Why wasn't Jesus eternally tormented?

[Grappler]

Why is everyone questioning prophecies of Jesus. What's the definition of a prophecy, this is Jesus we are talking about. gr8grace, what are you saying with Acts?

urk you are confused....we are not questioning prophecies of Jesus. We are questioning your judgment on what are prophecies and what are parables. Surely you know the difference between a prophecy and a parable don't you?

 

[Guest]

Hey...urk...dude if you want to believe that this parable is a prophecy of an actual event or whatever please go ahead.lol I suppose this will be another one of those subjects we will just have to agree to disagree on...hows that?

Hey dude, no problem. maybe your idea of who Jesus is, is different?

Maybe

What does Luke 16:22-23 mean to you when it says died, buried? and in hell he lift up his eyes. :o

 

[VirginShallConceive]

If you add the observation that Luke 16:19-30 is told in the past tense, along with the 4 numbered arguments that Doulos Iesou laid out, I conclude that it is a parable.

Do you think it's a parable that predicts the future after judgement day?

No.

I think of it as what I usually think of when I read a parable of Jesus. It is a story that teaches us a valuable lesson.

Period.

 

[Guest]

If you add the observation that Luke 16:19-30 is told in the past tense, along with the 4 numbered arguments that Doulos Iesou laid out, I conclude that it is a parable.

Do you think it's a parable that predicts the future after judgement day?

No.

I think of it as what I usually think of when I read a parable of Jesus. It is a story that teaches us a valuable lesson.

Period.

But what does Luke 16:22-23 mean to you when it says died, buried? and in hell he lift up his eyes. :o

 

[Grappler]

Hey...urk...dude if you want to believe that this parable is a prophecy of an actual event or whatever please go ahead.lol I suppose this will be another one of those subjects we will just have to agree to disagree on...hows that?

Hey dude, no problem. maybe your idea of who Jesus is, is different?

Maybe

What does Luke 16:22-23 mean to you when it says died, buried? and in hell he lift up his eyes. :o

i thought i told you...yeah i am pretty sure i told you....parable

 

[Guest]

Maybe

What does Luke 16:22-23 mean to you when it says died, buried? and in hell he lift up his eyes. :o

i thought i told you...yeah i am pretty sure i told you....parable

Yes but what does Luke 16:22-23 mean to you when it says died, buried? and in hell he lift up his eyes. PROPHECY!!

 

[Grappler]

Maybe

What does Luke 16:22-23 mean to you when it says died, buried? and in hell he lift up his eyes. :o

i thought i told you...yeah i am pretty sure i told you....parable

Yes but what does Luke 16:22-23 mean to you when it says died, buried? and in hell he lift up his eyes. PROPHECY!!

So if i go by your kind of logic then when i read the obituary section of the newspaper then i am reading prophecy...right? I mean the obit tells me that they died and where they are going to be buried and alot of them even say that the deceased is in heaven.

 

[Guest]

i thought i told you...yeah i am pretty sure i told you....parable

Yes but what does Luke 16:22-23 mean to you when it says died, buried? and in hell he lift up his eyes. PROPHECY!!

So if i go by your kind of logic then when i read the obituary section of the newspaper then i am reading prophecy...right? I mean the obit tells me that they died and where they are going to be buried and alot of them even say that the deceased is in heaven.

Grappler, the obituary is not prophecy. Loved ones/MAN has written that they are in heaven in the obituary to ease their minds. Only God can judge us at the judgement throne, and truly know if someone is written in the book of life. Only God is the author and judge.

 

[Grappler]

i thought i told you...yeah i am pretty sure i told you....parable

Yes but what does Luke 16:22-23 mean to you when it says died, buried? and in hell he lift up his eyes. PROPHECY!!

So if i go by your kind of logic then when i read the obituary section of the newspaper then i am reading prophecy...right? I mean the obit tells me that they died and where they are going to be buried and alot of them even say that the deceased is in heaven.

Grappler, the obituary is not prophecy. Loved ones/MAN has written that they are in heaven in the obituary to ease their minds. Only God can judge us at the judgement throne, and truly know if someone is written in the book of life. Only God is the author and judge.

Neither is the parable of the rich man and Lazarus.

 

[Guest]

So if i go by your kind of logic then when i read the obituary section of the newspaper then i am reading prophecy...right? I mean the obit tells me that they died and where they are going to be buried and alot of them even say that the deceased is in heaven.

Grappler, the obituary is not prophecy. Loved ones/MAN has written that they are in heaven in the obituary to ease their minds. Only God can judge us at the judgement throne, and truly know if someone is written in the book of life. Only God is the author and judge.

Neither is the parable of the rich man and Lazarus.

hmm, so the words died and buried don't mean anything to you, ha. we're done here. moving on..

 

[VirginShallConceive]

If you add the observation that Luke 16:19-30 is told in the past tense, along with the 4 numbered arguments that Doulos Iesou laid out, I conclude that it is a parable.

Do you think it's a parable that predicts the future after judgement day?

No.

I think of it as what I usually think of when I read a parable of Jesus. It is a story that teaches us a valuable lesson.

Period.

But what does Luke 16:22-23 mean to you when it says died, buried? and in hell he lift up his eyes. :o

The author of that particular passage is suggesting that it is routine that any child of God shall experience Hell before ascending into Heaven, which is coming from left field when compared to other biblical authors' depictions of what true believers' journeys might be.

Go figure.

 

[Guest]

The author of that particular passage is suggesting that it is routine that any child of God shall experience Hell before ascending into Heaven, which is coming from left field when compared to other biblical authors' depictions of what true believers' journeys might be.

Go figure.

The rich man chose money and power over God, he was never saved and proved that with the begger. A child of God will never experience hell, because they will be sent to eternal life after judgement day. There are two roads we take after judgement day, which one are you taking?

 

[Grappler]

So if i go by your kind of logic then when i read the obituary section of the newspaper then i am reading prophecy...right? I mean the obit tells me that they died and where they are going to be buried and alot of them even say that the deceased is in heaven.

Grappler, the obituary is not prophecy. Loved ones/MAN has written that they are in heaven in the obituary to ease their minds. Only God can judge us at the judgement throne, and truly know if someone is written in the book of life. Only God is the author and judge.

Neither is the parable of the rich man and Lazarus.

hmm, so the words died and buried don't mean anything to you, ha. we're done here. moving on..

Okay urk...glad that we can agree to disagree...have a nice evening.

 

[VirginShallConceive]

The author of that particular passage is suggesting that it is routine that any child of God shall experience Hell before ascending into Heaven, which is coming from left field when compared to other biblical authors' depictions of what true believers' journeys might be.

Go figure.

The rich man chose money and power over God, he was never saved and proved that with the begger. A child of God will never experience hell, because they will be sent to eternal life after judgement day. There are two roads we take after judgement day, which one are you taking?

I would recommend not to drastically diverge from the "point vs. point" discussion that is taking place.


Is it a parable, prophecy, or both?


I opt for parable.



Period.

 

[10s3r]

Jesus said,
Luke 16:1 ¶And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man...
I say it isn't a parable.

 

[Sparkey]

It is not important whether it is a true incident or a parable; it's the teaching behind it, true or not, that is important!

The important thing is that whether the story is a true incident or a parable, the teaching behind it remains the same. Even if it is not a "real" story, it is realistic. Parable or not, Jesus plainly used this story to teach that after death the unrighteous are eternally separated from God, that they remember their rejection of the Gospel, that they are in torment, and that their condition cannot be remedied. In Luke 16:19-31, whether parable or literal account, Jesus clearly taught the existence of heaven and hell as well as the deceitfulness of riches to those who trust in material wealth.

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/Luke-16-19-31-parable.html#ixzz2P3H8QcOV​

Moderator: This question about the nature of parables is no longer germane to the larger subject of "Why wasn't Jesus eternally tormented?" and is hereby tabled as having been "asked and answered".

The discussion does not center on "the bosom of Abraham" and if we can live there or not, nor does it center on whether Jesus was making a historical or metaphorical statement, nor is it centered on the difference between allegory and metaphor; instead it is centered on Scripture and the teaching found within the Word of Truth.

I've bumped this because it was mentioned in thread approximately 3 pages ago.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

It is not important whether it is a true incident or a parable; it's the teaching behind it, true or not, that is important!

The important thing is that whether the story is a true incident or a parable, the teaching behind it remains the same. Even if it is not a "real" story, it is realistic. Parable or not, Jesus plainly used this story to teach that after death the unrighteous are eternally separated from God, that they remember their rejection of the Gospel, that they are in torment, and that their condition cannot be remedied. In Luke 16:19-31, whether parable or literal account, Jesus clearly taught the existence of heaven and hell as well as the deceitfulness of riches to those who trust in material wealth.

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/Luke-16-19-31-parable.html#ixzz2P3H8QcOV​

Moderator: This question about the nature of parables is no longer germane to the larger subject of "Why wasn't Jesus eternally tormented?" and is hereby tabled as having been "asked and answered".

The discussion does not center on "the bosom of Abraham" and if we can live there or not, nor does it center on whether Jesus was making a historical or metaphorical statement, nor is it centered on the difference between allegory and metaphor; instead it is centered on Scripture and the teaching found within the Word of Truth.

I've bumped this because it was mentioned in thread approximately 3 pages ago.

Hi Sparrowhawke, welcome to the thread! I do however disagree with your point here. Let me demonstrate why... I believe that it is important when exegeting a text to determine the literary genre, if we understand that a text is poetry.. well then we shouldn't interpret it as a literal narrative as poetry often employs allegorical and metaphorical language.

If indeed this passage is not a parable and it is describing a real life event, there are some issues:
1. Those in heaven will witness unending, unabated torture of their loved ones. A truly frightening idea that some have taken literally and derived morally repugnant doctrine from it.
2. You have an idea of Hades as a place of punishment, which throughout the rest of Scripture it is merely the "underworld" or the "abode of the dead" where both the wicked and righteous went. It is a complete contradiction of everything revealed prior to Jesus on what Sheol.. Hades was like.
3. The rich man dies... and is buried and goes down into Hades. Lazarus dies.. and isn't buried but is carried by angels to Abraham's side. Are the righteous not buried like the dead, but are they rather carried off by angels?

Understanding whether or not this is a parable will inform what you believe Jesus meant to teach by saying these words. This must be evaluated by 1) The direct context of Luke 15-16, 2) The language employed, if this is a parable what would this story represent, 3) the consequences of a literal interpretation on other doctrine (coherency of Scripture), 4) The literary genre, 5) The audience being addressed.

 

[Sparkey]

If indeed this passage is not a parable and it is describing a real life event, there are some issues:

I would like to say that my first comment was directed at a side-track that represented a difference between opinions when I thought that the flow of this discussion may be seriously disrupted. 3 pages later it seems that my first instinct was correct.

In addition, I would to extend to you the option of making a brief statement from the "It is a parable and therefore we can not believe what is being taught" side, before I am able to agree with you. Make your single statement, if you wish, and accept my thanks for following this moderator's advice if you are unable. My only point is that the debate regarding "It is" vs. "It is not," is a form of he-said, she-said only and may not continuously be used to interrupt the flow of the discussion, especially when it is clearly seen as a teaching and doctrine of our Lord in every case. In the meantime, I will in good faith signal moderators who are better schooled in the Exegesis vs. Eisegesis discussion you bring to my attention.

Cordially,
Sparrow

 

[reba]

This posts is the OP please stay on topic

Most Christians in the world today affirm the Penal Substitutionary Atonement position that Jesus took our punishment standing in our place at the Cross suffering the wrath of God so that we might be forgiven.

However, if the punishment for sin is eternal torment in the lake of fire... why wasn't Jesus tormented in hell for eternity? Wouldn't we say that Jesus only overcame an aspect of our punishment.. when in fact those were punished suffered a totally different punishment than the one Jesus endured.

I have heard preachers attempt to elaborate on this stating it was because of the great worth of Jesus compared to the fallen sinners he was redeeming.. however there is no Scriptural support for any of these notions.

What if... we actually took passages in the Bible seriously and didn't prefer texts with metaphorical and apocalyptic contexts and really did a rethinking of what the final punishment is like?

Here are some points that I believe are completely off most Christian's radars.

1. The wages of sin is death. This is such a simple verse that so many people have memorized, yet so few people actually believe it. They rather think that the wages of sin means eternal torment in the lake of fire, or that this death is not only physical death but also "spiritual" death as in separation from God for all eternity... yet the phrase spiritual death never occurs in Scripture and is a common teaching of Gnosticism which has spiritual death rather than physical death as the ultimate punishment.

2. Jesus teaches in Matthew 10:28 that not only is the body, the physical body destroyed (ἀπόλλυμι means to be destroyed..) in hell, but also our SOUL is destroyed there. Given the context of Matthew 10:28 and Jesus is telling his disciples not to fear those who can merely KILL the body and then do nothing.. he tells them to rather fear God who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

3. The most famous verse in the Bible.. John 3:16 teaches that whoever believes shall not... PERISH, but have eternal life. This is the same Greek word found in Matthew 10:28 and is a strengthened form of ollumi and it means to destroy utterly. This is made clear in the context of life vs perishing and not fearing one how can just kill not only the body but also the soul.

4. And Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death—the lake of fire.(Re 20:14).

There are many times in which the Bible employs figurative language yet then expounds on what that means. For example, in Revelation it will use all kinds of metaphorical imagery and then will say.. the 10 horns are 10 kings.. giving somewhat of a commentary for what these images point to.

Here in Revelation 20:14 and in other places he elaborates on just what the lake of fire is.. it is the second death, which is quite interesting because it happens just after the resurrection of the wicked, who will be judged and cast in soul and body to die a second death.. as they had already died once.

Conclusion:

Jesus did die in our place and suffer our penalty as a substitute and it was to suffer the punishment promised of old.. that if we break the law of God we are deserving of death (Romans 1:32). Jesus comes and conquers death our last and greatest enemy by taking the punishment on the Cross and rising from the dead on the Third day.. for the Resurrection is our greatest hope. For immortality was not possessed before Jesus, in Jesus is eternal life.. for he IS eternal life!

but has now been disclosed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought to light life and immortality through the gospel, (2 Ti 1:10).

Did Jesus really take your punishment on the Cross? Is the Resurrection really your greatest hope? Or has our views on the punishment of God confused our soteriology so that the heart of the gospel seems quite irrelevant to the issue we think we have.

We serve a great God who is loving, gracious, righteous and JUST. He will not let the guilty go unpunished, but praise be to God who has set us free from the fear of death and has promised eternal life for all those who are in Christ.

Blessings in Christ,
Servant of Jesus

Stay on topic or start a new thread. Moderator

 

[Guest]

Did Jesus really take our punishment on the cross??? Oh my Lord in Heaven, help these people understand who you are Lord.