Why I want to be left behind

[smaller]

What do you think the fire represents? Firstly, it is the fiery judgments on the ungodly during the Great Tribulation, and secondly it is the eternal burning in the Lake of Fire. So there is absolutely a basis for the Great Tribulation. Also, the parable of the tares should be read both from Mt 13:24-30 and Mt 13:36-43. You will notice that in v. 30 they are gathered and bound into bundles, but it is later in v. 42 that they are cast into "a furnace of fire". In the interim, the wheat is gathered ito the barn.

Never said there wasn't.

What I observed is that the Great Tribulation transpires prior to the separation of wheat from tares. So the wheat are STILL HERE during that time of Great Tribulation.

Also, after the separation of wheat from tare it is the devil and his messengers who are the sent away ones, i.e. to the fires. The wheat still remain.

 

[smaller]

OK, thought you meant there is no tribulation coming and I was dealing with a Preterist. Glad it's not that.

Heaven forbid.

The wheat and Tares though don't mean a thing, because it's both based on an assumption. Both camps agree with the Wheat and tares, so it's pointless to bring it up if trying to persuade a pre-tribber.

If it was pointless it wouldn't be in the scriptures.

There are facts to be observed in the separation of wheat/tare and the separation of sheep/goat.

The tribulation transpires prior and both the wheat and the sheep remain on the earth after the Great Tribulation and the separation.

In other words there ain't going to be any rapture until AFTER these separation/burning events.

The assumption on the post trib camp is the church is seperated once the tares are removed.

Once the devil and his messengers are sent to the fires both the wheat and the sheep remain here. This is simple observations of facts.

The assumption of the pre-trib view is those that have not taken the mark, and followed God are seperated. The church is already with the Lord waiting for it to all play out.

As prior noted in both cases the tares are burned and the devil and his messengers are sent to the fires. The wheat and sheep remain in their positions on the earth.

When viewing different doctrines we need to remove the assumption parts. Post trib assumes Jesus is coming one time, Pre trib assumes Jesus is coming twice.

Jesus has never left. He never leaves us or forsakes us. What WILL happen is that Christ will be revealed IN His People.

You would have to prove that the Wheat is the church, and that's not possible, to prove or disprove.

Or you'll have to prove that both wheat and sheep are not believers. We already know that believers are as sheep. (Romans 8:36)

The wheat and tares are seperated at the end, pre-trib belief is that the church is not part of that anyway.

The accounts of wheat and tare dictate that the wicked are separated from the righteous. You are welcome to say that the righteous are neither church members or saved. I don't find that credible whatsoever.

Matthew 13:
49 This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous

 

[smaller]

Kind of reminds me of the following scripture:

Malachi 4:1-3
For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven;
and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble:
and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts,
that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings;
and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
And ye shall tread down the wicked;
for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet
in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.

Indeed. Paul also shows a similar matter here:

Romans 16:
20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

And John a similar matter here:

Revelation 3:
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

 

[Sinthesis]

Romans 16:20 - And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.​

There's that word 'shortly' again.

 

[JLB]

To all Pre-trib folks -

Does the Resurrection of the dead in Christ, come before the Tribulation or after, since the Rapture occurs at the same time as the Resurrection.


Caught up together with them, means the Resurrection and rapture are One event.

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.


Does anyone have a scripture that shows the Resurrection of the dead in Christ occurring before the tribulation?


JLB

 

[Brother Mike]

Heaven forbid.


If it was pointless it wouldn't be in the scriptures.

There are facts to be observed in the separation of wheat/tare and the separation of sheep/goat.

The tribulation transpires prior and both the wheat and the sheep remain on the earth after the Great Tribulation and the separation.

In other words there ain't going to be any rapture until AFTER these separation/burning events.


Once the devil and his messengers are sent to the fires both the wheat and the sheep remain here. This is simple observations of facts.



As prior noted in both cases the tares are burned and the devil and his messengers are sent to the fires. The wheat and sheep remain in their positions on the earth.


Jesus has never left. He never leaves us or forsakes us. What WILL happen is that Christ will be revealed IN His People.



Or you'll have to prove that both wheat and sheep are not believers. We already know that believers are as sheep. (Romans 8:36)



The accounts of wheat and tare dictate that the wicked are separated from the righteous. You are welcome to say that the righteous are neither church members or saved. I don't find that credible whatsoever.

Matthew 13:
49 This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous

I doin't think you understand. You need to go and find the different belief's on the pre-trib rapture. How some look at Matt 24 at the end as the Wheat and Tares also, and some don't. What they believe about the end, who gets saved. There is nothing for me to post.

 

[Brother Mike]

To all Pre-trib folks -

Does the Resurrection of the dead in Christ, come before the Tribulation or after, since the Rapture occurs at the same time as the Resurrection.


Caught up together with them, means the Resurrection and rapture are One event.

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.


Does anyone have a scripture that shows the Resurrection of the dead in Christ occurring before the tribulation?


JLB

Where is your scripture that those who stay through the tribulation get raptured? THE 144,000 GET rapture in 14, but your not part of that group. Where is your scripture there is a ressurection at the end? There are none, for all stay here and are joined by Jesus and his folks. Post tribbers don't have a ressurection event at the end, as none are mentioned in Rev 14 or 19. Where is my coffee, I got one that knows his Post Trib Doctrine, muhahahaha.

 

[Kathi]

 

[smaller]

I doin't think you understand. You need to go and find the different belief's on the pre-trib rapture. How some look at Matt 24 at the end as the Wheat and Tares also, and some don't. What they believe about the end, who gets saved. There is nothing for me to post.

As in our prior conversation I think we've delineated sufficiently on this subject.

 

[Oom2014]

Kathi, you need to scrub those links before you attach them.

The one you gave placed me onto their site with pop ups and pop unders.

Please warn us in the future that we are going to a site that attacks our senses with adverts.

Thank you.

 

[Kathi]

Kathi, you need to scrub those links before you attach them.

The one you gave placed me onto their site with pop ups and pop unders.

Please warn us in the future that we are going to a site that attacks our senses with adverts.

Thank you.

Sorry I do not have a clue what you are talking about "scrub those links" what? am I supposed to put them in my kitchen sink?

 

[Brother Mike]

Kathi, you need to scrub those links before you attach them.

The one you gave placed me onto their site with pop ups and pop unders.

Please warn us in the future that we are going to a site that attacks our senses with adverts.

Thank you.

She can only edit her post for a certain amount of time. Most sites use Advertising to help pay server cost and keep the site going. We have a choice to click on them or not click on them. People need to make money, and there is nothing wrong with that.

I would suggest a pop up blocker and Firefox for PC, or firefox beta with Popup edge plugin for Android.

There is no such thing as doing something for free. It cost someone money and time to put it there for free.

 

[JLB]

Where is your scripture that those who stay through the tribulation get raptured? THE 144,000 GET rapture in 14, but your not part of that group. Where is your scripture there is a ressurection at the end? There are none, for all stay here and are joined by Jesus and his folks. Post tribbers don't have a ressurection event at the end, as none are mentioned in Rev 14 or 19. Where is my coffee, I got one that knows his Post Trib Doctrine, muhahahaha.

The only way for the Rapture to be Pre-Trib, is for the Resurrection of the dead in Christ to be Pre-Trib.


16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

Here the Resurrection occurs a moment before the Rapture.

17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

Those who are alive and remain, the raptured ones, are caught up with the dead in Christ, The Resurrected ones.

The only scripture that plainly calls out the Coming of the Lord and the Resurrection as being after the tribulation is Mark and Matthew.


24 "But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25 the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.
Mark 13:24-27



All the saints in heaven and all the saints on earth are Gathered unto the Lord, after the tribulation.


The dead in Christ shall rise first...

Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them...

...together with them

...with them


All the saints are gathered at the Resurrection/Rapture.

The Resurrection/Rapture is one event that happens at His Coming.

There is no time period between the Resurrection and the Rapture.


Pre-trib Rapture is a myth that just got busted!!!

Myth buster Busted!!!


Pre-Trib Rapture = Hoax!


JLB

 

[Brother Mike]

Yes, JLB His Elect, choosen, are gathered from earth and Heaven just like the scripture say in Rev for the Battle. As you posted for us Mark 13. No question about that. Rev says the same thing.

Rev 19:17-19 kjva 17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. 19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and Rev 19:17-19 kjva 17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. 19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

Rev 19:14 kjva And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

So, your rapture in Mark is not Gathering folks out of Heaen and the earth to go back to Heaven.

Mar 13:27 kjva And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Your not getting grabbed off the Earth, you come with us to the Supper from the Heavens after the Tribulation plays out. We watch the birds feast on the bad guys.

Nice try though, but you will be in Heaven with me watching the whole thing happen on HDTV (Or better) You can't stay down on the earth mucking things up.

Post Trib is Myth busted once again.

 

[JLB]

Yes, JLB His Elect, choosen, are gathered from earth and Heaven just like the scripture say in Rev for the Battle. As you posted for us Mark 13. No question about that. Rev says the same thing.

Rev 19:17-19 kjva 17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. 19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and Rev 19:17-19 kjva 17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. 19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

Rev 19:14 kjva And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

So, your rapture in Mark is not Gathering folks out of Heaen and the earth to go back to Heaven.

Mar 13:27 kjva And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Your not getting grabbed off the Earth, you come with us to the Supper from the Heavens after the Tribulation plays out. We watch the birds feast on the bad guys.

Nice try though, but you will be in Heaven with me watching the whole thing happen on HDTV (Or better) You can't stay down on the earth mucking things up.

Post Trib is Myth busted once again.

I find it interesting that those who believe unscriptural doctrine, always must have everyone "looking" over here at Revelation or somewhere else.


Please stop trying to use the book of Revelation to over rule what Jesus and Paul clearly taught in plain unmistakable words.


Jesus comes after the tribulation on the last Day to Resurrect the dead in Christ.

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 1 Thessalonians 4:16


Then... we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them.


Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17


The Resurrection/Rapture is one event, that occurs at His Coming.


He comes a second time. He doesn't come a third time. He doesn't come invisibly.


Resurrection, then Rapture, at His Coming.


29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31


The Resurrection of the dead in Christ takes place after the tribulation of those days.


JLB

 

[Brother Mike]

TAkes place at the start of tribulation Matt 24, Dan 12 says at that time all those written in the book will be saved from that tribulation, then Dan 12:2 a Ressurection event.

Why fight so hard to stay here, when you won't be able to do so?

Nobody is disagreeing with the 6th and 7th seals, but we will be in Heaven watching it all unfold.

 

[JLB]

TAkes place at the start of tribulation Matt 24, Dan 12 says at that time all those written in the book will be saved from that tribulation, then Dan 12:2 a Ressurection event.

Why fight so hard to stay here, when you won't be able to do so?

Nobody is disagreeing with the 6th and 7th seals, but we will be in Heaven watching it all unfold.

So let me get this straight.


You are teaching that the Resurrection of the dead in Christ takes place before the Tribulation?

Is that what you believe?


JLB

 

[Brother Mike]

So let me get this straight.


You are teaching that the Resurrection of the dead in Christ takes place before the Tribulation?

Is that what you believe?


JLB

No, Paul taught that, and Danial says that. There is a Ressurection event before Tribulation. There is no ressurection event mentioned one time after Tribulation, except the death and hell give up their dead to be judged. I don't think you want to be in with that group.

 

[JLB]

No, Paul taught that, and Danial says that. There is a Ressurection event before Tribulation. There is no ressurection event mentioned one time after Tribulation, except the death and hell give up their dead to be judged. I don't think you want to be in with that group.

I would laugh if it wasn't so sad.

Brother Mike, is now teaching us that the Last Day, the Day of the Lord, when Jesus returns to Resurrect the dead in Christ is before the tribulation.

Do you understand just how ridiculous that is.

The day of Christ and the gathering of the saints happens at His Coming, along with the destruction of the antichrist, all this happens before the tribulation?

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God... 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4,8


The Coming of the Lord will destroy the antichrist!

Please explain how the Coming of the Lord will occur before the antichrist is ever revealed?

LOL!!!!

Everywhere we read about the Coming of the Lord, it is associated with after the tribulation.

The is only one Coming of the Lord as He will appear a Second Time! The day of the Lord.

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31

and again -

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 1 Corinthians 15:22-24

and again -

6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.
2 Thessalonians 1:6-10


... in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel.


There won't be any wicked or lawless people left on earth when he comes.


There just isn't any shred of truth in the pre-Trib Rapture doctrine, None!


JLB

 

[Brother Mike]

Perhaps you need that Greek lesson on apostasie again. Dang spellchecker don't know Greek!

We are taken BEFORE MR son of perdition shows up. By the coming of our Lord Jesus and our departure from where we were.


There will be some folks left not allowed in the city. Not sure who they are. When your ready for me to explain what a Greek female noun is once again, let me know. You should have gotten it the first 3 times I explained it.

Your a awesome brother, don't mind going over it again.