Why not call Mary the mother of God and Queen of heaven

[cj]

I'll give you a hint, it has to do with what Elizabeth said in the verse that came before.

In love,
cj

 

[CatholicXian]

cj.. put it this way. Is Jesus 2 persons, or 1?

are mothers, mothers of bodies, or of persons?


... Jesus is 1 person.
... mothers are mothers of persons, not sacks of flesh.

Thus, Mary is the mother of the person of Jesus Christ, true God and true man. Yes, Christ received ONLY His humanity and not His divinity from Mary, but Mary is not "mother" of only half of Christ-- it wasn't as though a bag of flesh rolled out of her womb and was then united to Divinity. The child born from the womb of Mary was the God-man, 100% human, 100% divine... though Mary contributed NOTHING to Christ's divinity, she nonetheless was the mother of the person of Jesus Christ, and in that sense can rightly be called "mother of God"

 

[cj]

cj.. put it this way. Is Jesus 2 persons, or 1?

are mothers, mothers of bodies, or of persons?


... Jesus is 1 person.
... mothers are mothers of persons, not sacks of flesh.

Thus, Mary is the mother of the person of Jesus Christ, true God and true man. Yes, Christ received ONLY His humanity and not His divinity from Mary, but Mary is not "mother" of only half of Christ-- it wasn't as though a bag of flesh rolled out of her womb and was then united to Divinity. The child born from the womb of Mary was the God-man, 100% human, 100% divine... though Mary contributed NOTHING to Christ's divinity, she nonetheless was the mother of the person of Jesus Christ, and in that sense can rightly be called "mother of God"

You can make a huge dance out of it if you want, the RC instiution has been doing it for centuries as they play out a number on their followers.


It is absolutely erroneous to refer to Mary as the mother of that which she could never be the mother of.

The person of Jesus Christ was such from before Mary was born. Or are you ignorant of the fact that Jesus was from the beginning?

The only correct sense that Mary can claim is perhaps that of the mother of the Son of man, which is Christ in His humanity.

Jesu is not two persons, but He is most certainly the mingling of two beings, the uncreated and the created.

As for the personhood of Jesus, as is declared in scripture, GOD IS SPIRIT...... not flesh. And thus Mary would need to have also been Spirit in order for any claim to mothering God to be valid.

Listen to you ignorance....."though Mary contributed NOTHING to Christ's divinity, she nonetheless was the mother of the person of Jesus Christ,"

You contradict yourself....... Christ Jesus was both divine and human, yet you attempt to say that Mary can be called the mother of Christ Jesus although she did not contribute to one aspect of His person.

Utter foolishness.

Why don't you be honest before God and call her the "mother of one aspect of Christ Jesus," because that, in your own words, is what she in a sense is.

As for the remaining point..... the "mother of God" point, even scripture rejects that lie.


I notice how you ignored the scriptures that I gave.


And this is what the RC follower does,..... claims false teaching as correct, while ignoring much of the scriptures.


In love,
cj

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Jesus Christ is not divisible. His Divine and Human natures were both unmixed and inseparable. Had it been otherwise, He would have been INDEED two creatures.

I find it fascinating that no one objects to Abraham being called the 'father of faith.' Perhaps that is because Abraham was a man, and thus no threat to the latent misogyny that permeates every fiber of Western man??

Was Mary the bearer of God? Indeed, He who Is and cannot be contained in the entire universe existed within the womb of a simple, fathful girl.
Was Mary the mother of God? In English, strictly speaking, in the manner that Protestants think, no.
She was the mother of He who is God.

But the hair-splitting by Protestants on this issue goes beyond translation, and into authority- as in authority to define terms and thus define theology.
Case in point: saved. The Greek term translated 'save' or 'saved' has no specific reference to eternal judgement- yet Protestants gasp if I say "my daughter saved me." In the Greek sense, she did, for her birth made me really think about my relationship with God, then repent.

So, in essence, the Protesters reserve the right to define terms.
I am not moved by such objections.

 

[cj]

Jesus Christ is not divisible. His Divine and Human natures were both unmixed and inseparable. Had it been otherwise, He would have been INDEED two creatures.

This is scriptural ignorance, God is Spirit, man is not.

"The Word....... BECAME....... flesh."

Notes from the Recovery Version bible..... It is the Word who became such flesh, and this Word was God, the complete Triune God (v. 1). That the Word became flesh means that the Triune God became a man of flesh in the likeness of a sinful man. By so doing God entered into sinful man and became one with sinful man. However, He had only the likeness of a sinful man and not the sin of a sinful man. Hence, He was a sinless God-man, the complete God and the perfect man, having two natures, the divine nature and the human nature. Although His two natures were mingled to produce a God-man, the individual characteristics of the two natures remained distinct; the two natures did not intermix to form a third nature. Rather, the divine nature existed in the human nature and was expressed through the human nature, full of grace, which is God enjoyed by man, and reality, which is God obtained by man. In this way the invisible God was expressed so that men can obtain and enjoy Him as their life for the fulfillment of His New Testament economy.

God's becoming flesh was contrary to the teaching of the Gnostics of that time. The Gnostics maintained that since the flesh is an evil substance, God, who is pure, could never be united with the evil flesh. Using the teaching of the Gnostics as a basis, the Docetists denied that Christ had come in the flesh (1 John 4:2). John wrote this Gospel in part to refute the heresy of the Docetists and to prove strongly that Christ, the God-man, is indeed God who became flesh (having only the likeness of the flesh of sin but not the sin of the flesh) that through this flesh, on the one hand, He might destroy the devil (Heb. 2:14) and put away the sins of man (Heb. 9:26), and, on the other hand, God might be united with man and be expressed through humanity for the fulfillment of His glorious purpose, a purpose He planned in eternity past for eternity future.

The deep thought of the Gospel of John is that Christ, the incarnate God, came as the embodiment of God, as illustrated by the tabernacle (v. 14) and the temple (2:21), so that man could contact Him and enter into Him to enjoy the riches contained in God. Both the tabernacle and the temple had an outer court, a Holy Place, and a Holy of Holies. Therefore, John points out first that Christ was the Lamb (who took away sin  v. 29) offered on the altar, which signifies the cross, in the outer court of the tabernacle, and then that He was like the bronze serpent (which caused man to have life) lifted up on the pole (3:14), which signifies the cross. This shows how Christ in His redemption was received by His believers that they might be delivered from sin and obtain life and might enter into Him as the embodiment of God, typified by the tabernacle, to enjoy all the riches that are in God. The foot-washing in ch. 13 may be considered the washing in the laver in the outer court of the tabernacle, which washed away the earthly defilement of those who drew near to God, so that their fellowship with God and with one another could be maintained. In ch. 14 those who receive Christ are brought by Him into the Holy Place to experience Him as the bread of life (6:35), signified by the showbread, and as the light of life (8:12; 9:5), signified by the lampstand. Eventually, in ch. 17, through the highest and most mysterious prayer, which is typified by the burning incense on the golden incense altar, those who enjoy Christ as life and as light are brought by Him into the Holy of Holies to enter with Him into the deepest enjoyment of God and to enjoy the glory that God has given Him (17:22-24).

I find it fascinating that no one objects to Abraham being called the 'father of faith.' Perhaps that is because Abraham was a man, and thus no threat to the latent misogyny that permeates every fiber of Western man??

Again scriptural ignorance,....... as scripture declares just this, but scripture does not declare Mary as the mother of God.

Be true to scripture, don't add to it. Why is it so difficult for you to abide by this request of the God you claim to love and serve?

And what is a hoot is you natural justification of your erroneous concept above.

Also OC, get out of here with your silly obnoxious comments/opinions/judgements of "Western" man.

Who are you oh Eastern man,....... nothing more tah fallen like those around you. Or did you not get that God sees no difference in men?

You expose you corrupted mind when you uphold human culture as some sort of positive possession of men.

Was Mary the bearer of God? Indeed, He who Is and cannot be contained in the entire universe existed within the womb of a simple, fathful girl.

Again a lie,...... as He who you claim Mary bore, was in fact bearing Mary.

How deep is the blindness that this corruption brings men into.

Was Mary the mother of God? In English, strictly speaking, in the manner that Protestants think, no.
She was the mother of He who is God.

Put yer boots on folks, here comes the spin.......

But the hair-splitting by Protestants on this issue goes beyond translation, and into authority- as in authority to define terms and thus define theology.[quote="Orthodox Christian":2bece]ir" has led folks like you to worship and serve God's adversary.

[quote="Orthodox Christian":2bece]Case in point: saved. The Greek term translated 'save' or 'saved' has no specific reference to eternal judgement- yet Protestants gasp if I say "my daughter saved me." In the Greek sense, she did, for her birth made me really think about my relationship with God, then repent.

These Protestants are simply followers of the daughter harlot institutions, what else should you expect.

The truth of the matter is that God's mercy regarding your salvation reached you through the coming of your daughter.

This is not hard to grasp OC.

So, in essence, the Protesters reserve the right to define terms.
I am not moved by such objections.

[/quote:2bece][/quote:2bece]

Bully for you.


In love,
cj

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Jesus Christ is not divisible. His Divine and Human natures were both unmixed and inseparable. Had it been otherwise, He would have been INDEED two creatures.

This is scriptural ignorance, God is Spirit, man is not.

"The Word....... BECAME....... flesh."

Notes from the Recovery Version bible..... It is the Word who became such flesh, and this Word was God, the complete Triune God (v. 1). That the Word became flesh means that the Triune God became a man of flesh in the likeness of a sinful man. By so doing God entered into sinful man and became one with sinful man. However, He had only the likeness of a sinful man and not the sin of a sinful man. Hence, He was a sinless God-man, the complete God and the perfect man, having two natures, the divine nature and the human nature. Although His two natures were mingled to produce a God-man, the individual characteristics of the two natures remained distinct; the two natures did not intermix to form a third nature. Rather, the divine nature existed in the human nature and was expressed through the human nature, full of grace, which is God enjoyed by man, and reality, which is God obtained by man. In this way the invisible God was expressed so that men can obtain and enjoy Him as their life for the fulfillment of His New Testament economy.

Recovery Bible as Theological source material? Quaint.
Anyway, they took the first part of the Chalcedonian formula, and casually disdained the other. Indeed, His natures were unmixed (keep in mind that this commentary is borrowing DIRECTLY from the canons of that Council), but these folks fail to mention that His natures were also undivided.

Secondly, this commentary relies heavily on Augustine's and Anselm's view of fallen man (aka sinful man) to describe Jesus as avoiding the impact of inherited/imputed sin. This is a false theology, one popular in the West, whose end is the damnation of stillborn infants.

I find it fascinating that no one objects to Abraham being called the 'father of faith.' Perhaps that is because Abraham was a man, and thus no threat to the latent misogyny that permeates every fiber of Western man??

Again scriptural ignorance,....... as scripture declares just this, but scripture does not declare Mary as the mother of God.

There is a difference between "scriptural ignorance" and a flawed analogy, my petulant and condescending friend. Just as the Trinity is clearly and logically deduced from scripture, not emphatically stated from scripture, Mary being the mother of He who is God (the words that I used to accomodate the claim-jumping Protestants) is also clearly and logically deduced.

Be true to scripture, don't add to it. Why is it so difficult for you to abide by this request of the God you claim to love and serve?

White man speaks with forked tongue. The modifier "you claim" is nothing more and nothing less than further condescension.

Also OC, get out of here with your silly obnoxious comments/opinions/judgements of "Western" man.

Who are you oh Eastern man,....... nothing more tah fallen like those around you. Or did you not get that God sees no difference in men?

You expose you corrupted mind when you uphold human culture as some sort of positive possession of men.

I find it telling that you don't deny the misogyny, but rather attack the man for pointing it out.
I find the Fundamentalist patriarchal male chauvinstic hubris, baptized in so-called scriptural rigor to be the true 'corruption of mind,' fella.

Was Mary the bearer of God? Indeed, He who Is and cannot be contained in the entire universe existed within the womb of a simple, fathful girl.

Again a lie,...... as He who you claim Mary bore, was in fact bearing Mary.

How deep is the blindness that this corruption brings men into.

So you deny that the child within Mary was (and is) God?

Was Mary the mother of God? In English, strictly speaking, in the manner that Protestants think, no.
She was the mother of He who is God.

Put yer boots on folks, here comes the spin.......

Ah, what a quaint colloquialism. I assure you, I have my waders on whenever you deign to pontificate. Proceed...

But the hair-splitting by Protestants on this issue goes beyond translation, and into authority- as in authority to define terms and thus define theology.

[quote="Orthodox Christian":03c85]ir" has led folks like you to worship and serve God's adversary.

[/quote:03c85]
The above quote, ignominiously attributed to me, was not mine. It is, in point of fact, a love letter from CJ stating that I worship and serve God's adversary. What a warm little Christian witness you are, CJ.

Case in point: saved. The Greek term translated 'save' or 'saved' has no specific reference to eternal judgement- yet Protestants gasp if I say "my daughter saved me." In the Greek sense, she did, for her birth made me really think about my relationship with God, then repent.

These Protestants are simply followers of the daughter harlot institutions, what else should you expect.

The truth of the matter is that God's mercy regarding your salvation reached you through the coming of your daughter.

This is not hard to grasp OC.

You, without hesitation, speak blithely of that which you know not. Is it fair to say that you missed the point here? Of course it is- that's not hard to discern.

So, in essence, the Protesters reserve the right to define terms.
I am not moved by such objections.

Bully for you.

I believe that comes under rule 8 regarding no flaming.

 

[Diaconeo]

But the hair-splitting by Protestants on this issue goes beyond translation, and into authority- as in authority to define terms and thus define theology.
Case in point: saved. The Greek term translated 'save' or 'saved' has no specific reference to eternal judgement- yet Protestants gasp if I say "my daughter saved me." In the Greek sense, she did, for her birth made me really think about my relationship with God, then repent.

So, in essence, the Protesters reserve the right to define terms.
I am not moved by such objections.

Definition of terms is of essence here. In the protestant thinking the beget a god you must be a god. To be the mother of a god then by definition means that she is a god. Since this is not the case, we take exception to the name 'Mother of God'. Mary was indeed the mother of Christ's humanity and that is where it ends. I am of utter agreement that Jesus was fully man and fully God, but only in the sense that the Son of God took on flesh to become man. By this then I can agree that Mary carried the baby that is the God-man, but I still take exception to her being the 'mother' of God, she wasn't but rather she was the mother of Christ in his humanity.

And I would have to disagree that 'saved' "has no specific reference to eternal judgement" because it does in the realm of theology. Yes, the word can also mean rescue, or saved from physical harm. And yes, one can be said to have saved someone from eternal judgement in that they expounded the Gospel to them and they received it and thus became saved. The reason that there is a theological definition for the Greek word translated as 'saved' (from the Greek sozo) is not to define what it means in a general sense, but rather what it means in the theological sense. So, as a matter or theological debate, the very word 'saved' must have a definition other than 'rescued, preserved, made well, brought safely, cured' if only for the point of theological debate.

So, getting back to the reason of my post, definition is required, and in this instance, some common definition is required. Protestants (at least the very large majority of them) object to the honorific title 'Mother of God.' for the very simply reason that created beings only beget after their kind and man does not beget God. In order to beget God, you must be God and Mary is not God. Mary birthed a human baby in the person of Jesus, son of David. The Son of God took on flesh in the person of Jesus and it was the man that Mary was the mother of not the God. I can agree that Mary was the mother of the man that is God, but not to the God that became man and that is where our point of contention lies. We see the title Mother of God as Mary being the mother of the God who became man, not as the mother of the man who is God.


In Christ,
Matthew

 

[cj]

....... object to the honorific title 'Mother of God.'

See Matthew, if it was just a "honoring" and a simply "definition" matter, then there would be no real problem..... But its not, because it is founded on the wickedness of false doctrine contrived to bring men back into (believers) or further into (non-believers) the bondage of Satan's system.

Contrary to the spoken ignorance that OC attempts to feed us, it is not the words, but the motive the words carry. And in this case, the motive is to take men prisoner to a false and folly doctrine called Mary worship.

Words are not separate from life or death, as they all carry one or the other.



Make no mistake though, Mary, like all believers, on receiving the Lord as life was on her way to deification, in God's life and nature (not in the Godhead), but this was through a process of transformation, as it is with all of us, that takes time. One day Mary will be just as the Lord is (not though, in the Godhead).

How? Through the work of God the Spirit, He who works out the will of God in His creation.

This is the truth,....... God the Father is in a sense both the Mother and the Father of all positive things in creation. For all positive things are of Him and out of Him.

What a shameful and fololish thing it is when men try to snatch this eternal truth out of His hand.


In love,
cj

 

[Orthodox Christian]

But the hair-splitting by Protestants on this issue goes beyond translation, and into authority- as in authority to define terms and thus define theology.
Case in point: saved. The Greek term translated 'save' or 'saved' has no specific reference to eternal judgement- yet Protestants gasp if I say "my daughter saved me." In the Greek sense, she did, for her birth made me really think about my relationship with God, then repent.

So, in essence, the Protesters reserve the right to define terms.
I am not moved by such objections.

Definition of terms is of essence here. In the protestant thinking the beget a god you must be a god.

But you see, Mary did not "beget" Jesus' - she bore Him.

This is why we in the East refer to her by the name she was given at Chalcedon: Theotokos- the bearer of God.

To be the mother of a god then by definition means that she is a god. Since this is not the case, we take exception to the name 'Mother of God'. Mary was indeed the mother of Christ's humanity and that is where it ends.

I understand what you're saying, and I appreciate the spirit in which you register your concern. Of course, as I've explained above, we do not see Mary as a God or demi-god.

I am of utter agreement that Jesus was fully man and fully God, but only in the sense that the Son of God took on flesh to become man. By this then I can agree that Mary carried the baby that is the God-man, but I still take exception to her being the 'mother' of God, she wasn't but rather she was the mother of Christ in his humanity.

From what I read here, you appear to be in concord with Chalcedonian formula, which means that we are, in essence, on the same page. I understand your concern with the term 'Mother of God'- it is the same concern that I have with the expression 'sola scriptura.'

And I would have to disagree that 'saved' "has no specific reference to eternal judgement" because it does in the realm of theology.

Allow me please to rephrase so as to convey the meaning that I intended:
The term 'saved' does not necessarily refer directly to eternal judgement, and is not necessarily a past tense term.

Yes, the word can also mean rescue, or saved from physical harm. And yes, one can be said to have saved someone from eternal judgement in that they expounded the Gospel to them and they received it and thus became saved. The reason that there is a theological definition for the Greek word translated as 'saved' (from the Greek sozo) is not to define what it means in a general sense, but rather what it means in the theological sense. So, as a matter or theological debate, the very word 'saved' must have a definition other than 'rescued, preserved, made well, brought safely, cured' if only for the point of theological debate.

The English expression 'saved' is clearly past tense- yet we know that the scriptures speak of saved- as in saved from sin and death- in the past, present AND future tenses. The theological implications of saying "I am saved" are for many of us- even many Protestants- problematic. I am much more comfortable with the statement 'I am being saved.'

The other elements of the root term sos that you mentioned cannot either be dismissed in the eternal sense- unless one believes that salvation and justification are synonymous.

So, getting back to the reason of my post, definition is required, and in this instance, some common definition is required. Protestants (at least the very large majority of them) object to the honorific title 'Mother of God.' for the very simply reason that created beings only beget after their kind and man does not beget God. In order to beget God, you must be God and Mary is not God. Mary birthed a human baby in the person of Jesus, son of David. The Son of God took on flesh in the person of Jesus and it was the man that Mary was the mother of not the God. I can agree that Mary was the mother of the man that is God, but not to the God that became man and that is where our point of contention lies. We see the title Mother of God as Mary being the mother of the God who became man, not as the mother of the man who is God.

As I stated before, Mary did not beget Christ- she bore Him. But allow me to say that I am quite comfortable in an informal sense in using terminology that conveys shared meaning- at least with those who are interested in dialogue and mutual understanding- as opposed to those who wish only to attack, mud-sling, and stroke their own feeble egos.

Please understand the context of my earlier comments in the environment that they are given and in response to what had been said.

Warmly
James

 

[cj]

as opposed to those who wish only to attack, mud-sling, and stroke their own feeble egos.

"those who"......... and this is not?

You're as hypocritical as they come OC.



Anyway you look at it, the wickedness of Mary worship cannot be seperated from the false teaching of Mary being the mother of God.


Additionally, you show yourself utterly uncaring of any of the many who take this false and disgusting doctrine at face value.


Ahhh, yes OC,...... believe it or not, there are many who think that Mary is actually the Queen of the heavens, she who has absolute influence over her Son, who is God. And it starts by teaching them in a corruptly motivated manner,..... that Mary is just the mother of God.


In love,
cj

 

[Orthodox Christian]

as opposed to those who wish only to attack, mud-sling, and stroke their own feeble egos.

"those who"......... and this is not?

You're as hypocritical as they come OC.

I'm sorry, CJ, you seem to have taken this as if it was addressed to you personally. Perhaps this was due to the fact that you knew that you were attacking me, and expecting quid pro quo. This was not the case.

I have better things to do with my time, I assure you.

In point of fact, my reply was addressed to Diaconeo, and I was speaking in generalizations to him. If you fit within the bounds of those generalizations, I suggest you consider making some changes.

Additionally, you show yourself utterly uncaring of any of the many who take this false and disgusting doctrine at face value.


Ahhh, yes OC,...... believe it or not, there are many who think that Mary is actually the Queen of the heavens, she who has absolute influence over her Son, who is God. And it starts by teaching them in a corruptly motivated manner,..... that Mary is just the mother of God.

Correcting all of these heretics is a task I don't feel equipped to undertake, CJ. It requires a firm hand and a cold, calculating mind unencumbered by pangs of conscience and/or guilt. I leave this noble undertaking upon your big shoulders.

In toto
James

 

[Abiyah]

Oddly, you on one hand complain that I/we overstate Mary's prominence by giving her a title, and then you complain when I refer to her in plain terms (hero of faith). Of course we think of Mary as greater than Avraham- just as we think her greater than John the Baptist. Jesus made it clear that John was the greatest among those born of women, but the least of the Kingdom was greater than he.

I find it marvelously refreshing that in a faith so patriarchal as Christianity is, here is the proto-Saint, a woman. And not just one woman, but legions of women saints, "many who are referred to in our tradition" as "equal-to-the-Apostles." (eg Mary Magdalene, St Fotini aka the Samaritan woman, her sisters, Sts Katherine and Barbara the great martyrs)

Hello there !

You see that is the problem here... " YOUR TRADITIONS MAKE GOD'S WORD TO NON-EFFECT".... "YOUR TRADITIONS MAKE VOID THE WORD OF GOD. " God utilized His children in this world to do HIS WILL; He knew He could trust them, that includes the prophets, the apostles, and yes, even Mary the mother of Jesus; But non is greater than the other. However, to worship Mary, to pray to Mary was NOT commanded of God, but rather of men, it is angel worship and it is dangerous. Jesus Christ made it quit CLEAR that we are ALL FAMILY, that together we make up that multi-membered body of Christ. Me, You, Mary, Paul, John, etc. THOSE THAT DO HIS WILL ARE OF THE FAMILY OF GOD; His children. There was one time in particular when Christ was teaching, and His family wished to speak to Him, now within answering them he said this to show YOU who His True family is.


Matthew 12:48
"...... Who is my mother, and who are my brethren ? "[ And this question was not against his mother or his brothers... but rather
to teach you]


Matthew 12:49
" AND HE STRECHTED FORTH HIS HAND TOWARD HIS DISCIPLES [ not toward Mary and His brothers, but rather He is trying to teach You something here, listen to Jesus, and not man], AND SAID, Behold my mother and my brethren [ he's pointing to His disciples, those that are disciplined in the Word of God, He's saying here.. look at my mother and my brother, meaning His family, it's spiritual] "


Matthew 12:50
" FOR WHOSOEVER SHALL DO THE WILL OF MY FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN, THE SAME IS MY BROTHER, AND SISTER, MOTHER [Those that do His will are those that are of the family of God] . "


God is the Father of all, You, Me, Mary, Peter, Paul, John, Mark, Luke, etc. they are all His Children, THEY DO HIS WILL and together we all make up the family of God; don't get me wrong some of His children He chose, He elected them, because He knows He can count on them. And it is NOT our Father's will that you would pray to Mary, but that you talk to Him, in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, the same that died for your sins, only Christ can wash you clean, not Mary, or anyone else for that matter. He is the Bread of Life, He is the Living Water, He gives you eternal life, no one else can do this for you. God is NOT a respecter of persons, meaning He does not play favorites. Mary had a purpose on this earth, just as you have a purpose on this earth, and that is to DO THE WILL OF GOD., and to show Him that you Love Him. Don't worship that which God has created, but rather the creator, GOD !

Exodus 20:3
" Thou shalt have NO other god [small "g", includes goddess as well] before Me. " [ The very first commandment of God ]

Doing God's Will, is KEEPING HIS COMMANDMENTS. Amen ! [Amen= means "that is that"]

Abiyah

 

[bibleberean]

The Orthodox and Roman Catholic church has degenerated into idolatry by their traditions.

They pray to Mary (not the Mary of the bible) for protection and guidance instead of asking God.

Isaiah 46:5 To whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like?

Isaiah 46:6 They lavish gold out of the bag, and weigh silver in the balance, and hire a goldsmith; and he maketh it a god: they fall down, yea, they worship.

Isaiah 46:7 They bear him upon the shoulder, they carry him, and set him in his place, and he standeth; from his place shall he not remove: yea, one shall cry unto him, yet can he not answer, nor save him out of his trouble.

I would say that this is a real good reason not to call Mary "God's mother".

The scriptures don't...

Leviticus 19:4 Turn ye not unto idols, nor make to yourselves molten gods: I am the LORD your God.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Hello there !

You see that is the problem here... " YOUR TRADITIONS MAKE GOD'S WORD TO NON-EFFECT".... "YOUR TRADITIONS MAKE VOID THE WORD OF GOD. "

Really? How so? How is it that remembering the heroes of faith, as was done in Hebrews 11, the example I gave, make God's word null and void?

 

[bibleberean]

Calling Mary God's mother is not biblical.

Asking the Orthodox or Catholic Mary for protection or favor is idolatry.

"O Immaculate and wholly-pure Virgin Mary, Mother of God, Queen of the world, hope of those who are in despair: You are the joy of the saints; you are the peacemaker between sinners and God; you are the advocate of the abandoned, the secure haven of those who are on the sea of the world; you are the consolation of the world, the ransom of slaves, the comfortress of the afflicted...."

St. Ephrem
A Marian Prayer Book : A Treasury of Prayers, Hymns, and Meditations / edited by Pamela Moran Imprint Ann Arbor, Mich. : Servant Publications, c1991, BX2160.2 .M37 1991, p. 226


Just like the title "Mother of God" the rest of this prayer is blasphemous.

Jesus is the hope of those who are in despair.

Jesus is the joy of true saints.

Jesus alone made peace between sinners and God.

Jesus alone is our advocate.

Jesus alone is our refuge.

Jesus alone is our comforter.

Jesus alone paid our ransom.

Remembering those in the bible who had faith is not the same as worshiping the devil gods of the Catholic and Orthodox church.

These men died in faith looking unto the only Saviour, Jesus Christ.

They are examples given to us of men and women who put their faith in God.

Hebrews 11:24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;

Hebrews 11:25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;

Hebrews 11:26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.

Hebrews 11:27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.

 

[Abiyah]

Really? How so? How is it that remembering the heroes of faith, as was done in Hebrews 11, the example I gave, make God's word null and void?

Hi there Christian, ( This is kinda of long letter I've written you, please bare with me )

Let me just speak from the heart if I may...... This thread is titled " Why NOT call Mary the mother of God and QUEEN OF HEAVEN." Okay first let me say, that when I hear this, when I see people praying to Mary it greatly saddens my heart to the point that I could weep, to watch those who Love God be deceived and lead astray. This is a truth, exaulting Mary to a level nearly equal to God is very, very dangerous !!! What I wrote in my last post to you, I did it because I don't want to see you deceived by the traditions of men anymore, but I'd rather plant a seed of truth in your mind so that you can listen to what God has told you, and NOT man.

I am not being harsh Christian, but rather gentle when I say to you COME OUT OF CONFUSION. Show me in the Bible where Christ told YOU to pray to Mary, show me in the Word of God where Jesus Christ, the Messiah told YOU to make images of her and to bow a knee to her ? All I want you to do is THINK !! Think spiritually, your spirit is the intellect of your soul, in no wise did your Lord, and Saviour Jesus Christ ever teach you to do these things, man did. Christ WARNED YOU, HE TOLD YOU TO TAKE HEED LEST ANY MAN DECEIVE YOU, FOR MANY SHALL COME IN MY NAME, SAYING I AM A CHRISTIAN= A FOLLOWER OF CHRIST, AND DECEIVE MANY; not maybe, not perhaps, but they SHALL come and deceive many, not few, but MANY ! [Mark 13:5] Listen to Him !

If you would just read the Word for yourself,and put away all of mans literature and traditions, put that aside now and READ God's Word only! Listen, anyone that teaches you to do something other than what God has asked you to do is a FALSE TEACHER, even if they do do it in ignorance. Example. when someone teaches you that you MUST say 12 Hail Mary's for this or that.... That is False Doctrine, that is just like the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees. Christ told YOU be careful of that, that leaven being false doctrines, leaven is yeast and it spreads through the loaf of bread, just the same wat as false doctrine spreads, and spreads ! Are you a disciple of Christ or not ? Then do that what He has instructed you to do, for HE IS THE WAY, the ONLY WAY !

You should be doing God's Will, right ? Christ said "FOLLOW ME"... Do you Love Him ? Then follow Him and Him alone and YOU will NEVER be lead astray, you will never go wrong.

Hebrews chapter 11, is teaching you about faith, the faith of those that God utilized to fufill HIS WILL, chapter 11 is teaching you about those that DID GOD'S WILL ! You should follow their examples no doubt. Why ? because they HAD FAITH IN GOD ! Not in Mary, not in one another BUT IN GOD, YOUR FATHER, your true Father, your closest of kin, Him that knows you better than anyone else, Him that created your very being, GIVE HIM THE PRAISE, He loves you, you are His child. He wants your Love to Him More than anything else [ Hosea 6:6-Mercy in this verse means Love]

Christian.... basically, "IF" you will read the Word of God for yourself, THEN you will SEE that if it is NOT WRITTEN, IT IS NOT SO; like praying to Mary, it is NOT WRITTEN. See what I'm saying ? And "IF" you chose to listen to individuals or groups that claim to be Christian, then test their fruit, Christ told you that YOU SHALL KNOW THEM BY THEIR FRUIT. Meaning if they DO NOT teach GOD'S WORD chapter by chapter, verse by verse, line by line, precept by precept, THEY ARE VILE FRUIT, and you should NOT eat it. [by eat it , I mean take it in as truth] You've got to come into the Light, You've got to walk in the Light, that LIGHT is GOD'S TRUTH, HIS WORD, He is the Light !! Don't walk in darkness, the darkness being lies and deception for you are a child of Light, " IF" you LOVE GOD !

I will leave you with this Scripture, that God has told YOU Christian, Listen to Him, and think about it, THINK ! Listen, please !

Matthew 7:13-14
" Enter ye in at the straight gate; FOR WIDE IS THE GATE. AND BROAD IS THE WAY, THAT LEADETH TO DESTRUCTION, AND MANY [how many ? many!] THERE BE WHICH GO IN THERE AT; [why ?] BEACUSE STRAIGHT IS THE GATE, AND NARROW IS THE WAY, WHICH LEADETH UNTO LIFE, AND FEW THERE BE THAT FIND IT." [beware of fake teachers and fake preacher, beware of the traditions of men, because even though they appear to be good or holy, they take you further and further away from God's Truth; They LOOK like sheep, harmless; but inwardly they are raving wolves; and MANY follow them, that is why this path is wide & broad, because they don't follow Christ, but rather they find pleasure in false doctrine, false teaching, and the traditions of men. Think ! Think spiritually ! ]

Christian, read God's Word for yourself, chapter by chapter, verse by verse and may the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.

: Abiyah

 

[cj]

[quote="Orthodox Christian":1741b]as opposed to those who wish only to attack, mud-sling, and stroke their own feeble egos.

"those who"......... and this is not?

You're as hypocritical as they come OC.

I'm sorry, CJ, you seem to have taken this as if it was addressed to you personally.[/quote:1741b]

Oh get over yourself OC, do you think we don't know you and your sillyness by now.

Based on a logical deduction of your prior words, the conclusion is quite valid.

Pretty cool huh, just like your pompous speaking OC.

Perhaps this was due to the fact that you knew that you were attacking me, and expecting quid pro quo. This was not the case.

Nah, your prior history my boy, your prior history.

I have better things to do with my time, I assure you.

Bully for you,..... go do them.

In point of fact, my reply was addressed to Diaconeo, and I was speaking in generalizations to him. If you fit within the bounds of those generalizations, I suggest you consider making some changes.

You worship statues and apostate institutions, do you really think I'd heed your advice?

Correcting all of these heretics is a task I don't feel equipped to undertake, CJ. It requires a firm hand and a cold, calculating mind unencumbered by pangs of conscience and/or guilt. I leave this noble undertaking upon your big shoulders.

Aahhh yes,...... what would an OC post be without the hypocritical spin.


In love,
cj

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Really? How so? How is it that remembering the heroes of faith, as was done in Hebrews 11, the example I gave, make God's word null and void?

Hi there Christian, ( This is kinda of long letter I've written you, please bare with me )

Let me just speak from the heart if I may...... This thread is titled " Why NOT call Mary the mother of God and QUEEN OF HEAVEN." Okay first let me say, that when I hear this, when I see people praying to Mary it greatly saddens my heart to the point that I could weep, to watch those who Love God be deceived and lead astray. This is a truth, exaulting Mary to a level nearly equal to God is very, very dangerous !!! What I wrote in my last post to you, I did it because I don't want to see you deceived by the traditions of men anymore, but I'd rather plant a seed of truth in your mind so that you can listen to what God has told you, and NOT man.

Thank you for your expression of concern- as misguided as it is, I sense it is sincere. I say misguided because you have misperceived the veneration of Mary and the Saints and because you have no idea how much study, prayer, and suffering has undergirded my walk with Christ, including my journey to the ancient apostolic faith.

I am not being harsh Christian, but rather gentle when I say to you COME OUT OF CONFUSION. Show me in the Bible where Christ told YOU to pray to Mary, show me in the Word of God where Jesus Christ, the Messiah told YOU to make images of her and to bow a knee to her ? All I want you to do is THINK !! Think spiritually, your spirit is the intellect of your soul, in no wise did your Lord, and Saviour Jesus Christ ever teach you to do these things, man did.

There is not space here for a formal exegesis and exposition on the topic of proskeneo veneration, but I assure you I have examined this matter biblically and historically.

Christ WARNED YOU, HE TOLD YOU TO TAKE HEED LEST ANY MAN DECEIVE YOU, FOR MANY SHALL COME IN MY NAME, SAYING I AM A CHRISTIAN= A FOLLOWER OF CHRIST, AND DECEIVE MANY; not maybe, not perhaps, but they SHALL come and deceive many, not few, but MANY ! [Mark 13:5] Listen to Him !

Actually, He said that many would claim "I am anointed." We see that happening in large part in these latter days, since every man and his bible assure you that they have the true revelation of the scriptures, that God has spoken to them and illumined them and sent them. But Jesus appointed Twelve, and said that matters would be judged by THE CHURCH, not some guy claiming anointing. He said wherever 2 or 3 are gathered in His Name- not 2 or 3 gathered with a bible.

The deceivers are those who do not come through the Gate, but climb over the fence and woo sheep to leave the flock. Jesus clearly said these are FALSE SHEPHERDS.

If you would just read the Word for yourself,and put away all of mans literature and traditions, put that aside now and READ God's Word only!

I have been reading holy scripture since I was 8 years of age, 35 years now. I read it constantly. There was never a time when I did so where I was not at once mindful of what I had heard about the passage, simultaneously listening to what the Spirit was speaking to me about the passage

Listen, anyone that teaches you to do something other than what God has asked you to do is a FALSE TEACHER, even if they do do it in ignorance.

Yes, but when they do it with a kind intent, as you are, I smile and say thank you- sincerely.

Example. when someone teaches you that you MUST say 12 Hail Mary's for this or that.... That is False Doctrine, that is just like the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees. Christ told YOU be careful of that, that leaven being false doctrines, leaven is yeast and it spreads through the loaf of bread, just the same wat as false doctrine spreads, and spreads ! Are you a disciple of Christ or not ? Then do that what He has instructed you to do, for HE IS THE WAY, the ONLY WAY !

We have no such tradition or practice. We do not attempt to do acts to atone for sins that only Christ could and has.

You should be doing God's Will, right ? Christ said "FOLLOW ME"... Do you Love Him ? Then follow Him and Him alone and YOU will NEVER be lead astray, you will never go wrong.

Why then does the scripture say ALL we like sheep have gone astray? Because we all do. All turn aside, none are righteous. Anyone who says they have not sin is a liar, and the truth is not in them. BUT if we confess our missing of the mark (hamartia/sin), He is faithful to forgive our sin, to heal us, and to cleanse us. I suggest, my friend, that you give a closer view to the whole counsel, and a more honest assessment of your own shortcomings. God gives grace to the humble. He rewards those who seek Him diligently.

Be careful also before giving advice to those who have sacrificed and suffered for the Lord. You may be well advised to listen.

Back when I was a young Evangelical, full of zeal and passion, I became concerned about my aged grandparents, who were Lutheran- ie, not born again, not "saved" according to many. In my concern for their eternal souls, I witnessed to and at them. They were gracious and kind and remained Lutheran and unmoved by my Evangelical fervor.

Over time I came to see the faith that they had and have, which has been unmovable and unshakable. I saw how they live what Christ taught. And when I listened, I discovered that they really did witness Christ, just not in my manner.

Years later, when I had come to the Orthodox faith, they were still Lutheran, still caring for family friends and neighbors, still the most welcoming home in their town, and still married at 64 years. My grandfather has since went home to his reward- may his memory be eternal- but I assure you, he had much more to teach me about God than I ever did he.

Hebrews chapter 11, is teaching you about faith, the faith of those that God utilized to fufill HIS WILL, chapter 11 is teaching you about those that DID GOD'S WILL ! You should follow their examples no doubt. Why ? because they HAD FAITH IN GOD ! Not in Mary, not in one another BUT IN GOD, YOUR FATHER, your true Father, your closest of kin, Him that knows you better than anyone else, Him that created your very being, GIVE HIM THE PRAISE, He loves you, you are His child. He wants your Love to Him More than anything else [ Hosea 6:6-Mercy in this verse means Love]

Hebrews 11 actually teaches about faith in action, faith personified, not faith as some abstract intellectual concept or spiritual sounding term.

Christian.... basically, "IF" you will read the Word of God for yourself, THEN you will SEE that if it is NOT WRITTEN, IT IS NOT SO;
like praying to Mary, it is NOT WRITTEN. See what I'm saying ? And "IF" you chose to listen to individuals or groups that claim to be Christian, then test their fruit, Christ told you that YOU SHALL KNOW THEM BY THEIR FRUIT. Meaning if they DO NOT teach GOD'S WORD chapter by chapter, verse by verse, line by line, precept by precept, THEY ARE VILE FRUIT, and you should NOT eat it. [by eat it , I mean take it in as truth] You've got to come into the Light, You've got to walk in the Light, that LIGHT is GOD'S TRUTH, HIS WORD, He is the Light !! Don't walk in darkness, the darkness being lies and deception for you are a child of Light, " IF" you LOVE GOD !

I will leave you with this Scripture, that God has told YOU Christian, Listen to Him, and think about it, THINK ! Listen, please !

Matthew 7:13-14
" Enter ye in at the straight gate; FOR WIDE IS THE GATE. AND BROAD IS THE WAY, THAT LEADETH TO DESTRUCTION, AND MANY [how many ? many!] THERE BE WHICH GO IN THERE AT; [why ?] BEACUSE STRAIGHT IS THE GATE, AND NARROW IS THE WAY, WHICH LEADETH UNTO LIFE, AND FEW THERE BE THAT FIND IT." [beware of fake teachers and fake preacher, beware of the traditions of men, because even though they appear to be good or holy, they take you further and further away from God's Truth; They LOOK like sheep, harmless; but inwardly they are raving wolves; and MANY follow them, that is why this path is wide & broad, because they don't follow Christ, but rather they find pleasure in false doctrine, false teaching, and the traditions of men. Think ! Think spiritually ! ]

Christian, read God's Word for yourself, chapter by chapter, verse by verse and may the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.

: Abiyah

Thank you, Abiyah, the irony of this is that I left behind what I believe to be false teaching. I did so on the basis of my own study of scripture and of history. I commend to you the same commendation you proferred to me.

 

[cj]

Revelation 3:17,

"Because you say, I am wealthy and have become rich and have need of nothing, and do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,

I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined by fire that you may be rich, and white garments that you may be clothed and that the shame of your nakedness may not be manifested, and eyesalve to anoint your eyes that you may see. Because you say, I am wealthy and have become rich and have need of nothing, and do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,"


How poor we are when in the pursuit of our preferences we come to accept and tolerate division amongst the body.

How discouraging it was for the leading apostles to see the body divided, yet how some who claim oneness with the way of these apostles seem content to abide within a divided body.



These are those who have become "wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked," for they have no clue as to the desire and will of our Lord, and thus have gone astray, having no idea of what the reality of a righteous and holy life is.


In love,
cj

 

[Abiyah]

Hi there Christian !

Well, what can I say ? I tryed.... However, I did want to respond to your claim that " .... I have misperceived the VENERATION of Mary and the saints ... ". Can you help me with one thing ? " IF" it seems as though I have a misunderstanding with this , then Define Veneration ? As a matter of fact allow me.

Veneration: The act of venerating; To venerate is to regard with reverential respect or with admiring deference; TO HONOR (AS AN ICON OR A RELIC) WITH A RITUAL ACT OF DEVOTION; To revere.

I think my misperception rests in that I was under the impression that we were to ONLY revere God, to ONLY honor God, I was not aware that we also are to honor and revere Mary, and the saints as well.. so in that you are correct, I do misperceive the acts of venerating Mary and the saints. Because doing anything other than reverencing & honoring God is transgressing the very first commandments of God; it's that simple ! [Exodus 20:3-5] And again I need not tell you what transgression of God's Law is, because you already know, you have been studying God's Word since you were 8. [ I John 3:4 ]

Also, you seemed to politely call me a "false teacher".. hmmmm. No, I am not a teacher. Although, I do tend to plant seeds, you know... the seed is God's Word; as in the Parable of the Sower, sowing the Word of God, which is His Truth. But AGAIN, I need not explain it to you, as you have been reading the Word of God since the age of 8, so therefore you already know and understand the parable in Matthew 13, anyway Christ explained the Parable to His diciples in great detail later in the chapter.

Oh yea.... lol lol lol; when I said that when you follow Jesus Christ as He has instructed us to do that you would NEVER be lead astray, and that you would never go wrong; Ummmm... I was talking about deception, I was talking about being deceived by false doctrine, I was talking about being lead astray by the traditions of men, which lead you AWAY from God's Word. I would think you would know how to stick to the subject of a matter; as I was NOT TALKING ABOUT SIN ! Of course we all for short from time to time. For I do know that NO MAN (mankind, no gender intended) is not without sin, as it is written.

Ecclesiastes 7:20
" For there is NOT a just man upon the earth, that doeth good, and SINNETH NOT. " [ yes.. everyone falls short and sinneth from time to time, I do know this.]

And with regards to Hebrews chapter 11 you stated that I find the chapter to be talking about "not faith as some abstract intellectual concept or spiritual sounding term. " Hmmmmm ? What are you talking about ? I can tell you what is doesn't say; it doesn't advice us to "venerate" them.

Anyway Christian, I will say no more to you with regards to the worshiping of Mary, or calling her queen of heaven I say it's wrong, you say it's right... I know who is right, and I know who is wrong regarding this practice. You must believe as you are lead to believe, and I must believe as I am lead to believe. I don't think much of denominations, for denominations cause religious division, however Christianity is NOT a religion, it's a reality, the reality is found ONLY in God's Word and not man's instructions; but you already know this... right ?

Abiyah