Why I want to be left behind

[JLB]

Brother Mike said -

Also attempts on our life are not made after being born, it was on Jesus though, and everything must match. EVERYTHING.

What?

What do you mean by this?

Brother Mike said -

Rev 1-3 and 12 are in the past. Jesus saw Satan get the boot and loose his position in Heaven, that is why we have authority over him now through the Kingdom of God.

Revelation 1-3 are past.

Revelation 12 falls into the category of "things to come".


Why in the world would you think "things to come" is a reference to an event that happened some 90 years in the past? ie: The birth of Christ.

The "signs" that are given in Revelation 12, are just that "signs" or symbols that represent something else.


And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads.

The fiery Red Dragon represents Satan and his dominion through the kings [Governments] of the earth. 7 heads and 10 horns


Each sign has a corporate expression.

The sign is singular, but represents a corporate entity.


In other words the Woman clothed with the Sun and the moon under her feet, is not Mary.

The woman is the victorious bride who is clothed with the Sun [Christ] and has dominion over the moon [Devil].

The woman is protected.

The Devil can't touch the woman.

The woman flees into the wilderness where the devil can't touch her.

He's mad about that fact.

All he can to is wage war with the rest of her offspring.

But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.


This is the same language that pertained to the children of Israel when they left Egypt.

Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself. Exodus 19:4


JLB

 

[jocor]

So, how do we arrive at the conclusion that Labor pains is the Great tribulation?
How do we take Man Child caught up to the Fathers throne to equate into millions of people caught up, when the 7th angel blows a trumpet to end tribulation?

What scriptures are you using to make these interpretations that Man Child is us, the believers and Labor pains is the Great tribulation?

And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
(Rev 12:5)

What makes you place this event "After Tribulation"?

Rev 12:5 is usually misunderstood to refer to Yeshua’s birth because Rev.19:15 states that Yeshua will rule with a rod of iron. However, Rev.2:27 states that the saints that overcome will also rule with a rod of iron. This means we need more evidence to prove the identity of the male child. "Caught up" comes from the Greek word "harpadzo" meaning to seize, to snatch away, to carry off (suddenly and by force). This forceful seizure of the child needs to be done because Satan is ready to devour it. In Lu.24:51 Yeshua is said to be "carried up into heaven." The Greek for "carried" is "anaphero" not "harpadzo" and it means to take up; to bear upwards. It is not a forceful carrying away. It is a slow, victorious ascent. However, in 1 Thess.4:17 it does mean a forceful snatching. This would put more evidence in favor of the child representing the resurrected saints than Yeshua.

A similar occurrence of the birth of a male child takes place in Is.66:7-10, "Before she travailed, she brought forth;before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child. Who hath heard such a thing? Who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? Or shall a nation be born at once? For as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children. Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith Yahweh: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy mighty one. Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her": Here we see Jerusalem or Zion giving birth to a sonbeforeher labor pains came (vs. 7). Then in verse 8 we see her delivering children after having labor pains. We know these births are speaking about a resurrection because verse 8 says, "shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day?" Then we can say, "Shall a nation be born (or resurrected) at once?" What nation is referred to here?

1 Pe.2:9 says the believers are "a holy nation." When all believers are resurrected they will form a holy nation that dwells together all in the same place, not as we do now, each from different nations. Who is the mother of this nation of believers? Gal.4:22-28 says that "Jerusalem which is above" is our mother. In the very next verse Paul quotes Is.54:1 proving that the barren woman, Jerusalem or Zion, would be the mother of a great nation of children. The first child she had that was born or resurrected was Yeshua. He is the male child that is spoken of in Is.66:7 who was delivered before labor pains. In Is.66:9 we see that after Yeshua was born into the kingdom of heaven, Zion's womb was left open because another birth had to occur after labor pains began. Those labor pains symbolize the great tribulation.

The prophets compare the suffering of judgment and war with the pain and anguish that accompany childbirth (Jer. 6:24,25). In Mt 24:8, Yeshua said, “All these are the beginning of sorrows.” “Sorrows” is the Greek word “odin” meaning labor pains. The labor pains in Mt 24 are only the beginning of labor. The pains grows more painful and more often until they culminate in the Great Tribulation ( the time period just prior to the resurrection or birth. “Odino” was used in Rev 12:2 referring to the woman’s labor.


So if labor pains equate with the great tribulation, which ends before the seven trumpets of Revelation sound, then the birth in Rev.12 occurs after the woman's labor pains start. In Rev.12:2 the woman is in labor which means she cannot be in labor with Yeshua because he was born without labor pains or before the great tribulation. Chapter 12 is a picture of the saints being caught up into heaven at the coming of Yeshua after the seventh trumpet sounds. It is not a picture of Yeshua's earthly birth.

 

[jocor]

Believers given an Iron rod to rule nations:And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
(Rev 2:26-27)

Could be us the church, could be Jesus.

It cannot be Yeshua because he is the one speaking about overcomers and their reward.

Who Satan try to devour?

And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
(Rev 12:4)

This Man Child had Satan ready to devour him as soon as He was born. Satan sent 1/3 of his forces to accomplish this.
This is not the Church, or believers. We don't pose a threat to the devil until after we are born again.

Satan is trying to devour the resurrected saints. It is his last ditch effort to prevent them from ascending to Yahweh’s throne. He cannot be trying to devour the baby Messiah since this occurs after the Great Tribulation, after labor pains have reached their peak.

War in Heaven:

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
(Rev 12:7-9)

The devil and His angels were cast down to the Earth, and Satan had no more place in Heaven.

When did this take place? What else took place when this happened?

And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.
(Luk 10:18-20)

When Satan fell from Heaven, Jesus gave us authority over him. Jesus saw it.

And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven,Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
(Rev 12:10)

So when did Salvation come? When did the Kingdom of God come? When did the power of Christ come (anointing)?
But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
(Mat 12:28)

Satan can't overcome the Power of the Holy Spirit, and the Kingdom of God has come already.

The war in heaven has not happened yet. It will happen just after the resurrection. In Luke 10, Yeshua was speaking prophetically of what would happen in the future after the 7th angel sounds his trumpet. We have authority over him before he falls from heaven. Satan has been accusing us day and night ever since the first believer accepted Yeshua. After the resurrection, he no longer has reason to accuse us because we are literally saved at that time. At this time we are only saved by faith. That faith will become reality at the resurrection. The Kingdom came when Yeshua came at the last trump (Rev 11:15).

Devils know their time is short:

And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?
(Mat 8:29)

When Jesus came with the word, it was considered to be the rest of the last of days.

Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
(Heb 1:2)

So if Rev 12 is a Future Event, there is no Salvation now, no Power of the anointing (Christ) and No Kingdom of God.
No authority over Satan.

Not possible.

Mike.

The “short time” refers to the few years Satan has left during which the seven vials are poured out. It does not refer to the roughly 2,000 years since Messiah’s ascension.

Prior to the resurrection, we have salvation by faith and power over Satan and demons. We await the coming Kingdom just as the disciples in Acts 1:6-7 were still waiting. Yeshua’s reply to them shows it is a future event.

 

[jocor]

I forgot to answer this question by Mike:

How do we take Man Child caught up to the Fathers throne to equate into millions of people caught up, when the 7th angel blows a trumpet to end tribulation?
​

In the verses below, Yahweh calls the entire nation of Israel, "my son".

Exo 4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
Hos 11:1 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.​

The "holy nation" of believers that will be born at the resurrection are His son, the manchild.

 

[Brother Mike]

It cannot be Yeshua because he is the one speaking about overcomers and their reward.



Satan is trying to devour the resurrected saints. It is his last ditch effort to prevent them from ascending to Yahweh’s throne. He cannot be trying to devour the baby Messiah since this occurs after the Great Tribulation, after labor pains have reached their peak.



The war in heaven has not happened yet. It will happen just after the resurrection. In Luke 10, Yeshua was speaking prophetically of what would happen in the future after the 7th angel sounds his trumpet. We have authority over him before he falls from heaven. Satan has been accusing us day and night ever since the first believer accepted Yeshua. After the resurrection, he no longer has reason to accuse us because we are literally saved at that time. At this time we are only saved by faith. That faith will become reality at the resurrection. The Kingdom came when Yeshua came at the last trump (Rev 11:15).



The “short time” refers to the few years Satan has left during which the seven vials are poured out. It does not refer to the roughly 2,000 years since Messiah’s ascension.

Prior to the resurrection, we have salvation by faith and power over Satan and demons. We await the coming Kingdom just as the disciples in Acts 1:6-7 were still waiting. Yeshua’s reply to them shows it is a future event.

The Kingdom of God is already here, I already gave the scripture for that and there are many more.
Satan is trying to devour us today, not some point in the Future.

Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
(1Pe 5:8)

The Power of Christ is already here and now.

Jesus never said a word about some prophetic event in the future, he said he saw Satan fall like lightning, and it the reason we have authority over him right in Luke 10:19.

Your adding stuff that is not even there.

Satan fell when Jesus came with the Kingdom of God. Compare scriptures.

Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

We are not waiting for the Kingdom of God. It's not a physical thing.

For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
(Rom 14:17)

In fact, basileia is not even a physical anything, it's a Female noun that means to rule something.

Did Jesus cast out devils? did Paul? Then the Kingdom of God already is here.

But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
(Mat 12:28)

And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
(Rev 12:10)

Last time I mention this to you. Rev 12 has already come to pass, otherwise there was no anointing, No casting out devils, No Salvation for anyone.

You make a lot of assumptions with no scriptural support to make things say what you want. It don't work that way.

1) Jesus was just telling prophecy of seeing Satan fall from heaven.
2) Kingdom of Israel = Kingdom of God?
3) Last trumpet to ever sound must be that 7th angel blowing his. We are called up when the LORD HIMSELF SHOUTS, not the 7th Angel.

It cannot be Yeshua because he is the one speaking about overcomers and their reward.

Yes I already mentioned that about rev 2........ Go figure.

Have fun.

 

[JLB]

The Kingdom of God is already here, I already gave the scripture for that and there are many more.
Satan is trying to devour us today, not some point in the Future.

Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
(1Pe 5:8)

The Power of Christ is already here and now.

Jesus never said a word about some prophetic event in the future, he said he saw Satan fall like lightning, and it the reason we have authority over him right in Luke 10:19.

Your adding stuff that is not even there.

Satan fell when Jesus came with the Kingdom of God. Compare scriptures.

Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

We are not waiting for the Kingdom of God. It's not a physical thing.

For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
(Rom 14:17)

In fact, basileia is not even a physical anything, it's a Female noun that means to rule something.

Did Jesus cast out devils? did Paul? Then the Kingdom of God already is here.

But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
(Mat 12:28)

And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
(Rev 12:10)

Last time I mention this to you. Rev 12 has already come to pass, otherwise there was no anointing, No casting out devils, No Salvation for anyone.

You make a lot of assumptions with no scriptural support to make things say what you want. It don't work that way.

1) Jesus was just telling prophecy of seeing Satan fall from heaven.
2) Kingdom of Israel = Kingdom of God?
3) Last trumpet to ever sound must be that 7th angel blowing his. We are called up when the LORD HIMSELF SHOUTS, not the 7th Angel.



Yes I already mentioned that about rev 2........ Go figure.

Have fun.

The kingdom of God is within you, Brother.

When Jesus returns and removes all the evil and wicked from the earth, then the will of God will be made manifest; thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.

There are no evil rulers in heaven.

There are no wicked people in heaven.

23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 1 Corinthians 15:23-24

When He comes comes He Himself will destroy the Lawless one, by the brightness of His Coming.


JLB

 

[jocor]

The Kingdom of God is already here, I already gave the scripture for that and there are many more.
Satan is trying to devour us today, not some point in the Future.

Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
(1Pe 5:8)

The Power of Christ is already here and now.

Satan has been trying to devour us ever since man first believed and will continue trying until he can't do it anymore, that is, after we have ascended into heaven.

Jesus never said a word about some prophetic event in the future, he said he saw Satan fall like lightning, and it the reason we have authority over him right in Luke 10:19.

Your adding stuff that is not even there.

Satan fell when Jesus came with the Kingdom of God. Compare scriptures.

Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

We are not waiting for the Kingdom of God. It's not a physical thing.

For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
(Rom 14:17)

In fact, basileia is not even a physical anything, it's a Female noun that means to rule something.

Did Jesus cast out devils? did Paul? Then the Kingdom of God already is here.

But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
(Mat 12:28)

And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
(Rev 12:10)

Last time I mention this to you. Rev 12 has already come to pass, otherwise there was no anointing, No casting out devils, No Salvation for anyone.

You make a lot of assumptions with no scriptural support to make things say what you want. It don't work that way.

1) Jesus was just telling prophecy of seeing Satan fall from heaven.
2) Kingdom of Israel = Kingdom of God?
3) Last trumpet to ever sound must be that 7th angel blowing his. We are called up when the LORD HIMSELF SHOUTS, not the 7th Angel.



Yes I already mentioned that about rev 2........ Go figure.

Have fun.

We enter the Kingdom, spiritually speaking, by faith just as with salvation, resurrection and ascension. We have these things already, but only by faith. They will all become a reality when we are literally resurrected.

Here are a few verses to consider.

Mat 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Luke 22:18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.
Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.
2Ti 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
2Pe 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Yeshua Messiah.

 

[Brother Mike]

The kingdom of God is within you, Brother.

When Jesus returns and removes all the evil and wicked from the earth, then the will of God will be made manifest; thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.

There are no evil rulers in heaven.

There are no wicked people in heaven.

23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 1 Corinthians 15:23-24

When He comes comes He Himself will destroy the Lawless one, by the brightness of His Coming.


JLB

I agree with that JLB, that does not put Rev 12 though in the Future. Rev 1-3 and 12 are events that have already occured. I believe 1-3 though are just as much instruction to the end churches also as it was for Asia Minor at the time (Turkey)

We have to read the whole thing here in order though.

Jesus Gathers the dead in Christ first (first Fruits) Jesus puts an end to all authority and rule subject to him by which he delivers the rule (Kingdom) to his Father.

1 Cor 15:27-28 (Paraphrased) God put all things under the sons feet and made him rule over all things, but the son will put himself into subjection to the Father by which all things be under one rule through Jesus the son, subject unto His Father.

That is all this is saying, Jesus is subject to the Father and through the father will rule giving the Rule (Kingdom) to the Father. Which already was, is and will be as Jesus was faithful unto death and is a faithful High priest unto God and us.

We still have the timing of Rev 12............. Salvation came, Satan booted from his accusatory position in Heaven (Like He did with Job) As Satan no longer had a right once Jesus came with the Rule and will of God for the Earth (Kingdom of God) Which Jesus brought us the Holy Spirit (Power of Christ- Anointing) Strength as we can do all things through Christ which gives us strength and Salvation.

All these occurred when Jesus was on Earth, not some future date.

And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
(Rev 12:10)

And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
(Luk 10:18-19)

When God's Rule came to earth, (Kingdom of God) That is when we got authority over Satan, not having his authority position in Heaven anymore as Jesus said if I cast out devils, the Kingdom of God has come unto you. Satan Lost his ambassadorship Between Heaven and Earth when something more powerful than the law was between God and man.

Now if Rev 12 is in the future and the power of Christ (His anointing) is in the Future, then you don't really speak in tongues and you and I are both confused.

I know that is not the case.

Blessings.

 

[n2thelight]

Personally, I think you need to take a closer look at the words used in Matt. 24:31. What they actually can mean in the Greek language and at the root word of the word trumpet. And especially how the words are used in other places in the scriptures.
Mat 24:31 and he shall send his messengers with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his chosen from the four winds, from the ends of the heavens unto the ends thereof.

I never did this myself until this morning. I just assumed that this must be talking about the Second Advent. I may have been wrong.

Not understanding what you mean about me taking a closer look.....This does refer to the 2nd coming

Matthew 24:30 "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

This is after the tribulation of the deception, after the Antichrist ruled and claimed himself to be God, and after all the events of the first six seals are over; Then Jesus Christ, the Son of man will come to earth in the clouds of heaven, which are all those souls that have lived, died and gone to be with the Lord. Then the true Christ, the true Messiah, who is the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world, will come and claim His own, and not one moment before.

Matthew 24:31 "And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

This is the seventh and the last trumpet, and there will be no coming by Christ until that time, except the Spirit of God working within you. This is the time that the angels of God will go to every corner of the earth, and even to the heavens to gather the elect of God.

 

[Kathi]

This is an interesting article from Joel C.Rosenberg's Blog
http://flashtrafficblog.wordpress.c...-biblical-concept-or-a-fictional-plot-device/

 

[Just a servant]

1 Thessalonians 4:17

Hebrews 11:5

Daniel 12:1

Matthew 13:36

It's all related. Those who are caught up will be made spotless, blameless, like Enoch was, and will be caught up in the twinkle of an eye - translated (transferred and changed).

Further, if you are killed for the sake of the Gospel you will have the best place in Heaven you can get and partake in the 1st Resurrection.

Being as it was in the days of Noah seems to refer to the violence, immorality, and Nephilim. There is a pretty convincing theory that suggests the genes of the Nephillim survived the flood, just not the living Nephilim.

 

[Brother Mike]

1 Thessalonians 4:17

Hebrews 11:5

Daniel 12:1

Matthew 13:36

It's all related. Those who are caught up will be made spotless, blameless, like Enoch was, and will be caught up in the twinkle of an eye - translated (transferred and changed).

Further, if you are killed for the sake of the Gospel you will have the best place in Heaven you can get and partake in the 1st Resurrection.

Being as it was in the days of Noah seems to refer to the violence, immorality, and Nephilim. There is a pretty convincing theory that suggests the genes of the Nephillim survived the flood, just not the living Nephilim.

The Nepha what? oh Brother.

This is an interesting article from Joel C.Rosenberg's Blog
http://flashtrafficblog.wordpress.c...-biblical-concept-or-a-fictional-plot-device/

Some odd reason the site you posted is on the black list of bad sites to visit. I did read through the blog, pretty much standard pre-trib rapture evidence.

Blessings.

 

[Kathi]

The Nepha what? oh Brother.



Some odd reason the site you posted is on the black list of bad sites to visit. I did read through the blog, pretty much standard pre-trib rapture evidence.

Blessings.

That is strange.Maybe the Muslims put that there .Joel.C Rosenberg is very reputable and well known.

 

[Just a servant]

The Nepha what? oh Brother.

Numbers 13:33
Genesis 6:4

It is just a theory, but it is pretty convincing and seems to be supported by Scripture. It is also supported by the Book of Enoch, which is Scriptural to some Ethiopians. Most regard it as not inspired, but prior to Christianity many Jews held it in high regard.

After Jesus came, no Jews continued to believe Satan is in fact a fallen angel hence the disregard for the Book of Enoch.

 

[Brother Mike]

Numbers 13:33
Genesis 6:4

It is just a theory, but it is pretty convincing and seems to be supported by Scripture. It is also supported by the Book of Enoch, which is Scriptural to some Ethiopians. Most regard it as not inspired, but prior to Christianity many Jews held it in high regard.

After Jesus came, no Jews continued to believe Satan is in fact a fallen angel hence the disregard for the Book of Enoch.

I have looked at it, and a few teachers I like teach it. (Not mentioning names) it certainly fun to play around with and make sense of how things can go down in the end. Revelation Talks of things that are pretty amazing like monsters coming out of a smoking pit to sting everyone and nobody can take their life for a span of 5 months. That is supernatural.

The problem is that scripture does not define these Giants. Also how your read it is important, it's sort of cryptic anyway. The sons of Anak seem to be a big race of men and scared Israel out of the promise land God said was theirs. (We were grasshoppers in their eyes) Denotes they were bigger.

YLT:
The fallen ones were in the earth in those days, and even afterwards when sons of God come in unto daughters of men, and they have borne to them--they are the heroes, who, from of old, are the men of name.
(Gen 6:4)
ESV:
The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown.
(Gen 6:4)

Issue is that nobody knows really what Nephilm means. The root Hebrew and Nephilim means a fallen bully, or mean person.

And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.
(Num 13:33)

Now the way this is worded, it appears "Big bullies" is an actual race of large folks. Related to Genesis? Who knows.

The other issues is Sons Of God. Angels? We see the same term in the book of Job, problem is that the term Angle (Malak) was also used in the book of Job. So if the Holy Spirit and writer meant Sons of God is angel , then the Holy Spirit through that writer would have used Malak.

So it's mostly understood that Sons of God are just those that serve God, like we are sons of the most High and does not denote angelic beings.

So we could read it like this.

There were Giants in those days, (Big bullies the fallen folks) and then afterward................... Pause here to list all that had gone wrong. We have bullies and now the Sons of God (God's own folks that served him) Took, Not married but took the daughters of men and had kids with them.

This process of those that were suppose to be serving God committing Rape and the fact the earth was filled with fallen bullies leads God to wipe it all out and start over.
If the Holy Spirit meant Angel here, the again Malak would be present.

Jude they left their own estate, tied with sexual immorality.

Just not enough evidence to make a doctrine out of it, or make any giants back in those days significant for these days. Each seed produces after it's own kind and spirit beings able to reproduce with flesh and blood violates God's law of seed and what produces after what.

blessings and thanks for the input. I would need more besides the book of Enoch.

 

[Just a servant]

There is less evidence for what you said than the theory of Nephilim. Your theory that people serving God committed rape to create Nephilim is much less convincing, and your theory hangs on what word was used.

We can only be sons of God by adoption anyways.

Neither theory can be proven or disproved, but with the mythology found outside of the Bible considered as well, I do find the theory that lines up with the Book of Enoch to be more convincing.

How would giants be created without genetic corruption?

Anyways, either way "being as it was in the days of Noah" refers to the spiritual state of the world and not how we will be caught up after being refined (with the concept that we are at the Close of the Age being accepted). It does not mean no one will be caught up (translated) as Enoch was.

 

[Brother Mike]

There is less evidence for what you said than the theory of Nephilim. Your theory that people serving God committed rape to create Nephilim is much less convincing, and your theory hangs on what word was used.

We can only be sons of God by adoption anyways.

Neither theory can be proven or disproved, but with the mythology found outside of the Bible considered as well, I do find the theory that lines up with the Book of Enoch to be more convincing.

How would giants be created without genetic corruption?

Anyways, either way "being as it was in the days of Noah" refers to the spiritual state of the world and not how we will be caught up after being refined (with the concept that we are at the Close of the Age being accepted). It does not mean no one will be caught up (translated) as Enoch was.

Seems to be gaps and holes in both theories. I am thinking if it was something we just had to understand, the Lord would have given lots more on the subject. I guess its now back to the Rapture topic.

Blessings to you.

 

[Brother Mike]

That is strange.Maybe the Muslims put that there .Joel.C Rosenberg is very reputable and well known.

I suspect His host got in trouble with someone, and hence all domains under the host gets flagged. My firewall blocked the site and I had to give it permission to enter. Seems the host server has some shady dealings. Not the fault of the blogger though.

You are the blessed.

 

[Just a servant]

Seems to be gaps and holes in both theories. I am thinking if it was something we just had to understand, the Lord would have given lots more on the subject. I guess its now back to the Rapture topic.

Blessings to you.

It is true that this is not something we have to know in order to follow God. However, Enoch WAS the first to be translated (the Greek word meaning "transferred, changed") and the Book of Enoch is one of the oldest books in existence. The Book of Enoch also seems to state that it is for the generation that will be at the closing of the age.

It is also a tough book to refute. I have seen attempts, and every attempt I have seen failed miserably. Long pages full of empty words. Doesn't mean it is inspired, but it does give further validity to the idea that it was actually originally written by Enoch (the very first person we know of who was Raptured, which means "Caught up").

 

[Willie T]

They create it i guess because that is how they read scipture in a certain context. I have lost count the amount of times i have changed my mind the more i study and learn. Just a bit lesser of a fool than before.

Very wise words and attitude.