why modern premillenialism fails

not to mention that all them verses say that supposedly support the millenium mention a new earth and heaven and most chruches teach that the new earth is after the millenium!

Scripture says righteousness dwells in new heavens and earth and no more sin, no more curse and no more death as in Rev chap 20.

However, at the end of 1000 year reign, the devil will be set loose and he will deceive the nations for a great battle.

If the 1000 year is after the new heavens and earth, then it contradicts scripture in the nature of what new heavens and earth really is.
 
Scripture says righteousness dwells in new heavens and earth and no more sin, no more curse and no more death as in Rev chap 20.
Scripture says 'He who believes in me will never die ' .
However, at the end of 1000 year reign, the devil will be set loose and he will deceive the nations for a great battle.

If the 1000 year is after the new heavens and earth, then it contradicts scripture in the nature of what new heavens and earth really is.
Now I have read your posts in which you claim to be sinless, how do you do that?
 
you are most wrong, and its not the way it is taught in the church.

the millenial age describes sinner and saints living longer lives then normal. all verse used to support it mention the new isreal with the idea of new heavens and new earth.

so which is it?

show me the outside of revalation that support the idea of christ literally presence in the temple with the ot law in place.
 
While the devil can lie, He cannot lie to Christ for He knows everything, even the thoughts of the devil.

if you carefully look at what the devil says, the authority "has been delivered". However, if you look at Gen 1, the authoirty over the earth was originally given to man not the devil. In Isa 50:1, God says, through our iniquity, we sell ourselves. Sell what? ourselves. When we sell ourselves, we become slaves to devil and allow his rule. But Jesus came to redeem us from the rule of the devil to restore us the authority over the earth. This will happen when He comes again.
You need to remember who claims all the power and authority in heaven and earth
I didn't miss it. You are ignoring it because, even before Christ is given all powers in heaven and earth, God the Father was already having it all the time. Now, Christ seated as the right hand of God, the devil is required to report to Christ who is seated at the throne of God. Christ is waiting for His marriage when He will be one with His children, after which He will put an end to all worldly authority by taking control of it Himself from the devil.
Well as Jason pointed out, futurism takes a low view of the cross.
 
hitch, most futurists dont really realise that they will say well god is on the throne then say well not really as he hasnt taken that up yet.my pastor fits that category. drive me nuts.

@ felix, long before you came here i was where you are from what i can tell from this thread.it was in defense of your position that i had to realise its off, and way off. i wanted to know what the bible does support and it has made better at what will the end that is reavealed will be like and well the odd man out at many a churches and forums but christianity isnt a popularity contest.
 
Scripture says 'He who believes in me will never die ' .
Now I have read your posts in which you claim to be sinless, how do you do that?

(Rom 8:11) But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Curious to know where I mentioned as 'sinless'. I think you missed the part where I could have mentioned it was through Christ who washed my sins...
 
(Rom 8:11) But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Curious to know where I mentioned as 'sinless'. I think you missed the part where I could have mentioned it was through Christ who washed my sins...
no I didnt miss that .

That was not possible before the cross was it?

And the imputed righteousness of Christ is true of all believers ,correct?
 
@ felix, long before you came here i was where you are from what i can tell from this thread.it was in defense of your position that i had to realise its off, and way off. i wanted to know what the bible does support and it has made better at what will the end that is reavealed will be like and well the odd man out at many a churches and forums but christianity isnt a popularity contest.

jasoncran, I am actually trying to understand how amillenialism can be true without contradicting any verses in scripture. I don't full subscribe to premillenialism either.. but only believe what the scripture says ... meaning, I don't want to out terms and meanings based on human interpretation.
 
lol., i dont fully see at present where amil is perfect but i cant see premil any longer as taught.you are teaching that grace is over and yet isnt when the second advent occurs.

the oldest premil position that was aroung the time of john was that jesus was to reign from that ezekiel temple, john the apostle considered that according to some a big heresy!
 
jasoncran, I am actually trying to understand how amillenialism can be true without contradicting any verses in scripture. I don't full subscribe to premillenialism either.. but only believe what the scripture says ... meaning, I don't want to out terms and meanings based on human interpretation.
Great I'd love to see how you square up pre-millinnialiasm with ;

John 6:39
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
 
Great I'd love to see how you square up pre-millinnialiasm with ;

John 6:39
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

The last day is the judgement day - The day of the wrath of the lamb as in Rev 6:16
 
so how can it be that until then theres some literal 1000 yr reign that has limited grace to it? if he is on the earth and theres saint that dead, then means a ressurection has to have occured.
 
so how can it be that until then theres some literal 1000 yr reign that has limited grace to it? if he is on the earth and theres saint that dead, then means a ressurection has to have occured.

1000 yr reign is before the last day or the judgment day. The judgement day is at the end of 1000 year reign as provided in Rev 20 (in sequence).

I don't understand the limited grace stuff.
 
I go by the feasts of the Lord. That's because God gave them in Leviticus 23 and as Paul taught were "shadows of things to come".

Passover - His death; Unleavened Bread his burial as the sinless body of Christ was interred and we come out of a life of sin (leaven meant sin)
Firstfruits: the day of resurrection
Pentecost: A harvest day, the Holy Spirit was given and the firstfruits (the church) of God's salvation.

Notice that God fulfilled them with historical events at the appointed times of the feast, as that is what they represented.

So.....
When was Trumpets, Day of Atonement, and here's yet another harvest feast of Tabernacles historically fulfilled? What about the Last Great Day at the end of Tabernacles? What do these feasts represent?

The feast of trumpets has something to do with a King and a coronation ceremony.

Here's a curious verse:

Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD Almighty, and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. (NIV)

When did that ever happen? Geez, history shows that nations that attacked Jerusalem occupied and desecrated it, not came up to keep the feast of Tabernacles.

And here's yet another curiosity, there's a gap of time between the spring feasts and autumn feasts as if to represent an age gap. Gee..... the last thing I remember happening is feast of Pentecost, and the NT history sort of stops there after the church was launched and the epistles dealt with the apostles spreading the message of Christ.

It's all in the feasts, God's ingenious blueprint for His plan of redemption.
 
I go by the feasts of the Lord. That's because God gave them in Leviticus 23 and as Paul taught were "shadows of things to come".

Passover - His death; Unleavened Bread his burial as the sinless body of Christ was interred and we come out of a life of sin (leaven meant sin)
Firstfruits: the day of resurrection
Pentecost: A harvest day, the Holy Spirit was given and the firstfruits (the church) of God's salvation.

Notice that God fulfilled them with historical events at the appointed times of the feast, as that is what they represented.

So.....
When was Trumpets, Day of Atonement, and here's yet another harvest feast of Tabernacles historically fulfilled? What about the Last Great Day at the end of Tabernacles? What do these feasts represent?

The feast of trumpets has something to do with a King and a coronation ceremony.

Here's a curious verse:

Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD Almighty, and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. (NIV)

When did that ever happen? Geez, history shows that nations that attacked Jerusalem occupied and desecrated it, not came up to keep the feast of Tabernacles.

And here's yet another curiosity, there's a gap of time between the spring feasts and autumn feasts as if to represent an age gap. Gee..... the last thing I remember happening is feast of Pentecost, and the NT history sort of stops there after the church was launched and the epistles dealt with the apostles spreading the message of Christ.

It's all in the feasts, God's ingenious blueprint for His plan of redemption.


of what the earth or a shadow of himself? who does the redemption isreal or the messiah? the problem for you is that somehow god goes from slow to wrath to quick to wrath for if he is rule the nations with such a harsh judgment as taugh then grace is only once and mercy is given once. so when you are told to repent then its then only then. wouldnt it make sense to have done it that way in the first place?

next what is the first prophecy of the redeemer to? and whose seed is he of eve? so what was the reedemer to do? redeem all of the earth not isreal.

and when its all done, what is the point of the law? it does say that when law shall pass when heaven and earth is destroyed. kinda to be taken like that means when the time and earth and heavens are forever altered. isreal was a vessel to be used by god she failed so the Lord came to do what she couldnt do be that light unto the world. it he that is the light not isreal. jews and messianic jews in particular cant seem to get that part at all. its all about the cross not isreal.
 
1000 yr reign is before the last day or the judgment day. The judgement day is at the end of 1000 year reign as provided in Rev 20 (in sequence).

I don't understand the limited grace stuff.
rule the nations with an iron fist as taught means that there wont be blatent and rebillious sin, no murder and well as taught somehow that animals in the 1000 yrs dont each other.

Whether man likes it or not, God is going to be supreme and Jesus will reign from shore to shore and we will rule and reign with Him with that rod of iron! Then wicked man will be forced to do what's right and forced to obey for a thousand years!--"And judgement was given to the saints of the Most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the Kingdom. And the Kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the Kingdom under the whole Heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High, whose Kingdom is an everlasting Kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey Him!" (Dan.7:22,27)
Right now the ungodly and Antichrist powers of this world treat us as aliens, and banish us and exile us and even drive some of us from our own countries, forcing us to be refugees and fugitives from their injustice. But then, under the supreme reign of Christ Himself, the pitiful little bands of persecuted Christians and believers and children of God are going to inherit the Earth and the Kingdom of God on Earth and run and govern it by love and the power of God!
We will no longer be the poor, persecuted, hounded few of the poor little bedeviled sects or cults or whatever they want to call us!--We will then number in the millions and the billions, and we are going to rule the Earth with Jesus Christ over our God-damned enemies who have tormented us and persecuted us and hounded us from country to country throughout the Earth, until the very end of the Great Tribulation when they virtually drive us clear off the Earth and we're all Raptured up to be with Jesus!
So don't worry, we're going to have a country to call our own one of these days, thank the Lord! In fact, it'll all be our country then!--Because our country will be a World-wide, Earth-wide, Kingdom of God on Earth! All the countries are going to be ours in that day when Jesus comes!--And our former enemies and persecutors will be our guests! They will be the men without a country, because it will be our country!--And they'd better behave, too, or they'll not only be without a country, but without an Earth!
No longer will reign the cruel, selfish, dog-eat-dog philosophy which gives the world to the strongest and the mightiest, in which might is right, as it is run today by rebellious, disobedient and perverted man!--But it will be given to those who really have the right to govern because of what today's reprobate man considers weaknesses: Love and meekness and forgiveness and faith in God and His Word!
These weakest and meekest will become the most powerful influences on earth, the most powerful people, who will rule the World with both love and a "rod of iron" of loving force to compel the nations to submit to the laws of God and to recognise His authority and to obey His rules of life, love, health and happiness for a reign of "peace on Earth toward men of good will".
Then and only then, under the supreme and powerful rule and reign of Christ and God's children, will all wars finally cease and the World at last be governed fairly and well with true justice, liberty, peace, plenty and happiness for all! Hallelujah!
"And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain (kingdom) of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the Mountain of the Lord, to the House of the God of Jacob; and He will teach us of His ways, and we will walk in His paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the Word of the Lord from Jerusalem!" (Is.2:2,3)
Jesus christ is going to set up His throne in Jerusalem and make it His Millennial capital!--Not the Prime Minister of Israel's, not the Antichrist's, not the Devil's--but God's! And from there He will rule and reign over the Earth, and we shall rule and reign with Him!
"And He shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more!" (Is.2:4)--Complete disarmament at last! That will be the World's first real genuine disarmament, beating their weapons into instruments of peace!--Hallelujah!
At last there will be peace on earth which shall never end under the reign of Jesus Christ, the Son of God and Prince of Peace Himself! Today's wicked and vengeful men of war will be stopped at last as God "destroys them that destroy the Earth"! (Rev.11:18)--Those who brought war and conflict to the Earth! Only then shall the men of peace and the God of peace and the Prince of Peace rule and reign and bring final "peace on Earth"! (Lk.2:14)
Then "all the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the Lord: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before Thee. For the Kingdom is the Lord's: and He is the Governor among the nations. He maketh wars to cease unto the end of the Earth; He breaketh the bow, and cutteth the spear in sunder; He burneth the chariot in the fire!" (Ps.22:27,28 ; 46:9) He's going to stop all this war business, He's going to break the arrows and the swords and the shields and the bows, etc. All those chariots and planes and tanks and missiles and bombs and all that are going to be burned up, thank God!
Jesus told his disciples, "The kingdom of God is within you" (Lk.17:21 ), and this is true for all of us who know and love the Lord--we already have Heaven on Earth in our hearts! But the problem is, there is still Hell all around us! But in that day He's going to wipe away all this Hell on Earth, and He's going to set up His Kingdom of peace and righteousness and fairness and justice and goodness and mercy and love! And that's going to literally be Heaven on Earth!--His Kingdom won't only be within us, it will be all around us!
"The Lord most high is a great king over all the earth."--In the Millennium!--"He shall subdue the people under us, and the nations under our feet! For God is the King of all the Earth: sing ye praises with understanding! God reigneth over the heathen: God sitteth upon the throne of His Holiness." (Ps.47:2,3,7,8)
"The mountains shall bring peace to the people, and the little hills, by righteousness. He shall judge the poor of the people, He shall save the children of the needy, and shall break in pieces the oppressor." (Ps.72:3,4)--The World is going to see a righteous Judge at last, a righteous King, a righteous Ruler, Who will have a righteous government!--No more corruption, vice, crime, payola, bribery or crooked judges and crooked politicians, but a righteous government and righteous, just justice for all!
"He shall come down like rain upon the mown grass: as showers that water the earth. He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the Earth." (Ps.72:6,8)--The Kingdom of Christ on Earth is going to completely cover the whole World! "For the Lord hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers. The whole Earth is at rest, and is quiet; they break forth into singing"! (Is.14:5,7)
There'll be no more big powers and oppressed poor!--Only the Kingdom of Jesus Christ, Heaven on Earth, fairness and justice for all and eternal happiness forever!--"Yea, all kings shall fall down before Him: all nations shall serve Him. And blessed be His glorious Name for ever: and let the whole Earth be filled with His glory; Amen, and Amen!" (Ps.72:11,19) (Continued in part 2)
Copyright © 1998 by The Family

http://deeptruths.com/bof/the_millennium.html
 
The reign of Jesus Christ during the Millennium is going to be a mixture of Heaven on the earth that now is, and over the unsaved who now are, or who will be at that time. It will be a reign of Jesus Christ and His children over what is left of this World and its unsaved populations. We, the born-again, saved, resurrected saints will be in our new supernatural bodies, but the rest of the World, those who have been spared and blessed enough to survive into the Millennium, are going to still be in their old natural bodies. Therefore life is sort of going to go on as usual in a lot of ways for them!
The Millennium will be almost like an extension of this age now, because the World and its people will still be living in time. But to us who are resurrected and raptured at the Coming of Christ, time shall be no more! (Rev.10:6 .)--We will not be bound by time any longer! But those who still remain on the Earth, having survived the horrors of the Wrath of God upon the wicked, will still be bound by time.
The earth will still be living in time.--The unregenerate, unsaved people who survive the holocaust of God's Wrath, first of all the Antichrist's wrath and then Armageddon and Christ's Wrath--who by some miracle manage to survive it, who are blessed by being allowed to survive it--will still be bound by time and space here on Earth just as we were before we left with Jesus.
But for us, time shall be no more!--And in some ways, space will be no more! In other words, we will not be bound by time or space! We will be able to just wish ourselves anywhere and we will be there with the speed of thought!--And of course we'll only wish to do God's Will and we will be messengers of His Will.
plowhorse.jpg

But the normal, natural people are going to be the same then as they are now!--Human beings still in their mortal bodies whom God's blessed by allowing them to live through the horrors that preceded.--And they're going to feel blessed, too, when they realise that they managed to be Millennial survivors! But they will live almost exactly like they are living now: They'll still have to go out fishing, they'll still have to raise food, they'll still have to make clothes, they'll still have to live in a normal natural World--in fact, the same World they're living in now!
The natural men are going to be just what they are now, only they will be under our government. So for them, things are going to be exactly like they are today, except for one big difference: We'll be the top dogs, the officers, the supreme rulers! We'll be in charge, Jesus and His Kingdom will be the government, and we'll be His governors, His officers, His leaders, His rulers of the World! "We shall be kings and priests unto God," He says (Rev.1:6), and we will rule the Earth!
So in some ways, the Millennium will be almost like a repeat, like a movie you've seen before, but there will be quite a few big differences!--Mainly, that we're going to be running the World instead of them, and we're going to have a lot of supernatural help and advantages! We'll have supernatural bodies and wisdom and skill and power and protection and we'll change a lot of things for the better!--PTL!
Post-Armageddon clean-up campaign!

In order for the Lord and us to establish a nice, beautiful, good, clean heaven on earth, we'll first have to clean up the hell on earth that the Antichrist and his demon-possessed people left behind!--And the horrible slaughter left behind by God's Own judgements and our Battle of Armageddon against them! So there will certainly be some cleaning up to do! In Israel alone, it's going to take seven months just to bury all the dead, and seven years to clear away all the wreckage of the instruments of war, to clear away and burn the weapons and vehicles of war, etc.!--Seven years to clean up the rubble, debris and wreckage left behind by the terrible Battle of Armageddon! (Ez.39:9,14 .)
So that will be our first job during the first seven years of the Millennium: Directing the worldlings and the survivors in this big clean-up operation! It sounds like it will be a pretty big assignment and a tough job, and I'm sure it will be!--But with supernatural bodies and supernatural power and the wisdom of God and the Lord's direction, organisation and Heavenly government, I'm sure it won't be too difficult for us!
It'll be a wonder that the Lord and us will ever be able to straighten things out!--But we will, according to His Word! PTL! "And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations. And ye shall be named the Priests of the Lord: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves." (Isa.61:4-6 .)
Back to the Garden!

Another major change that will occur during the Millennium is that the curse will be partially lifted, which will mean a lot of different and better conditions, thank the Lord! The Earth will be like it was during the days of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden! The curse and the results of the curse will be removed and things will be partially restored to pre-curse conditions.
The earth will blossom like a rose and all God's creation will be in perfect peace and beautiful harmony and at peace with one other.--No more of man's cruelty toward man, no more of man's inhumanity to man, but all will be peace and beauty, like the Garden of Eden restored!--Heaven on Earth once again as it was in the Beginning, but even better, because we'll have Jesus! PTL!
"For in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert. And the parched ground shall become a pool, and the thirsty land springs of water. And the desolate land shall be tilled, whereas it lay desolate in the sight of all that passed by. And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the Garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited." (Is.35:6,7 ; Ez.36:34,35 .)
"Let the heavens rejoice, and let the earth be glad; let the sea roar, and the fulness thereof!" (Ps.96:11 .)--Are the Heavens rejoicing and is the Earth glad today? Paul tells us that the whole Earth is groaning today, not rejoicing!--"The whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain, waiting to be delivered"! (Rom.8:22,23 .) The whole Creation, in a sense, is under the curse of sin and the Devil and his demons and his pests and vipers and thorns and thistles and sin and sickness etc. But in the Millennium, it will be partially delivered and greatly restored!
"Let the field be joyful, and all that is therein: then shall all the trees of the wood rejoice!" (Ps.96:12 .) Nowadays, whenever you hear the wind blowing through the trees, does it sound like the trees are rejoicing?--It's more of a moaning, sighing sound, sometimes almost enough to give you the willies! You never hear it sounding happy, do you? Well, I don't know how the Lord's going to do it, but when He comes and takes over the World, the trees are going to be glad and rejoice!--They will actually sound happy!
Did you know that right now, all the sounds in nature are in a minor key and have a little sad note to them? Even the birds are grieving over what man has done! All nature, Paul says, is groaning and grieving over the sins of man. All of God's creation is groaning, and man's certainly doing some groaning too! Well, the day's coming when the field and the trees are going to rejoice!--"Before the Lord: for He cometh, for He cometh to judge the Earth: He shall judge the World with righteousness, and the people with His truth." (Ps.96:13 .) Hallelujah!
At last the Lord is going to redeem the earth and cause the beautiful Garden of Eden to blossom again as we rule and reign with Christ for a thousand years! The natural unsaved people who survived the Tribulation and Wrath-of-God periods will be so amazingly blessed to be able to live during this Millennial period at all, as the Earth will be relieved of the curse and the curses that have beset it, including the thorns and the thistles and the brier and all kinds of beasts and critters and creatures that are poisonous, even the poisonous flowers and grasses and so on. All these cursed things will be eliminated!
Children007.jpg
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"The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den." (Is.11:6-8 .)
You never hear about a wolf lying down with a lamb nowadays, do you?--Unless the lamb is inside the wolf! Or a leopard lying down with a kid, a little baby goat?--They usually lie down with the kid inside of them too! And the calf and the young lion and the fatling together?--Usually the lion is tearing'm apart and eating'm! Neither have you heard about a little child leading them all!
Well, there was a day before the Flood when animals were the pets of man and he could talk to them and they could talk to him!--Man and the animals were at peace with each other. They didn't fight and they didn't kill and they didn't eat each other as they do today. Well, the day is coming again when there will be peace between man and the animals and you'll be able to call them by name and they'll come running like your dog or your cat, like pets, playfully. Even a little child will be able to play with them, think of that!
So it's evident that a great deal, if not all, of the curse is going to be removed. The animals will go back to being herbivorous again and won't eat each other, much less us! Isn't that beautiful? Apparently man won't eat flesh then either, we'll all be herbivorous again! Both man and beast will return to vegetarianism during the Millennium, because apparently they won't need the extra strength of animal flesh to survive. The curse will have been at least partially removed and man will no longer be suffering the ill effects of whatever it was that shortened life after the Flood.
From creation until the Flood, man was strictly vegetarian, because God said specifically at the time of Creation that He had given them every green thing, the herbs and plants and so on, to eat--just vegetables--no meat or flesh of any kind. (Gen.1:29,30 .) But after the Flood, that pre-Flood cloud covering that enveloped the Earth disappeared and those deadly cosmic rays began to come through. Instead of living eight, nine hundred or a thousand years, all of a sudden their lifespans were greatly reduced, as they are today. And man's body apparently needed extra help to survive the ravages of both the judgements of God and the toll of sin, so God mercifully gave him meat to eat. (Gen.9:2,3 .)
Of course the sceptics always make fun of these Scriptures about "the cow and the bear shall feed, and the lion shall eat straw like the ox." (Is.11:7 .) They say, "They couldn't possibly do that, they're carnivorous beasts, that's impossible, blah blah, blah blah!" Well, nothing's impossible with the Lord! (Lk.1:37.) And I have such confidence in this Book, the Word of God and the Words of Jesus and every book and every Chapter and every verse in it--I have proven so many of them to be true and have found none of them to ever fail or to be false--that I believe it means exactly what it says and that's exactly what's gonna happen! Because if they're not going to eat each other or eat us anymore, what are they going to eat?--They're going to have to graze like the ox and the calf!

Copyright © 2009 by The Family
 
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