Why wasn't Jesus eternally tormented?

[Guest]

I agree with the article said, "Parable or not, Jesus plainly used this story to teach that after death the unrighteous are eternally separated from God, that they remember their rejection of the Gospel, that they are in torment, and that their condition cannot be remedied."

19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’â€

I believe Jesus

Jesus is speaking prophecy here. Notice it talks about what happens 'after they die'. He's also using names and places. Very good P31, good choice of scripture. You cannot serve two masters. Luke 16:13

 

[Grappler]

I agree with the article said, "Parable or not, Jesus plainly used this story to teach that after death the unrighteous are eternally separated from God, that they remember their rejection of the Gospel, that they are in torment, and that their condition cannot be remedied."

19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

I believe Jesus

Jesus is speaking prophecy here. Notice it talks about what happens 'after they die'. He's also using names and places. Very good P31, good choice of scripture. You cannot serve two masters. Luke 16:13

Prophecy??lol So let me get this straight...you actually believe that the righteous dead actually went and "hung out" in Abraham's bosom?? Must be an awful big bosom. And what was it called before Abraham got there? So the righteous dead and unrighteous dead can have a conversation in Hell??? So the rich man could take a minute from his screaming to have a conversation with Abraham?? Please....Oh since he is using names and places then it must be an actual event?? Is Star Wars an actual event? they used names and places there as well. It is a parable...an fictional story that conveys a spiritual truth...you have missed the whole point and in your fear of eternal torment you have made this simple parable some kind of explaination of the afterlife inwhich it was never intended to be. I am not trying to take away your freedom to believe that this is an actual event...if you want to believe that then by all means do so..i am just trying to show you a more rational way to view this story.

 

[Guest]

Prophecy??lol So let me get this straight...you actually believe that the righteous dead actually went and "hung out" in Abraham's bosom?? Must be an awful big bosom. And what was it called before Abraham got there? So the righteous dead and unrighteous dead can have a conversation in Hell??? So the rich man could take a minute from his screaming to have a conversation with Abraham?? Please....Oh since he is using names and places then it must be an actual event?? Is Star Wars an actual event? they used names and places there as well. It is a parable...an fictional story that conveys a spiritual truth...you have missed the whole point and in your fear of eternal torment you have made this simple parable some kind of explaination of the afterlife inwhich it was never intended to be. I am not trying to take away your freedom to believe that this is an actual event...if you want to believe that then by all means do so..i am just trying to show you a more rational way to view this story.

No, i believed you have missed the whole point. Do you know what a prophecy is, what is your belief in who Jesus Christ is?

 

[Grappler]

Prophecy??lol So let me get this straight...you actually believe that the righteous dead actually went and "hung out" in Abraham's bosom?? Must be an awful big bosom. And what was it called before Abraham got there? So the righteous dead and unrighteous dead can have a conversation in Hell??? So the rich man could take a minute from his screaming to have a conversation with Abraham?? Please....Oh since he is using names and places then it must be an actual event?? Is Star Wars an actual event? they used names and places there as well. It is a parable...an fictional story that conveys a spiritual truth...you have missed the whole point and in your fear of eternal torment you have made this simple parable some kind of explaination of the afterlife inwhich it was never intended to be. I am not trying to take away your freedom to believe that this is an actual event...if you want to believe that then by all means do so..i am just trying to show you a more rational way to view this story.

No, i believed you have missed the whole point. Do you know what a prophecy is, what is your belief in who Jesus Christ is?

Hey...urk...dude if you want to believe that this parable is a prophecy of an actual event or whatever please go ahead.lol I suppose this will be another one of those subjects we will just have to agree to disagree on...hows that?

 

[Guest]

Hey...urk...dude if you want to believe that this parable is a prophecy of an actual event or whatever please go ahead.lol I suppose this will be another one of those subjects we will just have to agree to disagree on...hows that?

Hey dude, no problem. maybe your idea of who Jesus is, is different?

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Prophecy??lol So let me get this straight...you actually believe that the righteous dead actually went and "hung out" in Abraham's bosom?? Must be an awful big bosom. And what was it called before Abraham got there? So the righteous dead and unrighteous dead can have a conversation in Hell??? So the rich man could take a minute from his screaming to have a conversation with Abraham?? Please....Oh since he is using names and places then it must be an actual event?? Is Star Wars an actual event? they used names and places there as well. It is a parable...an fictional story that conveys a spiritual truth...you have missed the whole point and in your fear of eternal torment you have made this simple parable some kind of explaination of the afterlife inwhich it was never intended to be. I am not trying to take away your freedom to believe that this is an actual event...if you want to believe that then by all means do so..i am just trying to show you a more rational way to view this story.

No, i believed you have missed the whole point. Do you know what a prophecy is, what is your belief in who Jesus Christ is?

Hi urk, I am a bit confused.. on what basis do you believe this passage is a prophecy of a future event.

1. None of the passages around it are prophetic, rather they are parables.
2. He does not specify it is a prophecy.
3. It is not like any other prophecy found in the Bible.
4. I have heard of no scholarly support for such a position in studying the passage myself.

I look forward to your response.

Servant of Jesus

 

[gr8grace]

Prophecy??lol So let me get this straight...you actually believe that the righteous dead actually went and "hung out" in Abraham's bosom?? Must be an awful big bosom. And what was it called before Abraham got there? So the righteous dead and unrighteous dead can have a conversation in Hell??? So the rich man could take a minute from his screaming to have a conversation with Abraham?? Please....Oh since he is using names and places then it must be an actual event?? Is Star Wars an actual event? they used names and places there as well. It is a parable...an fictional story that conveys a spiritual truth...you have missed the whole point and in your fear of eternal torment you have made this simple parable some kind of explaination of the afterlife inwhich it was never intended to be. I am not trying to take away your freedom to believe that this is an actual event...if you want to believe that then by all means do so..i am just trying to show you a more rational way to view this story.

No, i believed you have missed the whole point. Do you know what a prophecy is, what is your belief in who Jesus Christ is?

Hi Urk,

I found this very interesting. Look at the similarities between Luke 16:19-21 and Acts 3:1-2

 

[Guest]

Why is everyone questioning prophecies of Jesus. What's the definition of a prophecy, this is Jesus we are talking about. gr8grace, what are you saying with Acts?

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Why is everyone questioning prophecies of Jesus. What's the definition of a prophecy, this is Jesus we are talking about. gr8grace, what are you saying with Acts?

We're questioning no prophecies of Jesus. What is in question here is if the passage is indeed a prophecy, there is no need to call into question our trust in Jesus.

What proof do you have that the passage is a prophecy, what leads you to that conclusion?

 

[P31Woman]

I believe this is a prophecy as in divine utterance/revelation from Jesus.

 

[Guest]

Why is everyone questioning prophecies of Jesus. What's the definition of a prophecy, this is Jesus we are talking about. gr8grace, what are you saying with Acts?

We're questioning no prophecies of Jesus. What is in question here is if the passage is indeed a prophecy, there is no need to call into question our trust in Jesus.

What proof do you have that the passage is a prophecy, what leads you to that conclusion?

Yes Jesus tells stories which are parables, characters might be fiction yes but places?? no. It clearly says they both died. Saying Luke 16 is fiction is saying where the begger and the rich man went after they died is fiction. That's simply not true. Rather when Jesus spoke, his wisdom is beyond ours. Jesus predicted the future on many occassions. Hades is in the future after judgement day. Holy Spirit, come help us discern. Blessings.

 

[gr8grace]

Why is everyone questioning prophecies of Jesus. What's the definition of a prophecy, this is Jesus we are talking about. gr8grace, what are you saying with Acts?

I do not believe that Luke 16:19-30 is a parable.

And Acts 3 we have a lame man, laid by the Gate of the temple,scribes and pharisees(purple and fine linen), the Lame man begging for alms from them, We see a Lame man redeemed, but we do not see the rich man or scribes and pharisees redeemed.

Could the Lame man be Lazarus? In Acts 3?

Could the rich man be a Scribe or a Pharisee? In Acts 3?

Could the "gate" be the temple gate? In Acts 3?

19"Now there was a rich man(Scribe or Pharisee? In Acts 3?), and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day. 20"And a poor man named Lazarus(the Lame beggar? in Acts 3?) was laid at his gate(temple gate? In Acts 3?), covered with sores, 21 and longing (Asking for Alms? In Acts 3?)to be fed with the [crumbs] which were falling from the rich man's table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores.

Is Acts 3 the Literal account of Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16:19-31?

 

[Guest]

Parables can be fiction in characters, but places? hmm.. their also real as in Jesus speaks to our HEARTS, in regards we cannot serve two masters in Luke 16. God vs. Money. Parables can also be prophecies, predicting the future. Hades is a real place. These are just my thoughts.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Parables can be fiction in characters, but places? hmm.. their also real as in Jesus speaks to our HEARTS, in regards we cannot serve two masters in Luke 16. God vs. Money. Parables can also be prophecies, predicting the future. Hades is a real place. These are just my thoughts.

Tell me a little more about Hades, where did this word come from? And how is it used in the Bible, I think you are greatly misunderstanding what it entails.

 

[Guest]

Parables can be fiction in characters, but places? hmm.. their also real as in Jesus speaks to our HEARTS, in regards we cannot serve two masters in Luke 16. God vs. Money. Parables can also be prophecies, predicting the future. Hades is a real place. These are just my thoughts.

Tell me a little more about Hades, where did this word come from? And how is it used in the Bible, I think you are greatly misunderstanding what it entails.

Well, let's go deeper into what scripture is saying. Luke 16:19-31 - KJV version uses the word hell, but that's beside the point. Whether we use Hades or hell doesn't really matter because torment exists in this place, and this place will take place in the future after judgement day. Luke 16:24 is stating that he is dehydrated in this flame, he is begging for water. For example, have you ever been so thirsty that you yearn for water? Well imagine never drinking water again, it's painful to your soul!!!

God is the river of life and Hades is separation from God. Revelation 22:1 says And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. Praise God, Amen! Have Mercy on Us Lord! Wow!!

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Why is everyone questioning prophecies of Jesus. What's the definition of a prophecy, this is Jesus we are talking about. gr8grace, what are you saying with Acts?

I do not believe that Luke 16:19-30 is a parable.

And Acts 3 we have a lame man, laid by the Gate of the temple,scribes and pharisees(purple and fine linen), the Lame man begging for alms from them, We see a Lame man redeemed, but we do not see the rich man or scribes and pharisees redeemed.

Could the Lame man be Lazarus? In Acts 3?

Could the rich man be a Scribe or a Pharisee? In Acts 3?

Could the "gate" be the temple gate? In Acts 3?

19"Now there was a rich man(Scribe or Pharisee? In Acts 3?), and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day. 20"And a poor man named Lazarus(the Lame beggar? in Acts 3?) was laid at his gate(temple gate? In Acts 3?), covered with sores, 21 and longing (Asking for Alms? In Acts 3?)to be fed with the [crumbs] which were falling from the rich man's table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores.

Is Acts 3 the Literal account of Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16:19-31?

The poor man in Acts 3 the poor man is healed.. he doesn't die aside from a poor man being by a gate there is no connection. Not to mention the fact that there is no Rich man mentioned in Acts 3.

Luke 16 is given in the context of several parables.. see Luke 15-16, these are given in the presence of the disciples and the Pharisees. This story is indeed a parable representing the rejection of the unbelieving Jews and the inclusion of the Gentiles.

1. Lazarus was outside the gate.. a picture of the separation for the Gentiles from the Covenant promises.. the commonwealth of Israel.
2. Lazarus longed to be fed from the crumbs that fell from the rich man's table... an allusion to what the Gentile woman said in Matthew 15:27.. "even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from the masters table..
3. Lazarus was numbered among the dogs, who came and licked his sores, a common reference to Gentiles.
4. Lazarus comes from the name Eliezer which may perhaps be a reference to Abraham's former heir to the inheritance (Genesis 15:2) he was a non-Jew (obviously) from Damascus.
5. It is Lazarus who is brought to be with Abraham, and now the NT teaches us that is those of the faith of Abraham who are the children of Abraham rather than those through physical descent.
6. The Rich man is a Jew.. this is demonstrated by a few things.
a. He was dressed in purple and fine linen denoting a status of royalty, this is an allusion to Exodus 19:6, that Israel is a Royal Priesthood.
b. He was inside the gate, he was no stranger to blessing and comfort, the gate may be in reference to the temple gates.
c. Called Abraham "Father Abraham"
d. A chasm separated them, I believe represents the present hardness and blindness that has befallen unbelieving Israel.. see Romans 11
e. Has 5 brothers.. Judah had 5 full blooded brothers.
f. Was told that his brothers have Moses and the Prophets, only the Jews had Moses and the prophets.
7. Was told that they wouldn't believe even if SOMEONE WERE TO RISE FROM THE DEAD, if they would not hear the prophets. Because they rejected the testimony of God through the OT Scriptures they would not accept Jesus and thus have a veil over their eyes so that they are prevented when reading the Law to come to the Messiah Jesus.

I could go more in depth, but these are just some basic observations that support my thesis and makes it a coherent passage as it would be a unique portrayal of the after-life against contradictory accounts.

 

[Guest]

Why is everyone questioning prophecies of Jesus. What's the definition of a prophecy, this is Jesus we are talking about. gr8grace, what are you saying with Acts?

I do not believe that Luke 16:19-30 is a parable.

And Acts 3 we have a lame man, laid by the Gate of the temple,scribes and pharisees(purple and fine linen), the Lame man begging for alms from them, We see a Lame man redeemed, but we do not see the rich man or scribes and pharisees redeemed.

Could the Lame man be Lazarus? In Acts 3?

Could the rich man be a Scribe or a Pharisee? In Acts 3?

Could the "gate" be the temple gate? In Acts 3?

19"Now there was a rich man(Scribe or Pharisee? In Acts 3?), and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day. 20"And a poor man named Lazarus(the Lame beggar? in Acts 3?) was laid at his gate(temple gate? In Acts 3?), covered with sores, 21 and longing (Asking for Alms? In Acts 3?)to be fed with the [crumbs] which were falling from the rich man's table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores.

Is Acts 3 the Literal account of Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16:19-31?

The poor man in Acts 3 the poor man is healed.. he doesn't die aside from a poor man being by a gate there is no connection. Not to mention the fact that there is no Rich man mentioned in Acts 3.

Luke 16 is given in the context of several parables.. see Luke 15-16, these are given in the presence of the disciples and the Pharisees. This story is indeed a parable representing the rejection of the unbelieving Jews and the inclusion of the Gentiles.

1. Lazarus was outside the gate.. a picture of the separation for the Gentiles from the Covenant promises.. the commonwealth of Israel.
2. Lazarus longed to be fed from the crumbs that fell from the rich man's table... an allusion to what the Gentile woman said in Matthew 15:27.. "even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from the masters table..
3. Lazarus was numbered among the dogs, who came and licked his sores, a common reference to Gentiles.
4. Lazarus comes from the name Eliezer which may perhaps be a reference to Abraham's former heir to the inheritance (Genesis 15:2) he was a non-Jew (obviously) from Damascus.
5. It is Lazarus who is brought to be with Abraham, and now the NT teaches us that is those of the faith of Abraham who are the children of Abraham rather than those through physical descent.
6. The Rich man is a Jew.. this is demonstrated by a few things.
a. He was dressed in purple and fine linen denoting a status of royalty, this is an allusion to Exodus 19:6, that Israel is a Royal Priesthood.
b. He was inside the gate, he was no stranger to blessing and comfort, the gate may be in reference to the temple gates.
c. Called Abraham "Father Abraham"
d. A chasm separated them, I believe represents the present hardness and blindness that has befallen unbelieving Israel.. see Romans 11
e. Has 5 brothers.. Judah had 5 full blooded brothers.
f. Was told that his brothers have Moses and the Prophets, only the Jews had Moses and the prophets.
7. Was told that they wouldn't believe even if SOMEONE WERE TO RISE FROM THE DEAD, if they would not hear the prophets. Because they rejected the testimony of God through the OT Scriptures they would not accept Jesus and thus have a veil over their eyes so that they are prevented when reading the Law to come to the Messiah Jesus.

I could go more in depth, but these are just some basic observations that support my thesis and makes it a coherent passage as it would be a unique portrayal of the after-life against contradictory accounts.

Why does there have to be a connection? Is Luke and Acts using two different stories? The argument here is Hades, is the word Hades used in Acts? Why are you bringing up Acts? Why does Luke 16 state what's happening after they died? Luke 16:22 also says the rich man was buried! Buried as in dead! That's why I think Jesus was speaking prophecy. Hades is a place that will exist after judgement day. Where do you think unbelievers go after judgement day? I'm not that caught up in Acts Chapter, so you would have to update me.

 

[VirginShallConceive]

I do not believe that Luke 16:19-30 is a parable.

I've never heard of that view before. And, I saw 2 or 3 or so posters mention that it is a prophecy, so I had to think about it.

Luke 16:19-30 starts, "There was a certain rich man . . .", which is past tense.

There is a huge chunk of the Book of Revelation that speaks in the past tense, but only because it is describing what the author "saw".

If you add the observation that Luke 16:19-30 is told in the past tense, along with the 4 numbered arguments that Doulos Iesou laid out, I conclude that it is a parable.

 

[Guest]

If you add the observation that Luke 16:19-30 is told in the past tense, along with the 4 numbered arguments that Doulos Iesou laid out, I conclude that it is a parable.

Do you think it's a parable that predicts the future after judgement day?

 

[Grappler]

Hey...urk...dude if you want to believe that this parable is a prophecy of an actual event or whatever please go ahead.lol I suppose this will be another one of those subjects we will just have to agree to disagree on...hows that?

Hey dude, no problem. maybe your idea of who Jesus is, is different?

Maybe