Why wasn't Jesus eternally tormented?

[VirginShallConceive]

The rich man chose money and power over God, he was never saved and proved that with the beggar.

You are right about the rich man. Good point. I stand corrected.

However, I still find the story to be a parable because of reasons listed in this thread.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

To the original post...

Are you kidding? Jesus led a perfect life and paid for our sin with his blood and much suffering. He did die for our sins and the debt is paid in full. This is easy to understand and if anyone has trouble understanding it, they should go to their knees in prayer for wisdom and understanding. Eternal torment is for unrepentant sinners who have not received the gift of grace and atonement.

Are you claiming that this is some kind of "special revelation" that cannot be found in Scripture but rather has to be found through prayer?

You're right Jesus did DIE for our sins, he didn't suffer eternal torment in our place. Therefore how can we say he was a perfect substitute? Don't you see how "eternal torment" creates a disconnect in the doctrine of penal substitutionary atonement? By affirming an all together different picture of the punishment for the wicked, Jesus' death on the Cross no longer seems that applicable to the idea that you could have suffered that same punishment.. because you wouldn't have, Jesus' suffering relented when he died... yours would continue.

I am not kidding, and if you read my original post I base my argument on Scripture above reason, as I think this view is counter to the overall teaching of the Bible.

 

[P31Woman]

To the original post...

Are you kidding? Jesus led a perfect life and paid for our sin with his blood and much suffering. He did die for our sins and the debt is paid in full. This is easy to understand and if anyone has trouble understanding it, they should go to their knees in prayer for wisdom and understanding. Eternal torment is for unrepentant sinners who have not received the gift of grace and atonement.

Are you claiming that this is some kind of "special revelation" that cannot be found in Scripture but rather has to be found through prayer?

You're right Jesus did DIE for our sins, he didn't suffer eternal torment in our place. Therefore how can we say he was a perfect substitute? Don't you see how "eternal torment" creates a disconnect in the doctrine of penal substitutionary atonement? By affirming an all together different picture of the punishment for the wicked, Jesus' death on the Cross no longer seems that applicable to the idea that you could have suffered that same punishment.. because you wouldn't have, Jesus' suffering relented when he died... yours would continue.

I am not kidding, and if you read my original post I base my argument on Scripture above reason, as I think this view is counter to the overall teaching of the Bible.

I don't see why you continue to ignore the fact God the Son is a better sacrifice than you or I. He can take the full wrath of God on the cross because of WHO HE IS AND WHAT HE DID while you or I paying for our own sins would take an eternity.

I could not die for your sins because to pay for my own would take an eternity in hell.....Jesus is the perfect subsitute because He was sinless....he has no sin debt to pay.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

I don't see why you continue to ignore the fact God the Son is a better sacrifice than you or I. He can take the full wrath of God on the cross because of WHO HE IS AND WHAT HE DID while you or I paying for our own sins would take an eternity.

I could not die for your sins because to pay for my own would take an eternity in hell.....Jesus is the perfect subsitute because He was sinless....he has no sin debt to pay.

Where in the Bible does it say that those who sin are worthy of eternal torment? It says that those who sin are worthy of death.. Romans 1:32(ESV). But it doesn't support your conclusion.

All I see his philosophical reasoning on your parts, nothing built on Scripture.

 

[Sparkey]

Why wasn't Jesus eternally tormented?

Well, would you stay for one second longer than you needed to? He was given the power to leave.

14 “I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. 17 The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. 18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.”

-John, chapter 10 (NIV)​

Jesus has the authority. I can see no reason for him to have stayed. Plus you've heard that his wasn't the only resurrection, right? Not sure why this little known fact has been suppressed from Sunday School (surely there is no nefarious reason), but here's the quote:

Matthew 27:51–54
“And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his​

​

[Jesus’] resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.​

Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, ‘Truly this was the Son of God.’”

The Romans knew why Jesus wasn't eternally tormented too! "Truly this was the Son of god."

Here's what Jesus said about that, "I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.”

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Why wasn't Jesus eternally tormented?

Well, would you stay for one second longer than you needed to? He was given the power to leave.

The power to leave what? Hell? Are you under the opinion that Jesus descended into Hell ans was tormented for 3 days?

If so, I have some MAJOR problems with that idea as it is 100% verifiably wrong... but I'll give you a chance to respond with your clarification before I go down that trail.

Jesus has the authority. I can see no reason for him to have stayed. Plus you've heard that his wasn't the only resurrection, right? Not sure why this little known fact has been suppressed from Sunday School (surely there is no nefarious reason), but here's the quote:

I never went to Sunday School, so this hasn't been suppressed with me. What consequences does such an idea bare on this issue?

The Romans knew why Jesus wasn't eternally tormented too! "Truly this was the Son of god."

Here's what Jesus said about that, "I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.”

What does Jesus have the authority to lay down and take up again? Examine the context Sparrowhawke... HIS LIFE. Jesus had the authority to lay down his life for his sheep v.17 and is able to take it back up again. This is speaking about his death and resurrection.. nothing to do with descending into hell and having authority to get out..

 

[Doulos Iesou]

I could add nothing to P31 Woman & Sparrowhawkes excellent answers to the question. They get it. I get it. Pray brother.

This is reminds me of Gnosticism.. that is is some kind of special spiritual knowledge that one has to have... That it cannot be deduced from Scripture but rather has to supernaturally endowed through a prayer.

Of course you believe they get it.. and you get it. You're convinced I'm wrong, and convinced you're right. You continue to claim that I am wrong without sufficiently showing such.. just claiming I need to get down and pray to understand that Jesus paid the price for our eternal torment. My issue is that Scripture teaches no such thing..

 

[Sparkey]

Are you under the opinion that Jesus descended into Hell ans was tormented for 3 days?

Thanks for asking. My hope with this answer is that it will have saved you the effort needed for the diatribe.

Here's my answer: No. I am not under that opinion.

 

[Sparkey]

What does Jesus have the authority to lay down and take up again? Examine the context Sparrowhawke... HIS LIFE.

That is exactly what was given, the authority. He was also given a command from His Father. Don't neglect that part in your analysis.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Thanks for asking. My hope with this answer is that it will have saved you the effort needed for the diatribe.

Here's my answer: No. I am not under that opinion.

I am glad we agree on this point, this then brings up another question. What did you mean by him having the authority to leave? How does your statement then support your position that Jesus paid the price for sinners who would suffer eternally?

 

[gr8grace]

I could add nothing to P31 Woman & Sparrowhawkes excellent answers to the question. They get it. I get it. Pray brother.

This is reminds me of Gnosticism.. that is is some kind of special spiritual knowledge that one has to have... That it cannot be deduced from Scripture but rather has to supernaturally endowed through a prayer.

Of course you believe they get it.. and you get it. You're convinced I'm wrong, and convinced you're right. You continue to claim that I am wrong without sufficiently showing such.. just claiming I need to get down and pray to understand that Jesus paid the price for our eternal torment. My issue is that Scripture teaches no such thing..

Jesus said "it is finished" when he was still alive. The separation from His Father when He had the sins of the whole world placed on Him cannot be put into words and no one can understand the true pain and agony of that fact. But it propitiated the Father.

Why is the separation From God eternal for the unbeliever? Because Jesus paid the Price for Sin. No one goes to hell for their sins, Jesus paid the Price and God is propitiated toward sin. The death penalty for Sin is paid in full.

Jesus Christ is the reason Hell is eternal. Unbelievers go to hell for eternity because the penalty for unbelief in a eternal Son is Eternal separation. It is no longer about Sins and the consequences for Sins.It is now about the Son and the consequences for not accepting the Son, which is eternal for the believer and the unbeliever alike.

So the whole OP is based on a false premise. Sins have a death penalty. The Son has eternal consequences. John 16:9

Sin is finished, Christ paid the death penalty for ALL. It is eternal for both believer and unbeliever because it is about the SON not about the Sin.

And I have said earlier this kind of debate about hell diminishes the Son, Because it is a debate about sin and Hell. And it is not about Sin, it is about the SON.

Sin is FINISHED and there is no longer a debate about Sins and its death penalty. It is about the Son and the consequences for belief or unbelief, which are eternal.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

That is exactly what was given, the authority. He was also given a command from His Father. Don't neglect that part in your analysis.

What consequence does this conclusion have with the OP? How does Jesus having been given authority from the Father to die and rise again have any bearing on this issue?

 

[Sparkey]

The question presumes a possibility of "eternal torment" for Jesus and asks why not.

I've stated that Death could not hold him. He was given authority over death and even now is seated at the Right-Hand of God with the sure Promise that all enemies shall be placed under His feet. This included Death, even though He is alive. He is risen! That's the message that I affirm. God gave him a command. And what was that? He was given "torment"?? Nay, I say.

“You love righteousness, and hate wickedness: therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness above Your fellows.”
Psalm 45:7

The Holy Spirit is the anointing and the oil of gladness and we are the reward and part of the joy that was placed before Him as he suffered the cross. He knew why he laid down his life, for his sheep, as he is the good shepherd we have heard so much about. This is the message clearly seen in the 12th chapter of Hebrews

12 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us, 2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith. For the joy set before him he endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3 Consider him who endured such opposition from sinners, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.

Shall the Bridegroom not consider his joy? We have been given the benefit of having entering into a conversation held between a Father and his Son. And how did we enter? It was by the very invitation given by the Holy Spirit, who is utterly holy and completely apart from sin. That is how we may be admonished to run the race with an eye to crossing the finish line. We don't know what we shall be, but we shall be like Him.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Finally a new argument!

Jesus said "it is finished" when he was still alive.

Well, what did he mean by "it is finished?" What do you base this conclusion off of?

The separation from His Father when He had the sins of the whole world placed on Him cannot be put into words and no one can understand the true pain and agony of that fact. But it propitiated the Father.

This is strange form of propitiation. Propitiation.. the Greek word ἱλασμός is in reference to the mercy seat, where a lamb was taken up on the day of atonement and sacrificed and it's blood was then sprinkled on the mercy seat.. the top of the ark of the Covenant. The lamb was slain.. slaughtered and that was the propitiation.. there is no such thing as propitiation being in regards to the separation of something, it is about life for life. They didn't just take part of the lamb's blood, they shed it's blood killing it, for it took the whole life of the lamb.

Just the same in Jesus' case. It wasn't enough that he was "separated from the Father" and shed some of his blood.. but that he DIED for our sins, he didn't just suffer for them. It was the suffering of his death that atones for sin.

Why is the separation From God eternal for the unbeliever? Because Jesus paid the Price for Sin. No one goes to hell for their sins, Jesus paid the Price and God is propitiated toward sin. The death penalty for Sin is paid in full.

Ahh.. I am familiar with this position. That Jesus paid the price for all sins except the sin of the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.. that those who ultimately reject Jesus commit and eternal sin and thus receive an eternal punishment. (correct me if I am wrong here)

A few things are wrong with this view.

Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. John 3:18

This passages teaches that those who believe will not be condemned.. but those do not believe are condemned already? Why? Because they have not believed in Jesus. v.36 of John chapter 3 teaches that the wrath of God REMAINS on those who do not obey the Son, that the punishment is not taken away and the wrath is not absorbed, but rather remains. Those who do not believe in Jesus are condemned, not because they don't believe in Jesus, but because Jesus is the only hope for salvation from the power and punishment of sin.

"Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come." Matthew 12:32

Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is an eternal sin, because it pertains to the age to come.. "eternal" in this instance carries a qualitative meaning. Those who commit this blasphemy.. which is ascribing the work of Jesus to the ministry of Satan, will not be forgiven in this age OR THE AGE TO COME. It is unforgivable.

Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. On account of these the wrath of God is coming. Colossians 3:5-6(ESV)

Why would the wrath of God be coming on behalf of sins that Jesus paid for? It isn't coming because they rejected Jesus alone, but the result of their rejection is that their sins were not atoned for.

At the final judgement people will be judged not for what they believed, but for the deeds they did. See the great white throne judgement in Revelation 20.

Jesus Christ is the reason Hell is eternal.

So Jesus coming to earth meant... that those who sinned instead of simply dying, they will now instead be tortured forever and ever.. HECK, better he didn't come as he just made the punishment far worse! (speaking from the perspective of someone who would be punished)

Unbelievers go to hell for eternity because the penalty for unbelief in a eternal Son is Eternal separation. It is no longer about Sins and the consequences for Sins.It is now about the Son and the consequences for not accepting the Son, which is eternal for the believer and the unbeliever alike.

I simply cannot agree as that is not what Scripture consistently teaches.

Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Ephesians 5:6

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, Romans 1:18

God's wrath is coming because of their sinfulness, ungodliness, unrighteousness and the only hope from that is repenting and believing in Jesus who will cleanse US WHO CONFESS of all of our sins.

So the whole OP is based on a false premise. Sins have a death penalty. The Son has eternal consequences. John 16:9

I'm afraid you're the one who has built your argument on a false premise. The final judgement is according to the deeds they have done.

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. Revelation 20:14(NASB)

"But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." Revelation 21:8

You see it is those who commit those kinds of sins who are consigned to the final punishment, the second death. Not simply those who don't believe in Jesus. Their sins were not paid for, as they were being explicitly punished for such.

Sin is finished, Christ paid the death penalty for ALL. It is eternal for both believer and unbeliever because it is about the SON not about the Sin.

How do you deal with this passage?

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9

How can someone be cleansed of sin.. if their sins has previously been fully cleansed and dealt with?

And I have said earlier this kind of debate about hell diminishes the Son, Because it is a debate about sin and Hell. And it is not about Sin, it is about the SON.

It's not a debate about the Son, as I have demonstrated.

But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, Romans 2:5-9

You are DEMONSTRABLY wrong.

Sin is FINISHED and there is no longer a debate about Sins and its death penalty. It is about the Son and the consequences for belief or unbelief, which are eternal.

I am curious how you will respond to these things, as I have demonstrated that the final judgement is in regards to the evil done by those did not repent and believe in Jesus. As you affirmed death is the penalty for sin, not eternal torment.. I don't see how you can't agree with me now. Or you'll just outright deny or explain away clear teaching.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

The question presumes a possibility of "eternal torment" for Jesus and asks why not.

I've stated that Death could not hold him. He was given authority over death and even now is seated at the Right-Hand of God with the sure Promise that all enemies shall be placed under His feet. This included Death, even though He is alive. He is risen! That's the message that I affirm. God gave him a command. And what was that? He was given "torment"?? Nay, I say.

“You love righteousness, and hate wickedness: therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness above Your fellows.”
Psalm 45:7

The Holy Spirit is the anointing and the oil of gladness and we are the reward and part of the joy that was placed before Him as he suffered the cross. He knew why he laid down his life, for his sheep, as he is the good shepherd we have heard so much about. This is the message clearly seen in the 12th chapter of Hebrews

12 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us, 2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith. For the joy set before him he endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3 Consider him who endured such opposition from sinners, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.

Shall the Bridegroom not consider his joy? We have been given the benefit of having entering into a conversation held between a Father and his Son. And how did we enter? It was by the very invitation given by the Holy Spirit, who is utterly holy and completely apart from sin. That is how we may be admonished to run the race with an eye to crossing the finish line. We don't know what we shall be, but we shall be like Him.

I'm still confused how any of this supports the position that what Jesus did on the Cross saved us from eternal torment.

Can you state your case as simply as possible?

 

[Doulos Iesou]

that is is some kind of special spiritual knowledge that one has to have... That it cannot be deduced from Scripture but rather has to supernaturally endowed through a prayer.

Perhaps you're right. I should show why it is a good thing to go to prayer before during and after studying the scriptures for to be granted wisdom and understanding and to be able to discern the truths from the potential confusion that can result from not having a little illumination being shed upon it so that one is able to understand the message. I don't mean to come across as crass to a brother who is seeking the truth.

First look at 2 Timothy 2 :15

Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth./ (NIV)

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth./ (KJV)

Get wisdom and understanding in the Lord.

Proverbs 4:7

The beginning of wisdom is this: Get wisdom.
Though it cost all you have, get understanding./ (NIV)

Proverbs 24:3-4
Proverbs 19:2
Hosea 4:6
Ephesians 5:17

James 1:5

If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him./ (NIV)

Proverbs 24:5-6
Proverbs 3:5, 7
Proverbs 2:6, 9-11
Matthew 11:25

James 1:5-7

5 If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to you. 6 But when you ask, you must believe and not doubt, because the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. 7 That person should not expect to receive anything from the Lord./ (NIV)

1 Corinthians 2:6-16

6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 However, as it is written:

“What no eye has seen,
what no ear has heard,
and what no human mind has conceived”—
the things God has prepared for those who love him—
10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.

The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.[c] 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for,

“Who has known the mind of the Lord
so as to instruct him?”[d]
But we have the mind of Christ./ (NIV)

So you are exactly correct my brother, in saying that we can not deduce wisdom from the scriptures ourselves. That it has to be supernaturally endowed through the Holy Spirit of God. As you can see, the scriptures plainly state that we are to ask God for this, and how else? In prayer, brother. Please spend a little time reading the scriptures that I have posted and meditate on them a little to draw your own conclusion and not to simply take my word for it. It is all there in black and white.

How do you then conclude that those who have prayerfully studied have come to different ideas?

Calvinists pray for understanding the Scriptures and so do Arminians.. yet they disagree on what the Scripture teaches.

When someone comes out and says, "you simply haven't come to the spiritual understanding that can only be reached through prayer." I ask them what Bible have they been reading.

The Bible as I said earlier is not a Gnostic document that can only be understood by the Spiritually enlightened that is a misreading of 1 Corinthians 2.. as in 1 Corinthians 3, Paul opens up by saying "I couldn't address you as spiritual people, but people of the flesh, infants in Christ." Paul wanted to teach them a deeper spiritual truth, but these Christians who indeed had the Spirit.. were not ready.

We need to rightly handle the word of truth, and we must demonstrate from proper exegesis and use of hermeneutical principles why a passage means what it says, or doesn't say.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

How do you then conclude that those who have prayerfully studied have come to different ideas?

I come to that conclusion because it us what the scripture plainly says (did you even read the scriptures I posted?)

People come to different conclusions because some have the Spirit of God and some do not. I pray for wisdom and understanding more than anything, everyday. The Lord does not lie. He says ask and it shall be given, seek and you will find, knock and it shall be opened unto you. The Lord keeps his promises, he does not lie.

Are you trying to say that wisdom and understanding does not come from the Lord? That we do not need to pray?

You see this is exactly what Gnosticism teaches.. this is not Christianity.

You're saying that among true believers there should be no disagreement? That in the case with Arminians and Calvinists for example one of those groups is Christian and another is not?

Of course I read the Scriptures you posted, which don't reach the conclusion that you have arrived at as I demonstrated specifically with 1 Corinthians 2. Simply praying about a Scripture does not ensure a correct interpretation, this is not how it works. As you incorrectly interpreted a few of those texts you listed, as demonstrated in my last post.

 

[Guest]

The rich man chose money and power over God, he was never saved and proved that with the beggar.

You are right about the rich man. Good point. I stand corrected.

However, I still find the story to be a parable because of reasons listed in this thread.

No prob. Well, what does the parables of Jesus do for people, they speak to their HEARTS! Lessons learned. If Luke 16 wasn't prophecy about the afterlife, he wouldn't of mentioned Hades, torment and the condition they were in. It is a parable and a prophecy. If you don't think Jesus speaks prophecy, think again. Blessings.

 

[Sparkey]

I'm still confused how any of this supports the position that what Jesus did on the Cross saved us from eternal torment.

The confusion (I believe) may stem from the fact that we are speaking about two different things. The title of this thread refers to the subject that I am am talking about.

Hope that helps.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

I'm still confused how any of this supports the position that what Jesus did on the Cross saved us from eternal torment.

The confusion (I believe) may stem from the fact that we are speaking about two different things. The title of this thread refers to the subject that I am am talking about.

Hope that helps.

My question is in light of the teachings of penal substitutionary atonement, and arises from the idea that Jesus took our punishment on the Cross and absorbed God's wrath due towards us. However, Jesus did not suffer the same punishment that we would suffer, actually it is an all together different punishment, as he died.. and was not eternally tormented and according to some.. we will be.

How does your remarks resolve this.. I'm just having trouble seeing that.