Why wasn't Jesus eternally tormented?

[jasoncran]

then you have a problem. moses and Elijah what were they during the transfiguration? were they bodiless?
paul also says for to be absent in body is to be present with the lord.

 

[Guest]

Well, I believe all these things. I just don't think that if my body were suddenly reduced to dust in a nuclear blast, that these characteristics will continue to exist. I believe they will reappear when I am, God willing, resurrected in future. But I do not believe they will exist in the interim.

Interim, as in waiting for judgement in your grave? I can agree with that, when you're dead, your dead. You will have to wait until Judgement Day when you are resurrected, so for soul and spirit to reappear. Yes.

 

[Drew]

then you have a problem. moses and Elijah what were they during the transfiguration? were they bodiless?

I suggest that this was a "vision". I have no proof for this, but I do not see how this possibility can be dismissed.

paul also says for to be absent in body is to be present with the lord.

I have given an answer to this in post 219.

 

[Drew]

Interim, as in waiting for judgement in your grave? I can agree with that, when you're dead, your dead. You will have to wait until Judgement Day when you are resurrected, so for soul and spirit to reappear. Yes.

Yes! It appears that we may, after this long and tortuous discussion, generally have the same view on this. What fun is that?

 

[jasoncran]

a vision? a vision? so when the book of matthew describes the graves opening up what was that?

 

[Guest]

Yes! It appears that we may, after this long and tortuous discussion, generally have the same view on this. What fun is that?

Why do you not like the word soul, yeah sorry about yesterday. soul, it's just a four letter word. it doesn't have vampire fangs or anything. haha. ;)

 

[jasoncran]

Well, the issue I have with this is in regards to believers Paul says that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. What do you make of the few texts that have a similar message?

Sorry about the fonts - never could figure that stuff out....

Paul's statement that he would rather be "absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord" works perfectly with the position that the redeemed sleep until the future resurrection. From Paul's perspective as a subject of experience, he will indeed experience an instant transition from the body to the Lord's presence, even if he factually rests in the grave for several thousand years. I see no reason to discount this "phenomenological"reading.

sorry that is what is called soul sleep. that kinda isn't accepted in most churches. only annihalaitonist accept that. ie the Jehovah's witness accept that.

http://www.bibleriches.org/2002/apol/soulsleep.html

 

[Drew]

a vision? a vision? so when the book of matthew describes the graves opening up what was that?

I do not believe that was a vision, I believe it was a real event. You are implying, I think, that its somehow inconsistent for me to believe the transfiguration was a vision. If you are making such an implication, can you defend it?

 

[Guest]

Ok, now what?

Well, maybe we are in violent agreement and we will have to think of something else to fight about .

Our spirit is also connected to our body. According to John 4:24, “God is a Spirit and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth.†Blessings.

 

[Drew]

Why do you not like the word soul, yeah sorry about yesterday. soul, it's just a four letter word. it doesn't have vampire fangs or anything. haha.

All I object to is the assertion that the Bible uses this term to refer to an aspect of the human person that can exist apart from the human body.

 

[Drew]

sorry that is what is called soul sleep. that kinda isn't accepted in most churches. only annihalaitonist accept that. ie the Jehovah's witness accept that.

Let's be clear about something. Just because the JWs might believe in soul sleep does not make the belief Biblically incorrect.

Can you make an actual case that the Bible rules out "soul sleep".

 

[Drew]

Our spirit is also connected to our body. According to John 4:24, “God is a Spirit and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth.” Blessings.

Again we agree. I believe the "spirit" is indeed "connected" to the body. I don't believe it can "float free" of the body and possess self-awareness though.

In short, I do not believe that human beings ever "float around" in any kind of disembodied state, while also being aware.

 

[Guest]

uses this term to refer to an aspect of the human person

What's the difference if the bible uses attributes or soul. Who cares. Why do you care if the word soul is used. It's just a word describing something, like attributes describes something. That's what words are for.

 

[jasoncran]

it was a real event.

And behold there appeared unto them Moses and Elias - Moses, a distinguished servant of God, by whom the law was given, and whose institutions typified the Messiah. It was particularly proper that he should appear, when his prophecies and types were about to be fulfilled, and the rites which he had instituted were about to be done away. Elias, or Elijah, a distinguished prophet, taken to heaven without seeing death. See 2 Kings 2:11. Elijah had been honored eminently by being thus translated, and still more by being made the model of the forerunner of the Messiah, Malachi 4:5; Luke 1:17; Matthew 11:14. They appeared “in glory” Luke 9:31; i. e., as they are in heaven with the glory which the redeemed have there.Talking with him - Luke Luke 9:31 informs us that they conversed about “his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.” To redeemed spirits that death was an object of intense interest. By faith in that death they had been saved; and now that the Redeemer of mankind was about to die, it is no wonder that this was the burden of his and their thoughts.
Luke adds Luke 9:32 that “Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep.” It is not improbable that this was in the night; that Jesus was engaged in prayer; and that he had permitted his weary followers to compose themselves to rest. It was after they were awaked

visions talk? remember it says they talked to jesus.

the ot saints and mary had visions of an angel. does that mean and angel wasn't real.

Had seen a vision - The word “vision” means “sight, appearance,” or “spectre,” and is commonly applied to spirits, or to beings from another world. When he came out of the temple, it is probable that they “suspected” that something of this nature had detained him there, and that, on inquiry of him, he signified by a nod that this was the case. He was unable to speak, and they had no way of “perceiving” it but by such a sign. On the word “vision,” see the notes at Isaiah 1:1.

And the people waited for Zacharias, and marvelled that he tarried so long in the temple.
22 And when he came out, he could not speak unto them: and they perceived that he had seen a vision in the temple: for he beckoned unto them, and remained speechless.

that is Zacharias.

was that vision not real to him when he spoke to Gabriel.

 

[Guest]

Our spirit is also connected to our body. According to John 4:24, “God is a Spirit and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth.†Blessings.

Again we agree. I believe the "spirit" is indeed "connected" to the body. I don't believe it can "float free" of the body and possess self-awareness though.

In short, I do not believe that human beings ever "float around" in any kind of disembodied state, while also being aware.

I agree, floating around is what our 1st grade teacher taught us and we believed it. ;)

 

[jasoncran]

sorry that is what is called soul sleep. that kinda isn't accepted in most churches. only annihalaitonist accept that. ie the Jehovah's witness accept that.

Let's be clear about something. Just because the JWs might believe in soul sleep does not make the belief Biblically incorrect.

Can you make an actual case that the Bible rules out "soul sleep".

let me ask this. what church do you go to that allows soul sleep to be taught and isn't a jw. im not saying that you are but I know of no one in any leadership that teaches soul sleep as a doctrine.the only reason I know about it because I was one.

now then what exactly is the resurrection of the unjust then if they have no need to be raised then?

that only the redeemed are raised up. in revalation it says all that are in the grave come to be judged.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

sorry that is what is called soul sleep. that kinda isn't accepted in most churches. only annihalaitonist accept that. ie the Jehovah's witness accept that.

http://www.bibleriches.org/2002/apol/soulsleep.html

Jasoncran,

You've committed some logical fallacies here..

1. You appealed to the fact that it isn't accepted in most Churches... this does not confirm or deny it's truthfulness and is an appeal to popularity... thus fallacious.
2. You sought to diminish the position of "annihilationism" by appealing to a group that believes in a form somewhat related to it.. Jehovah Witnesses, which is a Genetic fallacy. Jehovah Witnesses' believing or not believing a doctrine does not again confirm or deny a teachings truthfulness that must be shown through careful exegesis of the related Biblical texts.

Here is another point you might be ignorant of, Martin Luther.. the founder of Protestantism, who began the Reformation... Believed in Soul Sleep. Or William Tyndale who is responsible for the KJV translation. Not to mention it is held by one of the most prestigious modern Biblical scholars, N.T. Wright.

This view has been believed prior to Christianity and indeed comes from a Second Temple Judaism era understanding of life after death. It wasn't until around 300 BC that the Jews really even began to conceive of a theology of what life after death looked like, all other beliefs about it were rather vague.

I think you should be wary of a kind of theology that simply labels a doctrine and puts it in the category of "that's what cults believe."

Hope this helps,
Servant of Jesus

 

[Grappler]

that would be the jewish position but it would also include all souls in sheol.

Abraham's bosom isn't a real thought in jewish thinking. its a statement made by jesus. I have looked for it on chabad.org and barnes mentioned that it wasn't a literal place but a statement. that doesn't negate hell according to him.

Not necessarily. Sheol is a different place than where the disobedient angels of Genesis 6 were imprisoned. Yes i understand that Abraham's bosom is not an actual place...the whole story of the rich man and Lazarus is make-believe.... it is a parable.

Question: "Is Luke 16:19-31 a parable or an account of events that actually occurred?"​

Answer: Luke 16:19-31 has been the focus of much controversy. Some take the story of the rich man and Lazarus to be a true, historical account of events that actually occurred; others consider it a parable or allegory.​

Those who interpret this narrative as a true incident have several reasons for doing so. First, the story is never called a parable. Many other of Jesus' stories are designated as parables, such as the sower and the seed (Luke 8:4); the prosperous farmer (Luke 12:16); the barren fig tree (Luke 13:6); and the wedding feast (Luke 14:7). Second, the story of the rich man and Lazarus uses the actual name of a person. Such specificity would set it apart from ordinary parables, in which the characters are not named.​

Third, this particular story does not seem to fit the definition of a parable, which is a presentation of a spiritual truth using an earthly illustration. The story of the rich man and Lazarus presents spiritual truth directly, with no earthly metaphor. The setting for most of the story is the afterlife, as opposed to the parables, which unfold in earthly contexts.​

In contrast, others maintain that this story is a parable and not an actual incident that occurred. They point out that Jesus' standard practice was to use parables in His teaching. They do not consider the above arguments strong enough to warrant classifying the story as anything but a parable. Also, there are some aspects of the account that do not seem to agree with the rest of Scripture. For example, can people in hell and people in heaven see each other and speak to each other?​

The important thing is that whether the story is a true incident or a parable, the teaching behind it remains the same. Even if it is not a "real" story, it is realistic. Parable or not, Jesus plainly used this story to teach that after death the unrighteous are eternally separated from God, that they remember their rejection of the Gospel, that they are in torment, and that their condition cannot be remedied. In Luke 16:19-31, whether parable or literal account, Jesus clearly taught the existence of heaven and hell as well as the deceitfulness of riches to those who trust in material wealth.​

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/Luke-16-19-31-parable.html#ixzz2P3H8QcOV​

What is your point?

 

[Grappler]

Jesus said man was body and soul. Matthew 10:28. A brain and a heart are organs in the body...they are flesh. What is the difference between a soul and a spirit?

Grappler, that's a really good scripture. very good. The difference between a soul and a spirit is what is in bold, the functions. is your spirit worshiping false gods or the living God..

The Human Spirit

According to the revelation of the Bible and the experience of believers, the human spirit can be said to have three main functions. These three functions are conscience (Rom. 9:1; 8:16), intuition (Mark 2:8), and communion (John 4:24). The conscience is the part of the spirit which distinguishes right from wrong and is not influenced by knowledge stored in the mind; it is rather a spontaneous direct judgment. The intuition is the “knowing†part of the spirit. All true knowledge originates not in the mind, but in the spirit. The revelations of God and the movements of the Holy Spirit are known to the believer through his intuition. A believer must, therefore, take care to heed these two aspects of his spirit: the speaking of his conscience and the teaching of his intuition.

Communion is the third function of the spirit, and is related to the worship of God. The soul is not competent to worship God. According to John 4:24, “God is a Spirit and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth.â€

The Human Soul

Not only does man possess a spirit which enables him to function in the spiritual realm; he also possesses a soul which is the organ of his self-consciousness. The soul is the seat of the human personality. The ingredients which make us human beings belong to the soul. The intellect, thought, ideals, love, emotion, understanding, decision, choice, and other like qualities are all associated with the soul. The three main functions of the soul are the will (Job 7:15), the mind (Lam. 3:20, RSV), and the emotion (2 Sam. 5:8; Deut. 6:5). The will is the instrument for making decisions and choices. The second function of the soul is the mind, the instrument for thinking. It is in this part of the soul that man reasons and has knowledge (Prov. 2:10). The third function of the soul is the emotion. This is the instrument of likes and dislikes. Through the emotions we are able to express love or hatred, joyfulness, anger, sadness, or happiness. A shortage in this area will render us insensitive. By a careful study of the Bible we cannot help but be impressed that these three primary functions of the personality belong to the soul.

http://www.contendingforthefaith.org/responses/bible-answer-man/appendix/are-soul-spirit-same.html

What a bunch of useless words. So what is the difference between the mind and the conscience?? What about the difference between emotion and communion?? you gave me a bunch words that can mean so many different things. Why can't intuition and the mind be the same thing? Or the will and conscience?? Whoever wrote what you posted obviously hadn't thought this out very much...i will just stick with what Jesus said....man is body and soul....the more you start adding the more confusion grows and then you are stuck looking silly.

 

[Grappler]

then you have a problem. moses and Elijah what were they during the transfiguration? were they bodiless?
paul also says for to be absent in body is to be present with the lord.

Paul said no such thing. Stop twisting scripture it makes you look bad. Oh and the transfiguration was a vision you know like a dream....i don't know why i bother..lol