Why wasn't Jesus eternally tormented?

[Guest]

I'm a born again Christian, but thanks for asking.

 

[Guest]

Do you guys think that Jesus is alive in Heaven right now?

 

[Grappler]

You said that Jesus was going to go and prepare a place for us but you forgot to post the rest...Jesus said that he was going to prepare a place for us and then what?? He was going to come again and get us. Now Iesou why would Jesus have to come back to get us if we are already in heaven with him like you say??

That is a good question Grappler, the fact that the next verse clarifies that (sorry ripped that one out of context) this is most likely referring to the final dwelling place of the righteous.

My concern is not to be right, but to align with Scripture, therefore I wanted to present Scriptural passages that have traditionally been used to support the understanding that I currently possess, and see if there was a better understanding of these texts in your position.

However, the most compelling Scripture that I feel supports my position is Hebrews 12:22-23(NASB). Do you have an interpretation of this passage?

Thank you Grappler, look forward to your response.

Servant of Jesus

The answer to the question is rather simple. If Jesus has to return to get us so that we may be together it is common sense to conclude that we are NOT with him in Heaven.... this stuff isn't rocket science.lol It only becomes complex when people let their own personal wants and desires not to mention traditional church teachings that do not align with scripture cloud their judgment. Hebrews 12:22,23 appears to be a vision about a future event of when we are in the Kingdom of God. You are very polite...thank you Doulos.

 

[Grappler]

im going to have to ask. theres a controversy on this. I may have erred on this. I do know that the jews do accept an idea of sheol even now but. the commentantors I like say that urk's position is one of the rcc. that said whom where the saints that were raised up from the grave?

Is urk a Catholic?

I dont know. hmm barnes isn't sure if its sheol or hell, Clarke says he went to preach to those souls in prison for their faith. yet neither really holds.

I go with the school of thought that Jesus went to preach to the angels that were imprisoned in Tartarus for their horrible sins back in Genesis 6.

 

[Guest]

I'm sorry guys, i need to step back from this thread and forum for a while. I'm sorry if i upset anyone.

 

[jasoncran]

im going to have to ask. theres a controversy on this. I may have erred on this. I do know that the jews do accept an idea of sheol even now but. the commentantors I like say that urk's position is one of the rcc. that said whom where the saints that were raised up from the grave?

Is urk a Catholic?

I dont know. hmm barnes isn't sure if its sheol or hell, Clarke says he went to preach to those souls in prison for their faith. yet neither really holds.

I go with the school of thought that Jesus went to preach to the angels that were imprisoned in Tartarus for their horrible sins back in Genesis 6.

that would be the jewish position but it would also include all souls in sheol.

Abraham's bosom isn't a real thought in jewish thinking. its a statement made by jesus. I have looked for it on chabad.org and barnes mentioned that it wasn't a literal place but a statement. that doesn't negate hell according to him.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

I'm sorry guys, i need to step back from this thread and forum for a while. I'm sorry if i upset anyone.

You are forgiven brother, debates can get heated and I respect you for recognizing that. Be blessed and celebrate our Lord's death burial and resurrection this weekend, that not only brought us peace with God... but also with each other, making us all brothers in Christ.

Grace, love, and peace to your on this Good Friday,
Servant of Jesus

 

[VirginShallConceive]

I'm sorry guys, i need to step back from this thread and forum for a while. I'm sorry if i upset anyone.

No problem.

I have never been truly offended by anyone's post. It's just the internet. The fact that I respond is clear evidence that I enjoy the exchange.

 

[Grappler]

I dont know. hmm barnes isn't sure if its sheol or hell, Clarke says he went to preach to those souls in prison for their faith. yet neither really holds.

I go with the school of thought that Jesus went to preach to the angels that were imprisoned in Tartarus for their horrible sins back in Genesis 6.

that would be the jewish position but it would also include all souls in sheol.

Abraham's bosom isn't a real thought in jewish thinking. its a statement made by jesus. I have looked for it on chabad.org and barnes mentioned that it wasn't a literal place but a statement. that doesn't negate hell according to him.

Not necessarily. Sheol is a different place than where the disobedient angels of Genesis 6 were imprisoned. Yes i understand that Abraham's bosom is not an actual place...the whole story of the rich man and Lazarus is make-believe.... it is a parable.

 

[Grappler]

I'm sorry guys, i need to step back from this thread and forum for a while. I'm sorry if i upset anyone.

Peace.

 

[Grappler]

I'm sorry guys, i need to step back from this thread and forum for a while. I'm sorry if i upset anyone.

You are forgiven brother, debates can get heated and I respect you for recognizing that. Be blessed and celebrate our Lord's death burial and resurrection this weekend, that not only brought us peace with God... but also with each other, making us all brothers in Christ.

Grace, love, and peace to your on this Good Friday,
Servant of Jesus

Jesus was crucified on Wednesday. Shouldn't we be celebrating Good Wednesday and forget about Good Friday??

 

[Drew]

1. And he said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.†(Lk 23:43).

I recall reading that, due to issues of grammar in the original greek, the text could be read thus:

Truly I say to you today: you will be with me in paradise

I do not remember where I read this and whether the source seemed credible. But I trust you can see that if this "version" is indeed correct, Jesus is saying something entirely different.

I want to say something: My views on this issue are "soft" - I would not be surprised if I turned out to be mistaken on this.

 

[Drew]

Not only does man possess a spirit which enables him to function in the spiritual realm; he also possesses a soul which is the organ of his self-consciousness.

Where is the Biblical defence for this conceptualization? Remember: The author of Leviticus says, at least in reference to animals, that the soul "is in the blood"

The soul is the seat of the human personality. The ingredients which make us human beings belong to the soul. The intellect, thought, ideals, love, emotion, understanding, decision, choice, and other like qualities are all associated with the soul.

Again, where does the Bible endorse this view?

The three main functions of the soul are the will (Job 7:15),.....

Here is the text:

So that my soul chooseth strangling,
And death rather than my life.

Yes, this text is consistent with your view, but it also consistent with other views as well. If soul is another way of referring to the entire human person, the text also works.

About Lamentations 3:20 re the soul as the seat of the mind

My soul hath them still in remembrance, and is humbled in me

Again, this text works with both your view and with mine. If the term "soul" refers to the whole person, then this is simply another way of saying "I remember them..."

And its the same with the other texts.

 

[Guest]

na

Let's start over my friend. it's obvious we are not getting anywhere here. let's start afresh and try to go about this by using the words soul, spirit, brain and heart. Do you think these words are connected? If so, how? I'm just finding it somewhat difficult and perplexing that people don't understand this. I'm sorry, it's just something i have to work out with God. I'm trying to grow in patience this year. How do you explain this topic to someone without wanting to squeeze their neck and say, 'don't you see'??

Drew, when I say the human soul is part of your will, mind and emotions what is your response? making decisions, thinking, emotions that you feel inside of you. Have you ever had to make a hard decision on something? Have you ever had to think about something really hard? Thinking, just in general. Have you ever been in love with a girl or mad at your parents? These things reflect your soul.

When I say the human spirit is a part of your conscience, intuition and communion what is your response? knowing right from wrong, 'knowing' in your spirit that something is right or wrong/having intuition, worshiping God/having communion in the spirit. Do you know what right from wrong is? Have you ever felt intuition from the Holy Spirit? Have you felt like you had to worship God through the Holy Spirit. These things reflect your spirit.

My end question is does your spirit and soul line up with the spirit and soul of God? or are you worshiping false idols? Blessings.

 

[Sparkey]

The "Good Shepherd" and the "Other Sheep Pen" by Jesus Christ, the King

14 “I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. 17 The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. 18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.”

-John, chapter 10 (NIV)​

 

[Grappler]

na

Let's start over my friend. it's obvious we are not getting anywhere here. let's start afresh and try to go about this by using the words soul, spirit, brain and heart. Do you think these words are connected? If so, how? I'm just finding it somewhat difficult and perplexing that people don't understand this. I'm sorry, it's just something i have to work out with God. I'm trying to grow in patience this year. How do you explain this topic to someone without wanting to squeeze their neck and say, 'don't you see'??

Drew, when I say the human soul is part of your will, mind and emotions what is your response? making decisions, thinking, emotions that you feel inside of you. Have you ever had to make a hard decision on something? Have you ever had to think about something really hard? Thinking, just in general. Have you ever been in love with a girl or mad at your parents? These things reflect your soul.

When I say the human spirit is a part of your conscience, intuition and communion what is your response? knowing right from wrong, 'knowing' in your spirit that something is right or wrong/having intuition, worshiping God/having communion in the spirit. Do you know what right from wrong is? Have you ever felt intuition from the Holy Spirit? Have you felt like you had to worship God through the Holy Spirit. These things reflect your spirit.

My end question is does your spirit and soul line up with the spirit and soul of God? or are you worshiping false idols? Blessings.

Jesus said man was body and soul. Matthew 10:28. A brain and a heart are organs in the body...they are flesh. What is the difference between a soul and a spirit?

 

[Drew]

Let's start over my friend. it's obvious we are not getting anywhere here. let's start afresh and try to go about this by using the words soul, spirit, brain and heart. Do you think these words are connected? If so, how? I'm just finding it somewhat difficult and perplexing that people don't understand this. I'm sorry, it's just something i have to work out with God. I'm trying to grow in patience this year. How do you explain this topic to someone without wanting to squeeze their neck and say, 'don't you see'??

First, while I don't particularly enjoy being called "insane", I have been called worse and I empathize with your frustration: you believe something is obvious, and, therefore, you are surprised when someone else - in this case me - does not share your view.

I think, though, you are "stuck" on something: you appear to be unable to consider the possibility that while words like "soul" and "spirit" have taken on a certain meaning in the western culture in which you live, these terms may have meant something entirely different to Jews living in Palestine thousands of years ago.

Do you see what I am saying?

 

[Drew]

Drew, when I say the human soul is part of your will, mind and emotions what is your response? making decisions, thinking, emotions that you feel inside of you. Have you ever had to make a hard decision on something? Have you ever had to think about something really hard? Thinking, just in general. Have you ever been in love with a girl or mad at your parents? These things reflect your soul.

I hope you are not under the impression that I do not believe in notions like "will", "mind" and "emotion". I certainly do not deny these things and probably ascribe the same meaning to such terms as you do.

But, and I believe this the heart of our disagreement, I simply do not believe the people who wrote the Bible used the term "soul" to refer to these things.

Instead, as I have asserted repeatedly, I believe they generally used the word "soul" to refer to the human being in general, and in a certain descriptive way. We even do this sometimes in our culture! For example, people will use expressions like "There were 100 souls on board the plane that crashed"

When people say this, they are using the term "soul" to refer to the whole person - clearly it was not only the "wills, emotions, and minds" that were on that plane!

I hope you are beginning to see where we disagree. It is not about whether we have emotions, minds, and wills.

Its whether the people who wrote the Bible - who inhabited an entirely different culture than we do - used the term "soul" to refer to those things.

I think we are also going to need to talk about- the deep influence that Greek ideas have had on we westerners. A Greek might agree with you about a "soul" is. But I suggest a Hebrew living in Palestine > 2000 years ago would not.

More later......

 

[P31Woman]

Most Christians in the world today affirm the Penal Substitutionary Atonement position that Jesus took our punishment standing in our place at the Cross suffering the wrath of God so that we might be forgiven.

However, if the punishment for sin is eternal torment in the lake of fire... why wasn't Jesus tormented in hell for eternity? Wouldn't we say that Jesus only overcame an aspect of our punishment.. when in fact those were punished suffered a totally different punishment than the one Jesus endured.

You are trying to compare "The One and Only Perfect Spotless Holy" sacrifice with a sacrifice whose best works smells like filthy rags, is hated by God and is completely depraved.

Isaiah 64:6


Psalm 5:5, "The boastful shall not stand before Thine eyes; Thou dost hate all who do iniquity,"
Psalm 11:5, "The Lord tests the righteous and the wicked, and the one who loves violence His soul hates."

Lev. 20:23, "Moreover, you shall not follow the customs of the nation which I shall drive out before you, for they did all these things, and therefore I have abhorred them."

Prov. 6:16-19, "There are six things which the Lord hates, yes, seven which are an abomination to Him: 17 Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, 18 A heart that devises wicked plans, feet that run rapidly to evil, 19 A false witness who utters lies, and one who spreads strife among brothers."

Hosea 9:15, "All their evil is at Gilgal; indeed, I came to hate them there! Because of the wickedness of their deeds I will drive them out of My house! I will love them no more; All their princes are rebels."

How am I doing that exactly? My contention is simply that if Jesus is to be our substitute in undergoing the punishment of God. Why would he then receive an all-together different punishment then sinners will one day receive.

I'm not trying to elevate the sins of man, and bring down the worth of the Cross. Just asking a relevant question to the issue.

John MacArthur founder of Masters College on Penal Substitution:

"Christ died in our place and in our stead and He received the very same out pouring of divine wrath in all its fury that we deserved for our sin. It was a punishment so severe that a mortal could spend all eternity in the torments of hell, and still he would not have begun to exhaust the divine wrath that was heaped on Christ at the cross. This was the true measure of Christ’ssufferings on the cross. The physical pains of crucifixion – dreadful as they were – were nothing compared to the wrath of the Father against Him."



Romans 3:26-25
24 They are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Him as a propitiation through faith in His blood, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His restraint God passed over the sins previously committed

Hebrews 2:17

17 Therefore, He had to be like His brothers in every way, so that He could become a merciful and faithful highpriest in service to God, to make propitiation for the sins ofthe people


1 John 2:2
2 He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not only for ours, but also for those of the whole world.

1 John 4:10
10 Love consists in this: not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

All scripture Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)


"Propitiation means the turning away of wrath by an offering. In relation to soteriology, propitiation means placating or satisfying the wrath of God by the atoning sacrifice of Christ." C.C. Ryrie

 

[Guest]

Its whether the people who wrote the Bible - who inhabited an entirely different culture than we do - used the term "soul" to refer to those things.

But the people who wrote the bible were indwelled with the Holy Spirit. What is the Holy Spirit, where did it come from? You're still looking at the bible from a worldly perspective, culture..instead of an eternal perspective, Jesus.