Will all born-again Christians make it to heaven?

[Deborah13]

@Grappler Let me correct myself. Matthew 7:7 is speaking about how a believer should pray. I may have gotten this confused with Romans 10:9. Good look on that man. ty. For so many years I thought Matthew 7:7 spoke of unbelievers, wow. But what about Romans 10:9, without the unbeliever confessing and believing there is no salvation. God the Father can draw them in, but they can also deny salvation, no?

This is the one with the Lord knocking (drawing one to Him) and waiting for a response.
Rev 3:20
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

 

[Deborah13]

"ALL that the Father has given me will come to me"?

Which scripture are you quoting, I can't find it. Thanks

John 6:37

Ok, I thought you were referring to somewhere different than the whole section of 6:35-44.

 

[John Zain]

When a person is asking, seeking and knocking they are still an unbeliever.
Scripture is simply telling you what to do in order to become a believer.

Unbelievers are @ enmity with (an enemy of) God ... they are not asking-seeking-knocking.
Believers ask-seek-knock ... trying to get their (often desperate) prayers answered!
Note: Getting desperate prayers answered is NOT a walk in the park on a sunny day.

Believers like myself have asked-seeked-knocked to be blessed with the Spirit baptism.
This has often been called "tarrying at the altar".
Although I was not desperate ... dejectedly, I said to wife, "I'll probably get it when I'm 93!"
And Jesus gave it to me about 2 years later ... in 1993.

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him.
And I will raise him up on the last day. John 6:44

This is one tough verse for me to deal with!
But, for me to continue accepting all of the many warning verses,
I will contemplate on ...

Jesus knew that some of His disciples would fall away,
because they had NOT truly been drawn by God ...
John 2:23-25, John 6:66, John 8:31-47, John 15:1-11.
Their faith was not real. Even among His chosen 12, there was that one.
I can only conclude that Jesus is talking about ONLY the elect of God,
and NOT about everyone who seems to have come to Him, i.e. the tares!

Historically, many people who have NOT been born-again have sat in church pews.
These were NOT drawn ... but somehow they arrived in those pews, and remained.
Lots of reasons for this sad situation actually.

The Lord has hidden many spiritual truths in Scripture,
which really can only be brought to the light by spiritual revelation.

 

[Guest]

So according to you God draws us in simultaneously as we are asking?? So according to you it is kind of like the old question of which came first the chicken or the egg?? Wow...what an illogical stance...and unscriptural. Let me post this again. " No one came come to the Father unless he draws him to me.....I don't see Jesus mentioning anything about "asking" at the same time that God draws us in. You asked another illogical question about an atheist. I have some news for you urk there are many many people who used to be atheist that God did indeed "draw" into his family. I love Romans 10:9 only those to whom the Father draws will confess Jesus with their mouth and believe in their heart. Unless you think that Jesus was lying. Now urk this has nothing to do with the topic of this thread....a topic that we actually agreed on i thought...maybe you should start another thread if you would like to continue this discussion.

You missed post#144, i was complimenting you for helping me.

 

[francisdesales]

I am not "blatantly denying Scriptures", I just don't agree with your INTERPRETATION of them.

Clearly, this is about whether Jesus would reject a sinner who comes to Him for forgiveness. It is not even on the topic we are speaking about - perseverance UNTIL THE END.

This expression does not refer to the doctrine of perseverance of the saints, but to the fact that Jesus will not reject or refuse any sinner who comes to him and be forgiven.

"Him who comes": Ps 102:17; Is 1:18; Is 55:7; Mt 11:28; Lk 23:42-43; 1 Tim 1:15,16; Rev 22:17
persevere until the end. What does that mean to YOU?

Your opinion....Lets try this scripture out shall we? " No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day." John 6:44 Now we see here that you or I couldn't even choose Jesus to begin with on our own much less our works having any meaning on whether we perservere or not. You really need to let go of your pride in your works and focus on what Jesus did for you and be thankful and celebrate....those who sit around worrying about losing their salvation probably don't have it to lose to begin with.

I don't know anyone "sitting around worried about losing their salvation". Dude...

Those who are in Christ crucify the desires of the flesh. I hope you are working on that and not thinking some little 15 minute emotional experience grants you eternal bliss in heaven!

I pray that God grants me the persevance to remain in Him until the end. You should, too.

Have to go, I am going to go to Mass right now and offer myself to the Father in union with Christ. With Christ, I will say "This is my body" and "This is my blood". "Take it and do what you will with it, Heavenly Father"

Regards

Actually i can see the fear of losing your salvation in your very posts....dude. Your own words betray the fact that you do fear "not making it to heaven" and i kind of feel sad for you. If you understood scripture and knew God as a loving Father then you wouldn't have those doubts.

I have already gained initial salvation. I can't lose that. But Scriptures point out people who fall away from Christ after being freed from sin.

It is eschatological judgment that I am concerned with here. For in both the OT and the NT, it is based upon good deeds done in God.

No need to feel sadness for me. Just do what Paul says, pray for me. Of course, that prayer presumes that God's work in getting me to heaven is not a certainty yet, is it...

 

[francisdesales]

Un no urk....the Holy Spirit is not given to unbelievers....it is given to believers. Do you actually believe that unbelievers have the Holy Spirit?

No, you misunderstood. When a person is asking, seeking and knocking they are still an unbeliever. Scripture is simply telling you what to do in order to become a believer. Yes, the Holy Spirit is given only to believers, but what did that person have to do to become a believer.

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. John 6:44 And once again urk you are confused and using improper biblical hermaneutics. First of all you are making the assumption that Jesus is only telling unbelievers to ask and knock and seek. Second of all you blatantly deny scripture when it plainly says that only those whom the Father draws to Jesus will be saved. I guess that hurts your ego or something because you think that you chose God but if you are a true child of God ....he chooses you. You don't believe me? Then maybe you will believe scripture...check out Ephesians chapter 1.

Why are YOU denying Scriptures???

God chose the Jews as a people. How did that fare for each and every individual Jew? How many of the original Jews made it from Egypt to the promised Land??? Paul says that this is a sign to presumptuous Christians who think it is already 'done'. (1 Cor 10:1-12)

Being predestined is about being chosen by God to receive salvation. We receive faith as a gift. But this salvation is not eschatological. Salvation is ongoing and salvation is also seen as something we have not yet received in the future. It begins as entrance into God's People. From there, one must be transformed from the old self. OT and NT, God's judgment of man is based on what we do with God's grace. Jesus tells three clear parables on this entrance into heaven in Matthew 25. The branches can be broken off. Both Paul and Jesus use the same analogy.

Persevere until the end...


Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Continue reading 1 Cor 3. Up to verse 17.

I did, I read it the first time you wrote it. But it's a continuing teaching. We can't pull it out of context.

1Co 3:17: Taken in context, this verse is continuing the same thought that was expressed in the illustration of the different building materials (1Co 3:12-15). Remember that Paul said those who were guilty of using the wrong building materials (works of the flesh - see note 3 at 1Co 3:13) would suffer loss, but they themselves would be saved (see note 6 at 1Co 3:15). Therefore, Paul was not speaking of utter destruction when he used the word "destroy."
The Greek word that was translated "destroy" here is "PHTHEIRO." It was only used in seven scriptures in the New Testament, and six of those times, it was translated "corrupt" or "corrupted" (1Co 15:33; 2Co 7:2, 11:3; Eph 4:22; Jude 10; and Re 19:2). The only two other translations are here in 1Co 3:17. This same Greek word that was translated "destroy" was also translated "defile" here.
http://www.awmi.net/bible/1co_03_17

The commentary goes on to speak of how in the OT the temple being defiled, etc.

Ok, thanks for that information.

How did God customarily deal with His People when they defiled the Temple? Were the Jews able to avoid the wrath of God just because He had elected them upon His own initiative? Was God not able to break off branches from the tree? Paul seems to believe that those who DO such things will not enter the Kingdom of heaven.

Regards

 

[Deborah13]

How did God customarily deal with His People when they defiled the Temple?

I don't really know without more study and if I read it last night I will have to refresh, I've slept between then and now.

I do know that the temple was not destroyed when it became defiled but that it was cleaned up again, sanctified, restored.
Just as I think, we as the temple are defiled when we come to the Lord, we are saved and sanctified, sin can defile the temple but not destroy? We need to confess and repent in order to be put back into service for the Lord, if we are not in relationship with Him we will not be listening for His voice and not know His will.

What do you think?

 

[Grappler]

Un no urk....the Holy Spirit is not given to unbelievers....it is given to believers. Do you actually believe that unbelievers have the Holy Spirit?

No, you misunderstood. When a person is asking, seeking and knocking they are still an unbeliever. Scripture is simply telling you what to do in order to become a believer. Yes, the Holy Spirit is given only to believers, but what did that person have to do to become a believer.

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. John 6:44 And once again urk you are confused and using improper biblical hermaneutics. First of all you are making the assumption that Jesus is only telling unbelievers to ask and knock and seek. Second of all you blatantly deny scripture when it plainly says that only those whom the Father draws to Jesus will be saved. I guess that hurts your ego or something because you think that you chose God but if you are a true child of God ....he chooses you. You don't believe me? Then maybe you will believe scripture...check out Ephesians chapter 1.

Why are YOU denying Scriptures???

God chose the Jews as a people. How did that fare for each and every individual Jew? How many of the original Jews made it from Egypt to the promised Land??? Paul says that this is a sign to presumptuous Christians who think it is already 'done'. (1 Cor 10:1-12)

Being predestined is about being chosen by God to receive salvation. We receive faith as a gift. But this salvation is not eschatological. Salvation is ongoing and salvation is also seen as something we have not yet received in the future. It begins as entrance into God's People. From there, one must be transformed from the old self. OT and NT, God's judgment of man is based on what we do with God's grace. Jesus tells three clear parables on this entrance into heaven in Matthew 25. The branches can be broken off. Both Paul and Jesus use the same analogy.

Persevere until the end...


Regards

You err. God did NOT choose the Jews as a people. Are you not aware that Jews are just one of the twelve tribes of Israel? God chose Abraham a Gentile to be set apart to become a people unto himself. He made a covenant with Abraham so that through Abraham he might bless the nations of the Earth. Now...please point out specifically where i am denying scripture.

 

[Deborah13]

Was God not able to break off branches from the tree? Paul seems to believe that those who DO such things will not enter the Kingdom of heaven.

Yes, some of the Jews were cut off from the tree because...
Romans 11 KJV
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

So what I see is that they were cut off because they did not believe, those in the OT where Elias prays for the nation (which we see earlier in the chp. because they turned to idolatry). It is the same in the NT, not believing who Jesus is and in what He accomplished at the cross.

I don't see sin and works as the problem. I see relationship as the problem. Staying in a close relationship with God is what keeps us from sin and if we do sin we have an Advocate, to plead our case so we should confess and repent to stay close to our Advocate. And, staying in close relationship helps us to do the works that He would have us do, so we are not running around doing our own idea of what we think He wants us to do.
I think we can agree on this part?

 

[francisdesales]

You err. God did NOT choose the Jews as a people. Are you not aware that Jews are just one of the twelve tribes of Israel?

I err?

The "Jews" are not one of the tribes of Israel.

Election is one of the mainstays of Judaism. Do you deny that?

God chose Abraham a Gentile to be set apart to become a people unto himself. He made a covenant with Abraham so that through Abraham he might bless the nations of the Earth. Now...please point out specifically where i am denying scripture.

The many numerous parts of the Bible where election does not guarantee eschatological salvation at the individual level. Certainly, God elects or predestines, but eschatological judgment is not based upon that status, but whether one actually obeyed God's law, at whatever level it was known to them. The Jew did not get special priveleges to avoid that, and neither does the Gentile Christian. This is one of the most prevalent themes in the entire Bible, OT AND NT. I could literally cite a passage from every book of the NT that states this, with the possible exception of Philemon.

 

[francisdesales]

Was God not able to break off branches from the tree? Paul seems to believe that those who DO such things will not enter the Kingdom of heaven.

Yes, some of the Jews were cut off from the tree because...
Romans 11 KJV
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

So what I see is that they were cut off because they did not believe, those in the OT where Elias prays for the nation (which we see earlier in the chp. because they turned to idolatry). It is the same in the NT, not believing who Jesus is and in what He accomplished at the cross.

I don't see sin and works as the problem. I see relationship as the problem. Staying in a close relationship with God is what keeps us from sin and if we do sin we have an Advocate, to plead our case so we should confess and repent to stay close to our Advocate. And, staying in close relationship helps us to do the works that He would have us do, so we are not running around doing our own idea of what we think He wants us to do.
I think we can agree on this part?

I agree that a relationship with God is fundamental. "Believing in what Christ did on the cross", an intellectual knowledge, is not going to be sufficient.

Regards

 

[John 8:32]

You err. God did NOT choose the Jews as a people. Are you not aware that Jews are just one of the twelve tribes of Israel?

I err?

The "Jews" are not one of the tribes of Israel.

I gotta ask what you mean by that?

 

[francisdesales]

You err. God did NOT choose the Jews as a people. Are you not aware that Jews are just one of the twelve tribes of Israel?

I err?

The "Jews" are not one of the tribes of Israel.

I gotta ask what you mean by that?

"Jew" was not one of the sons of Jacob, since Grappler wants to be nit-picky.

"Jew" is the common term refering to an adherent of Judaism, so I am not sure why Grappler attempted to incorrectly correct me about tribal names.

Regards

 

[John Zain]

A warning to all BAC ...

In the OT, God gave His chosen people EVERY advantage to be successful.

But, the problem was ...
He also gave them THE LAW, which as it turned out, was impossible for them to follow!
They had NO Holy Spirit to help them (He's called "the Helper" in the NJKV).

Note: all of this was done to PROVE to everyone that man is UNABLE to satisfy God.

HEADS UP NOW ...

Even though God knew 'twas impossible for them to follow THE LAW,
He gave it to them, and they DISOBEYED it ...
... and they were left scattered all over the desert floor. Sorry to be so graphic!

Now Paul comes along in Hebrews 3 & 4, WARNING US to not end up like these Israelites.

And then he hits us up with this ... concerning born-again Christians ...
Hebrews 10:
28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy
on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy
who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant
by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know Him who said,“Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord.
And again, “The LORD will judge His people.”
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

 

[Grappler]

You err. God did NOT choose the Jews as a people. Are you not aware that Jews are just one of the twelve tribes of Israel?

I err?

The "Jews" are not one of the tribes of Israel.

Election is one of the mainstays of Judaism. Do you deny that?

God chose Abraham a Gentile to be set apart to become a people unto himself. He made a covenant with Abraham so that through Abraham he might bless the nations of the Earth. Now...please point out specifically where i am denying scripture.

The many numerous parts of the Bible where election does not guarantee eschatological salvation at the individual level. Certainly, God elects or predestines, but eschatological judgment is not based upon that status, but whether one actually obeyed God's law, at whatever level it was known to them. The Jew did not get special priveleges to avoid that, and neither does the Gentile Christian. This is one of the most prevalent themes in the entire Bible, OT AND NT. I could literally cite a passage from every book of the NT that states this, with the possible exception of Philemon.

Yes you err. And you have decided to remain ignorant of scripture and history claiming that the Jews are not one of the twelve tribes of Israel. If you would like to learn something look up the origin of the word jew. It is derived from the word Judea. Judea is derived from the word Judah who is one of the twelve tribes of Israel. Check it out sometime it is interesting. I don't know enough about the false religion of Judaism to care about whether or not election is a mainstay.

 

[John Zain]

God did NOT choose the Jews as a people.
Are you not aware that Jews are just one of the twelve tribes of Israel?

Don't know if you have any use for DNA, but ...
http://www.texemarrs.com/042013/jews_not_descendants_of_abraham.htm

 

[francisdesales]

You err. God did NOT choose the Jews as a people. Are you not aware that Jews are just one of the twelve tribes of Israel?

I err?

The "Jews" are not one of the tribes of Israel.

Election is one of the mainstays of Judaism. Do you deny that?

God chose Abraham a Gentile to be set apart to become a people unto himself. He made a covenant with Abraham so that through Abraham he might bless the nations of the Earth. Now...please point out specifically where i am denying scripture.

The many numerous parts of the Bible where election does not guarantee eschatological salvation at the individual level. Certainly, God elects or predestines, but eschatological judgment is not based upon that status, but whether one actually obeyed God's law, at whatever level it was known to them. The Jew did not get special priveleges to avoid that, and neither does the Gentile Christian. This is one of the most prevalent themes in the entire Bible, OT AND NT. I could literally cite a passage from every book of the NT that states this, with the possible exception of Philemon.

Yes you err. And you have decided to remain ignorant of scripture and history claiming that the Jews are not one of the twelve tribes of Israel. If you would like to learn something look up the origin of the word jew. It is derived from the word Judea. Judea is derived from the word Judah who is one of the twelve tribes of Israel. Check it out sometime it is interesting. I don't know enough about the false religion of Judaism to care about whether or not election is a mainstay.

Sorry, "Jew" is not one of the sons of Jacob.

The term "Jew" stems from the name of the Southern Kingdom, and once the Northern kingdom, Israel, fell, it was applied to anyone who worshiped per Judaism, since the Southern Kingdom was all that was left of the Promised Land occupied by God's People.

An example is in Esther 2:5-6, where we find that the name "Jew" is given to a man from the tribe of Benjamin: "There was a man a Yehudi (Judean/Jewish man) in Shushan the capital, whose name was Mordecai the son of Jair the son of Shimei the son of Kish, a Benjamite.

Of course, I see this as nit-picking and I am not going to say another word about it.

The fact remains that the people who trace their ancestry to Jacob (good enough???), whom are callled "Jews" in the bible without ignoring the scattered tribes of Israel, were well aware of their election to the People of God. NOTHING that they did earned this election. The rite of circumcision was the sign of the covenant as part of His people.

The point is that THIS election did not guarantee them eschatological salvation - as Paul also states regarding OUR predestination/election. Nor does OUR being grafted ONTO that SAME TREE (false religion? Yea, you don't know much about it...) mean we will be judged any differently or with favoritism. Those who do not do the will of the Father, whether gentile or jew, shall not enter the Kingdom.

The New Covenant opened the POTENTIAL of heaven to ALL men, not just Jewish people. God will still judge people based upon what they did in this world. God is not changing what pleases Him. Unless you think the God of the Bible is like Allah, who changes right and wrong at his whim.

And so those who do not persevere until the end, as Jesus states, will be lost. The Bible makes this crystal-clear in virtually every book of the NT. Hang your hat on one verse, if you so choose, and ignore the rest of the Bible at your own peril.

Regards

 

[John Zain]

And so those who do not persevere until the end, as Jesus states, will be lost.
The Bible makes this crystal-clear in virtually every book of the NT.

Is it against the rules to put someone on the spot?
I'll risk it ...

What percentage of those born from above would you guess the Holy Spirit
is successful in ... leading to persevere to the end unto salvation?

 

[francisdesales]

And so those who do not persevere until the end, as Jesus states, will be lost.
The Bible makes this crystal-clear in virtually every book of the NT.

Is it against the rules to put someone on the spot?
I'll risk it ...

What percentage of those born from above would you guess the Holy Spirit
is successful in ... leading to persevere to the end unto salvation?

I couldn't hazard a guess - but Jesus said that the road is narrow (forget about the easy one-moment 'I believe' road...) to heaven and the road to perdition is wide - easy. The parable of the sower indicates 4 different paths, and only one seems to lead to fruit leading to heaven, so I would say less than half?

But perhaps at the end, God will let everyone into heaven except for a few. Who can say on such matters?

Regards