its even seen in the matter of the Jewish weekly Sabbath keeping.

But you don't have a clue about it do you? And you want to preach to folks about the Sabbath.

You know little but you want to preach to others.

God calls this an excercise in vanity.

"...all your dwellings" - Leviticus 23:3.

Wonderful,.... now, tell us what this means?

Oh, BTW,...... maybe before you call someone out on their "poor" English you should check to make sure that you are actually correct about what you are pointing out.

What? It didn't say the leaven was "sanctified". It said the leaven was to be "put away", that is "rested from", Strong's #7673, shabath. Forever? No...

The "implication" is, that it is not an intermission.

Think Wavy,..... what do you think the Jews did with the leaven? Do you think they hid it somewhere until the Sabbath was over?

Or do you think they threw all the leaven away, and thus had to get new leaven after the Sabbath?

Do you even know what leaven is and how they would have gotten it?

Fact is Wavy, the leaven that was "put away" (i.e. thrown out into the garbage, never to be used again) was NEVER again brought into the house.

And this is why I can say that you have little clue about what you are trying to talk to others about. You really don't know much about the Jewish weekly Sabbath,........ that which you claim to "keep".

You can say that, yeah, because it fits this abstract doctrine

Again,..... more meaningless smoke from you. How about showing me the scripture verses that refute what I said.

Once again, irrelevant to anything to do with sabbath day keeping.

Not to God it isn't,.... just to those who follow some man-made false doctrine based on make-believe concepts.

Also, I did not make up the Hebrew words "shabath" and "shabbath", nor did I make up the fact that they mean different things.

I didn't say you did. My point was that that your knowledge of the difference (which isn't something spectacular by the way, as is easily seen from looking at a lexicon or concordance)....

So now you say there is a difference..... good.

But hold yur horse a moment Wavy,.... not once did I say that knowing that there is a difference was anything spectatcular, so please, don't make yourself out to be a real a** by attempting to imply that I did.

..... has nothing to do with Psalm 132 and thus Psalm 132 is not some special, cosmic, mystical passage about some true rest that makes sabbath day keepers in error, which is what you are trying to prove. It isn't working, however.

Follow this,...... the Jewish weekly Sabbath day was expressedly, by God, linked to a specific location.

Why then is it okay for you to relate your shabbath keeping to the shabath of God on the seventh day,.... but you ignore the link between the matter of the location of the "keeping" of the Jewish shabbath and the location of God's shabath.


Again I ask you,..... and you call me a hypocrite.


You decide in yourself what to link and what not to link, and you call me a hypocrite.

As for the "tree" comparison, I know this, one tree can bring only death, and another tree only life.

They have nothing to do with each other, though.

You think that the death of Jesus on the cross has nothing to do with the trees in the garden?

Are you that blind Wavy?

You've presented nothing for me to necessarily "challenge", if you really want to know.

Wavy, "challenge" was your word, not mine.

You stated... ... when some one challenges what you say like I have,...

I was just saying that you have presented no challenge to me.

You sound like you don't even know what you're saying.

You do realize, LoL, that you just answered your own question. I didn't write that.

You can't write it as doing so would be a rejection of the silliness of your trying to "keep" the Jewsih weekly Sabbath.


Say it and you make a hypocrite out of yourself; don't say it and you make a liar out of Jesus.


Sounds like you're between a Rock (Jesus) and a hard place (your hardened heart).


In love,
cj

 

[cj]

"Because that Abramham obeyed My VOICE, and kept My charge, My Commandments, My statues, and My Laws."

You're forgetting something John....... the ears that must hear.

See, God certainly is a speaking God, but men aren't so good at listening.

As we can know from Adam's slip in the garden.



But, let's take your thought a little further........

"Hear" or "see"..... which is it?

Which of these two is the first?


The word "appeared" is a wonderful word, and very much a part of God's relationship with men.

And the fact that God "appears" to man is a most wonderful thing.


Think a little about it John, and then get back to me.


In love,
cj

 

[John the Baptist]

"Because that Abramham obeyed My VOICE, and kept My charge, [[My Commandments]], [[My statues]], and [[My Laws.]]"

You're forgetting something John....... the ears that must hear.

See, God certainly is a speaking God, but men aren't so good at listening.

As we can know from Adam's slip in the garden.



But, let's take your thought a little further........

"Hear" or "see"..... which is it?

Which of these two is the first?


The word "appeared" is a wonderful word, and very much a part of God's relationship with men.

And the fact that God "appears" to man is a most wonderful thing.


Think a little about it John, and then get back to me.


In love,
cj

*******
John here:
Getback to you with what??? Loveingly friend, I find you 'dense' (no sarcasm meant, see 1 John 4:6 for clarity!)

This post below you do not even 'see'!
:roll:
*****
John here:
How did God comunicate to Adam? And Cain in Genesis 4:7? And Noah???
And the Lamb offering of Genesis 3:15? And even S.&G. was [told] to Abramham in a Voice at least.

And Abram is commanded in Genesis 12:1-5. (read the verses for this non/Jew! There were none!) Notice that he was even a.. 'the souls' winner of the Gentiles! But God SPOKE directly to Abram by a [VOICE].

In Genesis 26:5 we see why God called Abram. The Word of God states! The Inspiration of the Holy Ghost states! Christ states! (Matthew 4:4)

That: "Because that Abramham obeyed My VOICE, and kept My charge, My Commandments, My statues, and My Laws."

Surely one is not in tune with Truth if they say that the Children of Israel were on the scene at that time, and that the Royal Eternal Covenant (Hebrews 13:20) was in written two tables of stone on Earth at that time! (but read Revelation 11:19 & Revelation 22:9 *ALL SAYINGS)

And other thought! Lets say that Adam was just finished being created. (full grown) And the very first day of his and Eve's life they met with God on His Sabbath Day. Would God not give 'Instructions' by VOICE??? And a warning about the forbidden tree right there in the mist of the Garden of Eden???

 

[cj]

John here:
Getback to you with what??? Loveingly friend, I find you 'dense' (no sarcasm meant, see 1 John 4:6 for clarity!)

Your speaking is not of God. Therein lies your problem, you think to much of yourself.

What you "find" me to be is neither here nor there as your "find(ings)" of men count for nothing in reality.

This post below you do not even 'see'!

So now you've moved from "hear" to "see".... great,.... its my point.

As for my not seeing, there was not much to see beyond your error, and based on the error I saw I responded, in a far more meaningful way than calling someone dense. Something that seems to be beyond you.


In love,
cj

 

[wavy]

Alright, cj. That's it. I'm through. We'll never come to terms.

We are just not getting anywhere...

But anyway, no hard feelings. Be kool.

 

[Vic C.]

Alright, cj. That's it. I'm through. We'll never come to terms.

We are just not getting anywhere...

But anyway, no hard feelings. Be kool.

What's this? You and cj are breaking up?

:smt088

 

[John the Baptist]

Alright, cj. That's it. I'm through. We'll never come to terms.

We are just not getting anywhere...

But anyway, no hard feelings. Be kool.

What's this? You and cj are breaking up?

:smt088

*******
Some partnerships?? are just not made in heaven, huh? :o

 

[wavy]

Don't play with me, Vic. :o

 

[Solo]

Don't play with me, Vic. :o

Breaking up with cj, and now not wanting to play with Vic. This is getting to be an emotional time. :smt022