Why not call Mary the mother of God and Queen of heaven

[Abiyah]

CJ.... ?

Revelation 3:17,
"Because you say, I am wealthy and have become rich and have need of nothing, and do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,

I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined by fire that you may be rich, and white garments that you may be clothed and that the shame of your nakedness may not be manifested, and eyesalve to anoint your eyes that you may see. Because you say, I am wealthy and have become rich and have need of nothing, and do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,"

How poor we are when in the pursuit of our preferences we come to accept and tolerate division amongst the body.

How discouraging it was for the leading apostles to see the body divided, yet how some who claim oneness with the way of these apostles seem content to abide within a divided body.

These are those who have become "wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked," for they have no clue as to the desire and will of our Lord, and thus have gone astray, having no idea of what the reality of a righteous and holy life is.
In love,
cj

Yes Cj... I hear and understand that which you have said here.

: Abiyah

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Hi there Christian !

Well, what can I say ? I tryed.... However, I did want to respond to your claim that " .... I have misperceived the VENERATION of Mary and the saints ... ". Can you help me with one thing ? " IF" it seems as though I have a misunderstanding with this , then Define Veneration ? As a matter of fact allow me.

Veneration: The act of venerating; To venerate is to regard with reverential respect or with admiring deference; TO HONOR (AS AN ICON OR A RELIC) WITH A RITUAL ACT OF DEVOTION; To revere.

I think my misperception rests in that I was under the impression that we were to ONLY revere God, to ONLY honor God, I was not aware that we also are to honor and revere Mary, and the saints as well.. so in that you are correct, I do misperceive the acts of venerating Mary and the saints. Because doing anything other than reverencing & honoring God is transgressing the very first commandments of God; it's that simple ! [Exodus 20:3-5] And again I need not tell you what transgression of God's Law is, because you already know, you have been studying God's Word since you were 8. [ I John 3:4 ]

Thank you, Abiyah, your disagreement with me is most cordial and respectful. Allow me to say that I have not ceased to learn of God's Laws and Statutes, for as it is written "Blessed are O Lord, teach me your statutes."

Regarding reverence and honor:
To God alone is given worship.
Honor is commanded, biblically, from us to our parents, to those in civil authority, to those who teach us the word, to spouses, and to one another in general. The very same veneration I give Mary, I give my children.

Let me break this down in a biblical manner:
There are numerous incidents of people bowing before one another in the scriptures- take for example Jacob before Esau or Jacob's children bowing before Joseph (proskeneo- paying honor, perhaps even deep respect). To God alone is given Latreia worship, which is accompanied by proastrations (on our face). I would NEVER give Latreia worship to anyone but the Most High God. I give proskeneo before my wife, my children- for they are made in the image and likeness of God.
Besides, I have found that those who wish to receive heartfelt honor must first give it.

Also, you seemed to politely call me a "false teacher".. hmmmm. No, I am not a teacher.

Please allow me to clarify: I do not think of you as a 'false teacher.' Rather, I see you as someon with an opinion/opinions that differ from mine.

Oh yea.... lol lol lol; when I said that when you follow Jesus Christ as He has instructed us to do that you would NEVER be lead astray, and that you would never go wrong; Ummmm... I was talking about deception, I was talking about being deceived by false doctrine, I was talking about being lead astray by the traditions of men, which lead you AWAY from God's Word. I would think you would know how to stick to the subject of a matter; as I was NOT TALKING ABOUT SIN !

Fair enough- although it is written that the deceit in the Last Days will be such a strong delusion as to even deceive the Elect, if it were possible..

And with regards to Hebrews chapter 11 you stated that I find the chapter to be talking about "not faith as some abstract intellectual concept or spiritual sounding term. " Hmmmmm ? What are you talking about ? I can tell you what is doesn't say; it doesn't advice us to "venerate" them.

I see the writing of that chapter as, at least in part, an act of veneration/honor. "Of whom the world was not worthy" is what was written about the heroes of faith- or as the NLT renders it

They were too good for this world

Anyway Christian, I will say no more to you with regards to the worshiping of Mary, or calling her queen of heaven I say it's wrong, you say it's right... I know who is right, and I know who is wrong regarding this practice. You must believe as you are lead to believe, and I must believe as I am lead to believe. I don't think much of denominations, for denominations cause religious division, however Christianity is NOT a religion, it's a reality, the reality is found ONLY in God's Word and not man's instructions; but you already know this... right ?

Abiyah

That's cool. As I said, I/we prefer to call Mary 'Theotokos'- a term which translates in a more agreeable way in English, anyway.
We must each follow the dictates of our conscience and the leading of the Spirit as best we understand and with all our being. Best wishes to you, and thank you for the agreeable disagreement.
James

 

[bibleberean]

This topic seems to degenerate into worthless arguments between egos or back patting.

This is the issue...

Should we call Mary the Mother of God or the Queen of heaven?
That is the subject.

God has no mother. So, no we should not call her God's mother. The title Queen of heaven is only found in one place in the bible...and that is the OT.

What saith the scriptures?

Jeremiah 7:17 Seest thou not what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem?

Jeremiah 7:18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.

Jeremiah 7:19 Do they provoke me to anger? saith the LORD: do they not provoke themselves to the confusion of their own faces?

You see! There is a queen of heaven in the bible. God is not pleased when His people worship this devil!

The prophet Jeremiah warned the people not to worship this goddess but the people refused to listen!

Jeremiah 44:16 As for the word that thou hast spoken unto us in the name of the LORD, we will not hearken unto thee.

Jeremiah 44:17 But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil.

Giving unscriptural titles and attributes to people in the bible leads to confusion and idolatry.

Leviticus 19:4 Turn ye not unto idols, nor make to yourselves molten gods: I am the LORD your God.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

This topic seems to degenerate into worthless arguments between egos or back patting.

This is the issue...

Should we call Mary the Mother of God or the Queen of heaven?
That is the subject.

God has no mother. So, no we should not call her God's mother. The title Queen of heaven is only found in one place in the bible...and that is the OT.

What saith the scriptures?

Jeremiah 7:17 Seest thou not what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem?

Jeremiah 7:18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.

Jeremiah 7:19 Do they provoke me to anger? saith the LORD: do they not provoke themselves to the confusion of their own faces?

You see! There is a queen of heaven in the bible. God is not pleased when His people worship this devil!

The prophet Jeremiah warned the people not to worship this goddess but the people refused to listen!

Jeremiah 44:16 As for the word that thou hast spoken unto us in the name of the LORD, we will not hearken unto thee.

Jeremiah 44:17 But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil.

Giving unscriptural titles and attributes to people in the bible leads to confusion and idolatry.

Leviticus 19:4 Turn ye not unto idols, nor make to yourselves molten gods: I am the LORD your God.

In point of fact, my last post dealt specifically with why Mary is called the God-bearer, and why the title Mother of God probably is unwieldly between Protestants and the Orthodox and/or Catholic.

So I've already presented an Orthodox apologetic on the topic, and since now this thread will depart from CJ making personal attacks on me, and will instead degenerate into you repeating old posts and verses- much of the content having been covered in my earlier posts- I recuse myself from the topic.

Have a nice one-dimensional discussion. :D

OC

 

[Heidi]

There is absolutely no point in venerating Mary. None. She cannot save us, nor is venerating her biblical in any way. It is simply idol-worshipping for the sake of idol-worshipping. That is for the pagans. If they want to do that, then they can join the ranks of other pagans. But those of us who believe Jesus when he says he is the only way to God spend our time deepening our relationship with only him in prayer.

 

[Orthodoxy]

Since I personally have limited time to read posts and respond I would like to enter the fray with comments to stir the pot as it were. Refute the claims of the Church and It's Holy Bible as anyone sees fit but I assure each of you that the Holy Spirit through His Church is speaking not I myself. I am certain James has made good testimony of the Holy Orthodox Church and the Christian faith set forth.

My motive is simple: that one be saved even though I will be lost.

May the Lord Jesus Christ have mercy on me a sinner that has defamed and demeaned His mother. Shame upon me that spat upon her image. God have mercy on me a sinner that hate entered my heart with malice towards Mary with a passionless passion. God have mercy on me.

With that said:

Christians call the Holy Virgin Mary the Mother of God (from the Greek, Theotokos: literally, the "Birth giver of God") because it is Scriptural:

The righteous Elizabeth filled with the HOLY SPIRIT addressed the Virgin Mary with these words: "And whence is this to me, that the Mother of my Lord should come to me?" (Luke 1:43).

Who is this "Lord" of which Elizabeth speaks by the Holy Spirit of God? It is Christ, the Lord God.

For this reason true Christians say, correctly, that the Virgin Mary is the Mother of God. She is not the Mother of God the Father nor of the Holy Trinity, but the Mother of God the Son, who is begotten by the Father before all ages, and took flesh from the Virgin Mary.

If one says Jesus is a mere man as the heathen and pagans state then Mary is merely “Anthropotokosâ€Â. If one says Jesus is merely a man that God has bestowed a special spirit (the Christ spirit) or "God made Jesus with a christ spirit") as the heretics and apostates state then Mary is merely “Christotokosâ€Â.

But if Mary gave birth to Jesus Christ, a christians Lord and God, then Mary is “Theotokos†or "God Bearerâ€Â. To say Mary, the “Theotokos†is NOT the Mother of God is to deny the divine nature of Jesus Christ Himself!

Acts 1:14, These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus (God), and with his brethren.

Just as true Christians insist on the virgin birth of Jesus Christ, we must also insist that for nine months Mary carried Jesus in His full humanity, He was at every moment fully God as well. The Church says boldly and with great insistence that Mary is the Mother of God, Theotokos, true God Bearer.

To say anything less is to side with those that deny the Divine Nature of Jesus Christ. These impieous men would strip Jesus Christ of His Holy vesture and divide His Garments! The Church sets a firm and non-negotiable fence around the Divinity of Jesus Christ by our unmovable confession that Mary is the Mother of God.

In calling Jesus Christ "the first born of many brethren". He is said by even the heterodox to be our “elder brother†as "true Christians".

If this is true, my dear lost protestant brothers and sisters, then Jesus is our brother. If, my dear friends, Jesus Christ is our claimed brother then Mary, His mother, is our spiritual mother. There is no way around this fact as a christian! If the Body of Christ is "the Church" then Mary is the mother of the Church. Every Christian confesses Mary the mother of Jesus Christ as their mother in the Christian faith. Just as Eve is the mother of all fallen humanity so to is Mary the mother of all who claim to be in the Body of Christ, the Redeemed Church, both in Heaven and on the Earth.

Luke 1:38, And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word.

Here Mary, in her own free will, accepts Jesus Christ to literally come into her Life! God does not force Himself on man. God could not use just any woman. Mary was of a royal line and groomed over generations to be the vessel God would use for the incarnation of His Son. If Mary does not say “yes†to God man has no salvation, period. Mary is the first person in history to receive and accept Jesus Christ as her savior! The first Christian. The Church calls Mary the FIRST OF THE REDEEMED! She is the prototype Christian! Mary is the model for Christian service and devotion.

There is so much more known about this woman. A pillar of the Christian faith. Dear friends let us not dishonor and demean the mother of the person we claim as our Savior. This is the mother of Jesus Christ. Would anyone take this type of abuse defending their own physical mother? I would say not.

I submit:

If one cannot respect the mother of Jesus Christ then that person is not a friend of the Christian faith.

As stated by one greater than, I a worm.

Ignatius in a letter to Apostle John. Ignatius is a 1st Century Christian Martyr and Student of John the Beloved. This man knew Mary personally.

He states:

If thou (Apostle John, his spiritual father) wilt give me (Ignatius) leave, I desire to go up to Jerusalem, and see the faithful saints who are there, especially Mary the mother, whom they report to be AN OBJECT OF ADMERATION and of AFFECTION TO ALL. For who would not rejoice to behold and to address her who bore the TRUE GOD from her own womb, provided he is a friend of our faith and religion?

answer: Enemies of God

Let us be friends of God by repenting of the hate for Mary, the mother.

Orthodoxy

 

[Orthodoxy]

Jesus Christ is not divisible. His Divine and Human natures were both unmixed and inseparable. Had it been otherwise, He would have been INDEED two creatures.

I find it fascinating that no one objects to Abraham being called the 'father of faith.' Perhaps that is because Abraham was a man, and thus no threat to the latent misogyny that permeates every fiber of Western man??

Was Mary the bearer of God? Indeed, He who Is and cannot be contained in the entire universe existed within the womb of a simple, fathful girl.
Was Mary the mother of God? In English, strictly speaking, in the manner that Protestants think, no.
She was the mother of He who is God.

But the hair-splitting by Protestants on this issue goes beyond translation, and into authority- as in authority to define terms and thus define theology.
Case in point: saved. The Greek term translated 'save' or 'saved' has no specific reference to eternal judgement- yet Protestants gasp if I say "my daughter saved me." In the Greek sense, she did, for her birth made me really think about my relationship with God, then repent.

So, in essence, the Protesters reserve the right to define terms.
I am not moved by such objections.

BINGO! "Authority" a simple word that sounds like nails on a caulk board to the heterodox. Authority! What authority does any one person have to refute the corperate authoritative body of Jesus Christ? None.

Fact is this: Jesus Christ clearly commanded true Christians in Matthew 18 to "tell it to the Church" as a "final authoritative act" in solving disputes between members within the common unity of the Body, the Church. The Church according to Jesus Christ is the final authority. Some will say the bible is final yet it is merely a tool used by the Church to help settle issues within the body. The bible was never meant to be used outside the corperate body of the Church for the simple reason it becomes an idol like the scripture did for the Pharisees and Scribes. Truely in this day the Scribes and Pharisees can be seen in the thought that scripture alone is the final authority in a Christians life.

Anti authority is anti Christ.

In Christ,

Orthodoxy

 

[Orthodoxy]

Jesus Himself showed that the intercession of the Virgin Mary is special by performing His first miracle at her request even before the time had come for Him to begin manifesting His miraculous power:

"And when they ran out of wine, the mother of Jesus said to Him, "They have no wine." Jesus said to her, "Woman, what does your concern have to do with Me? My hour has not yet come." His mother said to the servants, "Whatever He says to you, do it."" "This beginning of signs Jesus did in Cana of Galilee, and manifested His glory; and His disciples believed in Him." John 2:3-4,11.

Mind you, this miracle also seems to foretell how the heretics will be separated from the Church of God - for most neither believe in the true blessedness of the Ever-Virgin Mary or the Holy Communion in which the wine is changed to the Blood of our Lord, as this miracle, done at the special request of His Blessed Mother, foreshadows!

Certainly Jesus commanded us to pray for one an other as "Christians" but He commands us to pray for our enemies! Intercessory pray for your enemy! What a novel idea by Jesus Christ Himself!

Jesus praying for Peter:

But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren. Luke 22:32


Jesus praying to the Father for the Aposltes:

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; John 14:16

At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you: John 16:26

I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. John 17:9

Jesus prays for His Church:

Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; John 17:20

So we have estabished that Jesus made intercessory prayer for others even His enemy while on the Cross. Do I need to quote that verse also?

Obviously prayer for others was an intregal part of the life Jesus Christ lived on the Earth. Fact of the matter is prayer is a command of Jesus Christ in which He said "when you pray".

So if Jesus prays for others then so must His Church for the body and head are not divided. Examples before us in the bible:

And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen, Acts 1:24

And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. Acts 2:24

And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness. Acts 4:31

It is plain the "Body" prayed together always for guidance in unity of the common Church. So it is estabished the early Church "prayed". Did they pray for each other?

Whom they set before the apostles: and when they had prayed, they laid their hands on them. Acts 6:6

Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: Acts 8:15

Peter therefore was kept in prison: but prayer was made without ceasing of the church unto God for him. Acts 12:5.

And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed. Acts 14:23.

What can possibly be the issue with prayer in the Church? Did not Jesus state His House is a House of Prayer? The Church prayed for Peter without ceasing, intercessory prayer. How can people that claim the christian faith be so arrogant and vile against prayer to the God they claim they worship? Shame on the protestant preacher that is lying!

Paul is seen making intercessory prayer and asking for prayers over and over again:

For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers; Romans 1:9

Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
Ephesians 1:16.

We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers; 1 Thessilonians 1:2.

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Thessilonians 5:23.

Is Paul now in deep error making mention of someone in his prayers?

Paul prays for all Israel:

Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. Romans 10:1

Paul prays to others for prayer? No Paul asks others to pray for him.

Now I beseech you, brethren, for the Lord Jesus Christ's sake, and for the love of the Spirit, that ye strive together with me in your prayers to God for me; Romans 15:30

Withal praying also for us, that God would open unto us a door of utterance, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in bonds:
Colossians 4:3

Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you: 2 Thessilonians 3:1

James exhorts the true Christian:

Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. James 5:14-16.

Maybe this is why the heterodox experiance no healing because they refuse to prayer for one another. The heterodox will not humble themselves, admit they need prayers of the saints to be healed. Does pray for one another mean anything in the heterodox world of chaos and confusion? Is the prayer of the Pharisee the trademark of the protestant faith? " O God, make that sinner over there see things my way" This is a prayer I hear often from the protestant lips:

I say to you COME OUT OF CONFUSION

as if they have the keys to the Kingdom!

Revelation 5:8
And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Revelation 8:3
And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

Revelation 8:4
And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

Anyone who rejects the "prayers of the saints" is not going to like heaven. Perhaps this will be hell for the heterodox:

Mary and the Prayers of the Saints. The incense will be stentch to their nostils.

For shame.

Orthodoxy

 

[D46]

1Cor 14:38 (KJV) But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

http://www.ianpaisley.org/article.asp?ArtKey=mary1
http://www.ianpaisley.org/article.asp?ArtKey=mary2
http://jesus-is-lord.com/mary.htm
http://jesus-is-lord.com/coredeem.htm
http://www.remnantofgod.org/godmary.htm

 

[BradtheImpaler]

There is so much more known about this woman. A pillar of the Christian faith. Dear friends let us not dishonor and demean the mother of the person we claim as our Savior. This is the mother of Jesus Christ. Would anyone take this type of abuse defending their own physical mother? I would say not

First of all, your opponents here are not dishonoring or abusing Mary. They simply refuse to elevate her to the ridiculously unscriptural level that you do.

Secondly, if anything, the gospel accounts show Jesus treating Mary with an attitude that DOES come very close to demeaning/dishonor. He apparently considered her a NAG who "didn't have a clue".

 

[CatholicXian]

Secondly, if anything, the gospel accounts show Jesus treating Mary with an attitude that DOES come very close to demeaning/dishonor. He apparently considered her a NAG who "didn't have a clue".

What about the Commandment to "honor one's mother and father"? Did Jesus then break that?
Where do you see Jesus considering His mother as a "nag who didn't have a clue"? :smt102

 

[Orthodoxy]

There is so much more known about this woman. A pillar of the Christian faith. Dear friends let us not dishonor and demean the mother of the person we claim as our Savior. This is the mother of Jesus Christ. Would anyone take this type of abuse defending their own physical mother? I would say not

First of all, your opponents here are not dishonoring or abusing Mary. They simply refuse to elevate her to the ridiculously unscriptural level that you do.

Secondly, if anything, the gospel accounts show Jesus treating Mary with an attitude that DOES come very close to demeaning/dishonor. He apparently considered her a NAG who "didn't have a clue".

It would appear that your version of Jesus Broken the 5th commandment. This is merely one reason why your version of Jesus is a fraud, a fake, a misrepresentation. Your version of jesus is a sinner and cannot save anyone, certainly not me. Protestant whiners calling Mary a "nag", what an absolute joke. You are a "christian"? Why should I believe in your version of Jesus over that which has always been understood by the age old Church?

Tell me who is Jesus Christ's mother in this verse:

Luke 1:38, And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word.

Is this not Mary submitting to the Will of God and doing it? Yes. Mary did the will of God thus she is "the mother" of the Christian faith Jesus was speaking about. I am certain you have never uttered these words in complete and total submission to God and His will yet you want to elevate your self to her level of purity? You want to make your self on the same level as John the Baptist the greatest prophet? You want to take his seat at the King's table? Her seat? Beware least you take a seat not designated for you!

I submit that those that refuse to honor their "mother in Christ" and refuse to "call Mary blessed among women" is neither a friend of the Christian faith nor a friend of Jesus Christ.

Since you demand I am not scriptural (which btw is silly since I quoted specific verses) please show me "sin" commited by Mary recorded in the bible. The protestants demand Mary is just a dead ol sinner below you. Since the bible is the "final authority" to the rebellious protest and contains all knowledge and instruction, please show me Mary's sin because if it is not in the bible, it did not happen.

Orthodoxy

 

[Orthodoxy]

oopsie

 

[Orthodoxy]

oopsie

 

[BradtheImpaler]

Secondly, if anything, the gospel accounts show Jesus treating Mary with an attitude that DOES come very close to demeaning/dishonor. He apparently considered her a NAG who "didn't have a clue".

What about the Commandment to "honor one's mother and father"? Did Jesus then break that?

It depends on your interpretation of "honor". Besides, I am not a bible inerrantist, so these type of things are not my problem.

[quote:a1b7b]Where do you see Jesus considering His mother as a "nag who didn't have a clue"? :smt102

[/quote:a1b7b]

Basically every time there is an interaction between them. At Cana, when Mary bugs Jesus that the party is run short on booze, Jesus says to her...

"Woman, what have I to do with you, my time is not yet"

ouch - a bit of a stinging reply don't you think? Notice also that Jesus never calls her "mother" but always "woman" throughout the gospels, as if he is deliberately trying to distance himself from her.

In Mark.3:32-35, Matt.12:46-50, and Luke.8:19-21, we have the same account of Jesus "dissing" his mother when Mary (the "nag") tries to interupt his teaching to a crowd. When told his mother and brothers are outside wanting to see him, he responds...

"WHO IS MY MOTHER, and who are my brothers?...whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and MOTHER"

Well, that sort of shoots down any idea of Mary occupying the most prominent spot in heaven (outside of the Holy Trinity) doesn't it? In fact, it's a "slap in the face" for Mary if anything.

But here's the "coupe de grace"...Luke.11:27-28 -

As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out - "Blessed is the woman who gave you birth and nursed you"

(Notice, this woman is saying what the Catholics/Orthodox are saying concerning Mary, but how does Jesus respond?)

"Blessed RATHER are those who hear the word of God and obey it"

Not only does he negate any praise towards his mother, but he actually implies that Mary may NOT have been "hearing the word of God and obeying it".

Impossible? Am I taking something out of context? Just try and read these passages aside from your catholic indoctrination about Mary, if possible, and see what you get.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

First of all, your opponents here are not dishonoring or abusing Mary. They simply refuse to elevate her to the ridiculously unscriptural level that you do.

Secondly, if anything, the gospel accounts show Jesus treating Mary with an attitude that DOES come very close to demeaning/dishonor. He apparently considered her a NAG who "didn't have a clue".

You are attributing an affective state to Jesus based upon your culturally and historically influenced reading of a translation. There is no objective evidence to support your statement- only conjecture.

Charles Templeton took this same approach when postulating a 'rift' between Jesus and Mary. This is a common mistake made by those who are not trained to think critically, but in Templeton's case it was simple chicanery.

A man who, in his hour of agony, takes pains (no pun intended) to see to the well-being of his mother is, in any culture, a good son.

Contrary to your assurances, there is a great deal of dishonor of Mary going on here, even as many of these venerate Paul beyond his station, as if he was the only Apostle. I just wonder how much the fact that Mary was a woman sticks in the craw of those who object her veneration?

Just wonderin'

 

[BradtheImpaler]

It would appear that your version of Jesus Broken the 5th commandment. This is merely one reason why your version of Jesus is a fraud, a fake, a misrepresentation. Your version of jesus is a sinner and cannot save anyone, certainly not me. Protestant whiners calling Mary a "nag", what an absolute joke. You are a "christian"? Why should I believe in your version of Jesus over that which has always been understood by the age old Church?

Your reply betrays your mindset - why should you believe in my version of Jesus rather than your church's? Why must you have someone else tell you what you should believe? Can't you think for yourself? Or would that be a sin? All your posts amount to the same thing - your premise that the teaching of your church on all things must be true because it's the true church. This is definately a cultic mindset, because there is no reasoning with you apart from this premise. If your church doesn't have the stranglehold on the truth you think it does, how will you ever find out?

Tell me who is Jesus Christ's mother in this verse:

Luke 1:38, And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word.

Is this not Mary submitting to the Will of God and doing it? Yes. Mary did the will of God thus she is "the mother" of the Christian faith Jesus was speaking about

I am not claiming she wasn't following the will of God at that point. But the adult Jesus' attitude towards his mother in the gospels, is anything but "warm and fuzzy". If you would read the passges I cited without bias or preconception, you would see that Jesus consistently went out of his way to suggest she was not due any more acclaim than anyone else just because she was his biological mother.

I am certain you have never uttered these words in complete and total submission to God

Well, you are certain of a lot of things you really couldn't be certain of, aren't you?

and His will yet you want to elevate your self to her level of purity? You want to make your self on the same level as John the Baptist the greatest prophet? You want to take his seat at the King's table? Her seat? Beware least you take a seat not designated for you!

Now you're foaming at the mouth already. What has this to do with me? Where am I comparing myself with anybody? That was quick. At least you realize you have no scriptural or rational argument so open up the "ad hom" powderkeg?

I submit that those that refuse to honor their "mother in Christ" and refuse to "call Mary blessed among women" is neither a friend of the Christian faith nor a friend of Jesus Christ

Who cares what you "submit"? Maybe someday you will realize that everyone else doesn't share the same premise as you - that you're always right because of the Church you belong to? When you and your church mates start doing "greater things than Jesus did" (Jn.14:12) then we'll listen.

Since you demand I am not scriptural (which btw is silly since I quoted specific verses)

Hey, I quoted specific verses too - verses which plainly illustrate that Jesus did not regard Mary as anyone special.

please show me "sin" commited by Mary recorded in the bible. The protestants demand Mary is just a dead ol sinner below you. Since the bible is the "final authority" to the rebellious protest and contains all knowledge and instruction, please show me Mary's sin because if it is not in the bible, it did not happen

Well, I seem to remember a verse about "ALL" having sinned and "fallen short of the glory of God", but here you are again taking a side road. I said that Jesus "dissed" Mary on more than one occasion. THAT is my point. He didn't elevate her as you do. Prove otherwise in the examples I provided.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

The manner in whih Jesus replied to Mary in John 2 was not rude at all, but in the time and language that Christ used, it would have been quite normal. But, since you believe 'catholic' sources to be of some suspect, how about this Protestant one:
http://www.tektonics.org/gk/jesusrudemom.html
Now, regarding the supposed 'annoyance' of Christ in the fact that Mary was asking something beyond reason:
Whether or not He was annoyed, He fulfilled her wish. This is sharp contradiction with the interaction in chapter six of John's gospel: He did not fulfill the wish of those seeking a sign from Him. Clearly, He was annoyed at the people demanding a sign. Mary was not asking a sign- she was simply asking for Jesus to help with a problem at the wedding- and, in type and shadow, He provided the wine (His blood).

Regards
James

 

[BradtheImpaler]

You are attributing an affective state to Jesus based upon your culturally and historically influenced reading of a translation. There is no objective evidence to support your statement- only conjecture

Yes, of course, James, and if Jesus didn't slight Mary in the examples given, then I guess we can't be sure of how to interpret anything in the bible?

Charles Templeton took this same approach when postulating a 'rift' between Jesus and Mary. This is a common mistake made by those who are not trained to think critically, but in Templeton's case it was simple chicanery.

A man who, in his hour of agony, takes pains (no pun intended) to see to the well-being of his mother is, in any culture, a good son

Who said Jesus wasn't a good son? Who said he didn't care about his mother? He didn't regard her as anyone nearly as special as the later evolving Catholic/Orthodox would warrant. THAT'S the point. Not only that, but she was clearly a source of irritation to him, in the examples given, and he clearly did not regard her, or her position in regards to him, as superior or in any way different than anyone else's.

Contrary to your assurances, there is a great deal of dishonor of Mary going on here, even as many of these venerate Paul beyond his station, as if he was the only Apostle. I just wonder how much the fact that Mary was a woman sticks in the craw of those who object her veneration?

Just wonderin'

Nope. I would object, on biblical grounds, to Paul or any other apostle or prophet being exalted to the position that Mary occupies in the minds of the Catholic/Orthodox.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Nope. I would object, on biblical grounds, to Paul or any other apostle or prophet being exalted to the position that Mary occupies in the minds of the Catholic/Orthodox.

And what position is that, Brad? The one that you object to, that is.

I have a parallel question:
As a person who is not a biblical inerrantist, how do you then object to issues on a "biblical" basis? In other words, do you object based upon the fact that something doesn't agree with a part of the bible you actually believe to be genuine? And how do you determine what is genuine, and given the fact that you are discerning between genuine and less than reliable based upon your own criterion, shall we then have any confidence in your results (predicated as they are on liberties you have taken).

If I knew someone was using a measure that they were not confident in, yet were making arguments from the results obtained using said instrument, I'd be inclined to, well, chuckle.

Just curious
James